Concerns about Content Finder, Drops, and Difficulty Settings for EG.

I actually like this idea. Not that I can't complete the content, but the easy setting would teach the new or inexperienced players how to do content or how it's done. And can be a precursor to the harder content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drivendawn

100 percent agree with op not everybody has time to grind hard shit over and over to get just the win. Some people are average players who for the effort deserve decent gear and for the hardcore the last lvl of difficulty for best gear not stupid better either. Plus they get bragging rights and achievement for it.

---

I disagree with you on this statement and thats because what ever the reward is you should EARN it not have it given to you. Any decent player can run these dungeons with out an issue so this point is moot. The reason decent players dont have the good gear is because of how the DEV's designed the drop rates, not because they cant spend hours running the dungeons a day.

I disagree with different tier's of difficulty. Reason being it dosent matter if you are a casual or hardcore you can still do the content. It may take longer but thats ok. I see no reason to having 3 different tier's of content. Even a casual that plays a few hours a day can get a party going and do a few runs.

This easy mode stuff needs to stop, there's no reason to have everything on easy mode. All end game content needs to be difficult not put on easy mode or normal mode.

I forsee the loss of gear with the content finder.people going in between servers SE will glitch it at start lol. Say you win the drop and get ported back to your server and its not in your invo....

just see this happening and also the chance of someone ninja lotting you and poofing away back to their server. SE needs to be very careful with how they manage the drop system in content finder

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxthunder

I disagree with you on this statement and thats because what ever the reward is you should EARN it not have it given to you. Any decent player can run these dungeons with out an issue so this point is moot. The reason decent players dont have the good gear is because of how the DEV's designed the drop rates, not because they cant spend hours running the dungeons a day.

I disagree with different tier's of difficulty. Reason being it dosent matter if you are a casual or hardcore you can still do the content. It may take longer but thats ok. I see no reason to having 3 different tier's of content. Even a casual that plays a few hours a day can get a party going and do a few runs.

This easy mode stuff needs to stop, there's no reason to have everything on easy mode. All end game content needs to be difficult not put on easy mode or normal mode.

---

I wouldn't go as far as to say there shouldn't be an easy mode, but any easy mode should not have end game loot.
It's like how modern games have an "easy" setting so people can enjoy the game without getting mad at it for losing, but a lot of games you don't Achievements (for us this would be like loot) for completing the game on easy.

As for your other point, I agree. The people who have full darklight sets currently are just people who spam content repeatedly or just got lucky and even a lot of the hardcore gamers can't deal with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxthunder

I disagree with you on this statement and thats because what ever the reward is you should EARN it not have it given to you. Any decent player can run these dungeons with out an issue so this point is moot. The reason decent players dont have the good gear is because of how the DEV's designed the drop rates, not because they cant spend hours running the dungeons a day.

I disagree with different tier's of difficulty. Reason being it dosent matter if you are a casual or hardcore you can still do the content. It may take longer but thats ok. I see no reason to having 3 different tier's of content. Even a casual that plays a few hours a day can get a party going and do a few runs.

This easy mode stuff needs to stop, there's no reason to have everything on easy mode. All end game content needs to be difficult not put on easy mode or normal mode.

---

Yea, I think you need to chill out a bit. Your kind of coming off as an elitist. Everyone that pays for this game should be able to "FULLY" experience the entirety of the EG content. We want this game to be inviting to the casual players, and lets face it, casual players are the vast majority of subs in an MMO. Thats a fact. I myself lean more towards the hardcore gaming, but I am not so selfish as to only want the best for myself to the potential ruin of this game.

And I cant beleive another person came into this thread with the skewed view that EG content isnt hard. Have you even played other MMOs? I have never played an MMO with harder EG content (from the current generation of games). Compared to FFXI and WoW and just about anything else out there, FFXIV is ridiculously harder. I would say that all the primal battles and Dungeons (with the exception of Darkhold currently) range in difficulty from hard to too Hard for the average MMO player. As I said before either you are a badass or you are a liar, because thats the only excuse I can think of for you to call any of the content (aside from DH) easy and suitable for the casual player. Its not just about drop rate.

FFXIV failed horribly once already. Few games get a 2nd chance. FFXIV 2.0 has one more chance to get it right, the game needs to be nearly freaking perfect. Period. And I dont think anything I have suggested would kill gameplay or hurt hardcore players. If you think I have, then you are being wholly unreasonable and willfully ignorant.

As for the difference in gear from one difficulty tier to the next, I dont know what SE is planning. I just think they need to be cautious about how they approach it. The example I gave was just that, an example. However, anyone that thinks they deserve to get gear that is vastly superior to the Normal mode gear, are not grounded in reality. Hard mode is a step up from Normal, therefore the gear should only be a step up. Not night and day. I promise you I have many casual friends and family that will not play this game if you grind normal dungeons and get gear that makes you feel like you are being punished for not being hardcore enough. And it would potentially be a death nail to this game. If you think I'm exagerating, youve been caught up in the FFXIV EG scene for too long and have begun drinking the Kool-aid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I actually like this idea. Not that I can't complete the content, but the easy setting would teach the new or inexperienced players how to do content or how it's done. And can be a precursor to the harder content.

---

Thanks for the support. And you make a good point about using easy mode content as a training ground for casuals to gain experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragon

Maybe because hard mode takes more effort, time, and skill than normal mode? Ever thought about that?

---

So your sayin that with hard mode just being a step up from normal mode that the difference should be like night and day on the gear. I and betting others would beg to differ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rau

A beacon of logic shines through the darkness of the Final Fantasy XIV forums.

