The Expert roulette design is extremely bad

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Two people have mentioned "scaling up" other dungeons to be included in Expert Roulette now.

The only content they've ever "scaled up" are Unreal Trials.
We get one of those per patch, excluding expansions.
It's clearly not a resource efficient form of content and an unrealistic suggestion.

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Just do more work, forehead. =D

Folks really out here just acting like "scaling up" a dungeon is as simple as "make everything level 90."

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Just do more work, forehead. =D

Folks really out here just acting like "scaling up" a dungeon is as simple as "make everything level 90."

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Unless they've made extremely poor design decisions that have somehow totally boxed them into a corner, it actually really shouldn't be that complex of a process.

Actually, on second thought the extremely poor design decisions thing seems kind of likely.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Just do more work, forehead. =D

Folks really out here just acting like "scaling up" a dungeon is as simple as "make everything level 90."

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I don't think much people here are saying that things are easy to do, but are simply suggesting any kind of change to a system that is bad. Are players not allowed to give ideas to highlight a problem with a system? Truth is everyone knows very little about their workflow and what's possible or not, we can only discuss possibilities for things.

I would rather have "hard modes" of these dungeons instead of them just scaling up.
So, something kinda similar to what they are doing with the trials.
Hard mode Anima, please.

I wouldn't mind Expert roulette to involve all the endgame dungeons of an expansion, instead of just the latest 1-2. Separating them by patch always felt redundant imo.

Nobody's saying "Making an old dungeon into a level 90 is *easy*"
People are saying "An Unreal Dungeon sounds way easier than making a completely new dungeon, from scratch, which is what we'd all obviously prefer"

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Do you know what an expert dungeon is?

Ofc it will be 3 dungeons, because only those 3 are the level 90 ones (duh).

When .1 releases, the expert dungeons may change to another one, and the same will appply for .2/3/4/5 content.

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That is why his title was "The Expert roulette design is extremely bad".

Since it's garbage and not worth the time

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Originally Posted by Jin-

That is why his title was "The Expert roulette design is extremely bad".

Since it's garbage and not worth the time

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What I gather from your comment, is that it is somehow a flawed design or a bad choice of resources that expert roulette is consistently updated as new dungeons are released in later patches? This makes absolutely zero sense.

And no one is twisting your arm to run it. Expert roulette is entirely optional. Are you sure this comment is even your own? Because this doesn't make any sense either. As it stands now, expert roulette is the most efficient means to acquire the latest tomes. Hell, even without the daily bonus just running the dungeons involved in the roulette is the best way I can think to farm your currency.

Imo I think it'd be cool if they added '' expert '' difficulty to old dungeons and made them more difficult and part of the roulette.

It does become painful when you run the same dungeons repeatedly not gonna lie.

You don’t have to roulette, even if you choose to, the bonus is only once a day, then you can pick whatever you want to do. It’s working as designed.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Just do more work, forehead. =D

Folks really out here just acting like "scaling up" a dungeon is as simple as "make everything level 90."

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There's a difference between "this is harder than you make it out to be" and claiming that "this is an unrealistic suggestion" by which to reach the given effect.

Consider the alternative means of reaching greater content variety without having to sync down:

1. Making more dungeons, traditionally.
2. Making hard mode dungeons -- which still save relatively little time, all for a much less original dungeon.

That's it.

Learning how to scale dungeons is doubtless going to have an investment cost, but doing so provides us with literal expansions worth of additional level-cap content. Rather than some dozen dungeons per expansion, we'd have, per expansion, a dozen more. Rather than merely 2-3 of those being relevant at a time, we'd could regularly rotate through at least several.

To achieve even nearly that same effect otherwise would require we more than quadruple the rate at which we produce new dungeons. That seems the far less realistic.

At best, given that learning how to scale past content procedurally is still almost certain to be most efficient long-term solution, calling such "unrealistic" is to really just a euphemism for "shut up and take your incredibly limited grind-loop; any significant improvement is not worth pursuing."

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Originally Posted by Garnix

I would rather have "hard modes" of these dungeons instead of them just scaling up.
So, something kinda similar to what they are doing with the trials.
Hard mode Anima, please.

