Discrepency Between Male/Female Clothing/Emotes in Regards to Performance

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

There are some female shorts that I wish I could wear as male. So the feeling is mutual!

https://i.redd.it/m7m9gaa2wjn51.jpg

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Do you have a list of what the different items are? I need some of those in my life.

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

There are some female shorts that I wish I could wear as male. So the feeling is mutual!

https://i.redd.it/m7m9gaa2wjn51.jpg

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Finally, someone understands the suffering of a male character who lacks all the cute shorts for no reason at all.

I'd rather not see glamour go in the same direction as hairstyles and result in the majority of options being designed to be feminine or androgynous rather than masculine. At least by having distinct designs for female and male characters a greater number of players are appeased. Whereas only a tiny minority of people playing male characters would be content if every other option was designed to be 'cute' or 'girly'.

Literally all of them are skin tight jeans except the one on top right just one lonely bell bottom.

Bees knees is performative on females? idk, looks like the same dance male characters do. But putting that aside, I'm all for more unisex options and unlocking gender-locked gear/emotes. At the same time, I realize that doing something like this for all gear is a lot more work than it's probably worth. So instead I suggest at least the popular outfits get two versions (feminine and masculine) and make both these versions available to anyone regardless of character sex. It might be unrealistic to expect something like this with every single piece of gear, but if it's just the most desired and popular outfits, I think that would be fine.

There's no denying that most men want more masculine outfits, and most women want feminine outfits. This is just the norm. However, it doesn't hurt to acknowledge people who prefer an alternative style or unisex outfits - they should get things, too.

I just want a pair of baggy jean shorts so I can cosplay Rick from the PS3 Splatterhouse remake.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

Do you have a list of what the different items are? I need some of those in my life.

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1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9

1. Skallic bottoms of aiming
2. Makai (various) – these are part of the Garo collaboration sets and currently not available in the game.
3. Expeditioner's pantalettes/kecks
4. Skallic bottoms of striking
5. Spring bottoms
6. Pagos culottes / Rainbow culottes of striking – also shared model (in different colours) with Arachne culottes of casting/healing
7. Type-53 bottoms of casting/healing
8. Gryphonskin pantalettes / Uraeus breeches
9. Spriggan bottoms

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Originally Posted by Senn

Bees knees is performative on females? idk, looks like the same dance male characters do. But putting that aside, I'm all for more unisex options and unlocking gender-locked gear/emotes. At the same time, I realize that doing something like this for all gear is a lot more work than it's probably worth. So instead I suggest at least the popular outfits get two versions (feminine and masculine) and make both these versions available to anyone regardless of character sex. It might be unrealistic to expect something like this with every single piece of gear, but if it's just the most desired and popular outfits, I think that would be fine.

There's no denying that most men want more masculine outfits, and most women want feminine outfits. This is just the norm. However, it doesn't hurt to acknowledge people who prefer an alternative style or unisex outfits - they should get things, too.

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The women blatantly sway more and have an added wink and dont have as wide of a stance. This is where the chicken or the egg comment came about with men liking masculine things and women liking feminine things, there is no inherent determining factor that says "women usually prefer this because theyre women, and men usually prefer this because theyre men". It has absolutely nothing to do with sex and everything to do with social conditioning, and to act like enforcing the rigidity (as in ffxiv making female outfits the "other" and male outfits the "default" according to item icons) doesn't add to this is wild.

Making an entire different version of the outfit for only one sex that's clearly other'ed and secondary is a lot more work than was necessary when they could have just kept the clothing the same.

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Originally Posted by CCheshire

Finally, someone understands the suffering of a male character who lacks all the cute shorts for no reason at all.

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It's not no reason at all, it's distinctly because yes theyre cute, but they're performative and men aren't expected to perform. I love and agree that yes everyone should get options but y'all are really digressing from the point that they ALREADY allowed males in the game to wear multiple female-only hyper-sexualized outfits. My point was distinctly about single item's having female versions that are blatantly different that what the item is advertised specifically because the character is female. And most of these changes are to show off more skin and become way more impractical. I'm asking that this option be switched specifically because its enforcing the sexist idea that women inherently want to perform and sexualize themselves, yet they don't have a choice when that's all theyre given.

I get wanting cute shorts as a male character, I do. But "wanting" to have fun decorating yourself (when theyve already expanded those options, anyways, compared to what they've now allowed females to wear) and adding this to a post where this decoration is FORCED onto a sex and clearly multiple people have an issue with this takes away the point of it a bit.