---

You guys don't listen. They aren't saying that jo-shmo can just go in there and play it on stupid easy mode and get bad ass gear. They're simply saying that hard mode shouldn't be LEAGUES ahead of normal mode. It should be better, but let's be a bit reasonable. EG is so involved and difficult for most players coming in they'll be hard pressed. Having a difficulty that's a step down from the hardmode with gear that's a step down is not unreasonable. You guys are talkin' like casual players shouldn't get a damn thing. Many folks who like to play this game and want to participate in EG aren't able to spend nearly as much time as other people and shouldn't be handed a terd for good effort they put into it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drivendawn

So your sayin that with hard mode just being a step up from normal mode that the difference should be like night and day on the gear. I and betting others would beg to differ.

---

"I" didn't say that.

I was very clear about why hard mode should have better gear; it's your own problem to believe that better implies something as grossly over-exaggerated as "night and day" differences.

Now, tell me why just because you're doing ezmode, you should get gear hardly any different than what more skillful modes offer.

While I in part agree with the OP, I'd be more worried about what dungeon design is going to be like once 2.0 launches. Will we get more of "run to a beacon to make all mobs vanish", or will get start getting "fight your way through the dungeon, complete objectives and fight bosses with interesting mechanics".

On content finder and difficulty levels, I would set it up as such:

Normal Mode: Not insanely difficult and not requiring people to be over the top with gear in order to clear.
Hard Mode: The "canon" version of the instance. Requiring people to know how to stat but not take it to super extremes.
Hard mode +1: Hard Mode but with a time limit. If you take too long you get booted from the instance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

However, anyone that thinks they deserve to get gear that is vastly superior to the Normal mode gear, are not grounded in reality. Hard mode is a step up from Normal, therefore the gear should only be a step up. Not night and day. I promise you I have many casual friends and family that will not play this game if you grind normal dungeons and get gear that makes you feel like you are being punished for not being hardcore enough. And it would potentially be a death nail to this game. If you think I'm exagerating, youve been caught up in the FFXIV EG scene for too long and have begun drinking the Kool-aid.

---

First off, let me get this strawman argument out of the way. No one here is saying the difference should be like day and night when it comes to how much better the gear is. The only thing anyone has said is that it should noticeable and be worth your time and effort to beat hard mode instead of "Hard mode version gives you 3 more STR over normal mode, derp."
It kills incentive to thrive and better yourself when the work it takes to go through hardcore content does not reflect the reward.

And your "promise" is in fact false. I know plenty of people who can not for the life of them beat Ifrit, Moogle, CC, AV or even the final Job quest that still play the game and enjoy it. Have I ever heard anyone complain about being punished? No. Not once.

And it's funny seeing you talk about the death of this game when one of the nails in 1.0's coffin was catering to casuals WAY too much at the start and the only life it has now is catering to the hardcore who are sticking through with it.

lt;dr Don't try to punish the hardcore because you want them to be brought down to your level. Also, please stop talking like you know how to make a successful FF game and leave it to the dev team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drivendawn

So your sayin that with hard mode just being a step up from normal mode that the difference should be like night and day on the gear. I and betting others would beg to differ.

---

Please read the first part of my post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragon

"I" didn't say that.

I was very clear about why hard mode should have better gear; it's your own problem to believe that better implies something as grossly over-exaggerated as "night and day" differences.

Now, tell me why just because you're doing ezmode, you should get gear hardly any different than what more skillful modes offer.

---

I never said ezmode i said normal and never said hardly different. It stands to reason if hard mode is a step up in difficulty that the gear would also be a step up.
I made very clear on my last post " Ok,still not seeing how its fare to make hard modes gear retardedly better than normal mode." It doesn't look like you're reading my posts very carefully dude, cause you replied to this with "Maybe because hard mode takes more effort, time, and skill than normal mode? Ever thought about that?" Maybe you missed it cause I misspelled retardedly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

First off, let me get this strawman argument out of the way. No one here is saying the difference should be like day and night when it comes to how much better the gear is. The only thing anyone has said is that it should noticeable and be worth your time and effort to beat hard mode instead of "Hard mode version gives you 3 more STR over normal mode, derp."

---

Based on past experience, the rule of item scaling is that hard mode gear is usually about 5-7 item levels higher than normal mode gear. There shouldn't be that large a discrepancy between normal mode and hard mode.

Quote:

---

And it's funny seeing you talk about the death of this game when one of the nails in 1.0's coffin was catering to casuals WAY too much at the start and the only life it has now is catering to the hardcore who are sticking through with it.

---

Not really. 1.0's launch mistake was trying to force people to play casually. That's why surplus and fatigue were implemented in the first place. Poor stat presentation and an obviously unpolished game system just aggravated the problem.

As far as what they're going now, the only reason they're doing that is because the game seriously lacks content with reasonably rewards and pacing. Anyone who can look beyond their nose knows this. Why design 11 dungeons with multiple bosses spread throughout the 1-50 leveling process for a game that will vanish once 2.0 hits?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

First off, let me get this strawman argument out of the way. No one here is saying the difference should be like day and night when it comes to how much better the gear is. The only thing anyone has said is that it should noticeable and be worth your time and effort to beat hard mode instead of "Hard mode version gives you 3 more STR over normal mode, derp."
It kills incentive to thrive and better yourself when the work it takes to go through hardcore content does not reflect the reward.

