So apparently Dragon Kick spam Monk rotation is a thing and it's disgusting

Dragon kick is the coolest move Monk has so all is in order

they would probably just move the potency to opo opo doesn't change the rotation at all but kills the healer gameplay for monk

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

$100 says the positional doesn't come back. It'll lose some potency. They'll either give the potency to SP, or not give it back at all, which is fine by me cause they shouldn't have buffed monk in the first place.

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obviously positionals won't return and they will just tweak the potency but I just find it hilarious that when they removed the potency they didn't foresee the players spamming one button. Positionals were literally there in the first place to prevent that from happening, as you lose potency if you don't hit it correctly but now, its 320 from anywhere on the boss. Not to mention if you have a DNC partner...

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Positionals were literally there in the first place to prevent that from happening, as you lose potency if you don't hit it correctly but now, its 320 from anywhere on the boss. Not to mention if you have a DNC partner...

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Yes and no, it's not solely the lack of positionals that caused this but it is related. It's the result of bringing Bootshine and DK's potency too close together, Chakra tying its acquisition to crit RNG and downtime being largely inconsequential because there's literally nothing to do outside of RoF/PB.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Like seriously, who the heck are you? The game itself is great for the story. The actual mechanics and overall class deisng is shambolic and boring. Too repititive and unrepsonsive, REALLY noticeable in modes meant to show off skill (pvp). The game can be good, but it would need a whole new engine and netcode.

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Who I am don’t matter, I just hope you remembered the old comments you made from many MnK threads.
Or are you the type that always forget what you were saying ?
Are you still playing MNK these days ?
You said you liked the current MnK so much.

Don’t run away from what you said.

Nerf Dragon Kick potency by 20. Buff True Strike potency by 20. Buff Elixir Field potency by 40 if need be.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nerf Dragon Kick potency by 20. Buff True Strike potency by 20. Buff Elixir Field potency by 40 if need be.

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I'd be one to call just a nerf to Dragon Kick and that's all. Monk honestly didn't deserve a buff and they got a Phantom Rush buff. I'm sure most rational monk mains were like, "Didn't need it but thanks I guess."

Easy tweak to fix it just move some potency off dk and pop ot elsewhere. So many salty at monk having gotten a buff and idk why they seem to take it as a personal insult.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Easy tweak to fix it just move some potency off dk and pop ot elsewhere. So many salty at monk having gotten a buff and idk why they seem to take it as a personal insult.

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No one is salty but many questions SQEX decisions. It received a buff when it was already one of the best jobs.
MNK is simply slightly too high.

Remind yourself it has one of the best movement tool and survival support. Among the melees, only RPR has survival support and it was nerfed.
What's the point of even thinking about picking Samurai?

You can nerf Dragon Kick and MNK will still remain a very good job.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

No one is salty but many questions SQEX decisions. It received a buff when it was already one of the best jobs.
MNK is simply slightly too high.

Remind yourself it has one of the best movement tool and survival support. Among the melees, only RPR has survival support and it was nerfed.
What's the point of even thinking about picking Samurai?

You can nerf Dragon Kick and MNK will still remain a very good job.

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It's not like it's the 1st time SE screwed up with MNK, the entirety of SB was a testament to that. Between the Slow effect on Riddle of Fire and then the change to Perfect Balance that gave birth to the Tornado Kick rotation later on in the expansion, it's every clear that MNK is not one of their best thought out jobs and it's not as though Mantra wasn't also nerfed in the past with the justification being to make Nature's Minnie on BRD better by extension since BRD was absolute garbage in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

It's not like it's the 1st time SE screwed up with MNK, the entirety of SB was a testament to that. Between the Slow effect on Riddle of Fire and then the change to Perfect Balance that gave birth to the Tornado Kick rotation later on in the expansion, it's every clear that MNK is not one of their best thought out jobs and it's not as though Mantra wasn't also nerfed in the past with the justification being to make Nature's Minnie on BRD better by extension since BRD was absolute garbage in ShB.

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Perfect Balance wasn't changed to birth the TK rotation. The TK rotation was afforded by the change to Wind Tackle -> Riddle of Wind and (in part, by RoF's slow giving room for double-weaves for higher-ping players and triple-weaves for low-ping players -- TK, FoW, WT, <GCD>, RoW...).

And it's worth noting that RoF's damage buff was huge for its time, plenty worth its effectively sacrificing GL's speed bonus to more than double its damage bonus over high-oGCD-potency periods, and offered ways to resync rotation for future bursts.

Late Stormblood Monk was odd, but far from awful, be that in performance or play.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nerf Dragon Kick potency by 20. Buff True Strike potency by 20. Buff Elixir Field potency by 40 if need be.