Wanting the same performative outfits forced onto women isn't the same as not wanting to be forced into those performative outfits. In some cases, it can even normalize forcing women into them because if so many men want them, clearly there's nothing sexist about them existing—aka, as I'll say again, multiple feminine outfits being opened up for men but little to no comparison of male outfits for women.

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

There are some female shorts that I wish I could wear as male. So the feeling is mutual!

https://i.redd.it/m7m9gaa2wjn51.jpg

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Most of these change with gender. But I know the top middle is two different items, one for female, one for male. Personally I think they should all be separate items, but equitable by all. Yeah I know that's a lot of work.

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

...men aren't expected to perform.

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um... ok

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Originally Posted by MsQi

um... ok

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? Do you have another reason as to why men somehow are never given a mini-skirt/short-shorts variation of an outfit while the women get a practical pants option? I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

? Do you have another reason as to why men somehow are never given a mini-skirt/short-shorts variation of an outfit while the women get a practical pants option? I'll wait.

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Perhaps it has something to do with the simple fact that most men don't want to wear feminine clothing in general.

The FFXIV community, in particular, also has a habit of greatly exaggerating the demand and popularity of niche aesthetics.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd rather not see glamour go in the same direction as hairstyles and result in the majority of options being designed to be feminine or androgynous rather than masculine. At least by having distinct designs for female and male characters a greater number of players are appeased. Whereas only a tiny minority of people playing male characters would be content if every other option was designed to be 'cute' or 'girly'.

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I do not care about how many men want to hyper-sexualize the female characters they play (nor women at this point honestly), and I think that a game default giving you hyper-sexualized outfits for females and being forced to use them because you physically CAN'T use the "default" version given to the males as a female is a very very bad indicator as to whether people actually want to use them or not, anyways. I agree with your last sentence tho, which is why I can't be bothered to join the discussion on giving men more sexualized articles of clothing. They already got a lot and it seems more empty than anything when it's just added on to a post asking for that specific foot to be taken OFF women's necks. As if it's anywhere near the same thing to add "oh, but step on MY neck please"

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Perhaps it has something to do with the simple fact that most men don't want to wear feminine clothing in general.

The FFXIV community, in particular, also has a habit of greatly exaggerating the demand and popularity of niche aesthetics.

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Why don't men want to wear feminine clothing in general?

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

Why don't men want to wear feminine clothing in general?

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Because feminine clothing is constructed around the feminine form, ere go it tends to look bad on the masculine form.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Because feminine clothing is constructed around the feminine form, ere go it tends to look bad on the masculine form.

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This.

Plus despite what subversive elements may seek to push, many men are happy embracing their masculinity much in the same way as many women are happy embracing their femininity. Exceptions exist, of course, but they're very much a minority albeit a very vocal one at that.

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

? Do you have another reason as to why men somehow are never given a mini-skirt/short-shorts variation of an outfit while the women get a practical pants option? I'll wait.

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It's because of cultural norms and what is popularly considered attractive for men vs women. I don't know what your hangup is on "performance".

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

This is where the chicken or the egg comment came about with men liking masculine things and women liking feminine things, there is no inherent determining factor that says "women usually prefer this because theyre women, and men usually prefer this because theyre men". It has absolutely nothing to do with sex and everything to do with social conditioning.

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I don't think it's only social conditioning. Clothing tailored to the female form is feminine. And clothing tailored around the male form is masculine. This has to do with a person's sex, too (women generally have wider hips, men have broader shoulders, etc.)
But let's say it was only social conditioning, what does it matter? It doesn't change the fact that, today, the majority of men prefer a masculine style, and women prefer feminine styles. It's what people want, so I think this demographic should be catered to as well instead of keeping all clothing the same with no variations. Feminine and masculine clothing still has a place in this game.

Clothing should not be genderlocked moving forward in my opinion. It'd be great if there were both masculine/feminine versions of popular outfits that anyone could wear. It's true that it might be a lot of work, and it's probably not a realistic request. Though I've seen unrealistic sounding requests actually get implemented into the game before, so who knows...

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Because feminine clothing is constructed around the feminine form, ere go it tends to look bad on the masculine form.

