Please just... Just change Living Dead

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Theres a lot of reasons that set current hp to 1 feauture of superbolide got removed. There were cases were it could kill you in very specific and unlucky scenarios. The original request for the change comes from the OP not wanting to take the time out of their day to explain to a healer what living dead does. Just save a google doc or .txt file with a copy paste of the explanation its not that hard bro.

I apologize for coming off dissmissive but the amount of belly aching about dark knight in dungeons is getting ridiculous. the class is great at blasting down big pulls fast, living dead is really good between levels 50 and 69 because you dont have tbn and may struggle to stay alive if your party has bad dps and or healer/s. The idea that dark knight is "squishy" is just not true. You just cant turn your brain off like with warrior.

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I remember in ShB when GNB came out the superbolide had a 1 second delay after pressing it. Had ot plan it ahead of time during pulls otherwise once pressed you can die. Was kind of funny for those who used it at teh wrong time

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

The original request for the change comes from the OP not wanting to take the time out of their day to explain to a healer what living dead does. Just save a google doc or .txt file with a copy paste of the explanation its not that hard bro.

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I really don't mean to be offensive or rude, i'm really curious, is it sarcasm or genuine suggestion?
The fact that people have to pull out a google doc like a meme is really funny to me. I mean i just always assume people read the chat and understand what don't heal me before i reach 1 HP, i won't die means, of course 90% of the time i'm proven wrong but i guess i'm not thinking right, it reminds me the famous insanity quote.

Of course most dungeons don't even require the use of Living Dead, the only dungeons i can remember where i can make use of it easily are Hullbreaker Isle and Mount Gulg, maybe Holminster Switch too.

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Originally Posted by ShionAsrai

I really don't mean to be offensive or rude, i'm really curious, is it sarcasm or genuine suggestion?
The fact that people have to pull out a google doc like a meme is really funny to me. I mean i just always assume people read the chat and understand what don't heal me before i reach 1 HP, i won't die means, of course 90% of the time i'm proven wrong but i guess i'm not thinking right, it reminds me the famous insanity quote.

Of course most dungeons don't even require the use of Living Dead, the only dungeons i can remember where i can make use of it easily are Hullbreaker Isle and Mount Gulg, maybe Holminster Switch too.

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It's a genuine suggestion if you dont want to type during dungeons. Any dungeon run with a competent healer shouldn't even require you to use living dead so if you want to use it for funnies then all were saying is ask the healer to let you. The job shouldn't be made worse overall to facilitate not wanting to chat in an mmo

I get wanting the power trip of getting stabbed to 1 hp by many foes only to life drain back to full like a savage just communicate that desire and you're good.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Any dungeon run with a competent healer shouldn't even require you to use living dead…

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This. Living Dead is super fun to use, but unless your healer is badly off their game or actually dead, you don’t need it. If you try to get it to proc and the healer doesn’t let you drop to 1 HP, congratulations, you lived. The only exception is if you’ve really bitten off more than you can chew and taken a pull your healer thought they could handle but in fact couldn’t, and ran themselves out of resources trying, in which case … wipe and come back with a smaller pull. It’s a pretty uncommon occurrence and it shouldn’t get repeated much because it’s a big learning experience.

The other problem with living dead which is why I tend to not let it proc and because I’m confident I can keep the person alive without activating it is the fact that tanks using LD often panic and press it alongside half their mitigation kit so often they make themselves tanky enough that they risk it ending just before if procs meaning they are now on 5% HP with zero mitigation

I’d rather just use the shield healers natural heal layering to keep them in a decent range than risk of dropping off at the worst time because they panicked and dumped it out with half their mitigation

And that’s fine, I triaged the situation and the tank lived, is that not the essence of how interaction works in an MMO

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

It's a genuine suggestion if you dont want to type during dungeons. The job shouldn't be made worse overall to facilitate not wanting to chat in an mmo

I get wanting the power trip of getting stabbed to 1 hp by many foes only to life drain back to full like a savage just communicate that desire and you're good.

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The suggestion doesn't make the job worse, it's aimed at improving it as healers LOVE to grief the whole thing.
The fact that people ignore the chat 90% of the time makes suggesting communicating null, i have a macro for it and even then the healer will play blind. An ability that requires another player to NOT interact with the tank should negate the interaction to begin with, this is the logical problem with the first phase of it.

Besides, it's an ability of Dark Knight and the idea is to get close to dying, who's going on a power trip here really if they're not DPSing while the invulnerability is being used? Are healers the green DPS as this community constantly says or are healers just simply healers?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The other problem with living dead which is why I tend to not let it proc and because I’m confident I can keep the person alive without activating it is the fact that tanks using LD often panic and press it alongside half their mitigation kit

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Assuming this is what happened then you're free to do as required obviously, this isn't what's being discussed.