And your "promise" is in fact false. I know plenty of people who can not for the life of them beat Ifrit, Moogle, CC, AV or even the final Job quest that still play the game and enjoy it. Have I ever heard anyone complain about being punished? No. Not once.

And it's funny seeing you talk about the death of this game when one of the nails in 1.0's coffin was catering to casuals WAY too much at the start and the only life it has now is catering to the hardcore who are sticking through with it.

lt;dr Don't try to punish the hardcore because you want them to be brought down to your level. Also, please stop talking like you know how to make a successful FF game and leave it to the dev team.



Please read the first part of my post.

---

Focusing a bit too much on little things. I did say my example was a simple EXAMPLE.

Actually there are many more casuals than there are hardcore, and you cant account for a small sampling of this games already small population even if that wasnt the case. So Im pretty damn sure my promise atill holds for the silent majority. Nice try though.

And NO, the game didnt almost die due to catering to casuals LOL. It was because the game was an abomiantion and unplayable. The other major reason was because the classes lacked uniqueness and everyone could be All-in-Ones.

Leave it to the Dev team.................. Yes becasue the last one did a bang up job didnt they?

Next!

I don't think folks are getting what Amsai is saying. I'm pretty sure that was a small example. That obviously wouldn't be the only stat -- +3 str derp! -- Let's get a better example:

This is what a normal mode drk/lgt cowl would have -- MP : +120, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +15, Int : +15, Pty : +15, Evasion : -20, Refresh : +3

This is what a hard mode drk/lgt cowl would have --MP : +125, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +18, Int : +18, Pty : +18, Evasion : -18, Refresh : +4

Okay. Now... Playing hardmode and getting all of the pieces of gear with the same differences in stats you see in exhibit B above, you'll find that it's quite the noticable difference from the complete set of normal mode gear's stats. At the same time, it's not an unfair difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

Not really. 1.0's launch mistake was trying to force people to play casually. That's why surplus and fatigue were implemented in the first place. Poor stat presentation and an obviously unpolished game system just aggravated the problem.

As far as what they're going now, the only reason they're doing that is because the game seriously lacks content with reasonably rewards and pacing. Anyone who can look beyond their nose knows this. Why design 11 dungeons with multiple bosses spread throughout the 1-50 leveling process for a game that will vanish once 2.0 hits?

---

That is probably more accurate than my statement in regards to the game being too casual. But with 2.0 there will be a lot of content, (or so they say) and adding hard difficulty only stretches the content. I really don't see a problem with hard modes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

Focusing a bit too much on little things. I did say my example was a simple EXAMPLE.

Actually there are many more casuals than there are hardcore, and you cant account for a small sampling of this games already small population even if that wasnt the case. So Im pretty damn sure my promise atill holds for the silent majority. Nice try though.

And NO, the game didnt almost die due to catering to casuals LOL. It was because the game was an abomiantion and unplayable. The other major reason was because the classes lacked uniqueness and everyone could be All-in-Ones.

Leave it to the Dev team.................. Yes becasue the last one did a bang up job didnt they?

Next!

---

An example is still an example and I disagree with your example. I also fail to see how I am "focusing on the little things". From what I understand you are trying to argue for the difficulty level should almost not at all reflect the quality of the gear and I disagree with that intensly.

And so what you are saying is that minorities shouldn't get equal treatment? You're saying that just because more people thats subscribe are casual, that hardcore players should be ignored? Well that shows your bias.

Also, I didn't say the game almost died because they catered to casuals. I said it was mearly a nail in a coffin that was almost closed shut before Yoshi.

And to your "leave it to the last one" it's almost entirely the same dev team. The games state wasn't their fault either. They had to adhere to the dev director Tanaka who had an unfinished vision of a game, which it wasn't his fault either. It was the people in charge who made them push out the game before it was ready. But 2.0 won't be pushed out before it's ready seeing as they learned their lesson.

/insert word insinuating that I've "beaten" you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yusuke

I don't think folks are getting what Amsai is saying. I'm pretty sure that was a small example. That obviously wouldn't be the only stat -- +3 str derp! -- Let's get a better example:

This is what a normal mode drk/lgt cowl would have -- MP : +120, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +15, Int : +15, Pty : +15, Evasion : -20, Refresh : +3

This is what a hard mode drk/lgt cowl would have --MP : +125, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +18, Int : +18, Pty : +18, Evasion : -18, Refresh : +4

Okay. Now... Playing hardmode and getting all of the pieces of gear with the same differences in stats you see in exhibit B above, you'll find that it's quite the noticable difference from the complete set of normal mode gear's stats. At the same time, it's not an unfair difference.

---

Still seems a little lowballing to me, but I guess that's opinion.
To me you need to be able to see the difference and that is hardly one at that.

I'm not arguing for insane day and night differences, but your example there seems a bit weak imo.

As long as there are scaled rewards and "Casual" players don't demand the same rewards as "Hardcore" players, this is fine, and sounds like a great idea.
But
When is it ever that easy?
There will always be those who demand more for nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Still seems a little lowballing to me, but I guess that's opinion.
To me you need to be able to see the difference and that is hardly one at that.

I'm not arguing for insane day and night differences, but your example there seems a bit weak imo.

---

Then please elaborate, with what you think. Taking that one piece hard mode gear that Yusuke submitted and adding it up with the rest of the set that's similarly adjusted is actually a lot! If +6 to +10 extra on each stat of each piece of gear is what you had in mind then, yes; That would be night and day differences to me and very OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

Yea, I think you need to chill out a bit. Your kind of coming off as an elitist. Everyone that pays for this game should be able to "FULLY" experience the entirety of the EG content. We want this game to be inviting to the casual players, and lets face it, casual players are the vast majority of subs in an MMO. Thats a fact. I myself lean more towards the hardcore gaming, but I am not so selfish as to only want the best for myself to the potential ruin of this game.