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Wouldn't this encourage a Skillspeed breakpoint for a double-true rotation?

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

Wouldn't this [siphoning 20 potency from Dragon Kick to True Strike] encourage a Skillspeed breakpoint for a double-true rotation?

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Slightly, but such would, imo, be for the best. Is a Monk that wants to actively avoid any and all additional speed really even a Monk?

Given how disadvantaged SkS is otherwise, having a useful threshold (that will likely also offer greater complexity and flexibility in Blitz usage down the line) would merely make the stat less costly, improving stat choice and, slightly, available job depth.

The main thing here, though, is that at present True Strike only even provides some 60-80 potency per minute, depending on SkS. The value of having it on one's bar at all amounts to about a single Chakra per minute. It's... rather pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Perfect Balance wasn't changed to birth the TK rotation. The TK rotation was afforded by the change to Wind Tackle -> Riddle of Wind and (in part, by RoF's slow giving room for double-weaves for higher-ping players and triple-weaves for low-ping players -- TK, FoW, WT, <GCD>, RoW...).

And it's worth noting that RoF's damage buff was huge for its time, plenty worth its effectively sacrificing GL's speed bonus to more than double its damage bonus over high-oGCD-potency periods, and offered ways to resync rotation for future bursts.

Late Stormblood Monk was odd, but far from awful, be that in performance or play.

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They reduced the CD on Perfect Balance, which was all that was needed for the TK rotation to come into fruition. Riddle of Wind was a part of it, sure but it didn't make it possible on its own.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

They reduced the CD on Perfect Balance, which was all that was needed for the TK rotation to come into fruition. Riddle of Wind was a part of it, sure but it didn't make it possible on its own.

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The TK rotation also hinged on the Tornado Kick's potency being bugged. TK did around 440 potency but the the tooltip said it was doing 320 or so.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Slightly, but such would, imo, be for the best. Is a Monk that wants to actively avoid any and all additional speed really even a Monk?

Given how disadvantaged SkS is otherwise, having a useful threshold (that will likely also offer greater complexity and flexibility in Blitz usage down the line) would merely make the stat less costly, improving stat choice and, slightly, available job depth.

The main thing here, though, is that at present True Strike only even provides some 60-80 potency per minute, depending on SkS. The value of having it on one's bar at all amounts to about a single Chakra per minute. It's... rather pathetic.

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I would like to see the devs play with the idea of making mnk a 1.5 gcd job. It already can reach that in DRS and it feels intense.

just give the monk a new passive that for each time you press your main 6 skills once you get a ogc six sided star. no more dragonkick spam, and at least that way we get to use that skill. suck a cool animation for a skill and you never get to see it.

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Originally Posted by Arisme

just give the monk a new passive that for each time you press your main 6 skills once you get a ogcd six sided star. no more dragonkick spam, and at least that way we get to use that skill. suck a cool animation for a skill and you never get to see it.

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So, lose an actual thoughtful, albeit situational, skill and replace it with pure fluff?

Also, that would cripple optimal drift, alternate SkS tiers, and virtually all other alterations from which the majority of Monk's skill ceiling arises.

Hard pass.

And here i thought i was busy building up my beast chakra beads, because that's where the big damage is.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I would like to see the devs play with the idea of making mnk a 1.5 gcd job. It already can reach that in DRS and it feels intense.

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The issue there is that until the devs fix up the way the game handles animation locks, anyone with over 150 ms wouldn't be able to even single-weave without clipping. (In actuality, due to weirdly low poll rate for this game, problems could occur well before 150 ms. See MCH during Overheated, from Hypercharge.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, lose an actual thoughtful, albeit situational, skill and replace it with pure fluff?

Also, that would cripple optimal drift, alternate SkS tiers, and virtually all other alterations from which the majority of Monk's skill ceiling arises.

Hard pass.

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i really dont care, i just want an excuse to use six sided start. it could be the most comboluted rotation that missalign all the skills and buff..... dont care, i just want cool animations. having the same animation for bootshine since level 1 even when is buffed with leaden fist.... thats a travesty.

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Originally Posted by Arisme

i really dont care, i just want an excuse to use six sided start. it could be the most comboluted rotation that missalign all the skills and buff..... dont care, i just want cool animations. having the same animation for bootshine since level 1 even when is buffed with leaden fist.... thats a travesty.

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Wouldn't the simple solution then be to add upgrade skills at some point for some animation variance or for the empowering procs to adjust their affected skills animations... not to prune more thoughtful skills in favor of fluff and purposely fettered rotations?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, lose an actual thoughtful, albeit situational, skill and replace it with pure fluff?