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This topic is being derailed, the entire problem being discussed is the healers not letting it ever pop, you want your job be more than just 15 buttons of heals? then let the Dark Knight use their invulnerability, does it HAVE to be an invulnerability without a requirement for healers to stop healing during invulnerability, what is hard to understand here?

Again just to clarify what's NOT being talked in here, it's obviously expected to heal if the tank is using invulnerability with their mitigations or if it's a small pull. That's simply the tank being bad, not the case of healer not paying attention or actively griefing it.

The whole idea is to pull a huge pack which is rare in dungeons to progress a little faster and use the invulnerability and maybe hope that the healer doesn't try to heal through it, killing a big part of that swarm of enemies by the time invulnerability runs out and then start healing.

Assuming this suggestion for an improvement goes through, thanks to patch 7.1 the healer doesn't need to stress themselves about the Dark Knight dying right after the first phase runs out as Abyssal Drain healing potency was increased already and Living Dead effects apply earlier, it's insane that even the healer mains started telling their life story over a suggestion for an invulnerability that has 290 seconds of down time, don't worry, this doesn't change a thing about your role, you will just be damaging more. I don't want to start maining Warrior and bore the healer out of existence, other option is Paladin.
No it doesn't change the identity of the ability, just saying it before this claim comes here too, it's called Living Dead, it would be doing what it's supposed to.

It’s not derailing the thread to say “at least as often as not the healer has actively triaged the situation and declared internally that living dead isn’t worth risking” while you are over here thinking the healers are coordinating meeting to grief DRK’s intentionally

This is a cooperative game, you press the button as a tank that requires interaction from the healer, I at the time determine living dead to be a button I’m not willing to risk and something I don’t need to account for in my mit plan so I ignore it. Just as even if the person has no idea what living dead is and how it works they have triaged the situation and determined they need to keep you alive, is it the optimal decision? Not in that case, but it’s an interplay decision that gives agency to different people. This is literally how a cooperative MMO works

Living dead as a button isn’t necessary outside of savage, if you want to have a big MC moment without anyone else’s intervention then play one of the tanks with a true invuln, false invulns are always going to be treated slightly different

Omg bruh the healer isn't greifing by doing their job and healing you. If you cant adapt to not being able to use unnecessary invulnerability buttons in casual content where its not needed then you need to realize that mmos arent for you. If the healer isn't paying attention to chat stop and make them. Your the tank, you control the flow of the dungeon. Grow some extra skin. Communicate or accept you wont need to press living dead. This is asking for so much nonsense.

Worst part is im certain you think you are 100% correct that healers healing is grief because you wanna press ld.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Omg bruh the healer isn't greifing by doing their job and healing you. If you cant adapt to not being able to use unnecessary invulnerability buttons in casual content where its not needed then you need to realize that mmos arent for you. If the healer isn't paying attention to chat stop and make them. Your the tank, you control the flow of the dungeon. Grow some extra skin. Communicate or accept you wont need to press living dead. This is asking for so much nonsense.

Worst part is im certain you think you are 100% correct that healers healing is grief because you wanna press ld.

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Yeah I never get this either.

If anything the actual complaint should be that the other three invuls have no feedback machism (games and all, feedback systems like we learned in game design classes!) to indicate that you used them but didn't need them. Living Dead does (at least to a degree), so in a way it's the only well-designed invulnerability skill.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s not derailing the thread to say “at least as often as not the healer has actively triaged the situation and declared internally that living dead isn’t worth risking” while you are over here thinking the healers are coordinating meeting to grief DRK’s intentionally
This is a cooperative game, you press the button as a tank that requires interaction from the healer, I at the time determine living dead to be a button I’m not willing to risk and something I don’t need to account for in my mit plan so I ignore it. Just as even if the person has no idea what living dead is and how it works they have triaged the situation and determined they need to keep you alive, is it the optimal decision? Not in that case, but it’s an interplay decision that gives agency to different people. This is literally how a cooperative MMO works
Living dead as a button isn’t necessary outside of savage, if you want to have a big MC moment without anyone else’s intervention then play one of the tanks with a true invuln, false invulns are always going to be treated slightly different

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It is derailing to say the tank used too much mitigation, i decided to heal them because they won't die in time or make illogical claims such as MAAAAAAAAAAN IT'S AN MC SYNDROME when the topic is about an improvement for the ability to work as it was intended from beginning.
I just only see certain healers griefing on purpose while most are oblivious to how the ability works which is exactly what i stated and why i agreed for improvement and as such i don't see where you got the idea i think EVERY HEALER is griefing it in unison.