And I cant beleive another person came into this thread with the skewed view that EG content isnt hard. Have you even played other MMOs? I have never played an MMO with harder EG content (from the current generation of games). Compared to FFXI and WoW and just about anything else out there, FFXIV is ridiculously harder. I would say that all the primal battles and Dungeons (with the exception of Darkhold currently) range in difficulty from hard to too Hard for the average MMO player. As I said before either you are a badass or you are a liar, because thats the only excuse I can think of for you to call any of the content (aside from DH) easy and suitable for the casual player. Its not just about drop rate.

FFXIV failed horribly once already. Few games get a 2nd chance. FFXIV 2.0 has one more chance to get it right, the game needs to be nearly freaking perfect. Period. And I dont think anything I have suggested would kill gameplay or hurt hardcore players. If you think I have, then you are being wholly unreasonable and willfully ignorant.

As for the difference in gear from one difficulty tier to the next, I dont know what SE is planning. I just think they need to be cautious about how they approach it. The example I gave was just that, an example. However, anyone that thinks they deserve to get gear that is vastly superior to the Normal mode gear, are not grounded in reality. Hard mode is a step up from Normal, therefore the gear should only be a step up. Not night and day. I promise you I have many casual friends and family that will not play this game if you grind normal dungeons and get gear that makes you feel like you are being punished for not being hardcore enough. And it would potentially be a death nail to this game. If you think I'm exagerating, youve been caught up in the FFXIV EG scene for too long and have begun drinking the Kool-aid.

---

I believe in earning what ever reward it is. I understand some players cant do it for whatever reason, but even the worst players should beable to clear endgame content w/o there being a baby mode. None of the current content is HARD, even garuda isnt hard once you understand what needs to be done. The issue is players need to be on the same page when they do garuda or any content. Now just waiting till the casuals (and there will be some) get to ifrit extreme, this forums gonna light up like a christmas tree.

I dont care if your hardcore or casual, because there is no reason either group can not clear content that is HARD. Will it take some work yes, but when you finally actually complete the content most if not all will look back and say "that wasnt hard" or "that was easy". Now even if some 1 has a few hours a day there is still no reason that they should not beable to clear any content. Will it take longer to clear yes but they still will beable to clear harder content. The way I see it from all the complaints is players want things easier, and honestly you cant get any easier than the content we have right now.

I have done every piece of endgame in FFXIV yes at 1st its tough because players need to learn it, but once you learn it, its another story. I have players say hamlets are hard but they are not hard, they are a cake walk. Nothing is hard once you learn how to complete it, yes it might be annoying, it may still be challenging, but you will complete it again.


Your last statement: ( I promise you I have many casual friends and family that will not play this game if you grind normal dungeons and get gear that makes you feel like you are being punished for not being hardcore enough. And it would potentially be a death nail to this game. )

This statement has been addressed by yoshi and it dose in fact relate to drop rates and unfortunatly we all have to wait till 2.0. As I see it some casuals are mad because of this and I know some hardcore who have the same issue, and it is all because the DEV's for right now have chosen to keep the drop rates that are so low that it isnt funny. Now I ask you what do you think would be the rewards for an easy or a normal mode? I can give you the answer but you wont like it and thats more G5 or grade 5 dark matter. If you want better gear you can craft it and meld materia to it or go for darklight, players already have a choice but instead it seems players just want things easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drivendawn

Then please elaborate, with what you think. Taking that one piece hard mode gear that Yusuke submitted and adding it up with the rest of the set that's similarly adjusted is actually a lot! If +6 to +10 extra on each stat of each piece of gear is what you had in mind then, yes; That would be night and day differences to me and very OP.

---

5 MP increase across 5 peices of gear is +25 mp. What can you do with 25 MP.
Increase in 3 INT for (at best) 5 peices of gear is 15. You don't notice 15 INT.
I can keep going but you get my point.

Look at the difference between any crafted gear even +1 and a double meld and then look at Darklight. Darklight is still ahead. You got +1 Raptorskin Gloves with 50 Attack Power from a double meld? Darklight Gauntlets have that, and more. This is what I'm talking about.
In this game small stats don't make a big difference, you need big changes to see anything. However, in 2.0 things may change and small changes like +3 here +5 there may actually mean something. Then and only then will it be acceptable.

Yusuke and Driven get it, I dont see why some of you dont? Also if nothing else, how can anything I say be a bad thing. Is like im suggesting chocolate and vanilla and some are angry proclaiming there should only be chocolate. There is plenty of room for both. And Yusuke spelled it out pretty well, I think that his example is prefectly fair and reasonable. And not lowballing it at all. Once those little bit of stats from all peices of gear add up, its a pretty significant increase.


