Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

What can we do about it?

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On 'creepy habits' such as all the recent ERP drama, it's simple: Keep reporting it whenever you see it, just as Yoshi-P has kindly asked us all to do, the ERPers can whine, but when they blatantly try to cheekily advertise their 18+ content in PF, they deserve to be reported for it and thrown into the Gaol for it.

As far as your point on 'enabling poor play and coddling players' goes: Nothing. Because you don't get to decide how others play the game no matter how much you want to, people often meme and semi-complain about the tired line 'you don't pay my sub', but the harsh reality is.. it's true, you cannot dictate how others play, at most you can kick them for being an obvious dead weight (if using DF) or just not accept them into the party in the first place (if using PF).

No, people are not going to get penalized by SE for playing poorly and they're not going to get penalized for not doing things the way others want them to do things. You can do nothing.

I'm tired of repeating this, but the game "enables" people. It's not designed to properly teach players why they're doing something wrong and how to fix it. The huge gap between MSQ dungeons/trials and most of the optional content is a symptom of that.
Even for offline games, most people don't go research/look up guides online. If the game doesn't teach them (not necessarily using a tutorial) through its design, they don't learn.

The other reason is people mistaking "wanting to play the way you prefer" with "trying to play your role decently". But thanks to the above problem it's your word against their misconception.
You know what really is rude? Wasting other players' time because you think not trying to learn your job is "playing the way you prefer" and that others should just leave you be.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I think what you're seeing is a symptom of a few things, both a bit SE's fault and nothing to do with SE.

1. Lack of actual long term, goal driven content. We've had the same rinse and repeat tome farm and DDR battles since 2.0. Now everyone just sits in town and glamours up. There's a lot of validity in the common joke about glamour being FFXIV's endgame. And its not healthy for an MMO. A lot of what you're seeing with the RP nonsense is just very bored people with nothing to do but look pretty.

2. There is little to no actual social ramifications on a community level for being well... an idiot. Instances, server chats and multi world is great for a lot of reasons, but the big downside is no one knows who you are in the giant sea of constantly different people. In other MMO's, if you acted the fool, people would quickly remember your name and soon you'll find yourself missing content because no one would team up with you. That truth helped regulate player behavior far more then GM's or devs ever could.

It's not that different then real life in some ways. When you give everyone everything and little drive to do anything else... added with the fun mix of not having to face repercussions for much... humanity tends to get pretty weird.

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Why in gods name do you people think everyone play this game the same way as you. You want to know the nice thing about FF14 compared to WoW? I can get a nice set of gear, see the content and not have to deal with hardcore raiders or pvp'rs.

Not everyone is playing FF14 to savage raid or do Ultimates. Why does it matter to you that people are doing Glamour in FF14 as their end game? Are they happy? I would take FF14's end game gearing system over ANY other MMO's end game gearing any day of the week.

If you want to know why these people are "idiots" then look in the mirror. FF14 actively discourages joining FC's and forming really guilds because of this horrible static system this MMO has from a period of time when it was dying. You would NEVER talk to a guildmate the way I see people talk in FF14 in Savage. You would be kicked for toxicity and held accountable by a guild leader.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I can think of a few reasons why people don't feel like following strict rules or conforming to OTHERS ideas of how they should enjoy this video game.

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But it's not a solo game, it's a team based activity. Nor are the rules strict. There are exceptions where players can be toxic and expect too much but for most people it's generally basic things like "get your job stone", "use some aoe in dungeons", "don't use gear 50ilv too low", "don't stand around and do absolutely nothing for 70% of a dungeon as healer", "use some cd's as a tank", "be open to friendly advice". You know, work with your team.

You don't pay their sub, so if you aren't going to contribute to the group because it's more fun for you, they have no obligation to carry you when it's not fun at all for them.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Why in gods name do you people think everyone play this game the same way as you. You want to know the nice thing about FF14 compared to WoW? I can get a nice set of gear, see the content and not have to deal with hardcore raiders or pvp'rs.

Not everyone is playing FF14 to savage raid or do Ultimates. Why does it matter to you that people are doing Glamour in FF14 as their end game? Are they happy? I would take FF14's end game gearing system over ANY other MMO's end game gearing any day of the week.

If you want to know why these people are "idiots" then look in the mirror. FF14 actively discourages joining FC's and forming really guilds because of this horrible static system this MMO has from a period of time when it was dying. You would NEVER talk to a guildmate the way I see people talk in FF14 in Savage. You would be kicked for toxicity and held accountable by a guild leader.

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I think you may have misunderstood that my 1 was connected to 2. If I wrote it that way I do meaningfully apologize. That was not the intention.

I don't think you're an "idiot" for enjoying glamming up and sitting in town. 2 was meant to be an isolated problem we have as a community because of everything I mentioned in 2, not 1. It was simply meant to be put... there isn't true social repercussions in the community for being an idiot due to its size, instances and cross servers. That's all. An idiot in my mind is someone who acts poorly to others. Thats it. Has nothing to do with how you spend your time in game.