Except Living Dead doesn't require a healer's cooperation, it requires the opposite. This isn't some main character syndrome and if it were to be then we would be talking about the healers who heals instead of doing some damage, it's not hard to start pressing your DPS buttons instead of the heal buttons, the tank will be fine.

Assuming Living Dead is truly useless outside of raids then i find the healer useless just as much outside of raids as i can stay alive without them and keep the whole team alive the same if i'm playing as a Warrior. In fact seeing as some raids can be completed without a healer i would go as far as to say they are truly useless. Of course this i say only as a counterpoint, not as what i think unlike some of the points that are being made for the sake of arguing and not improving.

Not to hurt your feelings but i really doubt you'll be keeping a Dark Knight alive on a Hullbreaker Isle full pull at the start or Mt. Gulg full pull after the Forgiven Whimsy boss fight if you're not letting them make use of the Living Dead and keep wasting the instant cast heals assuming they didn't use their mitigations, assuming you did then it's definitely not happening consistently, which is again why i agreed on the improvement for this ability as the average player in this game can't pay enough attention unfortunately to see the Living Dead buff.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Omg bruh the healer isn't greifing by doing their job and healing you. If you cant adapt to not being able to use unnecessary invulnerability buttons in casual content where its not needed then you need to realize that mmos arent for you. If the healer isn't paying attention to chat stop and make them. Your the tank, you control the flow of the dungeon. Grow some extra skin. Communicate or accept you wont need to press living dead. This is asking for so much nonsense.

Worst part is im certain you think you are 100% correct that healers healing is grief because you wanna press ld.

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You're mistaken on your beliefs about me and i really don't understand what gave you such an idea, perhaps it's the fact that i said you don't need to waste your heals on huge packs of pulls when the tank has invulnerability that made you start thinking that i think healers healing is griefing which is the most weirdest claim i've ever heard be it if it came from me or if it came from you as a claim of what i would think.

When i say griefing i strictly talk about certain healers who heal on Living Dead and NOT HEAL when the ability is wearing off which has happened enough times already.

This might come as a shock but trust me, it's not the tank that's controlling the flow of the duty aside from pulling enemies, now to your suggestion of growing some skin i would ask that you grow some cells and read what i exactly said and meant because there's no hidden meanings there.



With these being said, i think i'll start maining warrior and take myself out of here as even if my healer is bad or griefing on purpose i won't be the person dealing with it. See you guys on the posts about Warrior having too much heals and that playing healer is getting boring.

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Originally Posted by ShionAsrai

You're mistaken on your beliefs about me and i really don't understand what gave you such an idea, perhaps it's the fact that i said you don't need to waste your heals on huge packs of pulls when the tank has invulnerability that made you start thinking that i think healers healing is griefing which is the most weirdest claim i've ever heard be it if it came from me or if it came from you as a claim of what i would think.

When i say griefing i strictly talk about certain healers who heal on Living Dead and NOT HEAL when the ability is wearing off which has happened enough times already.

This might come as a shock but trust me, it's not the tank that's controlling the flow of the duty aside from pulling enemies, now to your suggestion of growing some skin i would ask that you grow some cells and read what i exactly said and meant because there's no hidden meanings there.



With these being said, i think i'll start maining warrior and take myself out of here as even if my healer is bad or griefing on purpose i won't be the person dealing with it. See you guys on the posts about Warrior having too much heals and that playing healer is getting boring.

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Your point has literally zero consistency. Living dead is a triage situation between the healer and the tank, sometimes the tank gets the timing wrong, sometimes the healer is an idiot……..okay I mean that’s literally how an MMO works, the tank and healer have to cooperate with each other and the “solution” to change LD just exists so that the tank can have their “moment” regardless of the healer.

Think about it this way, i recite excog you then you push living dead with this proposed “solution”, you just zeroed out my critcog. Did you not rob me of my ability to have my moment because you wanted to have yours? Tanking and healing is a conversation and it doesn’t always go flawlessly. The ability isn’t “not working as intended” because a healer didn’t understand what it was and ignored it. That’s an inexperienced healer doing what they think is right. That’s the point of cooperation, sometimes things go wrong because you someone else did something wrong

It speaks a lot that your point drifts to “guess I will just play WAR so I can do whatever I want regardless of your input” and somehow frame that as a failing of healers

Also just a note for the other post on the other post, emboldening random phrases and words isn’t “improving clarity”. Emboldening “it’s bringing the ability closer to its original purpose” doesn’t make it more true because it’s bold

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Your point has literally zero consistency. Living dead is a triage situation between the healer and the tank

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How is it any more so than spamming heals on a HP-capped Paladin under Hallowed Ground, though? And, yes, I do mean HP-capped, as unless you prevent the DRK from triggering Walking Dead, they would heal themselves to full anyways, so the party healing wasted is nigh identical. (Only the portion after triggering WD and then losing health again could the healer actually support.)