@Maxthunder: Agree to disagree? Sorry man, when it comes to current content difficulties, I flatly disagree, and there is nothing you could say or do to make me think different. Drops and drop rates are something Im willing to debate on, but Its as I said you are either a badass or a liar when it comes to difficulty topic. I am going to guess that you must be a badass. I am no slouch myself, but I can't look back on the content I have beaten, and beaten repeatedly; and think it was easy. It was hard as nails dude, and I had to kick and fight my way painstakingly to the point that it became easy. There is simply no reason for that. And all I am saying is too give everyone the ability to reasonably complete a dungeon, and currently I find it unreasonable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yusuke

I don't think folks are getting what Amsai is saying. I'm pretty sure that was a small example. That obviously wouldn't be the only stat -- +3 str derp! -- Let's get a better example:

This is what a normal mode drk/lgt cowl would have -- MP : +120, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +15, Int : +15, Pty : +15, Evasion : -20, Refresh : +3

This is what a hard mode drk/lgt cowl would have --MP : +125, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +18, Int : +18, Pty : +18, Evasion : -18, Refresh : +4

Okay. Now... Playing hardmode and getting all of the pieces of gear with the same differences in stats you see in exhibit B above, you'll find that it's quite the noticable difference from the complete set of normal mode gear's stats. At the same time, it's not an unfair difference.

---

That wouldn't even be close to a night'n'day example, and honestly wouldn't even be worth doing hardmode for outside of elitist groups that always want their gear maxed. Hell, that's also forgetting the fact that Yoshi has made it clear that U/U gear will never be better than double-melded gear, so even if there was hardcore gear, you can bet it'd be no better than double-melded (or maybe triple-melded) gear.

Ultimately, the complaints should be about the lack of hardcore gear and hardcore content altogether since aside from the relic (which isn't really hardcore, just mostly RNG-inducing aside from Ifrit Extreme), there has been no hardcore content whatsoever. But no, instead, anyone that mentions how hardcore content could be introduced (often enough, even in a manner to make it accessible to the casual playerbase), there is a "casual" player complaining demanding the game completely catering to the casual market while foregoing the fact the game is already centered around a casual playstyle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

5 MP increase across 5 peices of gear is +25 mp. What can you do with 25 MP.
Increase in 3 INT for (at best) 5 peices of gear is 15. You don't notice 15 INT.
I can keep going but you get my point.

Look at the difference between any crafted gear even +1 and a double meld and then look at Darklight. Darklight is still ahead. You got +1 Raptorskin Gloves with 50 Attack Power from a double meld? Darklight Gauntlets have that, and more. This is what I'm talking about.
In this game small stats don't make a big difference, you need big changes to see anything. However, in 2.0 things may change and small changes like +3 here +5 there may actually mean something. Then and only then will it be acceptable.

---

The only thing I will agree with is HPs and MPs and Defense, those do need a bit more of a punch up, but the base stats always matter. Saying +15 INT is not noticable is simply not true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

Yusuke and Driven get it, I dont see why some of you dont? Also if nothing else, how can anything I say be a bad thing. Is like im suggesting chocolate and vanilla and some are angry proclaiming there should only be chocolate. There is plenty of room for both. And Yusuke spelled it out pretty well, I think that his example is prefectly fair and reasonable. And not lowballing it at all. Once those little bit of stats from all peices of gear add up, its a pretty significant increase.


@Maxthunder: Agree to disagree? Sorry man, when it comes to current content difficulties, I flatly disagree, and there is nothing you could say or do to make me think different. Drops and drop rates are something Im willing to debate on, but Its as I said you are either a badass or a liar when it comes to difficulty topic. I am going to guess that you must be a badass. I am no slouch myself, but I can't look back on the content I have beaten, and beaten repeatedly; and think it was easy. It was hard as nails dude, and I had to kick and fight my way painstakingly to the point that it became easy. There is simply no reason for that. And all I am saying is too give everyone the ability to reasonably complete a dungeon, and currently I find it unreasonable.

---

No, what you are saying is that casual content drops should be almost as good as hard content drops. I disagree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

The only thing I will agree with is HPs and MPs and Defense, those do need a bit more of a punch up, but the base stats always matter. Saying +15 INT is not noticable is simply not true.

---

Forgot to put on all my jewlery for and my belt for Ifrit. Mages Ring, INT ring (+15), My Spindel Choker and Serpent Sergeant's Belt. Didn't notice until after the run when I checked my gear,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

The only thing I will agree with is HPs and MPs and Defense, those do need a bit more of a punch up, but the base stats always matter. Saying +15 INT is not noticable is simply not true.

---

+15 INT is even less noticeable in FFXIV than it ever was in FFXI; at 50 my BLM has 269 INT, just +15 isn't going to do enough to make it worth getting.

(Just an FYI: you're sounding like an elitist telling us how that small change is worth it...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

That is probably more accurate than my statement in regards to the game being too casual. But with 2.0 there will be a lot of content, (or so they say) and adding hard difficulty only stretches the content. I really don't see a problem with hard modes.

---

I don't see a problem with hard modes either. What I have a problem with is dungeon design that gives no visible rewards and shows no sort of progression, hard modes being THE content instead of a branch of content, and hard mode gear being exponentially more powerful than regular mode gear. That's why I'd suggest Normal Mode, Hard Mode and Hard Mode +1 scaling if you absolutely have to have more than two echelons.

Games like WoW understand this, which is why they're implementing challenge modes for dungeons to see if that provides the challenge the hardcores so desire without upsetting the balance of power (more than the buff-nerf rollercoaster does, anyway).

*puts on Scholar's Mortarboard*

For those who didn't know, Challenge Modes are basically much like our speed runs, but with forced stat caps so that your group doesn't out-level or out-stat the dungeon. The rewards include achievements and gear with unique appearances for transmogrification (no stats). Your rewards are determined by the amount of time it would take to clear the dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

I don't see a problem with hard modes either. What I have a problem with is dungeon design that gives no visible rewards and shows no sort of progression, hard modes being THE content instead of a branch of content, and hard mode gear being exponentially more powerful than regular mode gear. That's why I'd suggest Normal Mode, Hard Mode and Hard Mode +1 scaling if you absolutely have to have more than two echelons.