Also, that would cripple optimal drift, alternate SkS tiers, and virtually all other alterations from which the majority of Monk's skill ceiling arises.

Hard pass.

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Not sure what you mean with cripple Optimal Drift?
Altho it'd definitely make an already cramped window even more cramped, I've made my distate of wasted Chakras known before this would only add to that.
I feel like the even windows are already kinda pushing the limit as it is for how fast we can go, I'd rather not have another recurring ogcd there.

I am thinkin of all the weird situations you could end up in beyond that too and yeah.
I am not particularly fond of the idea of having to make even more decisions than I am already making, SSS as a ogcd like that would be very strange and sweaty as hell.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Not sure what you mean with cripple Optimal Drift?
Altho it'd definitely make an already cramped window even more cramped...

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Optimal drift has nothing to do with animation locks. It's a reordering of certain skills away from their normal priority/timing scheme, for benefits down the line.
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Arisme's suggestion was to make SSS an oGCD each time you cycle through all 6 ST rotational weaponskills. That's worth an extra 92 ppgcd if you can stick to just those 6 forms.

Aside from the obvious net balance issues, this induces further internal balance problems that badly worsen flexibility and contradict basic tenets of MNK play (well before ever getting to issues of constraining adjustments as done for Optimal Drift, making otherwise full use of Solar windows, etc.).

6s of Demolish, for instance, is worth only 140 potency. The 3 GCDs worth of oGCD-SSS contribution, bottlenecked by Demolish (if one were to instead delay the proc's readiness by 3 GCDs by using another Snap instead of replacing Demolish early) would cost one 275 potency, thus making Demolish's apparent duration... a trap.

More simply put, you'd have one 6-step rotation (Twin-Demo-Dragon-True-Snap-Boot) and only that rotation, ever, outside of Lunar cycles, which could themselves include notable potency loss by delaying SSS procs for 3-6 GCDs (costing you 275-550 potency).

Tl;dr: It's a really, really bad idea. And even if the generating procedure were sensible, such as by having every weaponskill contribute to SSS procs regardless, it'd still just siphon more thoughtful play and remove a situational skill in favor of hit-immediately-upon-availability oGCD fluff -- an extra-TFC-but-without-RNG-or-any-interactions).

At that point MNK would just be a less amusing DRG. There are far more graceful methods of giving SSS a way to fit into the rotation without having to sacrifice its use as a tool so we can have the best of both worlds.

SSS is a cool ability but it would have a lot more use cases if the devs didn't cater to MUH MELEE UPTIME players and didn't design every single fight around being able to DPS the boss like a target dummy even though downtime optimization is a huge part of what makes playing melee interesting. It's not an issue with SSS it's an issue with boss design being too streamlined.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Optimal drift has nothing to do with animation locks. It's a reordering of certain skills away from their normal priority/timing scheme, for benefits down the line.
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Arisme's suggestion was to make SSS an oGCD each time you cycle through all 6 ST rotational weaponskills. That's worth an extra 92 ppgcd if you can stick to just those 6 forms.

Aside from the obvious net balance issues, this induces further internal balance problems that badly worsen flexibility and contradict basic tenets of MNK play (well before ever getting to issues of constraining adjustments as done for Optimal Drift, making otherwise full use of Solar windows, etc.).

6s of Demolish, for instance, is worth only 140 potency. The 3 GCDs worth of oGCD-SSS contribution, bottlenecked by Demolish (if one were to instead delay the proc's readiness by 3 GCDs by using another Snap instead of replacing Demolish early) would cost one 275 potency, thus making Demolish's apparent duration... a trap.

More simply put, you'd have one 6-step rotation (Twin-Demo-Dragon-True-Snap-Boot) and only that rotation, ever, outside of Lunar cycles, which could themselves include notable potency loss by delaying SSS procs for 3-6 GCDs (costing you 275-550 potency).

Tl;dr: It's a really, really bad idea. And even if the generating procedure were sensible, such as by having every weaponskill contribute to SSS procs regardless, it'd still just siphon more thoughtful play and remove a situational skill in favor of hit-immediately-upon-availability oGCD fluff -- an extra-TFC-but-without-RNG-or-any-interactions).

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Oh right, I misunderstood what Arisme was saying then.
I thought they meant ALL Weaponskills would build up to it.

It makes sense what you meant then and why it'd screw up Optimal Drift.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

At that point MNK would just be a less amusing DRG. There are far more graceful methods of giving SSS a way to fit into the rotation without having to sacrifice its use as a tool so we can have the best of both worlds.

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Anatman could make SSS an ogcd if you charged it for long enough.

Personally I'm not big on the idea of tacking more downtime features onto Anatman because that skill's existence was always fundamentally unnecessary (even when Greased Lightning was still a thing) and putting more onto it doesn't really solve the major issue with it being that SE doesn't design many fights for it to be used at length anyway.