Put that in the context of any other invuln. "Don't worry, I can heal you through it without your Superbolide that you already popped, so I'll continue healing unnecessarily." Except, now... there's an actual punishment for doing so. It's far worse than merely wasting an opportunity.

That a tank hits too many other defensives at the same time for it to likely proc even if you, the healer, provided absolutely no further sustain is a reason to ignore it, sure, but the mere fact that you can heal through it is not a reason to do so.


Moreover, returning to the more core subject... if only one singular invuln can be screwed over in that way, isn't that a reason to either change it or reduce the leniency of the others in similar fashion?

Not saying it needs to be whatever has been suggested here (I'd be plenty happy with just a big doom timer hanging graphically over the DRK if anything more would be too homogenizing), but it is an issue unique to Warrior (not that it ever lacks for sustain in those same circumstances anyways) and (to a much greater degree) DRK, with it being especially clunky for the latter.

I've had quite a few times now, usually when a DPS d/cs at start so pulls go long or the healer can't be bothered to AoE and the DPS aren't doing well either, that I've eventually needed to schedule in an LD to survive, used a macro saying as much beforehand, and even popped a sound effect on activation... only to have the healer just barely ensure it can't go off so I die and curse me out afterwards for so much as suggesting they might glance at their text-bubbles at least on occasion ('no in-game graphic, not my problem') or at least actually heal enough to keep one alive after preventing their target's sustain.

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Originally Posted by ShionAsrai

The whole idea is to pull a huge pack which is rare in dungeons

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No, it's... definitely the norm. The last time I saw less than a wall-to-wall in a daily roulette outside of the absurdly long hallway on Anyder was... Stormblood, maybe?

And you'd probably see invulns there more often if things weren't dead before you'd use even half whatever kit wouldn't be available by its part in the next W2W pull.

I mean at its core it’s not if you break it down to what living dead will do IF it procs, but just because healing is theoretically a waste when the skill does go off correctly doesn’t mean the skill is poorly designed or needs changing. In the example of using heals in a way to stop the skill from going off that is poor triaging on the healers part (or the healer is an idiot) but that doesn’t change the skill itself.

I don’t buy into the whole “why is one the outlier” because that’s been the death keel of every piece of unique design this game has ever had.

People will always have some amount of bad experiences when a skill you use can be affected by other people, I don’t think that’s in any way a reason to change the skill (other than maybe make it clearer what it does but the playerbase can’t even use their own skills in the bottom tier so I don’t think that will fix it for the 1 in a million players everyone “remembers” ruining their LD proc 4 years ago)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

just because healing is theoretically a waste when the skill does go off correctly doesn’t mean the skill is poorly designed or needs changing

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That hasn't been the complaint, though.

It's that, unlike other invulns, it can waste the healers' healing AND waste the DRK's self-bene AND waste 10s of death-immunity.

It's uniquely a skill that would, while active, often actually work better if the healer briefly ceased to exist.

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for the 1 in a million players everyone “remembers” ruining their LD proc 4 years ago

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I mean, I know some players can't get enough of reminding us that the forums aren't perfectly representative, but if "everyone" remembers this happening, it's probably more than 1 in a million.

Meanwhile, the most recent occurrence for me was... two days ago. Twice more just within the recent slew of DDOSes.

And that’s the thing, I don’t think it’s wrong that a skill punishes you for using it wrong, that’s like 90% of the reason I play SCH. And on a tank or a healer I don’t mind if your support partner using a skill wrong punishes you. That’s part of a cooperative MMO

It’s the same argument as energy drain, it’s not the incorrect odd one out, it’s arguably the only good and well designed one because it encourages interplay. Hallowed ground is “thematic” but damn it’s a boring as hell button if you care about interaction

And I mean everyone can remember er someone messing up every class. I’ve had 3 messed up uses of hallowed in the last 5 days, should we change hallowed

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And that’s the thing, I don’t think it’s wrong that a skill punishes you for using it wrong

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Okay, but this is not (just) that. It punishes you for someone else reacting to your skill wrongly.

When you use Energy Drain, that ED isn't wasted by your cohealer likewise using ED when you two would need that AF for healing something without a GCD heal (which is the only way to react with a "wrong" decision); you still get the full benefit, even if it's less for the team overall than had your cohealer not overspent AF in turn.

