The issue with this is what do you define as 'properly geared'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamini
Take Lapis Manalis as an example - it's entry ilvl is 590. The current ilvl cap is 630. If you're suggesting to balance tankbusters around an ilvl 40 steps above the entry requirement range as 'properly geared', then you're out of your mind and would be rightfully laughed out of any serious game design meeting. As long as dungeons are MSQ bound, they'll always have to be tuned around the lowest min ilvl for the instance to allow a full set of potential min ilvl players of generally low skill that get queued together to sail through the instance. And as a result of being tuned to the lowest ilvl, high ilvl tanks will always be able to brush off tank damage, especially once you factor in disparity in actual skill levels.
That's even ignoring the reality that every tank sans DRK has solo'd P1 normal back when the ilvl was 600 - a fight that contains stack markers that have to be solo soaked instead of split, decent damage tankbusters, and chains of decent damage autos that required good CD & healing management in order to overcome. You'd need to crank damage level up to savage scale in order to stop a WAR who understands even the basics of CD management from soloing a boss.
And if you think they'd ever put savage level damage in an MSQ bound dungeon, then I have a bridge in San Francisco to sell ya!
The solution to preventing tanks from soloing bosses is to just pull back on the sheer healing vomit the tanks can put out, no 5000iq 'I think this idea is great but will just make DF experience worse in reality' ideas needed. Just prevent tanks from being both a tank & healer roles baked into one.
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05-09-2023, 10:56 PMDaeriion_Aeradiir
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05-09-2023, 11:18 PMSaltyDaddyLets gooo. Healers asked for more healing. Let them suffer! Everybody cried about P7S bleed week one, but this feels special. Seriously, Im happy you are not content designer. What a stupid idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamini
If party wipes at more % than they can solo without taking too long to see enrage and they still going just because, they are just dicks. I dont think its reportable, but if everyone ask them nicelly and they want to waste time, put them on black list and just leave. I still think your idea would, in the long run, cause more harm than good. When it happens on normal content, hey, at least you can go prepare yourself a nice cup of coffee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
And what you want to balance around? Normal raids lol? Also "content nobody does" - you know that more people clear savage, than the blue carnivale, or another type of casual content right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Troxbark
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05-09-2023, 11:28 PMJeeqbitIt's not over until it's over. If one person lives, it's fair they should be able to keep trying. An enrage or super TB for there only being 1 person would affect unsyncing in the future as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
The game is designed around carrying people. It was the developers' intention from ARR. They wanted to match veteran and geared up players into duties with newer or more casual players, so that they carry them and show off all their skills and gear. The matching of different skill levels was always how it was meant to be.Quote:
Despite what you think is a good intention, it really doesn't do anyone any favors. Particularly if you feel like players should not be carried to a clear.
Dungeons only need 1 competent player to carry the rest and this is what works. If required MSQ content was too hard, some people just wouldn't progress and would quit.
This is exactly why we can solo things in the first place. There used to be bosses that just hit too hard, especially in 8-person content, combined with only 2 uses of Clemency at a time. Now we have so many self-heals that we can actually live for ages without even sweating. That isn't to say that we couldn't solo dungeon bosses before, but it wasn't always as easy as it can be now with our abundance of healing and mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir
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05-10-2023, 01:07 AMTroxbarkI did lapis whatever whenever day 1 ilvl590, I watched YouTube while running it as healer. It's baby tuned content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir
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05-10-2023, 01:21 AMTroxbarkCried because healers wouldn't heal and dps wouldn't use mits. After the 2nd or 3rd week it was a non-issue when people realized how to actually utilize everything their job has.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy
Keep balancing around savage, buff casual content to at least require people to pay attention.Quote:
And what you want to balance around? Normal raids lol? Also "content nobody does" - you know that more people clear savage, than the blue carnivale, or another type of casual content right?
