AOE Spam Fest <Please remove it>

No. The point of final fantasy is supposed to be based around fighting epic hordes of monsters and proving that you're some kind of epic warrior of legends. Fighting one Goblin at a time doesn't really emulate that.

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

No. The point of final fantasy is supposed to be based around fighting epic hordes of monsters and proving that you're some kind of epic warrior of legends. Fighting one Goblin at a time doesn't really emulate that.

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This ^ it's the same reason most xi players avoided fights where there are lot of of adds.

Let's take the political correctness out of this debate and focus on what it's really about.

OP basically said: "Nerf BLM, Nerf WAR harder."

That's all. And that's flawed.

AoE is going to be a factor in this game. A good factor, and a fun factor in many cases. In United We Stand, both AoE and single target abilities were needed to win the fight, and deisgns in the game should be designed more along that line.

What I keep finding is that those who are scared by Black Mages and Warrior's Capasity to quickily destroy a cluster of weak monsters is the assumption that this sort of field EXP is the only solution for their group EXP needs.

As I've stated before: Why not Leves designed for groups?

Listen to the pros here for a moment before you complain:

You can pick whatever EXP camp you want as they'll be accessible to everyone thanks to the fact that the monsters for you will be designated to you.
The combat will have more depth to it because the monsters can be designed specifically to make group combat feel good.
The difficulty and thus the rewards can be adjustable on the fly.
And you'll still require that feeling of comradeship in getting a group together.

To top it off, they could also design different KINDS of group Leves, one of which could have you defending against waves of enemies that come in to a designated camp spot. Or having you prepare an onslaught against a large enemy group or boss type monster, depending on your desire.

It is a far superior design than simply going out and killing random fauna that could easily be ruined by competition, or in trade ruin someone elses day by stampeding over a player's hunting grounds. It can not only emulate the desired feel of an XP party, but it can also expand upon an XP parties options in obtaining said XP.

I do not see the reason why you have to drastically alter the current design of field monsters - something which should be a unique experience in and of itself, just to create something that could be met in systems already existing in the game, and can be used to circumvent the flaws the old 'xp camp' system have in terms of camp competition.

Let's use what we have to move forward, and improve upon the game to meet many player's desires, rather than regress backwards to appeal to ONLY one group or another.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

Seeing as most people tend to have their own definition of what is considered Final Fantasy, saying things like this is meaningless. You might think it isn't "Final Fantasy enough", but others might be okay with it.

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Clearly people have their own definition of what feel Final Fantasy games should have, but none of the previous games (except maybe XIII) have combat where you can't keep track of what is going on. The idea that Final Fantasy characters are supposed to be godly just isn't true. Most of the characters are fairly normal people who get thrust into situation they weren't prepared for. With that said, the combat required various tactics because the characters were always facing challenges that were supposed to be able stop them but their teamwork prevailed.

So tell me, how does tab targeting the closest enemy in a group of 8 very weak monsters and using Fire to kill them at the same time have the same feel as any of the previous titles?

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Clearly people have their own definition of what feel Final Fantasy games should have, but none of the previous games (except maybe XIII) have combat where you can't keep track of what is going on. The idea that Final Fantasy characters are supposed to be godly just isn't true. Most of the characters are fairly normal people who get thrust into situation they weren't prepared for. With that said, the combat required various tactics because the characters were always facing challenges that were supposed to be able stop them but their teamwork prevailed.

So tell me, how does tab targeting the closest enemy in a group of 8 very weak monsters and using Fire to kill them at the same time have the same feel as any of the previous titles?

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Pick fire pair it will all materia and all the mobs on screen die.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

So tell me, how does tab targeting the closest enemy in a group of 8 very weak monsters and using Fire to kill them at the same time have the same feel as any of the previous titles?

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Clearly you've never played any of the 8 or 16 bit titles. That's exactly how EXP grinding works in those game.

-1 Pick field.
-2 Walk around field until random encounter occurs.
-3 Spam enemy squad with strongest AoE attacks (Using strongest focus attacks on the hardest monsters in the group for characters without AoE.)
-4 Find next random encounter.

That formulate and camps occur in every single final fantasy. The only reason why you have be able to keep track of it, is that it was slowed down for single player use. Play FF12 a while without pausing, and you'll see that your ability to keep track of the action diminishes. Not really because the monsters are too weak or the battle is too frantic, but because you're fighting real time on a 3d plane from one perspective.

Do the same Formula in FF6 with your cursor set to "Memory" and hold down your attack button with default AoE spells, and you'll get the exact sensation - not to mention faster XP.

So yeah, you kinda loose clout in your argument there. Every single player FF game can easily turn into an AoE-fest, and such tactics are usually only bested with specific monsters which can be considered the equivalent of raid monsters or raid bosses.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

How is AoE not "final fantasy-ish?"