This is not that.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Okay, but this is not (just) that. It punishes you for someone else reacting to your skill wrongly.

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But it... doesn't punish you? ������

Like that's the whole point, either way you survived.

Unless you want to argue that LD is insanely OP because it can, in theory, be just about 20s of death protection and hence it should work the way that Walking Dead only lasts as long as the remaining duration on living dead was? Because if yes, sure, make it so that you can't be healed while LD is up. I'd agree then.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

But it... doesn't punish you? ������

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It literally does, though?

Imagine, for instance, if Excog once again only went off if you drop below 50% hp and only had a far briefer duration in which to go off.

You place Excog on a target whose HP is, with no other changes, certain to drop below 50% hp within that time. You spent an Recitation and AF, totaling a 60s, 45s, and a third of a 60s CD, for that purpose. It's worth 1200cp.

Now, once you've placed it, your cohealer prevents it from going off, thereby wasting the 1200 cp via the 60, 45, and a third of a 60s CD.

That would be the equivalent of Living Dead, except that one wastes 7500cp via a 5-minute cooldown AND 10s of unkillability.

You could say the Excog "wasn't wasted" or that others' later actions "didn't punish" the first healer's simply because the target ultimately survived regardless, but that'd make no more sense than spamming heals on a topped-off target and saying that such "wasn't wasteful because the target survived". Moreover, that's 2 GCDs of healing wasted atop a would-be Energy Drain itself. You could likewise call that Excog a "non-healing button" and act baffled that anyone expected it to actually heal, but that is objectively having one's action completely nullified (not just incidentally devalued) by others' actions.

And what happened to Excog? It was changed to give the heal eventually even if the recipient didn't drop below 50% hp, changing it from being entirely wasted by others' actions to only wasting whatever portion overhealed. Why should we think it absurd that anyone would want the same for their invuln, of all things?

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Unless you want to argue that LD is insanely OP because it can, in theory, be just about 20s of death protection and hence it should work the way that Walking Dead only lasts as long as the remaining duration on living dead was? Because if yes, sure, make it so that you can't be healed while LD is up. I'd agree then.

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It's 1 hit + 10s of death prevention, though, not 20s. As soon as it's actually provides even a single hp of relative mitigation (via waste of overkill portion), you're down to 10s left, and that ability to nullify damage in that way is rapidly wasted by the self-heal-per-GCD to follow.

Though, yes, I'd be fine with it just having straight 10s of death prevention and then giving 10s of lifesteal upon that first would-be death if it happens at all, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That would be the equivalent of Living Dead, except that one wastes 7500cp via a 5-minute cooldown AND 10s of unkillability.

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Hold on, you are now telling me that the parts of Living Dead that are entirely a beneficial uniqueness compared to the actual reason you press the invuln (to, eh, not die?!) are unfair because they might not happen 100% of the time?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And what happened to Excog? It was changed to give the heal eventually even if the recipient didn't drop below 50% hp, changing it from being entirely wasted by others' actions to only wasting whatever portion overhealed. Why should we think it absurd that anyone would want the same for their invuln, of all things?

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The invuln already doesn't waste. That's kinda the counterargument against asking for a change here, that LD fulfills its function independent of whether you got healed or "died". So all such a change would do is marginally pad the DRK's healing stats (since it ensures the self-healing happens every time) but for a loss of 1s-10s of effective death protection window. And maybe even the self-healing anyways, homogenization and all, and/or getting a significantly longer CD Paladin-style.

Your sentences goes even further as a counterargument to changes, because it shows a poetic symmetry:

- A healer has an ability that guarantees the healing, but not the protective value of the heal triggering automatically (it might just not save the target).
- A tank has an ability that guarantees the protective nature (you won't die in the next 10s, no matter what), but not the self-healing the ability can sometimes provide.

(edit)
I should make clear, my issue in this particular case is not the desire for homogenization (as annoying a trend in the community as that is) but the weird assumption that LD isn't "just" an invulnerability-button that ensures you do not die for at least 10 seconds. Which it does. It absolutely does. It does what you press it for. And it's so refreshing to actually see an ability squeeze so much uniqueness (doesn't even have to proc, in return a potential 1s-10s extra protection window, strong self-heal if actually needed, cool interaction with the party) while still keeping the exact same "I won't die in the next 10s" as the other tanks have.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Hold on, you are now telling me that the parts of Living Dead that are entirely a beneficial uniqueness compared to the actual reason you press the invuln (to, eh, not die?!) are unfair because they might not happen 100% of the time?

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Benefit is best considered in net, not just its ideal case. See RNG mitigation.