Blue carnivale??? Old and outdated content that no one gives a shit about lmao. If you compare savage to equivalent relevant casual content then no, more people don't do savage. The fact you had to cherry pick content that is basically hidden or outdated shows how disingenuous you're trying to be. -
05-10-2023, 04:18 AMTomsYoungerBroThis is why they should just ilvl sync content so they dont have to account for side a wide gear gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir
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05-10-2023, 04:30 AMTaleraRistainI can see the point of not wanting a tank with ego to decide for the party but I think on the flip side it can hurt people just trying to get through the content. I remember a particular E5N run back near launch where I was on DNC and we had a lot of new folks. I was one of the few left alive each time we wiped. We tried to help explain. It just was something wasn't clicking so most were really struggling. It happened about 3 times. On the fourth try, the two tanks and I took him down from 40% ourselves. It took a bit, but the party was cheering us on and having a good time with it. I know you had mainly mentioned EX but some on the thread had also mentioned normal content. SE has added enrages here and there even to normal content and they're generally not a bottleneck so I think they just need to be careful how tight they make things so they're not punishing players really trying just for the random egotistical tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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05-10-2023, 10:21 AMGeminaHow? You're not backing up your claim with a valid argument. If you think that this would be bad over the long run, then explain why you think that is. Giving players a chance to grab some coffee while a tank solos the boss hardly makes a valid case why this is a good thing. If anything, it exacerbates the problem at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy
The thread topic is merely a suggestion. It doesn't have to be the way this issue is circumvented by the dev team. What the tread topic is pointing out, and what some of the posters herein have acknowledged, is encounter design. If a DPS or healer are the ones left standing, it doesn't matter if they execute the mechanics flawlessly; the boss will quickly finish them off through auto attacks alone. Do you really think it's fair that tanks have the privilege to duke it out with the boss solo if they happen to be the ones left standing? Can you say that with a straight face? You are a tank main with a seemingly level head on your shoulders, you should be one of the first people in this thread who acknowledges this issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
This argument works for casual content, or anything below EX. This content isn't designed for players to be carried, it is just designed so it can be cleared by players of varied skill levels because it isn't the intention of the dev team to wall players who are just trying to progress through the MSQ and NM raids. Even then, I still think the content shouldn't be designed in such a way that a tank can just toss the whole team on his back, and get them past the finish line. Don't the Japanese operate under the mindset of 'teamwork', and that one player shouldn't have a higher value than anyone else? Or is this just a farce? A western fantasy of the Japanese culture?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
As I said before, I can let this crap go to a certain extent for NM duties. However, EX and above is absolutely unacceptable that tanks can survive these encounters at an extended measure until they actually win or the boss enrages. Soloing the remainder of single digit% HP is one thing, being able to survive an entire series of mechanics is more than beyond busted.
It's also not so much encounter design than it is just having some friggin consistency. Tanks don't always have this kind of sustainability in all duties. An encounter that requires a tank swap can quickly bring a battle to an end if there is only one tank left, yet not all encounters have them, or some encounters will have a boss use an unavoidable vuln stack on the tank, and then go into a set of mechanics that will allow that timer to expire before it brings its attention back onto them (e.g. Ruby Weapon).
You can check my posting history. I don't start threads a whole lot complaining about issues I have with the game. I wouldn't have brought up this topic if I did not feel it was a serious flaw within the game. The answer doesn't have to be a mini enrage or super TB, but I feel something has to be done about this. -
05-10-2023, 10:43 AMGeminaYeah, I think one of the most compelling arguments thus far has been this is actually a rare occurrence, and most tanks will just kill themselves in such situations, but I think this is mostly because they know it will likely be faster to reset than to solo the boss themselves. I can understand the mindset of just wanting to get out of there if the group keeps failing. However, this brings back up what I pointed out earlier about the strong dislike voiced by the community for carries, and players who refuse to get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
I know for me, if I am having trouble with a particular duty or mechanic, I can't live down getting the clear anyway. It bothers me like nothing else in this game. So even with a green checkmark I will throw my butt back into that duty until I learn it. A redemption run, if you will. I know I can't expect all players to be like this, or even force this on them especially in NM duties. I've been in this situation as a tank several times, and it causes me a serious dilemma on whether it would be better for me to reset, or finish the boss off myself. One of the reasons for my suggestion is to also not thrust any other players into having to make that decision. It sucks! -
05-10-2023, 11:20 AMSaraide
P7s tankbusters are possibly the worst example of pointing at how much more damage bosses supposedly do. You could solo the "shared" tankbuster week 1 which halves the dot incoming total dot damage. It let me tell my cotank to "let me solo her" but that's about everything.
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05-10-2023, 11:30 AMKageTokage
I feel like the ARR tank swap mechanics that gradually ramped up the incoming damage or lowered HP were inherently more interesting to deal with then the modern "swap or die" model.
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05-10-2023, 01:39 PMJeeqbitIf they are skilled enough. After all, one of the attractions of playing a tank is that it makes you feel like a god. 100,000 health? That is boss health. Sign me up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
In ARR, for example, it did actually require some skill. To give you some examples, the cyclops in Halatali HM was something I could manage on Padadin by using Cure and Stoneskin. This was after ARR at least, but I could also manage the last boss of Keeper of the Lake on a Warrior. All it would take is being unable to do the mechanics and you could be dead.