Games like WoW understand this, which is why they're implementing challenge modes for dungeons to see if that provides the challenge the hardcores so desire without upsetting the balance of power (more than the buff-nerf rollercoaster does, anyway).

*puts on Scholar's Mortarboard*

For those who didn't know, Challenge Modes are basically much like our speed runs, but with forced stat caps so that your group doesn't out-level or out-stat the dungeon. The rewards include achievements and gear with unique appearances for transmogrification (no stats). Your rewards are determined by the amount of time it would take to clear the dungeon.

---

Well seeing as they said there will be drops for all difficulties, I don't see the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragon

That wouldn't even be close to a night'n'day example, and honestly wouldn't even be worth doing hardmode for outside of elitist groups that always want their gear maxed. Hell, that's also forgetting the fact that Yoshi has made it clear that U/U gear will never be better than double-melded gear, so even if there was hardcore gear, you can bet it'd be no better than double-melded (or maybe triple-melded) gear.

Ultimately, the complaints should be about the lack of hardcore gear and hardcore content altogether since aside from the relic (which isn't really hardcore, just mostly RNG-inducing aside from Ifrit Extreme), there has been no hardcore content whatsoever. But no, instead, anyone that mentions how hardcore content could be introduced (often enough, even in a manner to make it accessible to the casual playerbase), there is a "casual" player complaining demanding the game completely catering to the casual market while foregoing the fact the game is already centered around a casual playstyle.

---

I can give you a lot of examples where I would darklight piece over melded piece but if it isn't that obvious to you that's your problem not mine. Also considering the amounts of complaints about the current materia system I wouldn't say that doubled melded will always be better since it may get changed with one day if devs listen to the players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

5 MP increase across 5 peices of gear is +25 mp. What can you do with 25 MP.
Increase in 3 INT for (at best) 5 peices of gear is 15. You don't notice 15 INT.
I can keep going but you get my point.

Look at the difference between any crafted gear even +1 and a double meld and then look at Darklight. Darklight is still ahead. You got +1 Raptorskin Gloves with 50 Attack Power from a double meld? Darklight Gauntlets have that, and more. This is what I'm talking about.
In this game small stats don't make a big difference, you need big changes to see anything. However, in 2.0 things may change and small changes like +3 here +5 there may actually mean something. Then and only then will it be acceptable.

---

Yes, maybe abit more on mp,and yes i was going with that based on if stats are fixed in 2.0 as i hope they would be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yusuke

I don't think folks are getting what Amsai is saying. I'm pretty sure that was a small example. That obviously wouldn't be the only stat -- +3 str derp! -- Let's get a better example:

This is what a normal mode drk/lgt cowl would have -- MP : +120, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +15, Int : +15, Pty : +15, Evasion : -20, Refresh : +3

This is what a hard mode drk/lgt cowl would have --MP : +125, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +18, Int : +18, Pty : +18, Evasion : -18, Refresh : +4

Okay. Now... Playing hardmode and getting all of the pieces of gear with the same differences in stats you see in exhibit B above, you'll find that it's quite the noticable difference from the complete set of normal mode gear's stats. At the same time, it's not an unfair difference.

---

Ah I see some casual players want the same rewards but on a lower difficulty. I have to disagree there is no reason that every difficulty level would have the same gear drops with just different stats. So basicly you are saying/suggestion that if there was an easy or normal mode the gear drops would be the exact same w different stats. Wait im sorry no, you want the best stuff earn it. How would you like it if your boss gave everyone the same amount in a raise yet you clearly worked harder for it or put more time in, while the other guy came in late all the time and just slacked off? Im pretty sure you would be up in arms pretty damn quick. If you cant earn the best rewards than you clearly dont deserve them. It may sound harsh but why should some1 get the same items/gear on a lower difficulty? Bottom line if you want something earn it, it dosent matter if you can spend 3 hours or 12 hours a day, (if a player/s wants to) they can earn the reward/s.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

I don't see a problem with hard modes either. What I have a problem with is dungeon design that gives no visible rewards and shows no sort of progression, hard modes being THE content instead of a branch of content, and hard mode gear being exponentially more powerful than regular mode gear. That's why I'd suggest Normal Mode, Hard Mode and Hard Mode +1 scaling if you absolutely have to have more than two echelons.

Games like WoW understand this, which is why they're implementing challenge modes for dungeons to see if that provides the challenge the hardcores so desire without upsetting the balance of power (more than the buff-nerf rollercoaster does, anyway).

*puts on Scholar's Mortarboard*

For those who didn't know, Challenge Modes are basically much like our speed runs, but with forced stat caps so that your group doesn't out-level or out-stat the dungeon. The rewards include achievements and gear with unique appearances for transmogrification (no stats). Your rewards are determined by the amount of time it would take to clear the dungeon.

---

Thank you, at last another reasonable human being. What this guy is saying is completely in line with the norm, and I have to say I mostly agree with him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Well seeing as they said there will be drops for all difficulties, I don't see the problem.