Many of them, from the very first one on had "kill everything on the screen" AoE. I was honestly very irritated in FFXI how rarely AoE got used, especially AoE weapon skills which were almost always terrible. almost always got you killed and were never really used until Abyssea.

The game has mob parties- they're just only in levequests. For whatever reason, they didn't take it much further than that. However, the link and call for help systems kind of offset the lack of it. Though, calls for help don't seem to get invoked very often.

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I think AOE should be situational. What I'm referring to are the AOE spam fests of 10-20 mobs where everybody uses nothing but AOEs to burn mobs and White Mages spam Curaga.

I miss having a sense of danger and being cautious. For example and not limited to: Your party is grinding Mandragoras in Yuhtunga Jungle and that ONE Goblin roamer nearby can "potentially" wipe your party if you're not prepared or caught off guard. I don't think AOE should be removed, but I would appreciate individual mobs to be more of a challenge.

Why does it have to be 'individual mobs'?

Why can't monsters as a group be more of a challenge. I don't know about you, but Many players on One Monster should be reserved for strong and boss type monsters. The rest should be group on group when it comes to parties.

It wouldn't be all that bad if we could see enemy groups, especially in beast-men zones, act and function as we do. With a tank pulling provokes and taunts on us to keep us from attacking their squishes, which in turn deal damage and do curing.

Of course that's just one of many suggestions that would grow the game rather than simply alter it to suit another crowd. The game should appeal to a wide audience and therefore should accommodate both camps. I still beleive Squad Leves would work best for party leveling desires as it eliminates the whole camp competition issue, and could provide various ways of gaining XP.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Clearly you've never played any of the 8 or 16 bit titles. That's exactly how EXP grinding works in those game.

-1 Pick field.
-2 Walk around field until random encounter occurs.
-3 Spam enemy squad with strongest AoE attacks (Using strongest focus attacks on the hardest monsters in the group for characters without AoE.)
-4 Find next random encounter.

That formulate and camps occur in every single final fantasy. The only reason why you have be able to keep track of it, is that it was slowed down for single player use. Play FF12 a while without pausing, and you'll see that your ability to keep track of the action diminishes. Not really because the monsters are too weak or the battle is too frantic, but because you're fighting real time on a 3d plane from one perspective.

Do the same Formula in FF6 with your cursor set to "Memory" and hold down your attack button with default AoE spells, and you'll get the exact sensation - not to mention faster XP.

So yeah, you kinda loose clout in your argument there. Every single player FF game can easily turn into an AoE-fest, and such tactics are usually only bested with specific monsters which can be considered the equivalent of raid monsters or raid bosses.

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No, you just supported his argument...the issue is that you have no idea what his argument is. The argument is NOT that AOE's = bad. The argument is that it is currently a clusterfuck of 15 mobs that are haphazardly fused together, creating such a mess that there is no feeling of "tactics" involved. You can't choose the strongest target effectively, you can't "line them up", you can't do anything except random target a mob and watch a whole group die. Your example is the exact opposite of what he's trying to argue against. In fact, your example is exactly what the OP wants. He's not speaking Greek, idk why its so hard to understand. There is no strategy in the game because:

1) Too many mobs, like way too many. No organization at all, I can't even choose my targets really based on the battlefield situation, and everything dies in one aoe. Maybe 2. That's just a zerg fest..like a DotA clone or Diablo. Click and watch things die.

2) Targetting is atrocious, which is amplified by #1. I can't focus my attacks well because I can't even see wtf is going on. There's a huge blob of feathers over there, to the point where I couldn't even count how many mobs there are, nor find the strongest one. Either cycle targets til I find it (dead by then due to collateral aoe dmg), or say screw it and throw an aoe at the nearest mob..hoping to kill the strong guy by accident. What generally happens is the latter.


Hopefully you now understand the point of the thread. Its not AOE, just the way its done. Final Fantasy has always been a "thinking" game...not a "haphazardly throw AoE's around and kill the guy you want eventually" game.

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.

Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

If you think the AoE fights in FFXIV require no thought, you are not doing any of the actual fights in the game. Cutters Cry: Specific mob types need to be extinguised at the same time to progress.

Darkhold - ENEMY AOE's are a major danger, also, using AOE's at the wrong time or in the wrong position angered the ghosts that would kill you.

Garuda - AoE's, particularly the physical ones, needed to be used just right to rid yourself of as many Plumes as possible.

United We Stand - you had to use AoE's and single target attacks on top of being aware of hate in order to win.

This game does AoE's properly. You are fixated in the portions of the game in which AoE's are most effective. Nothing in this game states Zerg Rush = Win. Usually attempting so kills you and fails the run.

You're taking a minor portion of the game as an example as the entire thing, and the argument I diffused was "This isn't Final Fantasy" which is utter baloney. Wiping weak mobs with mass AoEs has always been a part of Final Fantasy. You still have to think, plan, and react accordingly in any battle that counts for anything in this game. Please stop complaining about xp camps like it's the entirety of the game.