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So my suggestion is to just get the tech down to scale them up to provide variety into the expert roullette. There are some ABSOLUTELY amazing dungeons in Endwalker than I do not expect to ever see again outside of explorer mode.

My basic idea is if Square Enix is going to expend the time to develop all of these dungeons then why not put them somewhere that end game characters might actually want to do them unless these guys are just that hardcore devoted to making the MSQ this god mode experience with a dungeon that takes months to develop that people might do at most once.

Maybe Square Enix does not realize this but by creating Bozja you basically killed your leveling roulette post lvl 71 because it is EXTREMELY more efficient to do Skirmishes than any of the roulettes.

you would be having Expert Roulette and lvl90 Roulette soon, to be able to rotate the gear tiers that is.

Either way you get rewarded for using both.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There's a difference between "this is harder than you make it out to be" and claiming that "this is an unrealistic suggestion" by which to reach the given effect.

Consider the alternative means of reaching greater content variety without having to sync down:

1. Making more dungeons, traditionally.
2. Making hard mode dungeons -- which still save relatively little time, all for a much less original dungeon.

That's it.

Learning how to scale dungeons is doubtless going to have an investment cost, but doing so provides us with literal expansions worth of additional level-cap content. Rather than some dozen dungeons per expansion, we'd have, per expansion, a dozen more. Rather than merely 2-3 of those being relevant at a time, we'd could regularly rotate through at least several.

To achieve even nearly that same effect otherwise would require we more than quadruple the rate at which we produce new dungeons. That seems the far less realistic.

At best, given that learning how to scale past content procedurally is still almost certain to be most efficient long-term solution, calling such "unrealistic" is to really just a euphemism for "shut up and take your incredibly limited grind-loop; any significant improvement is not worth pursuing."

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So much this, it's a short-term investement for a long-term reward.

In the end of the day FFXIV is designed to keep old content relevant it's fair to expect it to be a bit better than it is currently.
It increases the overall enjoyment of the game.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Its a short term investment that no one will do. Hard Modes were already done, and no one did them.

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If they were part of the roulette people would.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Its a short term investment that no one will do. Hard Modes were already done, and no one did them.

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Yes, they did, in the exact same way and to the exact same degree as any other dungeon in the Expert Roulette. People didn't just suddenly stop doing Expert Roulette whenever there was a Hard Mode dungeon added (or rather, only start doing Expert Roulette when Hard Mode dungeons stopped being produced, since back then there was a Hard Mode dungeon added every patch).

Not that the periodic costs of remodeling, rerouting, repopulating, and redesigning the encounters of a dungeon has much to do with designing a procedure by which to scale up any and all dungeons. Except perhaps to be the example of a far less efficient way to increase content variety available to our most efficient weekly grind loop.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Then stop begging tanks to queue.

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As someone who only queues into expert as DPS, there is no need to beg for tanks to queue. The roulette reward itself (along with adventurer in need bonus) is enough to get a tank to queue.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

On the broader topic of this thread, it's not hyperbolic to say that limiting the most effective means of weekly currency acquisition to 2-3 dungeons wastes an obvious opportunity to scale up older content, be that between caps or at old level-caps, into enjoyable relevance.

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I'm not sure it'll be more relevant just because you scale it up rather than sync down.

Even in WoW, I still remember that one tank early in BfA's release that very quickly solo'd Freehold's final boss on Normal difficulty while the rest of the party were dealing with the third boss.

FFXIV's dungeons are already easy enough (especially without level and item level syncs) without throwing in WoW's method of scaling up dungeons. And even if FFXIV can be more careful with scaling up dungeons, that'll probably just slow down development and it'll be closer to Unreal for dungeons. Or, if not, they'll have to change how the current sync works, and in all probability, it'll just be worse than the current situation. That doesn't sound appealing just to have leveling content scaled for level cap jobs.

I do think Expert could just have the entire level cap dungeons, though. That, in the long run, gives enough variety for the roulette throughout the expansion without having to deal with scaling issues.

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Nor is it hyperbolic to say that level cap content largely goes unseen after its expansion, especially given that the 50/60/70/80/etc. roulette has almost rarely been as exp-efficient as current dungeons or FATE grinds.