Even at its best, though, LD's only source of mitigation is identical to that of Holmgang -- wasting would-be overkill. It can add to that a 7500p self-heal (equivalent to 5770p of healer healing), but both the mitigation and the self-heal occur only if it pops. Else, it does nothing.

And again, LD is not a 20s death prevention. It's 1 hit + 10s, wherein the first 10s leading up to that 1 hit are damn near irrelevant for the simple fact that every potentially threatening thing in this game is telegraphed. Its value, then, becomes merely that you can trim up to 9s out of 300s off its cooldown (negligible) and can double-weave other actions even in the moment just before you'd need the invuln because you slightly pre-popped it (QoL). Not 20s of invuln. Not even close. If you're not getting that self-heal, it is worse than Holmgang or Superbolide for the simple fact that it has a 51-60s longer CD than the first and less sustain typically generated than the latter for any situation that'd actually call for an invuln.

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The invuln already doesn't waste.

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By comparison to most other invulns, an LD that never goes off is a waste, for the simple fact that most invulns are not just death-prevention now. Hell, they haven't been since ARR. Hallowed Ground and Holmgang both were not used only for emergencies to prevent a death; they were means of milking additional sustain.

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That's kinda the counterargument against asking for a change here, that LD fulfills its function independent of whether you got healed or "died".

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Then Hallowed Ground would "fulfill its function" even without a single point of mitigation, just from the fact that one 'needn't fear death' for 10s. And yet, again, that's not been the whole of its role since release.

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the weird assumption that LD isn't "just" an invulnerability-button that ensures you do not die for at least 10 seconds. Which it does. It absolutely does.

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To assume that LD, which can do a hell of a lot more than just preventing death and which deserves parity against other skills (or consequent kits of jobs with an invuln) that each do a hell of a lot more than just preventing death is not a "weird assumption". That it prevents death for 10s in a game where there is zero chance of a freak sudden untelegraphed death does not put it on par with things that give actual throughput atop said prevention of death for 10s or have a shorter cooldown.

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It does what you press it for.

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Like any other modern invuln, I press it for the total sustain it can provide. Of those, only one other (Holmgang) can be remotely screwed over, and not half so badly as LD (merely wasting the mit rather than also the full self-heal).

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And it's so refreshing to actually see an ability squeeze so much uniqueness

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What uniqueness beyond its ability to get screwed to uniquely great extent in exchange for being pre-poppable to negligible or zero benefit? The rest is just Holmgang with (an empowered) Divine Magic Mastery II granted for 10s.

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Your sentences goes even further as a counterargument to changes, because it shows a poetic symmetry:

- A healer has an ability that guarantees the healing, but not the protective value of the heal triggering automatically (it might just not save the target).
- A tank has an ability that guarantees the protective nature (you won't die in the next 10s, no matter what), but not the self-healing the ability can sometimes provide.

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There is no "poetic symmetry" to that because there is no "protective value/nature" separate from sustain except where the sustain required is unknowable, which is never the case in this game. There aren't even any random blows dealing half a tank's life, let alone random one-shots.

A heal like ExCog going off under 50% health is not inherently "protective" or death-preventing; it's just a way to front-load a heal from one Aetherflow cycle into the next.

An invuln meanwhile, like any other defensive, serves no purpose unless it provides actual sustain -- be that in the form of mit [max and current HP increase, barrier, or %DR] or healing [percentile like Macrocosmos, target-health-based, or SP-based/flat]. Preventing all incoming damage once already at 1 hp via Holmgang or WD's death-prevention is sustain. If it doesn't actually manage that, though, the invuln was wasted; mere 10s of peace of mind (collapsible with the auto-attack immediately after) is not an effective use of an invuln, and parity should not be judged according to each skill's least effective use.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

An invuln meanwhile, like any other defensive, serves no purpose unless it provides actual sustain -- be that in the form of mit [max and current HP increase, barrier, or %DR] or healing [percentile like Macrocosmos, target-health-based, or SP-based/flat]. Preventing all incoming damage once already at 1 hp via Holmgang or WD's death-prevention is sustain. If it doesn't actually manage that, though, the invuln was wasted; mere 10s of peace of mind (collapsible with the auto-attack immediately after) is not an effective use of an invuln, and parity should not be judged according to each skill's least effective use.

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And yet here you are, not actually wanting Hallowed Ground and Superbollide to be changed to block incoming shielding, lest their sustain is wasted.

It's a weird argument, isn't it? Why is it a waste if LD doesn't get to provide you 0-5 GCDs worth of healing and if you "never die", yet somehow the other tank invulns aren't a problem if external sources cause you to not actually mitigate or mitigate much with them (WHM AoE Stun spam, shields, big burst killing the mob group too quick, anything really).