If you'd like to talk about adding greater depth to XP parties, you can read my above suggestions and actually comment on those, instead of attacking a side argument out of context.

It's a good point, though I don't see a solution myself.

You could increase the stats of lower tier enemies as per usual progression in FF game (recycled enemies with higher stats) which would bring the amount of mobs down, though balance would be needed so we don't end up with the extreme left like in FF11 where you need 8 people to take down a single Goblin which was half the size of the axe being swung at it.

The issue thereafter is still that pts will generally use AoE to fight a group of enemies greater than X.

I've always wondered how it would work if AoE's were area based, so if you have say 10 enemies in a confined area on the tank, the damage of the AoE would be spread out based on the level of mobs, their position relevant to the epicentre, and if any of the mobs in front of them would act as a 'shield' and lessen the damage done.

Once again though, I feel we end up back at the "PT's AoE spamming".

Like I said... I don't know of a possible solution. I think if there was, SE would have implemented it by now and if not, may implement such either in/post 2.0

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.

Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

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I didn't read the *whole* thread, but I didnt' see this in the OP or recent posts, so I have nooo idea how you are drawing this conclusion. He said the current implementation of AoE sucks, and I agree. There's nothing challenging about it..its random click+aoe.

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If you think the AoE fights in FFXIV require no thought, you are not doing any of the actual fights in the game.

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Or maybe you find them more difficult than I do? I don't see the thought in anything about stronghold runs, darkhold, garuda plumes, AV, etc etc. The only one is CC, but one out of many doesn't count as good to me.
Cutters Cry: Specific mob types need to be extinguised at the same time to progress.

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You're taking a minor portion of the game as an example as the entire thing, and the argument I diffused was "This isn't Final Fantasy" which is utter baloney. Wiping weak mobs with mass AoEs has always been a part of Final Fantasy. You still have to think, plan, and react accordingly in any battle that counts for anything in this game. Please stop complaining about xp camps like it's the entirety of the game.

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Yes but it wasn't a zerg. Have you ran a dungeon? That's a zerg. Stronghold runs? Zerg. The only thing you can't outright zerg is CC, and AV in a couple spots because of all the toads. Everything else is zerg zerg zerg. Have you asked what mobs the BLM's are targetting for giggles? They probably dont even know. Just click one thats close by and your AOE will hit the important one by default. That's not very final fantasy if you ask me. In Final Fantasy you were at *least* allowed to effectively choose your targets. Good luck choosing a target in a mess of 15 mobs. Its awful. Targetting is atrocious. I can't even assist the main tank because I can't see what is hitting him. There is nothing strategic about that. A lot of this can be fixed with a better targetting system, but I see the OP's point. And its a fairly good one.

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If you'd like to talk about adding greater depth to XP parties, you can read my above suggestions and actually comment on those, instead of attacking a side argument out of context.

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Considering your side argument has to do with the main topic of the thread (the AOE's) I fail to see how its a "side" argument at all. Its the main topic, this thread isn't about suggestions (outside of get rid of it), its about what the aoe situation is like right now.

The problem isn't inherent in the game mechanics, though the lack of proper magic resist in the game does contribute to it.

The problem is inherent in the population taking the path of least resistance.

As I said, any fight of substance in this game uses AoE's properly. XP parties is not a fight of substance and never has been, not even in FFXI - and even then players took the path of least resistance. Fell Cleave burns anyone? If not Fell Cleave, how about TP burns? or Manaburns, or Arrowburns? None of these fights had substance to it, it was whatever exploit the players could get to yield greater XP. You are not going to break that trend unless you find a controlled method that will yield rewards greater than that of a typical mob grind.

My solution is creating group Leves - and it even addresses many of the concerns brought about by players here - so I've yet to hear of a better solution that has a broader appeal.

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Originally Posted by Firon

God please no FF XI made your char seem so weak needed 6 ppl to kill one mob was already shameful enough. Only FF where 6 ppl can get beat up by a single rabbit >_>.

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If that isnt a challenge to SE to bring Fury to FFXIV i dont know what is =P

On a serious note personally i think the content at the moment leans towards large numbers of mobs a bit too much and wouldnt mind seeing a rebalancing of this a bit more towards less more challenging monsters > many less challenging monsters. But theres nothing wrong with having a bit of everything here and there.

Ok, time to smack down some falacies.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Yes but it wasn't a zerg. Have you ran a dungeon?

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The 25 Dungeons had objectives that needed to be met. Were the monsters killed promptly? Yes, but that's a direct corrlation to another problem this game has - rewarding speed runs. Next.

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Stronghold runs? Zerg.

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When was the last time a Stronghold was important for anything but farming Headbands/Tapers? And go to the end of a stronghold and try to hold your ground for more than 10 minutes. See how long your zerg tactic holds up.