---

It all depends on how they implement it. And thats yet to be seen. As a fan of the game and someone who wishes for its success, thats why I made this thread. I want devs to see this thread and make sure they are on the same page as the hearts of the casual audiance in regards to EG content. Thats why this forum was created: to let us, the players, give our feedback and suggestions. I know SE can make great games, but I also know that they have made some bombs and made multiple business blunders over the years. Sometimes I wonder if some of the strange decisions they make are representative of a culture gap or if they are just that out of touch. Whatever the case, any ensight I can help bring to bear is worth the effort. Regardless of what you think of me or my ideas and opinions, I hope you know I have nothing but whats best for the game in mind. I am not trying to kill the fun or rewards of the hardcore player base. SE just needs to be very cautious about how they approach difficulty settings and loot. And frankly I worry about what SE will do sometmes. For instance, I think Behest and HamDef and Caravan Escort are absolutely horrible content, and boring as hell. I was very sad that HamDef didnt turn out more something like Campaign. And its not just that, but a whole lot of little things along the way that give me pause. Sometimes SE makes things that make me want to cry tears of joy, and other times its just tears...... So as long as I have a voice, you're damn right Im gonna use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxthunder

Ah I see some casual players want the same rewards but on a lower difficulty. I have to disagree there is no reason that every difficulty level would have the same gear drops with just different stats. So basicly you are saying/suggestion that if there was an easy or normal mode the gear drops would be the exact same w different stats. Wait im sorry no, you want the best stuff earn it. How would you like it if your boss gave everyone the same amount in a raise yet you clearly worked harder for it or put more time in, while the other guy came in late all the time and just slacked off? Im pretty sure you would be up in arms pretty damn quick. If you cant earn the best rewards than you clearly dont deserve them. It may sound harsh but why should some1 get the same items/gear on a lower difficulty? Bottom line if you want something earn it, it dosent matter if you can spend 3 hours or 12 hours a day, (if a player/s wants to) they can earn the reward/s.

---

Your example doesnt work, becuase this is just a game not a job...........
Besides, it worked just fine if FFXI. There was normal EG gear and there was +1s. They looked the same, but one had slightly better stats. It worked there, it can work here. Also, because its +1 versions, its not the "same" gear. Lastly, I dont really care about the aesthetics of the gear. The Normal mode gear could look cool, and the hardmode could look freakin bad ass. I think thats fair. But the stats dont need to be vastly superior, just a bit better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

Your example doesnt work, becuase this is just a game not a job...........
Besides, it worked just fine if FFXI. There was normal EG gear and there was +1s. They looked the same, but one had slightly better stats. It worked there, it can work here. Also, because its +1 versions, its not the "same" gear. Lastly, I dont really care about the aesthetics of the gear. The Normal mode gear could look cool, and the hardmode could look freakin bad ass. I think thats fair. But the stats dont need to be vastly superior, just a bit better.

---

Thats not a bad idea but... the +1 should have a little better stats. I can agree with this if all stats on the normal gear was the same and than the shall we say hq +1 version be much much better.

I wouldn't wanna see the same looking gear with only a difference in stats come out of normal and hard mode dungeons. If I were to do Sea Serpent Grotto (normal) and win I would be happy with gear along the lines of Eclipse Subligar being the reward and If I were to do it on hard mode I could see something like Darklight Subligar be a reward, giving example of stats on gear would just fan the argument of one side saying that's too high and the other side saying that's too low that's best left to the devs. The concern I raise is, can normal mode dungeons have their own bad ass looking gear?

Hello everyone!

The way I see it is this:

Problem: If hard mode drops something different than easy mode, then hard mode will be considered 'needed' in order to get that item. This would negate the benefit of having multiple modes as you would 'eventually' 'need' to do hard mode to get that different item.

Problem: If hard mode only drops a slightly better version of something than easy mode (+1 style stats or a bit more), then only a select few may be willing to do the 'hard' mode version to get that item. This means creating content for only a small percentage of the population, which is not something I can see them focusing on. So I do not see this as likely or wise. Plus it will be messy inventory wise to have multiple versions of same thing.

Problem: If hard mode drops significantly better version of something than easy mode (pretend +3 exists and imagine how much better that would be). Then this runs the risk of either making easy mode drop not worth or hard mode drop so powerful that it negates the need for crafting and melding. Both can lead to balance issues and make a sizeable population very unhappy (all in the name of having a 'hard' mode).


Perhaps what is needed regarding hard mode versus easy mode versus extreme mode is a completely different reward system independent of what is dropped. Some would argue that action is its own reward, but Garuda would argue otherwise. So what 'useful' but 'unrequired' drop can come from 'hard mode' that those who only compete in 'easy' mode won't mind, but still retain a benefit to doing hard mode?

To me, one obvious/useful answer is this:
Easy Mode: Drops the nice looking equipment. (This makes everyone happy).
Hard Mode: Drops Rare/Exotic materia. (Good for melders and dedicated players who want to tweak their stats)
Extreme Mode: Drops Exotic Matter. (Can be used to meld materia to specific unmeldable gear).

So a simple example (please don't interpret the values as realistic, only example random numbers):
Adventurer fights hard and eventually wins easy mode and is finally rewarded:
Easy mode drops: Cookiee Monster Cudgel (+10 INT, +20 Attack Magic)

A casual adventurer is happy and goes on her merry way. But another might say: Noo... that fight was too easy, I wish a harder challenge. She goes in and wins 'hard' mode and is rewarded with:
Hard mode drops: Fudge Materia IV (+10 INT, +10 PIE, +10 MND, +10 Magic Accuracy)

She looks at this and is pleased and thinks it would look good on her Lightning Brand. However, she thinks it would look even better on her Cookiee Monster Cudgel, but alas it is unmeldable... unless... She takes on the challenge of Extreme Mode and wins, and is rearded with:
Extreme mode drops: Cookiee Monster Super Materia (Allows melding of any materia to a Cookiee Monster weapon).