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What are we including in feminine clothing? Suffocating underwear in fabrics that can cause yeast infections? Heels that destroy tendon structure to the point of chronic pain and lack of ability to walk properly without them the more often they're worn? Clothes that show more skin? Bra's that exist for almost no reason for a majority of the female populace except to hide the female nipple as it has been deemed "vulgar" yet also hyper-sexualizing what's "allowed" in the form of push-up bras and cleavage? I have to assume you mean these specifically enforced clothing choices for WOMEN because if you're talking about BODY TYPES, then that's completely null as there are so many different types between the sexes, that to deem one style meant for men and one for women just through sheer "designed for them" is absurd (surely that's not your argument, that short-shorts, mini-skirts, boob windows, are all designed for the "feminine" forms out of the sheer fact that they look "better" on them, otherwise men would be wearing these as often if they were a. short b. dainty and/or c. not incredibly muscular as stereotypically, those are deemed feminine features).

So I'll assume you mean clothing designed for females. How are heels that destroy ligament integrity designed for women? Would they not look good on a man who has broad hips and long legs? That's what they're advertised to accentuate, yet somehow it's a general expectancy for women to wear them regardless of hip size/leg length and men aren't expected to wear them no matter their body shape. They would destroy men's feet just the same if they wore them as often as women were expected to (not so much as high-heel laws dont exist too often anymore, socially its still more expected out of them). How is impractical underwear that can cause multiple issues with vagina health designed more for women, when those same fabrics would cause LESS issues on men? Why are men not wearing lacey underwear more when it has an incredibly lower chance of causing any genital issues? Why are men with large amounts of breast tissue not advised to wear bras to help with back pain and/or look more put-together in a professional environment?

I know why. And you know why, as well. Men don't usually like wearing clothing designed for women because it signifies a role and that role is to be objectified. But it's a lot easier to convince women to be okay with being objectified if you argue that it's any reason BUT that.

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Originally Posted by Senn

I don't think it's only social conditioning. Clothing tailored to the female form is feminine. And clothing tailored around the male form is masculine. This has to do with a person's sex, too (women generally have wider hips, men have broader shoulders, etc.)
But let's say it was only social conditioning, what does it matter? It doesn't change the fact that, today, the majority of men prefer a masculine style, and women prefer feminine styles. It's what people want, so I think this demographic should be catered to as well instead of keeping all clothing the same with no variations. Feminine and masculine clothing still has a place in this game.

Clothing should not be genderlocked moving forward in my opinion. It'd be great if there were both masculine/feminine versions of popular outfits that anyone could wear. It's true that it might be a lot of work, and it's probably not a realistic request. Though I've seen unrealistic sounding requests actually get implemented into the game before, so who knows...

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I'm glad you agree that it shouldn't be gender-locked. But what do you mean "why does it matter"? Where are your statistics that a majority of women prefer feminine styles? Do they account for how often androgynous clothing is available in women's sections of stores? Do they account for inherent bias in job markets where women are treated as unprofessional if they don't wear those "feminine" styles of clothing (or wear make-up)? Do they account for how much positive reinforcement they're given when they finally conform and how that might influence personal decision making? What demographic is being catered when women are objectified, the women who are socially conditioned into it or the men who benefit from socially conditioning them into objects?

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Originally Posted by MsQi

It's because of cultural norms and what is popularly considered attractive for men vs women. I don't know what your hangup is on "performance".

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Okay, why? Why is that the cultural norm? Why are hyper-sexualized/performative outfits considered more attractive on women than men? Why is it more attractive for men to be practical? Why is it so normal to the point where, you saw the screenshot, 5+ pants turn into short-shorts the moment a female is wearing them when the pants would look COMPLETELY normal on women characters as well? The shorts are not the default design. Why? Because they look "cuter"? Why is the default female outfit "cute" or "sexy"?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

This.

Plus despite what subversive elements may seek to push, many men are happy embracing their masculinity much in the same way as many women are happy embracing their femininity. Exceptions exist, of course, but they're very much a minority albeit a very vocal one at that.

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What is "their" masculinity and "their" femininity? What does this mean?

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

What are we including in feminine clothing? Suffocating underwear in fabrics that can cause yeast infections? Heels that destroy tendon structure to the point of chronic pain and lack of ability to walk properly without them the more often they're worn? Clothes that show more skin? Bra's that exist for almost no reason for a majority of the female populace except to hide the female nipple as it has been deemed "vulgar" yet also hyper-sexualizing what's "allowed" in the form of push-up bras and cleavage? I have to assume you mean these specifically enforced clothing choices for WOMEN because if you're talking about BODY TYPES, then that's completely null as there are so many different types between the sexes, that to deem one style meant for men and one for women just through sheer "designed for them" is absurd (surely that's not your argument, that short-shorts, mini-skirts, boob windows, are all designed for the "feminine" forms out of the sheer fact that they look "better" on them, otherwise men would be wearing these as often if they were a. short b. dainty and/or c. not incredibly muscular as stereotypically, those are deemed feminine features).