By the way Castra Novem is a stronghold. You need a hell of a lot of people to zerg that.

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The only thing you can't outright zerg is CC, and AV in a couple spots because of all the toads. Everything else is zerg zerg zerg.

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Garuda, Ifrit, Especially Ifrit Extreme, Moogle, Chocobo,

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Have you asked what mobs the BLM's are targetting for giggles? They probably dont even know. Just click one thats close by and your AOE will hit the important one by default. That's not very final fantasy if you ask me.

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*stare*

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Just What

Are you talking about?

Saying not very final fantasy?


Again, what is and is not Final Fantasy is not up to the opinions of the players, but of the developers of Final Fantasy themselves. And as you can see above, there was quite a bit of "Blowing things up with massive amounts of magic with litter regard to target." In the previous games.

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In Final Fantasy you were at *least* allowed to effectively choose your targets. Good luck choosing a target in a mess of 15 mobs. Its awful. Targetting is atrocious.

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That has nothing to do with AoEs and everything to do with the bad engine and UI. You're committing blame by proxy. AoE's isn't the problem in this instance, the UI is, that and the fact that you keep picking weak monsters and old content as your examples.


The side argument was that AoE spam was not Final Fantasy. I've provided evidence to the contrary. Targeting issues are issues with the game's targeting. Monster's ease of death to magical damage is an issue with magical resists and players simply preferring to stick to weak monsters when Xping.

If enemies had better magic resist scaling on number of targets and level difference, we woulden't be having this conversation.

If people had better targeting, like /as, so that the melees could focus on the harder-to-kill targets of groups, we would not be having this conversation.

This is not a problem with how AoE Centric this game is. The fact that this game is group on group is a good thing. Does it need to be further refined? Yes. But AoEs, yes, even AoE Zerging, is a part of Final Fantasy, and has been since before Diablo.

Fights that make you 'think' still exist in quantifiable numbers in this game, so please quit filling your requests with overblown arguments and false statements. Castram Novum, Garuda, and Hamlet Defence has already proven that the developing use of AoEs are already beginning to become refined. Its time to further refine the argument itself to match current development trends.

And current development trends say "Hey, good job on United we Stand. We need more of that."

The problem, I think, is not so much how many mobs you are fighting but how those mobs are positioned. When you pull a group of mobs they all end up in a tight group literally overlapping one another. If mobs were programmed to keep some distance between themselves and other nearby mobs, that would limit the number of mobs you could hit with aoe attacks and thereby limit that tactic's effectiveness.

Taking this idea one step further, It would be even more interesting for mobs to have a more sophisticated group AI system. Where mobs that link together would support each other at least in some limited fashion. This could be something as simple as changing the link routines to prioritize diverse mobs whenever possible. EX. when fighting in beastman strongholds and you pull a melee type mob the link priority would go to nearby ranged mobs first, creating an ad-hoc frontline/backline 'party' of mobs. It would be even better if these mobs could work together, mage mobs would know to cast cures on wounded frontline mobs, and frontline mobs would have some methods of supporting their backline members (maybe focusing on stun moves when mages in their 'party' were badly wounded) but obviously a complex AI system would be a great deal of work.

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So tell me, how does tab targeting the closest enemy in a group of 8 very weak monsters and using Fire to kill them at the same time have the same feel as any of the previous titles?

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Because you could do it in basically every turn based and ATB based final fantasy?

Which FF, other than XI, didn't have you AOEing down groups of enemies? Which FF, other than XI, had you slowly, bitterly grinding your whole party against a single enemy, for every single battle?

I wish the mobs were just tougher in general. It's so easy, it's boring me to tears. No need for debuffs, no need for a real strategy. Just engage, use your best offensive ability, rinse, repeat.

So, with the exception of mobs that are obviously higher level than the person fighting them, it has been a sad state of affairs when it comes to fighting most of the pathetic and unchallenging mobs that XIV has to offer. Whats even worse is the only mob that offers any sort of unique combat conditions in terms of strategy are the dodos. (i mean normal mobs here not bosses)

Case in point: There has long been medicines and gear in the game (and more recently materia) that nullify, bolster the defense against, or combat the effects of paralysis, poison, blind, slow, gravity and other DOT effects that mobs cause. The thing is, NONE of these effects last long enough or cause enough damage to even be considered a hurdle when combating normal mobs. I remember if you managed to get poisoned in Xi (i know, i mentioned Xi in this post, its now dead in the water) and your health was already in the yellow, you had some serious choices to make, and a short time to make them. The same goes for paralysis and the rest. The fact is, none of the skills 95% of the normal mobs utilize in this game stand out in any way as a challenge. This makes for little to no strategy requirments when fighting them, and whats worse SE chooses to junk up our inventory with medicines and materia to combat these things that are (since launch) absolutly pointless. Anyone doubting me should just go look up how much it costs to buy Chocobo Down, Funguar Shriek, or Treant Root Materia in the wards on ANY server.