In some more recent examples, I fought the 77 dungeon last boss in Shadowbringers on a Warrior and it was very challenging and actually required very good cooldown usage that I am certain most players probably wouldn't manage. But the item level sync is tight in there, unlike most dungeons.
I also fought the Amaurot last boss as a Dark Knight a few times and beat it. Considering their lack of self-heals, that also requires very good cooldown usage that has to be strategically timed to reduce incoming damage enough, to where you have a recovery period before the hard-hitting attacks return.
It's only where self-heals got out of control and autos didn't hit hard enough that this started to allow survival in 8-person content. I tried even now to go back and fight Zurvan on my own and I just die, even to the normal version, on both Paladins and Warriors. So I thought what about Sephirot that is scaled far lower and it still kills me after my cooldowns are exhausted. -
05-10-2023, 01:44 PMOizen
Maybe don't die if you don't want to watch a tank solo?
You're wasting their time by being dead, so they're allowed to waste your time by refusing to die. -
05-10-2023, 04:34 PMTroxbark100% agree. If team dies then they've wasted my time and now I'm going to watch youtube while the timer runs out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Sometimes if I'm feeling generous ill berate the team before afking. -
05-10-2023, 04:54 PMTaleraRistainIt does suck, especially when you don't have a handy wall to run into or an edge to drop off. I will agree with the argument that it's pretty rare. The handful of times I have seen a tank stubbornly continuing on when the boss is still fairly high in HP (not at like 3%) they usually fail anyway and either don't try it again or someone's quick enough to boot them so we don't have to put up with that again. So I definitely think I'm in the camp where I don't find anything wrong with the type of enrages we've already seen that are lenient but I probably wouldn't want to see anything all that more severe. I think that would end up harming more than helping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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05-10-2023, 08:08 PMDixieBellOCEExpecting people that have been playing for 300+ hours to have a 'BASIC' understanding of the game isn't being elitist, its general expectations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
If you are dying to dungeon mechanics after seeing them for over a year, then you obviously haven't learned, or just don't care. (or just don't play the game) -
05-10-2023, 08:19 PMSaraide
Most normal mechanics are designed to be understood the first time you see them.
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05-10-2023, 08:24 PMBluexBird
The solution is simple - if the whole party is dead except for the tanks, give them a HUGE damage boost to finish the boss off quicker.
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05-10-2023, 09:48 PMGeminaExpecting players to play perfectly because YOU have over 300+ hours in the game is textbook elitism, and if you can't handle players making mistakes, I strongly suggest logging out and not coming back. Go play a solo game where you are not obligated to play with what you deem to be inferior drones.Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE
Besides, dungeons should be where your expectations are the lowest. Seriously WTF is wrong with you? -
05-10-2023, 10:17 PMGeminaI honestly thought your next argument would be that Tanks are the least played role, and as such have the right to this privilege. I would have gave that to you. From this angle though, any player who can flawlessly do the mechanics should be allowed to go mano y mano with the boss. Healers have some sustainability especially on bosses who break off their autos. There have been several occasions where I have been able to keep myself alive long enough to charge the third bar for LB and then bring everyone back. I would argue that not only does this require at the very least, equal skill as a tank with strategic use of the skills, doing mechanics, with a LOT less defense and mitigation, and also wise use of MP consumption, but you also get to raise everyone as well. Want to talk about feeling like a god, chew on that a bit. If you're eager to sign up, the game can always use healers who don't panic in such situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
I can also argue that DPS players are some of the game's most skilled, with the least amount of privilege when it comes to self-sustain. Why are they boss fodder if they are skilled enough to never take unnecessary damage? -
05-11-2023, 02:23 AMTroxbarkThey are not the most skilled, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
There should always be damage. If dps can self sustain then why even bother bringing a healer along? This is the problem with the self sustain argument, it makes an entire support class completely irrelevant. -
05-11-2023, 02:25 AMTroxbarkI'll just intentionally die to mechanics and watch youtube then, lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by BluexBird
A slightly longer fight while I engage in more interesting content, ok sign me up lol. -
05-11-2023, 02:42 AMGeminaI didn't say they are the most skilled. I said some of the game's most skilled players are among them. And I'm not saying they should have the ability to sustain themselves. This statement is a rebuttal towards the poster I quoted when he claimed that skilled players have the right to solo bosses while everyone else watches. So I'm asking why that should be exclusive to tanks? It's not necessarily skill that allows them to do it. Not entirely anyway. It also has a lot to do with playing a busted arse role in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troxbark
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05-11-2023, 03:55 AMJeeqbitSo are tanks. I know good tanks when I see them. Historically, people have been too afraid to tank because of anxiety, leaving just the confident people who know what they are doing to pick up the role and that's why there was a shortage that led to SE making tank mounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
People have often tanked in dungeons and casual content without knowing what they are doing, but you can notice those people easily and they are just playing an alt job, leveling or something like that.