That doesn't mean I want to see it deleted though, I just don't think channel skills really belong on MNK.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Personally I'm not big on the idea of tacking more downtime features onto Anatman because that skill's existence was always fundamentally unnecessary (even when Greased Lightning was still a thing) and putting more onto it doesn't really solve the major issue with it being that SE doesn't design many fights for it to be used at length anyway.

That doesn't mean I want to see it deleted though, I just don't think channel skills really belong on MNK.

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Not really wrong, at least it'd make Anatman feel a little bit more useful tho and be able to fit SSS in at times too.
There's definitely parts where it would work like in the dive phase in P3S.

If it worked outside of combat too you could charge it up for the opener too maybe.
But yeah I do agree that I am not a fan of channeled skills on MNK either.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Anatman could make SSS an ogcd if you charged it for long enough.

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If Anatman itself were worthwhile and taken back off the GCD, that too would provide synergy with SSS.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If Anatman itself were worthwhile and taken back off the GCD, that too would provide synergy with SSS.

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Tbh tho I think Anatman should just be redesigned entirely lol.
I think it's the only skill I'd legit have no reaction to if it was removed.

I think a unique and cool thing would be if Anatman was a button you just pressed and it charged in the background even with moving and using Weaponskills, and then when it finished charging it unlocked an empowered ogcd SSS or a new skill entirely.
MNK already revolves a lot around managing timings, it'd be cool if they expanded on that.

I kinda do like the concept of MNK's channeling their inner power to unleash strong attacks, I just don't like standing there charging it while doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I think a unique and cool thing would be if Anatman was a button you just pressed and it charged in the background even with moving and using Weaponskills, and then when it finished charging it unlocked an empowered ogcd SSS or a new skill entirely.

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So just a standard, albeit delayed-effect, ability? I wouldn't hate it, but I also don't mind Anatman being a channel.

I feel like the channel just needs actual reward -- not so much as to force its use during uptime, but enough to diminish the loss of 3-10 seconds of downtime enough that it's worth having on one's hotbar. Extending Disciplined Fist is not sufficient for that.

If we were actually getting greater versatility in exchange for removing Anatman, I'd be fine with that, but the core of Endwalker Monk (relative to the core designs of say, late Stormblood, etc.) is simplicity-first, and complexity where inadvertent, so any added versatility seems unlikely. Given that, I'm not fond of the idea of removing it outright, nor turning it into a mere hit-on-CD (that would siphon power from the rest of the kit anyways).

What if six sided star was an ogcd that became usable after hitting 6 positionals? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the complaints but that seems fine to me.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKumiho

What if six sided star was an ogcd that became usable after hitting 6 positionals? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the complaints but that seems fine to me.

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That slightly depends on what you mean by "6 positionals". There are, after all, three possibilities.

1. You actually meant "positionals", so this can only generate off of Snap Punch and Demolish.

This would mean that it's usable roughly once per 36 seconds, but at least Solar feels a little less bad compared to Lunar, I guess? Not that you had any choice between them outside of a delay-PR opener...

2. You mean skills that formerly had positionals, meaning any single-target weaponskill. You also meant any weaponskill would suffice.

This effectively turns SSS into an oGCD usable every <12 seconds, offering an extra 92ppgcd around which the entire job would have to be nerfed greatly, due to which its downtime potential would slightly further decline unless those nerfs targeted only weaponskills. More likely, SSS itself would be nerfed to the ground and, since it'd still then be free potency instead of an option with some mild accordant utility, the job at 80+ would be nerfed around it to maintain the same ppm.

Moreover, this would greatly exacerbate the problems The Forbidden Chakra / Enlightenment already faces, as there'd be zero banking available. You either use it precisely after every sixth GCD, or you waste a sixth of its value per GCD.

3. You mean skills that formerly had positionals, meaning any single-target weaponskill, but in the sense of "the 6 positionals".

That means you have to hit one each of DK, Boot, Twin, True, Demo, and Snap. In that case, you've just screwed over all Monk rotational depth, forcing it into a fixed combo. And you've removed the polyrhythm of Demolish being every 9th GCD instead of every 6th, because it'd be a DPS loss to hold back the completion of SSS's 6-weaponskills requirement just to get the extra 2 ticks out of Demolish.

And... all those problems don't even account for your having removed an option from MNK to replace it with a "hit when flashing" oGCD that eats up your weave space and draws budget away from more skillful play.

It's maybe one step better than asking for auto-attack buffs (while maintaining the same ppm, and thereby nerfing the rest of the--more skill-dependent--kit just to have them.)