Because, and yeah sure, maybe this ought to be a universal thing? If you press your invuln, you are guaranteed to get the maximum sustain it could have provided no matter what? But then how would that work? After all, a healer would rightfully be annoyed if a DRK griefing by pressing their LD mid-ability blocks their big 3m CD benediction. Would heals "slide off" to other targets? What if none exist? Would CDs be refunded? Should invulns refund their CDs based on how much damage you took vs how much you could have? Like, only take 30% of your HP as damage during your 10s invuln -> get 70% CD back?

... now that I think about the last one sounds kinda interesting as an idea, especially if it also applies to healing and damage CDs if they overheal or overkill.

(edit)
How universal is your view on this, btw? Like, Shadowed Vigil is guaranteed to provide its big burst heal as it works exactly like Excog, right?
But, if healers keep you up enough to never drop below 16%, that 20% HP-increase from Great Nebula on poor GNB did nothing, right? How would that be changed to ensure it isn't, well, wasted mitigation? And if not, how is that not wasted optional sustain but LD's self-healing is? And don't get me wrong, if applied universally I can see the point behind your argument, but that'd be a lot of cases of "potentially wasted bonus sustain/mitigation" to cover.

That is a point with the supposed success condition of an invuln being that you must 'die', I don't see it as griefing to use my benediction when I'm not in control of someone's HP and it is logical if a tank can see their HP isn't under control to invuln so I don't see that as griefing either, if both buttons are pressed at the same time for the same reason who is in the wrong?

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Originally Posted by Carighan

And yet here you are, not actually wanting Hallowed Ground and Superbollide to be changed to block incoming shielding, lest their sustain is wasted.

It's a weird argument, isn't it? Why is it a waste if LD doesn't get to provide you 0-5 GCDs worth of healing and if you "never die".

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Again, it's the difference between a sustain tool having some waste due to overcapping (such as a heal upon heal) vs. having conditionally zero contribution (such as a would-be heal being prevented from going off).

Everything else that behaved similarly has been changed for good reason.

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If you press your invuln, you are guaranteed to get the maximum sustain it could have provided no matter what?

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Jesus, this is like your third strawman already.

Not "guaranteed maximum", but merely offering control or visual intelligibility as not to have even its chance at any throughput prevented.

That could be the DRK being able to activate WD on its own any time during LD's (the pre-activation period's) duration. That could be it at least granting the self-heal effect at the end of LD. That could be a mere skull and doom timer appearing above the DRK during LD and, recolored, during WD. Whatever.

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After all, a healer would rightfully be annoyed if a DRK griefing by pressing their LD mid-ability blocks their big 3m CD benediction.

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Not my idea. Nothing to do with me. So why the hell is this a response to me? Wrong. Poster.

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Should invulns refund their CDs based on how much damage you took vs how much you could have?

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No. Merely like the changes to ExCog, skills shouldn't have even their potential value (e.g., whatever portion wouldn't be overhealing or mitigation duration spent on non-combat) completely prevented by others' actions beyond the normal being PKed by some encounter mechanic.

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... now that I think about the last one sounds kinda interesting as an idea

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Cool. Still has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

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Like, Shadowed Vigil is guaranteed to provide its big burst heal as it works exactly like Excog, right?

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That's not merely my "view"; it's literally how the skill works. It's how everything except LD works.

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But, if healers keep you up enough to never drop below 16%, that 20% HP-increase from Great Nebula on poor GNB did nothing, right?

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No, that's not how Great Nebula works. The bonus is a ToB, both increasing max eHP by 20% (in total, 100%, given the 40% DR atop it) AND a 20% of maximum health heal (worth ~42% of normal max eHP) regardless.

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And if not, how is that not wasted optional sustain but LD's self-healing is?

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Because both Great Nebula and Shadowed Vigil literally cannot have their healing effect prevented from going off, while LD's can be. What is confusing about this?

The first can only go to waste by overhealing, and the second cannot go to waste from anything other than receiving zero would-be damage over its whole duration. The third can be made to absolutely nothing.

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And don't get me wrong, if applied universally

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The only thing missing from a universal application is LD; the rest of the constraints are your head-canon and nothing to do with what I've said.

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a lot of cases of "potentially wasted bonus sustain/mitigation"

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No, it's one. Literally just one. Everything else follows the same norm: you can overcap [healing], fail to use up [bonus health / barriers] before their duration ends, and can happen to take little would-be damage during a [%DR]; since the ExCog change soon after its release (with everything since, except LD, in keeping with that change) nothing else is prevented from having any of its effects by which one even could get value out of the skill from going off.

