They forgot Ranged Physical is a role in the game

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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Tanks and melee jobs are physically unable to get their rotation off if they are forced out of range from the boss. That's a fundamental distinction between melee and ranged. It's also the reason why the 2/2/2/2 format exists. Otherwise players can and will run an all ranged comp.

I'm all in favor of fairness, but I'm not going to let you push the boundaries either. I don't support triple or quadruple ranged comps. That should be genuinely restricted, similar to how they completely prevented LB generation on duplicate jobs in Ultimates to prevent people from running multiple PCTs in the upcoming Ultimate. And before you make the completely ludicrous suggestion of triple/quadruple melee (which no sane player would agree to run), I would support the same restriction on melee jobs.

If you read my post properly, you would have noted that I said 'under target dummy conditions.' Any situation which forces melee downtime is going to skew massively in favor of ranged jobs, and we see that already with PCT. The only difference in what I'm proposing is instead of that ranged job always being PCT, it sometimes be MCH, DNC, BRD, SMN, RDM, or BLM. If you design it well, you will have some higher melee uptime fights that give melee jobs the upper hand, and others which give ranged the upper hand. You'll have some fights that favor burst, and others that favor sustained DPS.

You're fighting a battle on two fronts, and that's just not tenable. Would it really hurt you to let Physical Ranged have a chance to shine in terms of damage without treating them like they belong in a lower tier of ranged jobs? You could then make a better united case overall for Ranged jobs on the whole to have more instances to excel and take the top spot, outside of the PCT dominance that we've seen this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

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Casters are physically unable to move for extended periods of time and keep their rotation running that is a fundamental difference between casters and physical ranged. The logic is exactly the same, just like how they have jupiterfied hitboxes and designed every mechanic since junction shiva around the assumption that the melee should never need to move out of melee range they have also provided the casters insta casts. You can’t argue one is fundamentally different from the other because both are restrictions to the design of the ability of the class to maintain uptime. Playing HW BLM on the modern fight design is just as impossible as playing a melee at ranged. They have compensated one with internal mechanics and one with fight design mechanics but the distinction remains, casters are as different from physical ranged as melee are from casters and inherently there is no advantage to bringing a caster in the modern fight design in a “theoretical all goes” DPS design. If all jobs had parity and fight design didn’t change high cast casters would arguably suffer worse than melee because as of right now fight design builds in the assumption of melee but not necessarily casters. An anything goes meta would likely be 2 melee 2 physical ranged or 1 melee 3 physical ranged because the melee aren’t remotely disadvantaged by modern fight design but casters aren’t compensated for in fight design. They instead alter their rotations to fight design

Putting melee a small percentage above then “compensating” the other roles by making it so fight design sometimes favours the ranged role is just a recipe for making everyone angry. Enforcing melee downtime just makes the melees angry (E6 anyone) and allowing for 100% melee uptime basically just encourages the same melee dominance we have now because the playerbase hates fighting for actual uptime. Don’t get me wrong if every mechanic in savage was a junction shiva style actual fight for uptime I’d have no problem with your proposal because then jobs would actually be differentiated by skill, but as we know the playerbase acts like you kicked their puppy when we have 2 GCD’s of downtime even though they are 20+ ahead of every non melee besides PCT. But your problems with PCT raise a question. Arguably PCT already sits in a full uptime fight with the melees, it’s barely ahead in full uptime and most PCT’s you get will be lower (it has the highest IQR of any job in the game), if this is your “goal” so to speak about parity that favours different jobs why do you oppose the location of PCT right now, arguably the easier way to enact your plan is pull all the ranged up to PCT. ( or at least pull the ranged up to PCT minus 1 or 2% putting even its gold parse firmly amongst the melees

And I still don’t know where you are getting this whole “evil caster wants to hold the phys ranged down” my opinion has always been that a job that has no uptime concerns should have a theoretical lower ceiling than a job that does have uptime concerns (notice this is also why I argue for DPS parity amongst tanks and healers not healer dominance) but in exchange said job should have mechanics designed around it that play to its strengths and allow it to contribute meaningfully to the party in its own right (the renald answer). If this involves a superficial change of changing their name to “support DPS” that doesn’t bother me. It’s just like how I’ve always said that I have zero problem with support being taxed (such as putting PCT below BLM and SAM) but the taxes support should also be meaningful (tempra grassa is, star prism isn’t)

If we don't move away from single trial bosses with nothing else to do around on the arena, and introduce more metrics to take advantage on, this debate is never going to solve itself because there is no satisfying solution.