So I'll assume you mean clothing designed for females. How are heels that destroy ligament integrity designed for women? Would they not look good on a man who has broad hips and long legs? That's what they're advertised to accentuate, yet somehow it's a general expectancy for women to wear them regardless of hip size/leg length and men aren't expected to wear them no matter their body shape. They would destroy men's feet just the same if they wore them as often as women were expected to (not so much as high-heel laws dont exist too often anymore, socially its still more expected out of them). How is impractical underwear that can cause multiple issues with vagina health designed more for women, when those same fabrics would cause LESS issues on men? Why are men not wearing lacey underwear more when it has an incredibly lower chance of causing any genital issues? Why are men with large amounts of breast tissue not advised to wear bras to help with back pain and/or look more put-together in a professional environment?

I know why. And you know why, as well. Men don't usually like wearing clothing designed for women because it signifies a role and that role is to be objectified. But it's a lot easier to convince women to be okay with being objectified if you argue that it's any reason BUT that.

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Most female centric clothing is designed by females. Your arguments around fabrics are odd, considering you can just get clothing with different fabric. Nobody is forcing you to wear anything. Heels, Skirts, etc... are all personal choices you make. Same with glamour in 14.

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

But what do you mean "why does it matter"?

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Well, why does it matter if people's preferences are socially conditioned? That doesn't change the fact people now have a preference for certain things. And if you're a business, you'd want to cater to those preferences. And this is assuming that male/female interests are solely socially conditioned, which they are not.

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

Where are your statistics that a majority of women prefer feminine styles?

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:rolleyes: Do I need to cite a source if I say the sky is blue, too?

You're really hung up on the whole women being objectified thing and I can sense some disdain there, but it's really not that deep. Everyone's different, people have different preferences. Not all women like feminine clothing, and that's fine. But there are plenty of women, the majority even, that do enjoy more feminine clothing because they like how they look in that style. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Because feminine clothing is constructed around the feminine form, ere go it tends to look bad on the masculine form.

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Also like I get this to an extent but also I specifically asked why women don't get basic, practical versions of outfits and and men get the performative version of it. What would the equivalent of that be with pants for women and something excessive and different for men? Why does that not exist in the game? At the very least, why are there no default outfits where it's shown to be a min-skirt and then CHANGES to pants on a man at the very least!?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Most female centric clothing is designed by females. Your arguments around fabrics are odd, considering you can just get clothing with different fabric. Nobody is forcing you to wear anything. Heels, Skirts, etc... are all personal choices you make. Same with glamour in 14.

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Most female-centric clothing is designed by men. Most high end fashion designers that influence style are men. Most businesses that sell clothing are ran by men. You're just wrong there. Feminine clothing was brought up, and clearly you haven't walked into a woman's underwear section where most of the underwear is either incredibly impractical or unhealthy fabrics, and if it is 100% pure cotton, it's either incredibly tight where the "breathability" is immediately non-existent or you get the completely normal underwear that you passively hear everyone make fun of as granny panties.

Except FFXIV directly is forcing women into feminine articles of clothing which is literally this entire fucking post. There are countless job outfits that exist as default pants in the item icon and then turn into skirts in the game. The Non La I specifically brought up looks like the male version in the item icon, and turns into a completely over-decorated, undyable pink version of it. Anything else?

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BFVWN/ho....gif?w=400&c=1

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

Most female-centric clothing is designed by men. Most high end fashion designers that influence style are men. Most businesses that sell clothing are ran by men. You're just wrong there. Feminine clothing was brought up, and clearly you haven't walked into a woman's underwear section where most of the underwear is either incredibly impractical or unhealthy fabrics, and if it is 100% pure cotton, it's either incredibly tight where the "breathability" is immediately non-existent or you get the completely normal underwear that you passively hear everyone make fun of as granny panties.

Except FFXIV directly is forcing women into feminine articles of clothing which is literally this entire fucking post. There are countless job outfits that exist as default pants in the item icon and then turn into skirts in the game. The Non La I specifically brought up looks like the male version in the item icon, and turns into a completely over-decorated, undyable pink version of it. Anything else?