She then fuses her Fudge Materia IV to her Cookiee Monster Cudgel and is well pleased with herself.

(Note: I grant SE full rights to create a Cookiee Monster Cudgel and Fudge Materia).

Thank you.

Not that we even know if this is how it goes down... but a Token Reward is not a punishment for Easy Mode. It's an easy reward obtained for an Easy Mode. I would have assumed you were worried about your own character not earning much for playing on easy mode, but judging from this comment, you must be ready to solo Hard Mode...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

The simple fact is that over half the players on FFXIV are average to terrible, and the content is so hard that the only way they will ever get wins is if good players pull them through the content.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yusuke

I don't think folks are getting what Amsai is saying. I'm pretty sure that was a small example. That obviously wouldn't be the only stat -- +3 str derp! -- Let's get a better example:

This is what a normal mode drk/lgt cowl would have -- MP : +120, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +15, Int : +15, Pty : +15, Evasion : -20, Refresh : +3

This is what a hard mode drk/lgt cowl would have --MP : +125, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +18, Int : +18, Pty : +18, Evasion : -18, Refresh : +4

Okay. Now... Playing hardmode and getting all of the pieces of gear with the same differences in stats you see in exhibit B above, you'll find that it's quite the noticable difference from the complete set of normal mode gear's stats. At the same time, it's not an unfair difference.

---

that's not even worth doing lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Figgleleaf

Not that we even know if this is how it goes down... but a Token Reward is not a punishment for Easy Mode. It's an easy reward obtained for an Easy Mode.

---

Not token as in getting tokens to trade for gear or whatnot. He meant token as in just...there. No reward, no gear, just the victory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

They looked the same, but one had slightly better stats. It worked there, it can work here. Also, because its +1 versions, its not the "same" gear. Lastly, I dont really care about the aesthetics of the gear. The Normal mode gear could look cool, and the hardmode could look freakin bad ass. I think thats fair. But the stats dont need to be vastly superior, just a bit better.

---

I can agree with this, though in some cases the difference between NQ and +1 gear was that only the +1 version had stats and the NQ was just garbage.

Something we should also keep in mind is that we should try to not give no-lifers an easy ticket to rule over everyone else in PvP. Tier gear in vanilla WoW made it pretty clear hwo a guy in tier 2 or 3 gear could easily wipe the floor with the opposing team because the stat discrepancy was that big.

I'll remain in favor of hard mode gear being slightly better versions of normal mode gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amsai

Thank you, at last another reasonable human being. What this guy is saying is completely in line with the norm, and I have to say I mostly agree with him.



It all depends on how they implement it. And thats yet to be seen. As a fan of the game and someone who wishes for its success, thats why I made this thread. I want devs to see this thread and make sure they are on the same page as the hearts of the casual audiance in regards to EG content. Thats why this forum was created: to let us, the players, give our feedback and suggestions. I know SE can make great games, but I also know that they have made some bombs and made multiple business blunders over the years. Sometimes I wonder if some of the strange decisions they make are representative of a culture gap or if they are just that out of touch. Whatever the case, any ensight I can help bring to bear is worth the effort. Regardless of what you think of me or my ideas and opinions, I hope you know I have nothing but whats best for the game in mind. I am not trying to kill the fun or rewards of the hardcore player base. SE just needs to be very cautious about how they approach difficulty settings and loot. And frankly I worry about what SE will do sometmes. For instance, I think Behest and HamDef and Caravan Escort are absolutely horrible content, and boring as hell. I was very sad that HamDef didnt turn out more something like Campaign. And its not just that, but a whole lot of little things along the way that give me pause. Sometimes SE makes things that make me want to cry tears of joy, and other times its just tears...... So as long as I have a voice, you're damn right Im gonna use it.

---

But your whole point would alienate hardcore players. DERP.
Are you just high on yourself or something not able to look at the other side of the fence?
I'm sitting here in the middle and you're waaaaay left field buddy. The way you want it, no one would do the hard content. It wouldn't be worth it. Look at Garuda now, the weapons aren't worth the difficulty so -almost- no one tries it anymore. Why? Because it's not worth the trouble!
There should be tiers and those tiers should be noticable AND I SAY NOTICABLE NOT OP AS F**K. If you wanna throw stats out there then do it according to how stats are now, not how you assume stats will be like in 2.0.
And I loooooooooooooove how you preach about how you have this forum to voice your opinion even though no one is telling you that you can't. You have to throw stawman argument after strawman argument, you use go way off topic of what anyone with a disagreeing statement has to say and go to the extremes of what others are saying against your points and you completely ignore valid and strong points against your view because OH you don't wanna look wrong now do you?
I never mentioned if you want this game to succeed, I never brought up why this forum was created, I never said you can't voice your opinion, I never talked about SE's ability to make other games, I never talked about SE's "bombs" or mentioned "bad business", your comment about a culture gap and their "grip on reality" has nothing to do with the topic, no one mentioned 1.0 content that will be redone like Caravans or Behests or Hamlets, and no one asked you what SE makes you do and that's just your last post!


No real difference between normal and hard loot is a S**T idea that will alienate hardcore players and I am damned glad they will never listen to people like you again. This is fact, coming from hardcore players who know what they're talking about because they are hardcore and they know what will keep them from playing.
The fact that you just want good loot without trying hard to get it just shows that you don't want there to be a reason to work hard and you want casual players to be almost just as good as hardcore players which just isn't right. Plain and simple. Be rewarded Fairly for your effort. Is that so much to ask that you f***ing see that point?