A pretty simple way to view the balance issue between ranged, and melee is that the pool of non-taxed ranged jobs is way too small. Only two out of seven ranged jobs are not taxed for various reasons, BLM and PCT, and on top of that, they come from the same role. Also melee dps are not subjected to as many balance splits as ranged are. Ranged are split between magical, and physical, rez and no rez, cast times, and no cast time. They're totally atomized. The only balance splits melee kinda have are buff, and non buff -- which they are pretty close to an even split, and are pretty tight because melee is a single role, and with gear type only affecting playstyle, and aesthetics.

So we can give jobs like BRD, and MCH walking casts, and it doubles the pool of non taxed ranged jobs as well as provide options outside of magical ranged role. Four out of seven. I don't have to fully agree with these tax rules, but I can point out solutions that works within the dev's rules. But I also happen to be a huge fan of walking casts as a mechanic because they make BRD, and MCH play better as marksmen. And the thing is that 'marksman BRD' does not have to give up its support utility because generic utility is not taxed in the same way rezzes are.

I wonder what job would remain for me to play once rphys gets turned into casters. Kinda dreadful to think about.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I wonder what job would remain for me to play once rphys gets turned into casters. Kinda dreadful to think about.

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You’ll find your job the same place people who like supporting the party do…people who enjoy playing healer…people who enjoyed pre-ShB Bard…people who liked pre-rework Summoner…people who liked release Viper…Monks…

…in a different game.

Also I like that we’re all making the assumption that the developers’ views on phys ranged are magically going to change and they’ll suddenly stop being deathly terrified of the role. Then they’ll give them all this extra dps and everything will be perfect phys ranged live again. As if they wouldn’t nerf every phys ranged into the ground without hesitation if they thought they were coming anywhere close to the other dps. If they were doing more ? ‘FFXIV has reached end of service goodbye everyone’.

As if logic has ever had anything to do with how they balance jobs. The ‘healer strike’ should have made abundantly clear that the devs will not change their stance on certain topics. One of which being ‘phys ranged must always be the de-facto worst dps available’. It does not matter how much ‘logic’ or ‘theory’ you bring, if they don’t want to do something they won’t do it. No matter how much they actually should

It's a bit odd that having a cast bar automatically turns a job into a 'Caster'. Is RPR a 'Caster'? Is SAM a 'Caster'? The primary assumption that people have are that Magical Ranged jobs are uniquely challenged by having to work around cast times, and that the APM loss by watching your 'Now Loading' bar fill up while dribbling paint from your mouth somehow outweighs actually weaving at high speed. And when you actually question it the separation of ranged jobs into upper and lower tiers becomes absurd.

I don't think the addition of a few walking casts on select Physical Ranged jobs will destroy the role, but it will make more people questioning why a 25 APM PCT simultaneously out-damages and out-supports a 45 APM MCH while not having to give up their mid-combat coffee breaks between burst windows. You just need to systematically remove their excuses until there's no defense, and then players will stop defending it. It was the same way for Living Dead as well, it was only when Holmgang was buffed to the point that nobody could deny that it was unilaterally broken in early Endwalker that Living Dead got rectified. Until then you still had people trying to justify it as being balanced.

And SE can ignore this all they like but they're really hitting turbulent waters in Dawntrail, and they really can't afford to fail at this game given the rest of their prospects. So if their five person job design team has unyielding opinions that are driving away players, well, I'm guessing that they'll eventually agree to toss out the bilge or sink the ship. Either way, they can't afford to drive entire swaths of players off of roles like that.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

. Either way, they can't afford to drive entire swaths of players off of roles like that.