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You have tons of pant options to substitute for skirts. You have different hat options. You have options across the board.

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Originally Posted by Senn

:rolleyes: Do I need to cite a source if I say the sky is blue, too?

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Of course not! But if you say the sky is blue because a bunch of blue faries just decide to hang out up there during the day, then you'd probably have to get some proof to back it up before people started looking at you like you were crazy, which is why I clarified if those statistics would consider outside factors that actively impede a woman's life if she does not conform for the feminine standard. Because when you say "a majority of women prefer feminine styles", you're implying that your proof is just that a lot of women wear them. Clear cut example, in ffxiv, when you don't have the option to otherwise, how does that correlate to "wanting" to, rather than "feel forced to" or "have to".

Chicken or the egg, did women naturally want to keep being enforced into outfits that require rigorous focus on themselves by showing skin that they must shave before they show, shirts that show off their chest tastefully yet not too much depending on how they want to come across because their chests can't just exist, or does someone benefit from convincing women to continuously police their own outfits to fit a standard that gets the foot off their neck slightly? Would love you to take a look into objectification studies and how men literally trigger parts of their brain when viewing scantily-clothed women as if they're looking at a lamp (aka object), how people on average preform worse when theyre being watched, and how women preformed worse on a test dressed in a bathing suit than when dressed in a way they could choose with no other changed factors (no one actually watching them). Pretty interesting when it all comes together.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

You have tons of pant options to substitute for skirts. You have different hat options. You have options across the board.

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You misunderstand. I dont want substitutes or "different" options because I'm female and got stuck with an article of clothing that was othered from the original design. I want default clothing to exist in the game and for them to make a different article if theyre going to make a different article. I would be completely satisfied if the inherent class outfits were mini-skirt and men had to wear it as well, cause then were all in it together <3

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

You misunderstand. I dont want substitutes or "different" options because I'm female and got stuck with an article of clothing that was othered from the original design. I want default clothing to exist in the game and for them to make a different article if theyre going to make a different article. I would be completely satisfied if the inherent class outfits were mini-skirt and men had to wear it as well, cause then were all in it together <3

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Male characters have to do it all the time, see WHM sets. Furthermore, how many people glam one compete set? Seem to be limiting yourself creatively. However, I feel this anger isn't necessarily 14 based, but it's being used as a vehicle to be angry about some broader issue.

Love how its just swarms of "I want my male character to be sexualized" and "why aren't you okay with women being inherently sexualized?" when all i want is a fucking Non La that doesn't look like a fucking doll hat if I'm a female character. Exhausting. Just say y'all are uncomfortable with a woman not wanting to sexualize herself and move on please its the same opinion over and over.

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

Just say y'all are uncomfortable with a woman not wanting to sexualize herself and move on please its the same opinion over and over.

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You're just making up enemies that don't exist here lol

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Originally Posted by Senn

You're just making up enemies that don't exist here lol

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? Dead ass u think that this is a normal reaction for someone asking for the default version of an article of clothing to exist on females?

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Originally Posted by Carmabis

u think that this is a normal reaction for someone asking for the default version of an article of clothing to exist on females?

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Could say the same about your reactions

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Not skirts, no, but often times the chest pieces are overly feminine. Same with AST sets. Also, you have other options for hat of a similar look.

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I absolutely do think the astrologian set looks weird on men, because I also thought it looked fucking weird on women too. But you can't give me a mini-skirt example because there isn't one and you're trying to shove the goal-post closer when it has nothing to do with my original point in the first place. The healer-sets do not over-sexualize/over-feminize the male characters in RELATION to the female characters wearing them, and they give you what's advertised in the icon. In fact, I still think they trade out skirts for pants most of the time.

There is dead ass no hat like the Non La unless you go samurai which I guess fucking worked out for SE cause im playing more leveling that class to get a fucking hat to hang over my eyes but literally there is no glamour item that looks like the male version of that hat.

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Originally Posted by Senn

Could say the same about your reactions

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reactions to what? Care to describe what I'm responding to?

y'all succeed with killing this post tho since I take shit lying down but I'll be back in a month to post it again, you'll all see

I eagerly await the next season of this thread.

I'd argue there is a serious discrepancy between Miqo'te / Lalas x every other playable race in animation quality specifically. It's very telling how the animations, be them emote or just walk/run animations, is often cited as a reason why people fantasia into one of the two.