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I don't think that really matters. People have plenty of chances of running the dungeons when they're on Expert. They also can still run them more in the other level cap dungeon roulette afterward or the previous expansions' level cap roulette in future expansions.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

They used to be part of roulette. They aren't anymore for a reason.

No one did the Hard Modes when queuing DF roulettes. You had more broken groups and runs when people bailed because "lol content too hard".

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"<Dungeon Title> (Hard)" dungeons were no harder than any other dungeon of the same tier. They were literally just "<Dungeon Title> version 2".

Heck, "Pharos Sirius (Hard)" was, despite giving 10 levels' more skills to work with, easier than the original "Pharos Sirius", as was "Amdapor Keep (Hard)", and arguably a good half of "(Hard)" Modes. "(Hard)" is literally just the game's notation for a v2 that isn't yet serious content. (You'll note that new primals skip that tier entirely, because, in this game, Hard has traditionally meant "no harder than normal mode, if the original was level capped, just higher level" or "the level cap version of an incredibly easy leveling fight" (see Titan, Garuda, and Ifrit for examples).

How... did you not know this? And why are you promoting policy when this badly misinformed?

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They used to be part of roulette. They aren't anymore for a reason.

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And that reason, according to Yoshi-P, is that it was too large a reoccurring drain on development resources to make 3 dungeons than 2 (and eventually 2 than 1). Hard Mode dungeons weren't cropped in particular; the devs just started making fewer dungeons altogether and remained committed to at least one of those dungeons per patch still being original, so eventually that one original dungeon per patch cycle was all we still got.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Mentor Roulettes.
Hard Modes were to hard for DF when they were relevant, they would be too hard now. No one did them in DF when they were available, and no one would do them in DF now. And no amount of obfuscating or conflation for what Yoshida has said is going to change that.

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Let me get this straight:

The dungeons (unless you're referring to the likes of "Titan (Hard)") which tended to be easier among their tiers were somehow too hard for mentor roulettes and this, despite Yoshida having said such was due to having too limited of resources to do otherwise other forms of side-content, is the real reason dungeon count per patch was reduced?

______

And while we're at it, let's be clear here, too: The idea that "it was hard then, so it'd be too hard now" is complete bogus. Yes, there was a time when Titan (Hard) was difficult for even for normal-ping players. That time is not now.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Not sure how many others feel this way but Endwalker had by my count 8 dungeons. When I look at the Expert Roulette no matter the expansion it is the same 3 dungeons recycled over and over and over.

I find this to be a horrible use of developer resources and time. What is the logical reason for not having all 8 dungeons in the expert queue?

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Probably because people would be more interested in running the latest ones as they are released... as opposed to have one chance in like 12+ dungeons by the end of the expansion. I'm fine with only being the 3 latest ones.

However, I'd welcome anything challenging for a light party in the current expansion, let it be a new deep dungeon, some sort of EX Dungeon mode...

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

To help get groups clears for Hard Mode dungeons and Trials

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The only "(Hard)" mode trials are, again, Titan, Ifrit, and Garuda. They are, also, not hard.

Here are the dungeons that got remakes: Copperbell Mines, Haukke Manor, Halatali, Brayflox's Longstop, The Stone Vigil, The Tam-Tara Deepcroft, Sastasha, The Sunken Temple of Qarn, The Wanderer's Palace, and Amdapor Keep; Pharos Sirius, The Lost City of Amdapor, Hullbreaker Isle, and The Great Gubal Library, Sohm Al; The Fractal Continuum, and Saint Mocianne's Arboretum. None were significantly harder than any other dungeon in their tier. Copperbell Mines (Hard) and Haukke Manor (Hard) were arguably much easier than the original dungeon of the same tier, Pharos Sirius; Halitali (Hard) and Brayflox (Hard) were both faster runs than the original dungeon of the same tier, Hullbreaker; Tam-tara Deepcroft (Hard) had only a single boss that was no more intuitive than Snowcloak's bosses and was no harder on the whole; even Amdapor Keep (Hard) was no harder than Keeper of the Lake in its time; Hullbreaker (Hard) was simpler and easier than Sohr Kai; etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

So, as fun as this is, I'm not arguing the devs choice to cut content that had low clear rates that should be reimplemented because somehow it'll be different this time. It won't be.