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They already have though. Healers? Tanks? Monks? Phys ranged? Summoners? Black Mages (possibly)?

They weren’t bothered by driving ‘entire swaths of players’ off all those roles/jobs the past two expansions. Whether it’s by nuking huge parts of their gameplay into the ground (healer dps) or entirely redesigning an entire job with no possible alternative (Summoner).Why would they start caring now?

Casting bard during HW was the reason i never played it lol

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Casting bard during HW was the reason i never played it lol

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Walking casts were introduced in Endwalker during the 6.1 PVP rework, and only appeared on the PVP versions of BRD, and MCH. The tooltip states "Requires casting time to execute. However, it is possible to walk while casting." They follow similar rules to regular casts, but in practice they play differently. So the idea is to give PVE BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do currently in PVP. Every skill wouldn't become a walking cast, only the filler. I never got to play phys ranged in Heavensward, but I imagine that walking cast phys ranged made today would play very differently than full cast phys ranged back then.

Another thing to consider that actions that increase movement speed like Sprint can almost fuily negate the 'walking' part of walking casts. So in theory, Peloton could be reworked to grant a buff that increases movement speed while casting, that way it can be stacked with Sprint. Tools like Sprint, and hypothetical reworked Peloton can be used in fights with lots of movement.

To me, the mechanic feel more reminiscent of bow, and firearm mechanics that show up in other games. Like how with most bows, you have to manually pull back the string before letting go of an arrow or like when you scope in or aim down sights with various firearms in shooters. It's like they finally figured out how to give BRD, and MCH 'aiming' mechanics.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

To me, the mechanic feel more reminiscent of bow, and firearm mechanics that show up in other games. Like how with most bows, you have to manually pull back the string before letting go of an arrow or like when you scope in or aim down sights with various firearms in shooters. It's like they finally figured out how to give BRD, and MCH 'aiming' mechanics.

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I could be supportive of this general notion if there were three tiers:

1. Actions that are instant.
2. Actions with a cast time that still allow you to move, albeit slowly.
3. Actions with a cast time that require you to stand in one spot.

If "aiming" is truly to be a mechanic in this game, then it should have at least three levels of gradation.

But at that point, I would ask: Why shouldn't magical-ranged jobs also have the same amount of gradation in their spells? And given that, what should actually differentiate physical ranged from magical ranged?

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I could be supportive of this general notion if there were three tiers:

1. Actions that are instant.
2. Actions with a cast time that still allow you to move, albeit slowly.
3. Actions with a cast time that require you to stand in one spot.

If "aiming" is truly to be a mechanic in this game, then it should have at least three levels of gradation.

But at that point, I would ask: Why shouldn't magical-ranged jobs also have the same amount of gradation in their spells? And given that, what should actually differentiate physical ranged from magical ranged?

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The already kinda do.

1. Instant casts (PCT's Hammer combo, RDM's melee combo, and finishers, Paradox, Despair, Xenoglossy, etc on BLM, SMN)
2. Short casts (PCT's RGB spells, RDM, Jolt, fire, and earth spells, BLM ice spells under certain conditions)
3. Long casts (PCT's motifs, RDM's aero, and thunder spells, the rest BLM)

I think it would just come down to aesthetics. Like wanting to play a marksman or a mage being a similar choice between playing a striking melee or a scouting melee dps where it just comes down rotational differences, and aesthetic taste. It technically would be a form of homogenization, making physical, and magical ranged more interchangeable with each other. But if giving phys ranged 'aiming' mechanics that happen to resemble casting mechanics strengthens the mechanical identity as well as being able to increase their fire power for phys ranged then I think the pros outweigh the cons. Walking cast BRD would play totally differently from PCT, and walking cast MCH would play totally different from BLM.