This coupled with the complete lack of tactics employed by most mobs in the game makes for a fairly stagnent fighting enviroment. Kinda sad that an extinct bird known in RL for its less than awesome intelligence is the reigning champ in FFXIV for needing at least an afterthought as to how to take them down quickly and effectively.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I wish the mobs were just tougher in general. It's so easy, it's boring me to tears. No need for debuffs, no need for a real strategy. Just engage, use your best offensive ability, rinse, repeat.

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I agree with your thoughts and hope that 2.0 brings something a bit more challenging.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

You mean it doesnt feel FFXI-ish? Because you fight clusters oof mobs in other FF.

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Can't believe I'm agreeing with Char, but this.

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

People are so boring and keep suggesting one or the other on practically anything brought up on these forums. It's not black & white all the time.
Many people still see FF14 as a VERY slow game, the last thing we need is bland 1 monster battles with no mechanics or real strategy as the new standard.

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I agree, that if they add the one mob battles in addition to what we have, it would be super. But, as it stands now, the spam fest we face today, has no real strategy or mechanics, and is completely boring. Hey look at me pull 15 mobs and watch as blm's throw fire combos at it, and repeat process. wow, so hard :P

Biggs.
After you die for the 12th time to a Djigga's poison or the 20th time to a Snurble's Dia you come tell me that DoTs on a player don't matter, or when your archer gets bound when he pulls an aggro by accident and dies because of it.
Seriously!

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Originally Posted by Biggs

So, with the exception of mobs that are obviously higher level than the person fighting them, it has been a sad state of affairs when it comes to fighting most of the pathetic and unchallenging mobs that XIV has to offer. Whats even worse is the only mob that offers any sort of unique combat conditions in terms of strategy are the dodos. (i mean normal mobs here not bosses)

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You do realize that very tough and incredibly tough monsters in FFXI were, a minimum of six levels over the player fighting them, correct.

The gist of what you are saying is "Fighting Decent Challenge Mobs is trite and boring." To which I would agree, BECAUSE YOURE FIGHTING DECENT CHALLENGE MONSTERS!!!"

NEVER has a DC been an issue to fight when properly geared and subbed in FFXI, especially in situations that you would solo!!!!!

Why is this concept so hard to understand!? You are complaining about a field of monsters not designed to be engaged with in a group! Those that are, actually meet your demands.

If any sense is to be made of this constant complains "Whaah, there's no straggly with monsters that I can reasonably solo!" Is that monsters in raid or dungeon areas could use a flat level increase. And players who are seeking difficult and dynamic parties need to stop fighting things less than six levels above them (Idealy level 58 monsters.) The problem is, these monsters exist! They are avoided because the fights suddenly become 'too hard' for the average group to handle.

You are stating one thing and doing another. Complaining about the lack of challenge without seeking it.

As you level climb, do a solo leve 2 levels above yours and survive, if you can do that with ease, try three.

In parties, minimum of six levels above you.

You will see the difference. Attacking weak monsters and claiming there is no challenge in the game is not constructive thinking at all.

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

No. The point of final fantasy is supposed to be based around fighting epic hordes of monsters and proving that you're some kind of epic warrior of legends. Fighting one Goblin at a time doesn't really emulate that.

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Really??? Seriously whats so epic about killing mobs that are level 50 or 52? Shit I can solo 8-10 mobs that are level 50. Alll FFXIV is, is a spam fest. There is no strategy, there is nothing in the open world it is zerg everything. There is no epicness what-so-ever in killing anything in this game. This game is easy mode plain and simple!!

.. are you even trying to fight monsters above your level at all?

Again, this is the equivilant of people complaining that Decent Challenge monsters are too easy, completely ignoring the even match, tough, very tough, and incredibly tough monsters all together.

Go to Northern Thanalan and take on the camps of 54-59 Diremites.

Or the southern tip of Southern Thanalan and tick off the 57-59 Sphere Doblyns (47,53).

If you've got a well geared group they should be manageable, but if you mess up, they're going to mess you up.

Are to consider if you want single pull mobs with more difficulty are
Eastern La Noscea
Mor Dhonna
North Thanalan
West Shroud
Coerthas Central Highlands

The list goes on.

The levels for EP, DC, etc are different in this game.
You want to shoot for 60-69 type mobs or if you have a very skilled (powerful party) then go for the 70-79. If you want Epic but barely doable (there are videos of it being done) go for the Peiste mobs over in northern Mor Dhona. The levels range and how tough they are is different for sure. I would love to see your videos of destroying every mob and wiping the zone in the Mor Dhona region with ease. (please send the video)

These are doable mobs but you pull them 1 at a time. It is possible with a little effort to pull 1 at a time without link but not always easy at the 70-79 range. You want doable 1 mobs at a time with high risk that requires serious skill these upp levels are your goal.