This is missing the point. Tanks exist to be tanky. To take damage and survive it. Part of their identity is being able to survive what others cannot. That is what a tank is and is meant to be. You send your tank in front to take all the hits, because they can take them without dying, unlike yourself.Quote:
There have been several occasions where I have been able to keep myself alive long enough to charge the third bar for LB and then bring everyone back. I would argue that not only does this require at the very least, equal skill as a tank with strategic use of the skills, doing mechanics, with a LOT less defense and mitigation, and also wise use of MP consumption, but you also get to raise everyone as well. Want to talk about feeling like a god, chew on that a bit.
So one of the appeals, for me as a tank, is that exact god-like feeling that being able to survive everything brings. If you like that, it's a reason to play a tank.
If a healer can use their heals to survive for a significant amount of time despite having lower health and defenses, then I am perfectly fine with that. I have even done it rarely in dungeons if the tank has gone. Just pulled the boss, cast a crit Adlo and other things on me and taken the tank buster. I welcome such situations because they are fun and different than what usually happens.
You defeated your own point (that it's impossible to do it on a healer) by saying you have done it on a healer as well. -
05-11-2023, 01:45 PMkaynide
Personally, rather than any kind of enrage, just make it so current-expac content can’t be done without a competent party; and I mean a fight that the healer actually has to spend all their resources/focus healing and only the most competent actually being able to eek out some dps.
In other words, with the healer down, the tank will gradually be unable to keep itself alive (say 2-3 minutes). And without dps, the healer should run out of MP/cooldowns to keep the tank alive (again, let’s say 5 minutes). A single dungeon boss shouldn’t take longer, and trials should have natural breaks where healers can recharge mp. -
05-11-2023, 01:54 PMDixieBellOCEQuote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
NA Mentality: 'go play other games because people are not willing to put in the bare minimum responsibility not to waste other peoples time in a multiplayer environment'
JP Mentality: 'I have to play well as to not let down my fellow players'
And people wonder why NA gets meme'd on. -
05-11-2023, 01:54 PMTaleraRistainWhat would the game do to disable the tank from staying alive or make the healer run out of MP/cooldowns in a way that doesn't already happen? Some sort of new debuff that bleeds health and MP?Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
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05-11-2023, 02:03 PMDixieBellOCEYour arguing with a person that thinks playing the game for 9 years at the level of doing normal dungeons and alliance raids gives them a complete opinion on the games expansive combat system and content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
Looking up their character on a publicly available website will give you about as much information as you need to just ignore any comment they make about the games combat system, because its very obvious they they do not understand it at all, or don't care enough to actually improve at the game. -
05-11-2023, 02:11 PMElkanahTanks doing their job and dps not holding their own? Sounds like dps and heals need to get good?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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05-11-2023, 02:13 PMElkanahThis^Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE
Most of the issues seem to be the NA players. JP players decide to hold their own and learned not to drag the party down. -
05-11-2023, 02:14 PMDixieBellOCEThis is exactly what the problem is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkanah
Look this player up on a publicly available website and every recorded dungeon they have multiple vuln stacks.
Its 100% a skill issue, Move out of the bad.
But we are elitist expecting them to actually learn how to play the game after 9 years, right? -
05-13-2023, 10:03 PMkaynideThe tank shouldn’t be able to indefinitely regenerate their own health. Some emergency/limited use is good (even clemency level cure bomb), but the mp regen is just too fast… or it should have a straight cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
Point being, in a 5-10ish minute boss fight, the tank should run out of resources to keep themselves up within..say..a minute. There is a chance they can finish that last 5-10% of the boss, but not enough to last the whole thing.
In addition, the rate of dps the tank and healer do combined should not be enough to duo the boss entirely before their healing resources run out. Again maybe 2-3 of that 10 minute fight..enough to pick up dead dps, or maybe clear the last 25%.