I think action mechanics like cast times should be role-agnostic, and should be considered on a per job basis. Removing the cast times on SAM's Iajutsus just because it has some overlap with magical ranged DPS or undoing the Tsubame-gaeshi changes because it's like RDM's Dual Cast would make it a worse job, and so it should keep them. So if giving BRD, and MCH walking casts potentially makes them better jobs then the overlap with magical ranged should not be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think the addition of a few walking casts on select Physical Ranged jobs will destroy the role, but it will make more people questioning why a 25 APM PCT simultaneously out-damages and out-supports a 45 APM MCH while not having to give up their mid-combat coffee breaks between burst windows. You just need to systematically remove their excuses until there's no defense, and then players will stop defending it. It was the same way for Living Dead as well, it was only when Holmgang was buffed to the point that nobody could deny that it was unilaterally broken in early Endwalker that Living Dead got rectified. Until then you still had people trying to justify it as being balanced.

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I normally don’t like reopening arguments but this point literally makes zero sense. You’ve contradicted yourself within a single paragraph

“We need to remove the excuses of a job with low APM (side note why are you so convinced that APM is directly proportional to difficulty) being allowed to do so much damage and the way to show this is to………lower the APM of an existing job by giving it a similar casting mechanic to the job we are trying to show is overpowered for its APM”

Either PCT’s APM/DPS profile is not overpowered (or swap in BLM and make the same argument) or otherwise lowering MCH’s APM to give it casts constitutes an example of making it easier; not harder. I physically don’t see how you can argue both ways here

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Originally Posted by mallleable

So the idea is to give PVE BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do currently in PVP. Every skill wouldn't become a walking cast, only the filler.

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I have to ask here, why force BRD and MCH to have the same system again? A lot of the issues the physical ranged role faced in HW was precisely because they changed BRD to match MCH.

I'd rather see every job within the role diversified instead. MCH can have a walkcast filler and maybe some tools too, BRD can remain the speed demon APM proc spam job, DNC can remain the slow and chill 1 (proc 2) combo 3 (proc 4) job.

I think that would satisfy more of the people who play the role rather than forcing BRD and MCH into the same peg again and making the same mistake as HW design did (I personally enjoyed bowmage, but I still see the massive mistake of forcing parity between BRD and MCH rather than allowing them to grow separately).

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I have to ask here, why force BRD and MCH to have the same system again? A lot of the issues the physical ranged role faced in HW was precisely because they changed BRD to match MCH.

I'd rather see every job within the role diversified instead. MCH can have a walkcast filler and maybe some tools too, BRD can remain the speed demon APM proc spam job, DNC can remain the slow and chill 1 (proc 2) combo 3 (proc 4) job.

I think that would satisfy more of the people who play the role rather than forcing BRD and MCH into the same peg again and making the same mistake as HW design did (I personally enjoyed bowmage, but I still see the massive mistake of forcing parity between BRD and MCH rather than allowing them to grow separately).

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My ideal bow mechanic for BRD would one where you press, and hold down a button with a UI element that fills up depending on how long you have held down the button, and then it deals damage upon releasing the button, and the attack's power is dependent on how much meter you built up from holding down the button. Think like how Hanzo's bow works from Overwatch or like how the Sniper's Huntsman unlock works from Team Fortress 2. However, I think such a system would run into a ton of problems like GCD clipping, and accidental 'tap fires' because the server or your ISP had a hiccup. FFXIV is just not equipped for such granularity. Walking cast basically automates such a mechanic, and in my mind feel like they were made for PVP BRD first, then given to MCH, but they also happen to work on both jobs. And I fully admit that PVP BRD gave me a taste for blood on my favorite job, and now I want that power in PVE. lol

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's a bit odd that having a cast bar automatically turns a job into a 'Caster'. Is RPR a 'Caster'? Is SAM a 'Caster'?