If you want a more casual challenge with risk that you want to pull 1 at a time you want the 60-69 range.

If you want just something in your level region that you just simply cannot AOE pull and yawn, try Vilth Legion. Yes those are easy but you won't pull most of the camp in 1 shot, they fight back.

Another area is to farm the Magitech mobs, with a good party this area is farmable in small groups with a well skilled party. These you do pull in groups but have to use group management to get the magitech down and not get clobbered by the other mobs.

The challenges do exist you just have to seek them out. You cannot blame SE because you pick the EP mob and then nuke them down with a set of well geared BLMs. That is no different than clearing an area with a bunch of Samurai and pretty much no risk and saying why can't SE put in a mob with a challenge.

If you want a challege go see out a challenge. I don't want FFXIV to become the FFXI 1 mob game, however SE has already offered you the option of doing just that (with these higher mobs) while leaving the smaller groups to those that want it.

Enjoy your adventures in for now and look forward to the new ones in 2.0

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Originally Posted by KujinRen

I agree with your thoughts and hope that 2.0 brings something a bit more challenging.

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I don't. Trash mobs aren't supposed to be challenging unless you're reaching for a too high level monster. It's raid / dungeon / boss monsters and NMs that are meant to be challenging.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't. Trash mobs aren't supposed to be challenging unless you're reaching for a too high level monster. It's raid / dungeon / boss monsters and NMs that are meant to be challenging.

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I don't think people are thinking of the consequences of making EVERY monster hard in the game. Especially economically.

It'll become impossible to effectively farm several existing Leatherwork camps for one. That will spill over into price inflation for every corresponding item. You can't simply 'adjust drop rates to compensate' when the situation becomes far less survivable for many classes. As it stands in the Raptor camp, mages are required to farm the lower level ones in order to survive, and you have to be a crafty lancer to manage the higher level ones in groups - which are typically restricted to Monks and Warriors due to difficulty.

And none of this addresses my previous ideas in the least - why not simply make CONTENT designed for groups? Things like training Leves or smaller dungeons that are designed to give a sense of in depth combat for parties.

You have to balance field monsters for solo content and economic needs - not just the desire of a few old dogs wanting the, heh, 'glory days' of FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.
Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

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I guess Ill set the record straight on what -my- point was. To quote myself from earlier in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Some of you seem to be missing the point. Its not about how many monsters you fight, its about keeping control of the ones you do. Spamming abilities on monsters that you aren't even sure of their exact location because of the clusterfuck going on isn't Final Fantasy. Most of the Final Fantasies are turn based so it doesn't matter how many enemies you are fighting.

In case some of you weren't aware, trash pulls are actually allowed to be difficult content and not something that is just in the way of your reward. I'd rather have fight two or three challenging trash monsters than 8+ monsters that make it nearly impossible to determine who is hitting what.

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I never, not once, said that multiple monsters wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do. I said that spamfest wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do.

As for your example of fighting in previous titles, even if Lux_Rayna wasn't spot on, those tactics tend to be for end game leveling up or simply when you are getting too strong for the monsters you are fighting. When you are playing through those games, you don't spam your AOE abilities without care of what is the most important monster to kill first.

And for FF12, you can easily keep track of what the character you are playing as is doing in that game. I don't expect to be able to see every ability that every teammate does, but at least knowing what monster I am hitting would be nice.

The only problem I have with so many mobs is the fact that AOE wise all the classes/jobs are not equal. Take for instance a monk compared to a black Mage. the difference is huge in terms of AOE dmg output. Hopefully they add more AOE attacks for monks at higher levels (even if that makes little sense) cuz right now I wouldnt exactly call the game balanced on terms of AOE attacks between different jobs.

Yeah I just started FF1 again yesterday, OMW to first castle to save the princess I encountered 8 mobs in one battle. Fought 3 wolfs, 3 gremlin things, and 2 skeleton soldiers of course I got my ass handed to me.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

.. are you even trying to fight monsters above your level at all?

Again, this is the equivilant of people complaining that Decent Challenge monsters are too easy, completely ignoring the even match, tough, very tough, and incredibly tough monsters all together.

Go to Northern Thanalan and take on the camps of 54-59 Diremites.

Or the southern tip of Southern Thanalan and tick off the 57-59 Sphere Doblyns (47,53).

If you've got a well geared group they should be manageable, but if you mess up, they're going to mess you up.

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Unless you are talking about killing lvl 58 monsters for the simple joy of killing them, who cares what lvl 50 players can do. When you compare exp rates of monsters 6+ over the highest party member to 3-4+, you are going to be getting a lot less exp from monsters 6+ levels over. Unless you could handle a 4 link, the 3-4+ range is always going to be better because of the exp multiplier. I'm not even sure if a group leveling up could handle two monsters that are 8 levels over their group and when you only get 1k exp in the same time you could get 4k, its stupid not to use the spamfest tactics.