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None of the "(Hard)" content in this game had low clear rates by way of difficulty. At most, it was because all but Titan (Hard), Ifrit (Hard), and Garuda (Hard) weren't required to progress the MSQ.


Moreover, no one here had argued for the re-inclusion of v2 dungeons ("Hard modes" which, again, were no harder than any other dungeon). That's your strawman. The closest, and only be way of misnomer / overlapping terminology, was Garnix here:

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Originally Posted by Garnix

I would rather have "hard modes" of these dungeons instead of them just scaling up.
So, something kinda similar to what they are doing with the trials.
Hard mode Anima, please.

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Even his version is clearly different from simply reusing some of the old dungeon layout. (Which is the only thing that makes something "(Hard)" -- the fact that part of its assets had already been used. It has never, in this game, been a marker of dungeon difficulty.)

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Not sure how many others feel this way but Endwalker had by my count 8 dungeons. When I look at the Expert Roulette no matter the expansion it is the same 3 dungeons recycled over and over and over.

I find this to be a horrible use of developer resources and time. What is the logical reason for not having all 8 dungeons in the expert queue?

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As you can see people are extremely happy by doing 3 dungeons every 3 months.

"If you are not happy with it, unsub, don't queue, go play something else"

Instead of getting rid of level sync or actually trying to do something with older without nerfing your character back to press 1-2 for straight 20 minutes.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Hard Mode, challenging super elite not hard mode randomizer hampster wheel play every day so you hate the game content can STAY IN WoW WHERE IT BELONGS!

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Hard mode dungeons are no harder than regular dungeons in this game. The suffix "Hard" attached to a dungeon does not mean it is any harder. It. Literally. Only. Means. There are reused assets. That is it. That's all.

I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're merely painfully misinformed rather than outright trolling.

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Originally Posted by dapperfaffer

Maybe next time actually read posts instead of jumping into starting an argument with someone. Because this is the reality of Hard Mode dungeons being no harder than regular dungeons in the game, it means they aren't needed or a worthwhile prospect of content development to warrant resources.

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What? You're making zero sense. Maybe you should read the thread with a bit more caution instead of throwing nonsense around.

to OP: having so few dungeons in expert roulette sucks but throwing in weird sync versions of the levelling ones wouldn't make it better.

to dapperfaffer: stop removing your posts, it makes reading through the thread very annoying, if it wasn't for the quotes it makes it look like people responding to you are speaking to themselves. No matter how wrong what you say is.

Just change it to 81-90 and bingo bango you have 8 things to do now instead of 2.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

to OP: having so few dungeons in expert roulette sucks but throwing in weird sync versions of the levelling ones wouldn't make it better.

to dapperfaffer: stop removing your posts, it makes reading through the thread very annoying, if it wasn't for the quotes it makes it look like people responding to you are speaking to themselves. No matter how wrong what you say is.

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Doing an actually challenging version of Anima would be welcome. The sheer amount of time they put into some of these dungeons when we all know they will not be played again for years is just sad and seems like a god awful waste of resources.

Expert roulette should be the 81-90 or some type of sync with the mobs to 90 so that we do not lose abilities. Square Enix cannot keep pretending like they have added a large amount of dungeons to the MMO since ARR that has diluted the chances you would ever see the CURRENT EXPANSION dungeon ever again to below 5%.

It does not make sense to me that the current expansion dungeons are not utilized more than once especially when in my opinion they are far higher quality than the current selection.

If I had to guess it seems the current expert dungeons were picked because they are straight forward and brain dead easy to finish.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Doing an actually challenging version of Anima would be welcome. The sheer amount of time they put into some of these dungeons when we all know they will not be played again for years is just sad and seems like a god awful waste of resources.