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Well then if it just takes adding a couple of casts per minute ala SAM/RPR to rphys to magically fix everything and remove the tax, hell yeah, consider me sold.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Walking casts were introduced in Endwalker during the 6.1 PVP rework, and only appeared on the PVP versions of BRD, and MCH. The tooltip states "Requires casting time to execute. However, it is possible to walk while casting." They follow similar rules to regular casts, but in practice they play differently. So the idea is to give PVE BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do currently in PVP. Every skill wouldn't become a walking cast, only the filler. I never got to play phys ranged in Heavensward, but I imagine that walking cast phys ranged made today would play very differently than full cast phys ranged back then.

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It would play the same. Same cast times, same weave window. Whether one is harder to cancel than the other is relatively irrelevant.

The only reason it worked on MCH somewhat but not BRD was because of ammo, which is now gone from the game.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

The already kinda do. But if giving phys ranged 'aiming' mechanics that happen to resemble casting mechanics strengthens the mechanical identity as well as being able to increase their fire power for phys ranged then I think the pros outweigh the cons. Walking cast BRD would play totally differently from PCT, and walking cast MCH would play totally different from BLM.

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Like BLM plays differently from RDM or PCT? I'm not sure that argument holds that much water seen from the other persoective..

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Originally Posted by mallleable

My ideal bow mechanic for BRD would one where you press, and hold down a button with a UI element that fills up depending on how long you have held down the button, and then it deals damage upon releasing the button, and the attack's power is dependent on how much meter you built up from holding down the button. Think like how Hanzo's bow works from Overwatch or like how the Sniper's Huntsman unlock works from Team Fortress 2. However, I think such a system would run into a ton of problems like GCD clipping, and accidental 'tap fires' because the server or your ISP had a hiccup. FFXIV is just not equipped for such granularity. Walking cast basically automates such a mechanic, and in my mind feel like they were made for PVP BRD first, then given to MCH, but they also happen to work on both jobs. And I fully admit that PVP BRD gave me a taste for blood on my favorite job, and now I want that power in PVE. lol

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Personally I'm not sure I started playing XIV because it shared a model with FPS games or overwatch... But with more traditional RPGs.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Personally I'm not sure I started playing XIV because it shared a model with FPS games or overwatch... But with more traditional RPGs.

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Yeah, agreed.

I want my jobs to feel different because of different base approaches to their ability usage, whereas right now ~everyone is based on a static rotation (even the seemingly-proc-based Red Mage and seemingly-priority-based Dancer follow 95%+ rigid rotations with marginal changes), but beyond that I want it to be "just" an MMORPG first and foremost. Not something wild that makes socialization impossible as I have to step away from the computer and pick up my keytar-controller to play Bard.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I have to step away from the computer and pick up my keytar-controller to play Bard.

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BRD is a musician job, I don't see why this is a problem! ;)

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Originally Posted by mallleable

BRD is a musician job, I don't see why this is a problem! ;)

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If BRD is musician and DNC is a dancer then we need a singer job so we can have a band!

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Originally Posted by mallleable

The already kinda do.

1. Instant casts (PCT's Hammer combo, RDM's melee combo, and finishers, Paradox, Despair, Xenoglossy, etc on BLM, SMN)
2. Short casts (PCT's RGB spells, RDM, Jolt, fire, and earth spells, BLM ice spells under certain conditions)
3. Long casts (PCT's motifs, RDM's aero, and thunder spells, the rest BLM)

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you can add this:

-Rythm timing.
-Animation-lock, slow + movespeed buff afterward.
-Instant 2 attacks with 1scond self stun and 3.5 GCD afterward, dual attacking you can say for jobs that have dual weapons or guns.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I think action mechanics like cast times should be role-agnostic, and should be considered on a per job basis. Removing the cast times on SAM's Iajutsus just because it has some overlap with magical ranged DPS or undoing the Tsubame-gaeshi changes because it's like RDM's Dual Cast would make it a worse job, and so it should keep them. So if giving BRD, and MCH walking casts potentially makes them better jobs then the overlap with magical ranged should not be a problem.

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SAM is on the right track of job balancing and they should keep it that way,

SAM is Slayer/Caster type of job
RDM is Caster/Assasin
MCH is Marksman, Artillery

the problem is Cast in FFXIV has many meaning it could be support, it could be mage, it could be instant cast caster we don't really know,

and marksman in ffxiv have an identity issue we don't know is it an instant cast or it should have different mechanic ?