If you want to compare exp rate:challenge in relation to FFXI, there were no link multipliers and you couldn't chain monsters below even match. I'm sure groups would have used the same tactics in FFXI if they could get the same, if not more exp, per kill from fighting decent matches compared to incredibly tough.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Unless you are talking about killing lvl 58 monsters for the simple joy of killing them, who cares what lvl 50 players can do. When you compare exp rates of monsters 6+ over the highest party member to 3-4+, you are going to be getting a lot less exp from monsters 6+ levels over. Unless you could handle a 4 link, the 3-4+ range is always going to be better because of the exp multiplier. I'm not even sure if a group leveling up could handle two monsters that are 8 levels over their group and when you only get 1k exp in the same time you could get 4k, its stupid not to use the spamfest tactics.

If you want to compare exp rate:challenge in relation to FFXI, there were no link multipliers and you couldn't chain monsters below even match. I'm sure groups would have used the same tactics in FFXI if they could get the same, if not more exp, per kill from fighting decent matches compared to incredibly tough.

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Go kill an H-1 Lv. 63-64 armor in the new stronghold and tell me how that went. It's for keys you can make gears of it!

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Originally Posted by Firon

Go kill an H-1 Lv. 63-64 armor in the new stronghold and tell me how that went. It's for keys you can make gears of it!

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That is supposed to be challenging, not used for xp. Not sure what you are trying to prove with that statement.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Unless you are talking about killing lvl 58 monsters for the simple joy of killing them, who cares what lvl 50 players can do. When you compare exp rates of monsters 6+ over the highest party member to 3-4+, you are going to be getting a lot less exp from monsters 6+ levels over. Unless you could handle a 4 link, the 3-4+ range is always going to be better because of the exp multiplier. I'm not even sure if a group leveling up could handle two monsters that are 8 levels over their group and when you only get 1k exp in the same time you could get 4k, its stupid not to use the spamfest tactics.

If you want to compare exp rate:challenge in relation to FFXI, there were no link multipliers and you couldn't chain monsters below even match. I'm sure groups would have used the same tactics in FFXI if they could get the same, if not more exp, per kill from fighting decent matches compared to incredibly tough.

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But between that stance and the one you just previously clarified, you've stated a "I want to keep my cake and eat it too." Argument.

If you're wanting fights that are slower paced and you want have a full standing ideal control over, you're going to lose out on EXP rate. Even if you toughen the monsters in general, it will only serve to change which monsters or which means players will exploit the system to kill the monsters for the best XP yeild.

To create an alternate system of leader + Links (Tougher mobs vs weaker)which wound up being canceled because it narrowed the use of the camps drastically. Now we have groups of monsters that link depending on the strength of your party.

The issue you're having, spam-happy camps where you cannot find or maintain a certain target, is actually the result of several other problems collecting together to create your issue.

First off, your ability to see what is going on in battle - is mostly a UI issue. This can be somewhat controlled with proper use of Chat Filters, but mostly you'll see an improvement in targeting, monster hate understanding and the general flow of the battle once 2.0 hits.

Now your issue with enemies dieing too fast is a matter primarily of target choice. Weaker monsters die fast to AoEs and players who want to see an easy means of getting XP or Spirit bond will always choose the path of least resistance.

However, buttoning up these avenues is not something Yoshi, nor a good number of the players, support. So instead of narrowing the field of choices, the solution should be providing alternative choices - something that is more tacticly orientated that has a comparable reward system.

Primarily what we have for that right now is Raids, and that needs to be expanded upon. The problem with the arguments you are making for your desires on the game is that you're trying to back it up with reasoning that are flawed and unimaginative, not the raw desire that you want something different from AoEs.

You made that mistake right at your thread title. Flat out removing content is never a nice thing to do, period. Ideally what you want to do is create more options for people who have different playstyles and desires, so that like-minded players can find one another and do the things they enjoy together.

We can argue on what someone could or could not keep track of, or whether or not you decided to AoE farm in a Final Fantasy game or not (I distinctly recall a certain camp near the elf kingdom in FF1 in which my primary means of getting XP was AoE blasting a bunch of weak monsters over and over again.) But the primary point behind that argument is that people's desires and play methods widely differ - as wide as their differing opinions on what makes a Final Fantasy.

I'd like to get you to agree as far as that point - instead of removing content in existence, to add another layer to the game that accommodates your desires, before progressing here. Otherwise what you are asking is to limit the experience for other players as opposed to enrich it - a point that hits a conversational brick wall with me.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Biggs.
After you die for the 12th time to a Djigga's poison or the 20th time to a Snurble's Dia you come tell me that DoTs on a player don't matter, or when your archer gets bound when he pulls an aggro by accident and dies because of it.
Seriously!