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But see, you keep saying they won't played for years, and that's not true. They're in levelling roulette, and that roulette is done all the time. If anything, probably even more than expert roulette. Consider that a lot of people get their weekly tomes from either savage, or hunts, or maps, or what cap content have you. Especially in odd patches where hunts currency gives tome gear upgrades. Hell, some people don't even care about tomes, but that's a different matter.
But there are always people running other dungeons, be it for levelling other classes, helping friends, helping some sprout, or even farming the glam/minion/whatever. I've seen ShB levelling dungeons so many times, both from levelling Trust and in levelling roulette even now, while I for example I've only done Pag'lathan and Heroe's Gauntlet a bunch of times.
And if anything the levelling dungeons are more future-proofed than expert ones, since 50/60/etc roulette is not worth the reward so most people don't run it and rare;y get to see old cap dungeons again.

I think a bigger problem is that when you get only 1 dungeon per patch rather than 2, the expert roulette is too limited. We should go back to old dungeon release schedule if anything, then. In SB I don't remember expert roulette being boring at all.

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Do you know what an expert dungeon is?

Ofc it will be 3 dungeons, because only those 3 are the level 90 ones (duh).

When .1 releases, the expert dungeons may change to another one, and the same will appply for .2/3/4/5 content.

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You have blown my mind.

ordinarily i'm not one to use anyone's length of time played against them but some of y'all have clearly only started playing either half-way through if not the very end of shadowbringers and it shows.

of course expert roulette is basically empty. they release more level 90 content as the patches go on. this isn't a new concept. shadowbringers only had 3 level 80 dungeons at the start, too. stormblood was also the same and while stormblood had like, two more endgame dungeons said two were just hard-mode versions of dungeons that already exist.

ARR and Heavensward have an obscene amount of dungeons on the other hand and that's mostly because a lot of them were 1.0 dungeons that were simply too fricking huge and split into 2-3 dungeons (see: aurum vale and dzemael darkhold)

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Originally Posted by Denji

ordinarily i'm not one to use anyone's length of time played against them but some of y'all have clearly only started playing either half-way through if not the very end of shadowbringers and it shows.

of course expert roulette is basically empty. they release more level 90 content as the patches go on. this isn't a new concept. shadowbringers only had 3 level 80 dungeons at the start, too. stormblood was also the same and while stormblood had like, two more endgame dungeons said two were just hard-mode versions of dungeons that already exist.

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Something having been unnecessarily constrained/wasteful for a long time doesn't make it any less... wasteful.

For players who have no desire to level everything (or just level more quickly), all but the means of efficiently acquiring post-leveling weekly-cap currency will fall out of use. There's a lot to be gained from allowing past content to scale up and add variety to our Expert Roulette tiers or otherwise adjusting that most efficient means of currency acquisition to allow for greater variety.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Something having been unnecessarily constrained/wasteful for a long time doesn't make it any less... wasteful.

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it's not constrained. the roulette system only provides bonuses. if players were penalized for queuing the traditional way then your argument would be more substantial.

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Originally Posted by Denji

it's not constrained. the roulette system only provides bonuses. if players were penalized for queuing the traditional way then your argument would be more substantial.

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That's... not what constrained means. It isn't necessarily a matter of being punished or not. (Though, losing a large chunk of reward efficiency if ever you get tired of running the same 2-3 dungeons is arguably a punishment.)

Expert's Roulette's constraint is that, despite eventually having always been the most efficient roulette for keeping up with the game --and often (therefore, in part) the only one worth doing for players with less time-- it will only ever at most 3 possible pieces of content. It is run far more often than the other roulettes yet only offers, at best, one possibility more than Main Scenario Roulette.

Again, the important thing is that one particular grind path offers far greater reward efficiency... yet far less choice than what would otherwise be, reward-efficiency willing, its competitors. Making it less constrained (i.e., not funneling so much of our activity into the same 2 dungeons again and again) would require adjusting that grind path itself rather, such as by offering weekly Challenge Log bonuses for various, weekly-rotated content pieces up to a shared completion cap, or that we broaden what goes into that path. And developing a means to scale content up would help tremendously with that.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's... not what constrained means. It isn't necessarily a matter of being punished or not. (Though, losing a large chunk of reward efficiency if ever you get tired of running the same 2-3 dungeons is arguably a punishment.)