It is the same with TBN. They should finally change it so that the shield breaks after the timer expires. It happens so often that the shield just doesnt break and i lose 1 edge.....

Tbh, I'm more fine with TBN than LD. TBN at least has only 60% to 62.5% the cooldown of its analogous skills (the 24-25s "on-demands") without that constraint. LD has 125% its nearest CD without its constraint. (Without that self-heal, which requires the constraint, LD has only Holmgang's effect but with an additional healing cost AND a 25% longer CD.)

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

It is the same with TBN. They should finally change it so that the shield breaks after the timer expires. It happens so often that the shield just doesnt break and i lose 1 edge.....

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That speaks to a different problem whereby HP scaling is already absurd and damage in dungeons and normal trials/raids has been left behind. Friend of mine who mains DRK tends to throw their TBN at healers because it still pops that way. I think the cheapest (and thus most likely) way the devs could fix it is to just extend the duration to 10 or 15 seconds with a trait. I would like to see it implode if it doesn't break doing damage to everyone and everything within 5-8y (DRK included) for damage proportionate to the amount of shield left.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

That speaks to a different problem whereby HP scaling is already absurd and damage in dungeons and normal trials/raids has been left behind. Friend of mine who mains DRK tends to throw their TBN at healers because it still pops that way. I think the cheapest (and thus most likely) way the devs could fix it is to just extend the duration to 10 or 15 seconds with a trait. I would like to see it implode if it doesn't break doing damage to everyone and everything within 5-8y (DRK included) for damage proportionate to the amount of shield left.

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That is what i do, too. Either not use it or throw it at a squishy to be certain it pops. I just brought this up because it fits the "you dont get guaranteed value" discussion and i know that tbn has lot of complainers, too.
It is not really comparable to LD because just cooldown and value are way too different but i wish they would change tbn a bit.
Just what you suggested would be cool, too. Something that happens when it doesnt break, so you still get "something" at least and dont feel like you wasted it completely.

LD does need a macro. I'm forever over healing before I see the icon. I've done it just now in puppets bunker. But you need to learn to communicate.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

LD does need a macro. I'm forever over healing before I see the icon. I've done it just now in puppets bunker. But you need to learn to communicate.

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I mean maybe just an obvious visual effect (that isn't turned off via the spell detail settings, but IMO none of the invulns should be affected by that and should have persistent effects while they're ongoing?) would go a long way to alleviate everyone's issues, right? Because then it'd be obvious that the DRK has turned on Living Dad (or the Paladin HG, or whatever).

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean maybe just an obvious visual effect (that isn't turned off via the spell detail settings, but IMO none of the invulns should be affected by that and should have persistent effects while they're ongoing?) would go a long way to alleviate everyone's issues, right? Because then it'd be obvious that the DRK has turned on Living Dad (or the Paladin HG, or whatever).

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While that's a good idea on paper, I can see the problem in Alliance Raids in particular where even the most obvious effect under normal circumstances is drowned out by the noise 8-24 effects going off plus bosses (looking at you San d'Oria third boss), not to mention if the boss is between you and the tank it might well be hard to see anyway. Not that I have a better answer to the problem, maybe use the notification system or something? Add a line of code to the invulns 'when pressed, notify party', it'd be really obnoxious and I'd want an off switch but baring inability to read... Nevermind, I've seen too many failed reading checks.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

While that's a good idea on paper, I can see the problem in Alliance Raids in particular where even the most obvious effect under normal circumstances is drowned out by the noise 8-24 effects going off plus bosses (looking at you San d'Oria third boss), not to mention if the boss is between you and the tank it might well be hard to see anyway. Not that I have a better answer to the problem, maybe use the notification system or something? Add a line of code to the invulns 'when pressed, notify party', it'd be really obnoxious and I'd want an off switch but baring inability to read... Nevermind, I've seen too many failed reading checks.

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But in particular in those fights everyone has other's effects turned off, no?

I mean on top of that they could turn the HP bar granite or steel or something? Like many non-MMOs do when an enemy is temporarily invulnerable? Ah anyways, implementation detail.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

But in particular in those fights everyone has other's effects turned off, no?

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Most people probably do, I'm just one of those insane people who has all effects on because it looked wrong when I switched them off. I still do alright though.

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I mean on top of that they could turn the HP bar granite or steel or something? Like many non-MMOs do when an enemy is temporarily invulnerable? Ah anyways, implementation detail.

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This could work though as long as people pay attention.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

This could work though as long as people pay attention.

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And that is the main problem, as long as players don't pay attention, anything short of Yoshi-P himself going to people's houses and clocking them in their ears will be meaningless, on the other hand, if they DO pay attention game is just fine the way it is now...