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If all that is as serious as you say, then explain to me why noone spends any effort making medicines to combat those things, or bothers using materia that bolsters the defense against the very things your saying. I am not claiming these things NEVER happen, I am stating that they happen so infrequently there is no reason to plan ahead of time for them. When is the last time you used an antidote or thought about beefing your boots up with chocobo down materia? The fact is, you haven't, because there is no reason too.

No where in my post did I say these things don't exist in the game, only that they are used so sparsly and with such little effect, most of the player base doesn't go into the field concerned with what will happen if they get paralyzed in a fight or poisoned when out on there on own.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You do realize that very tough and incredibly tough monsters in FFXI were, a minimum of six levels over the player fighting them, correct.

The gist of what you are saying is "Fighting Decent Challenge Mobs is trite and boring." To which I would agree, BECAUSE YOURE FIGHTING DECENT CHALLENGE MONSTERS!!!"

NEVER has a DC been an issue to fight when properly geared and subbed in FFXI, especially in situations that you would solo!!!!!

Why is this concept so hard to understand!? You are complaining about a field of monsters not designed to be engaged with in a group! Those that are, actually meet your demands.

You are stating one thing and doing another. Complaining about the lack of challenge without seeking it.

As you level climb, do a solo leve 2 levels above yours and survive, if you can do that with ease, try three.

In parties, minimum of six levels above you.

You will see the difference. Attacking weak monsters and claiming there is no challenge in the game is not constructive thinking at all.

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First, you don't need to give me the gist of what I am saying, I know what I said. Second, you make a HUGE amount of assumptions about how I play the game without knowing a single thing about me. Third, for the purpose of my post, pretend I was only talking about mobs you would solo or party against for xp. When I said "obviously higher mobs" in my op i was referring to things 12 levels or higher that no one person or party would have any business messing with. I am well aware that DC mobs aren't an issue, so lets put this another way:

Say your party pulls a group of beastmen that contain the jobs of archer, conj, and warrior. Now ideally the archer would use bind effects on top of its normal damage output, thereby mucking up either the tank or one of the healers in your party, the conj would cast cure spells to keep its party members alive longer, and the warrior would dive right into AOE DD's that would hit more than just the party's tank. The fact is all of these things DO happen already, however they aren't done in any way that really actually hinders your party for more than a few seconds. The conj mob ussually only cures itself, the bind effect caused by archers lasts for all of about 10 seconds, and (most of the time) war style mobs only use single target DD skills. These things are in the game, but not at any level that requires any sort of tactic besides spam AOE move, and wait out DOT effects for 10 seconds. Not challenging. Not stimulating. And after a few dozen times, not really all that fun.

I feel a little alone when I say this, but I love the amount of mobs you fight in FFXIV. I also enjoy endless combo chains as a dragoon.

Biggs, I apologize. The first part of my post was directed at you, the rest was a rant in general and not.

Now onto the subject matter.

No matter what you do, the fights when repeated ad naseum will dissolve yourself into a grind. Any player with a modicum of experience in FFXI or any other grind-based MMO will understand this. Also, if you've enough sense to pay attention to the trends, you realize that no matter what fights are 'interesting' people will always pick the safest, most mundane, and most profitable means of gaining XP/Hr with the least amount of effort - period, end of discussion.

You do not grind for stimulation, you grind to push out XP and to get levels. That's it. It's never been and can never be an entertaining proposition as it is presented in any of your arguments.

To also speak on the subject of beastmen camps. It all depends on what beastmen camps you chose. For example, if you attack a NM surrounded by a pack of mages, and your tank is too close to your party, you're going to have a bad time due to Spell spam. The fights in lower end strongholds do wind up being chaotic, but to some, that's half the fun of it. Now, you do that for four hours on end, of course you're going to get bored of it. And if you do ONLY that, you're going to get bored sick of it and not want to do it again.

Some people, however, are find with those camps as is. And for good reason. For those who DO NOT AoE spam, due to availability (Say it's just a pair of people going in quick to grab a few tapers) the fights are much more involved, entertaining, an accessible. And the deeper you go in, the more difficult those fights even with parties, as more NMs, and stronger mob variants become available.

You make these fights any more in depth then the current trend, I guarantee you that they will get skipped for something easier. Look how quickly Castra Novum became a no-man's land, in spite of the valuables that are there.

You can't excerpt the level of control you're asking for in an open environment an expect it to be successful. Additionally attempting to create that in an open environment on the level which you are requesting, which is a global change for all monsters, would in fact be a game-breaker for many. Again, taking away options isn't healthy unless it's a blatant exploit. And I wouldn't call AoE Burns an exploit - especially seeming Yoshi has already stated support for power leveling, which is far more on the darker shade of grey.

I do agree that there should be an outlet for the desire to XP as a party, in situations that has you deeply engaged into the combat. I do not agree that it should come at the cost of current methods that players chose.