Expert's Roulette's constraint is that, despite eventually having always been the most efficient roulette for keeping up with the game --and often (therefore, in part) the only one worth doing for players with less time-- it will only ever at most 3 possible pieces of content. It is run far more often than the other roulettes yet only offers, at best, one possibility more than Main Scenario Roulette.

Again, the important thing is that one particular grind path offers far greater reward efficiency... yet far less choice than what would otherwise be, reward-efficiency willing, its competitors. Making it less constrained (i.e., not funneling so much of our activity into the same 2 dungeons again and again) would require adjusting that grind path itself rather, such as by offering weekly Challenge Log bonuses for various, weekly-rotated content pieces up to a shared completion cap, or that we broaden what goes into that path. And developing a means to scale content up would help tremendously with that.

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while you are right about the definition, you still understand my post and are arguing semantics to support your argument. you also are repeating points that you edited in AFTER your initial post AFTER i had already replied and are treating me as if i had simply ignored it all.

that said while you are correct the ideal system you describe is simply mentor roulette.

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Originally Posted by Denji

the ideal system you describe is simply mentor roulette.

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That is beyond disingenuous.

For Mentor Roulette to provide the same benefits as an Expert Roulette with a larger pool of dungeons, it would have to (A) cover the same kind of content, (B) have roughly the same average efficiency (e.g. 90 weekly tomes in ~18 minutes' time), (C) an equally small of a standard deviation within that efficiency, and (D) be accessible to everyone.

Mentor Roulette (A) does not merely cover dungeons, (B) is not remotely as efficient, (C) has notoriously large deviation in completion time, and (D) is accessible to only a small portion of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That is beyond disingenuous.

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disingenuous like how someone might try to edit in an argument after their initial post and then proceed to try and hold someone to said argument which did not exist at the time they replied?

i don't know what i've done to invoke your ire but this isn't a fight and i see no reason why you feel the need to be so openly hostile; nor do i see a point in continuing this discussion since i had already replied above that i agreed with you.

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Originally Posted by Denji

disingenuous like how someone might try to edit in an argument after their initial post and then proceed to try and hold someone to said argument which did not exist at the time they replied?

i don't know what i've done to invoke your ire but this isn't a fight and i see no reason why you feel the need to be so openly hostile; nor do i see a point in continuing this discussion since i had already replied above that i agreed with you.

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There's no ire here. I'm merely pointing out where something is either quite mistaken or purposely conflatious. If you would claim that X is the same as Y, they should at the least be more similar than not. Mentor roulette does not provide all that is being asked for (it's about as far from it as can still be a roulette that may include a dungeon), and what is being asked for does not come merely from somehow being unfamiliar with Expert Roulette being only 2-3 dungeons at a time (no one is; familiarity is a non-factor here).

The portion following "again" did not merely reflect the 2-minute-later clarification in my single edit, but that of the points I and others had already made multiple times earlier in the thread.

The fact they didn't know what defines the expert roulette tells me this was a bait thred

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Originally Posted by hynaku

I never liked Expert Roulette never had good enough rewards and get no Exp from it. Might be why last time every ran it was back in 3.0.

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Its not supposed to have crazy good rewards....Its only meant to help you get your foot in the door for the ilvl requirement for EX trials and as a bonus for the new tomes. And why would you get exp from a level capped dungeon?

Do you all not understand how progression works? You start in expert for tomes and drops, move on to EX trials, then raids then savage. Only reason to continue with expert is for tomes if you're not doing other things like hun trains where you can cap in like an hour.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

For a while is a hell of a nice way of saying 9 months of the same 2 dungeons in the expert roulette. My suggestion is simple and it is to copy something Blizzard did in WoW. At end game throw everything in the current expansion into the expert queue. Scale up the useless gear we all desyth anyways and also the mobs.

There are dungeons that I did during Endwalker that I am 100% confident I will never see again or if I do it will be 2 to 3 years down the line. That seems like one hell of a waste of resources on the part of Square Enix.

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By your logic why bother making games at all then?

3 dungeons, 2 dungeons, 8 dungeons. Does it even matter when they all play exactly the same sans bosses and they all have undertuned pulls? Noticing the different scenery they have is only interesting the first time.