The thing there means, healers would be using more hard casts like plain cure, with the cooldown freebie heals being more like an “oh $%@*!” button. There just isn’t a need for so many off cooldown heals, or there needs to be only resource-built up ones like the Lily/sage stones. The game has evolved in a way where healers rarely even need to hard cast heals (can only speak for the core game, not endgame raids) which is the root of the problem in my very humble opinion.
…that said, this is not the game as it is today. It’s close to what the game was 2.0, but it wasn’t meant to be. -
05-16-2023, 02:54 PMTaleraRistainSo are you advocating that the skills should change in general, like longer CDs? Won't that affect grouping in general and not just the ability to survive when others are down?Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
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05-16-2023, 03:38 PMkaynide
Not necessarily a longer cooldown overall, but certainly for healing resources, or to have less oGCD healing abilities (again reserving them for when they are really needed, and not the main source of healing).
Hard healing has a bit of finesse that I think makes healer jobs better (planning when to cast; when you can or can’t move; trying to time your cure to heal just as an enemy hits). This adds a lot to healing that isn’t just “use the instant cure when ally is hurt, do boring dps when not”
My fix is honestly to make mp/hp passive regen significantly less. Not to a point where only good players clear content, but probably where “bad” players get through a current dungeon end boss “running on fumes”/possibly with the tank near death.
I’m talking a scenario where “ok 1 dps is down, and we are at 45%…we might be ok…but if I decide to raise the other dps it puts our tank in a tough spot while I raise..and I might not be able to keep the tank healed after the raise with my mp down. Do I use a potion? Or do I need to announce this so the tank can put up mitigation while I raise?…or maybe we can just tough it out with 1 dps? Should be enough MP… I hope”
I remember a time in 2.0, where you ideally wanted to keep stoneskin and regen up as much as possible…but if you were doing that on every party member you would be struggling for mp about 5 minutes into a fight. That was honestly the most fun I’ve had as a healer- deciding if and when it was worth using stoneskin/regen at all, or if I needed to reserve some amount of mp for an upcoming raid-wide etc….
…of course this was also back when simply doing Titan-EX required the use of +vit rings just to have hp to survive his limit break…. So not necessarily the best game design in play.
This is a lot like how FFXI was, but I wouldn’t want something to that extreme.
…again though, I recognize this is simply not THAT kind of game, and if want to play something with harder mechanics, I can just play whatever that game is. -
05-16-2023, 05:26 PMAyche
Around halfway through the thread, I lost track if people were still talking about high-end raids, or like normal raid or is it now about dungeons....
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05-16-2023, 07:30 PMkaynideThe main question wasQuote:
Originally Posted by Ayche
…and/or other ideas related to encouraging better/more responsible play and/or making it so bosses aren’t soloable/duo-able by a tanks alone.Quote:
Should bosses get something along the lines of a mini enrage, or super TB?
This would only come into play when there are just one or both tanks left alive, and the boss just does away with them after 10-12 seconds?
Wasn’t really important on the specific where. -
05-16-2023, 07:40 PMkaynideJust chiming in, not meaning to be confrontational, but as a player in JP with a professional..chronic.. floortank of a wife, I can assure you JP are not unicorns and certainly have just as many super casual/low skill players as NA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkanah
One of our good friends since 2.0 has YET to figure out Titan’s very predictable pattern here 10 years later. She celebrates if she just makes it to the end without getting knocked off. We love her just the same.
Also, remember, they made a JP tv drama that is almost entirely about a son secretly carrying his dad through Twintania. He tries his best…and they eventually clear, but he's an old man just playing for fun, not necessarily to be a good player.
https://i0.wp.com/dramaswithasideofk...pg?w=425&ssl=1
We (wife and I) call them (including my wife) “tourist players”. They are here to ride the rides, gawk at the things and see the story. Don’t really care about learning the mechanics aside from the one clear needed to progress….and with her new BFF Y’shtola showing her where to stand in raids/dungeons, she doesn’t need me anymore D: -
05-16-2023, 08:37 PMVictorSpoilsIf you do A1 unsynced and survive SD, the fight will just reset with you still standing there. Thought that was kind of amusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
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05-17-2023, 12:55 AMAycheOh it does matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
Even in normal raids there is no reason to punish the other tank just because the other guy died. Two tanks in normal/story content is exactly there for the sake of redundancy. -
05-17-2023, 01:30 AMToutatis
Soloing a boss can be fun. I occasionally do it but when I do so I go alone.
If the group dies, I’ll wipe unless the boss has little health remaining. Letting the entire team on the floor for a prolonged period of time is just rude.