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

If BRD is musician and DNC is a dancer then we need a singer job so we can have a band!

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A singer themed job could actually be really good -- especially if they make it a healer. BRD can be this music, and archery themed DPS, and for those who don't actually want to be playing a DPS, they can have singer as a music themed support.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

SAM is on the right track of job balancing and they should keep it that way,

SAM is Slayer/Caster type of job
RDM is Caster/Assasin
MCH is Marksman, Artillery

the problem is Cast in FFXIV has many meaning it could be support, it could be mage, it could be instant cast caster we don't really know,

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Can you elaborate on these classifications and where they are from respectively how they apply to FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Either way, fights are designed off of a 2/2/2/2 principle. This has nothing to do with melee, and has everything to do with Magical Ranged completely dominating Physical Ranged in their respective category.

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What I fail to understand is...


Why are Summoner and Red Mage ~5% ahead of Physical Ranged when they

- Have the best progression tool in the game - Ability to Raise
- Are as mobile as the Physical Ranged
- Also bring similar mitigation abilities to Physical Ranged


Arguably RDM and SMN should be below PRanged simply because they have the ability to raise.

ESPECIALLY RDM as it has the ability to raise without needing to wait on a Swiftcast cooldown.



They also need to stop being scared, admit Pictomancer is overpowered and nerf it.

This is an area where I think WoW trumps XIV big time - They aren't scared to nerf what's overpowered, nor do they power creep everyone else to try hide the fact something's overpowered.


This proves my point -

https://imgur.com/a/RVbChGs

And for anyone who doesn't play WoW - That's a sizeable nerf given Enhancement's whole shtick is building Maelstrom and spending it on their finishers like Stormstrike etc.



A little bit of backlash because the overpowered job gets nerfed is better than power creeping everything else to try hide the overpowered job.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Are as mobile as the Physical Ranged

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Summoner, sure, nearly as mobile. Essentially a non-caster.

Red Mage? The second-least-mobile caster and either the one with the most total time spent casting or second-most? Okaaaay...

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Originally Posted by NightHour

A little bit of backlash because the overpowered job gets nerfed is better than power creeping everything else to try hide the overpowered job.

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It's not even a little bit of backlash, everyone expects and wants Pictos to be nerfed, and did so from the get-go. Instead we get continuous sweeping across-the-board buffs which in turn cause all PvE content to be seriously undertuned 1 major patch in already!

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Originally Posted by Carighan

It's not even a little bit of backlash, everyone expects and wants Pictos to be nerfed, and did so from the get-go. Instead we get continuous sweeping across-the-board buffs which in turn cause all PvE content to be seriously undertuned 1 major patch in already!

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This perma buffing mentality is why this raid tier is so easy.


The tier was tuned with 7.0 numbers in mind.



It feels like Square doesn't wanna piss off the Picto players but is happy pissing off players of the other jobs.

I bet devs think phys ranged are all doing perfectly fine because ‘but people are still playing them!!!’ As if it’s not the exact same as healers where people aren’t playing them because they want to, they’re playing them because someone has to for the role bonus lol. And even that’s a debatable benefit at this point

I can even think of a word for how stupid it is lol. That a dev team so absolutely laser focused on perfect job balance, can make so many absolutely awful misinformed and short sighted balancing decisions, so consistently lol…

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Originally Posted by Connor

I bet devs think phys ranged are all doing perfectly fine because ‘but people are still playing them!!!’ As if it’s not the exact same as healers where people aren’t playing them because they want to, they’re playing them because someone has to for the role bonus lol. And even that’s a debatable benefit at this point

I can even think of a word for how stupid it is lol. That a dev team so absolutely laser focused on perfect job balance, can make so many absolutely awful misinformed and short sighted balancing decisions, so consistently lol…

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If they keep buffing numbers it would make the 1% more and more meaning less and make it more probably for people to forgo phys ranged, and if they do I'm all for it so people can complain so the role finally gets attention. the entire role is in shambles and needs to be fixed sooner rather than later.

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Originally Posted by Shaynos

If they keep buffing numbers it would make the 1% more and more meaning less and make it more probably for people to forgo phys ranged, and if they do I'm all for it so people can complain so the role finally gets attention. the entire role is in shambles and needs to be fixed sooner rather than later.

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If Square needs to buff jobs - STOP BUFFING BURST ABILITIES and start buffing GCD Fillers and 123 combos.

Buffing burst also buffs Picto as it brings a raid buff.


And start giving Physical Ranged proper buffs before they start getting locked out.

20 Potency on Fan Dance II is not enough, 20 potency on Flamethrower is not enough.





Start buffing abilities like Cascade, Fountain, Heated Split Shot, Heated Slug Shot etc.... abilities where you see the benefits more than every 2 minutes.

Like let's look at Dancer's 1 and 2 - 220 potency and 120 (280 if combo'd after Cascade)... Maybe make Cascade 250 and Fountain 300 if combo'd.

These aren't used inside burst windows anyway and would add more consistent ST damage to the job.









It's a matter of time before DNC, MCH, BRD start getting locked out in favor of PCT/RDM comps.

PCT being as overpowered as it is can cover up the fact that the Red Mage does less damage (which is still more than all of the Physical Ranged btw) AND the RDM brings way more valuable things to a group.


Taking a RDM with all of its prog centric utility and its ability to be a Pseudo Physical Ranged with their instant cast procs and it's slightly better damage is going to outweigh 1% that Phys is bought for.


I honestly believe that if I knew how to play RDM on a similar level as I play DNC and I actually had gear for RDM - I'd be progging FRU on RDM.

Small nitpick: RDM procs aren't instant casts, they replace a same-duration cast with a different one.

This whole "Ranged Tax" and "Utility Tax" is outdated and has no place in current day FF14.

At most the gap between Melee and Ranged should be < 5%.


Melee's in particular no longer need to fight for uptime or positionals, boss hitboxes and mechanics are designed specifically with melee uptime in mind.


We don't live in the Doma castle days anymore where bosses have miniscule hitboxes (looking at you last boss in Doma) and mechanics actually forcing you away from bosses.


As for the "no reason to play melee if ranged do similar damage" nonsense that melee players keep spewing - Melee is one of the most fun to play and lowest responsibility roles in higher end content.

Also most strategies are made around the premise of a group having 2 melee and 2 ranged. Melee will still be played even if Phys and Casters are within 5% of them.


No sane melee player will ever give up their Viper or Dragoon to go be someone elses bitch on Dancer.

I think the biggest Problem with Physical Ranged jobs is how badly they are designed,
Only Dancer has put some thought into it.
Bard and Machinist are just awful to play in PvE, but they feel good in PvP

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Originally Posted by NightHour

This whole "Ranged Tax" and "Utility Tax" is outdated and has no place in current day FF14.

At most the gap between Melee and Ranged should be < 5%.


Melee's in particular no longer need to fight for uptime or positionals, boss hitboxes and mechanics are designed specifically with melee uptime in mind.


We don't live in the Doma castle days anymore where bosses have miniscule hitboxes (looking at you last boss in Doma) and mechanics actually forcing you away from bosses.


As for the "no reason to play melee if ranged do similar damage" nonsense that melee players keep spewing - Melee is one of the most fun to play and lowest responsibility roles in higher end content.

Also most strategies are made around the premise of a group having 2 melee and 2 ranged. Melee will still be played even if Phys and Casters are within 5% of them.


No sane melee player will ever give up their Viper or Dragoon to go be someone elses bitch on Dancer.

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I'd note that the gap between rphys and melee dps in the second half of expansions since ShB, has always been around 5-6%. It always seems to start very high at release for some reason, and then they keep rebuffing the role until the gap thins a little. I still don't think it is satisfying enough in any case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I think the biggest Problem with Physical Ranged jobs is how badly they are designed,
Only Dancer has put some thought into it.
Bard and Machinist are just awful to play in PvE, but they feel good in PvP

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DNC is the most resident sleeper stuff I've had the displeasure playing until SMN took the cake. Only redeeming feature, it's a rphys job for me. Only bard is even remotely interesting right now, but it's not saying much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NightHour

??

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https://i.imgur.com/9DSTZd7h.png

The reason why Physical Ranged is consistently neglected and disregarded is because you're willing to shill for Magical Ranged while PCT laughs all the way to the clear on a 25 APM rotation. This isn't Endwalker anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

https://i.imgur.com/9DSTZd7h.png

The reason why Physical Ranged is consistently neglected and disregarded is because you're willing to shill for Magical Ranged while PCT laughs all the way to the clear on a 25 APM rotation. This isn't Endwalker anymore.

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I still have zero idea why you fixate on APM of all things

Like your own main is basically a developer exercise in showing you can have twice the APM of most other jobs while still struggling to surpass SMN in how easy the class is. Very few people would argue VPR is harder than PCT so honestly what does APM add to anything in a discussion

Hell why not complain about that DRG is also running laps around VPR with lower APM or even literally any other class

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

...

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Didn't you originally swap over directly from a one-button broil job to PCT? And that's as a 'roleplaying main', in your own words. I could try to explain to you how mechanical complexity works in contrast to feelycraft, but sometimes you just can't express something to someone that's outside their experience. You're certainly welcome to try to play a melee job in harder content if you like and get a different perspective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Didn't you originally swap over directly from a one-button broil job to PCT? And that's as a 'roleplaying main', in your own words. I could try to explain to you how mechanical complexity works in contrast to feelycraft, but sometimes you just can't express something to someone that's outside their experience. You're certainly welcome to try to play a melee job in harder content if you like and get a different perspective.

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Have you tried to play a caster in high end content or does the fact that casters actually have to cast mean nothing to you. Pressing 3 buttons when I press one doesn’t immediately make your class harder when I can’t move while I’m casting that 1, or are the overwhelming feedback that VPR is too easy mean nothing to you. You can’t hold authority over me for not playing melee in high end content when you don’t play casters in high end content. I do high end content. I don’t do high end content on Andreas. That’s the entire point of your comment that you are misinterpreting as me being a “roleplaying main”. I hide my raid logs on an alt in the JP servers with my static because I don’t need people stalking them

In your eyes APM is equal to complexity, so by this logic

1) BLM is an incredibly easy job that should be doing bottom of the barrel damage (I’m sure you’d have a fun time trying to sell that)
2) any job doing more than VPR is instantly incorrectly balanced. This includes DRG, MNK, NIN, SAM and RPR all who do more damage than VPR. Hell DRG is doing so much more damage than VPR in FRU its worse than literally any point of PCT balance prior to FRU, which you have strongly opposed since day 1

Do you agree with these points? If not your internal logic has no consistency and is basically “PCT bad my justification of why doesn’t matter”. Acting like you hold authority over me changes nothing about how your argument has no internal logic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NightHour

At most the gap between Melee and Ranged should be < 5%.

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It... is? /confused

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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I feel like we end up constantly going in circles with this. I get that you're really happy that there's an extremely powerful job that lets you feel valued for next to no effort, which is why you've been unconditionally defending it against nerfs despite the impact it's having on the game. I'm naturally going to argue against it, because I see it driving players out of the game. It's a bit ironic, because it's essentially the healer situation but flipped, yet you can't seem to take a more empathic stance on it.

You're not engaged with raid content on your own admission, so there's no point going to a discussion over this. It's genuinely silly trying to compare PCT and the likes of BLM, when PCT is essentially SMN without raise. I'm also not going to scrutinize all the technical differences between melee jobs that vary by like 5-10 APM, especially when we know the primary performance difference varies based off of fight clear time and uptime considerations (i.e. essentially burst vs. sustained damage) from looking at data from the last tier across several weeks.