Now the part I have a feeling you may not like is I do stand behind my number 1. People are clearly so bored in an MMO with such a massive world that they're now just hunkering down and creating RP/ERP taverns. I blame that completely on there being little else to find interest in content wise after a few years on this game. I do think though that you're confusing me with some elite player who thinks savage is the only content worthy of dev attention. If you look at my game achievements you'll quickly find out I'm not that person lol. I just think there isn't much in terms of long goal progression of almost any kind in the game (traveling, leveling, gearing up, goals) and thats continuing to lead to crazier and crazier things were seeing in the forums now.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm pretty sure I shared this particular story before in the 'Tales from Duty Finder' thread, anyway for this: berating me for not greeting the party in chat, refusing to heal me (as tank) unless I do so - at the expense of a wipe. Aside from that, griefing in a more general sense would be things like: intentionally blinding party members with RDM LB3 during mechanics, Rescuing players to their deaths, provoking a boss who then cleaves the whole party, etc. All commonplace in this game.

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I know you did not ask, but I think commonplace really depends on the content you normally run. As someone who does many of those things. I do not see it as common place unless you are often running not relevant content. Cause personally that is roughly the only times I see intentional actions that may lead to wipes being done from experience.

Granted personally other factors have to be met like if I have at least one friend in the group and it is older content I am going to do my level best to kill said friend even if it may lead to a wipe. Though I do not think the actions of people in older content should be used as the metric to judge a community by if that makes sense. Cause as you mentioned causal toxicity is a thing but I do think it is only a thing cause the bar is so low that often times people can mess around and still clear the content sure a wipe may happen but in the grand scheme those are just more bleeps out of many where they go off without a hitch.

Though if these actions take place in relevant content or progression content for majority then that is uncool but for the most part if it is a learning partt even for older stuff I rarely see people screwing people over like that.

By relevant content I mean based off the group. Like if is new for majority of people in the group.

Se

SE does not give people a reason to care about normal or easier content which is why we have this issue where people think such things are common place in the game.

Why should the fun of others come at my expense? What happens when there is no one left to carry? What if nobody does their job quest? This is what you people defend.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

Now the part I have a feeling you may not like is I do stand behind my number 1. People are clearly so bored in an MMO with such a massive world that they're now just hunkering down and creating RP/ERP taverns. I blame that completely on there being little else to find interest in content wise after a few years on this game.

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I blame the ERP taverns on some people who saw some Kotaku articles about someone who has a brothel and makes lots of gil with that and then were like "oh snap! I can do that too" even though it has nothing really to do with RP nor any content drought. It's about people thinking they can make a lot of gil by selling cyber sex.

Edit: On topic - if anyone is enabled it's because as someone said before - the game isn't always great about teaching some things in the game itself. Also, some people just have really bad days where nothing goes right. I know I have days like that. While I always do the best I can (I really try not to be a burden on my teammates in an encounter) there are days my coordination is just completely off.

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Originally Posted by Arillyn

I blame the ERP taverns on some people wo saw some Kotaku articles about someone who has a brothel and makes lots of gil with that and then were like "oh snap! I can do that too" even though it has nothing really to do with RP nor any content drought. It's about people thinking they can make a lot of gil by selling cyber sex.

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That's definitely part of it. Kind of mentioned the same thing in another thread about the topic. We're not even talking about RP for the most part anymore. It's just a way to make "quick cash". At the same time though, least most servers I've been on, gil really isn't all that important or difficult to come by. I do think on some level people are enjoying their pretend hostess/barkeep work or w.e. To which I'd argue if we had more to do in game that wasn't over in a week of doing it, people would be a lot more occupied with other things then playing essentially IMVU with better graphics.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

That's definitely part of it. Kind of mentioned the same thing in another thread about the topic. We're not even talking about RP for the most part anymore. It's just a way to make "quick cash". At the same time though, least most servers I've been on, gil really isn't all that important or difficult to come by. I do think on some level people are enjoying their pretend hostess/barkeep work or w.e. To which I'd argue if we had more to do in game that wasn't over in a week of doing it, people would be a lot more occupied with other things then playing essentially IMVU with better graphics.

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Could be. And while gil isn't hard to get - I can't tell you how many people I know who have no idea how to make it and think having $500k gil is a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Why should the fun of others come at my expense? What happens when there is no one left to carry? What if nobody does their job quest? This is what you people defend.

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Considering the points and nuance raised...I actually think this probably tells us all we need to know about that NN interaction.

Yes, I would say it's better for them to do their job quests.

The point is you're gonna get people of all experiences and walks of life, that's a given. Ultimately, we have to be able to live together, because it's not like the devs are going to gatekeep. And for most of the time people do live together just fine and it's not a case of carrying the world all the time either. And probably why people are not seeing your objections as big of a deal as you are, yes, there are bad things within the FFXIV community, but maybe not as big that people feeling it's as dramatic as a "culture of enabling".

We can help people get better, that if anything is better for the community as a whole and people DO help each other get better, folks can good with newbies, to the inexperienced, to the people not getting it and help them on their way and if anything is why NN exists. I often try to offer people help and advice and in my 8 years in this game I've not had an experience like the one you've witnessed in NN. Where I have seen it is when somebody was an a-hole about it and the dogpiling is because that person was an a-hole about it or just rude or talked down to the player - and that's gone both ways too, if the person being given the advice is just an a-hole about it, I've seen people dogpile on them - like "you don't pay my sub" guy I mentioned in a previous post, we ended up kicking him.

Given this is a point raised that you're dismissing it in a sweeping "This is what you people defend" then it tells me that maybe it's an accurate point.

Sure, there's a handful of bad responses I get from individuals, oh well, there's some people in the world who can't take it. Move onto the next one. It's not common enough for me to be like "community is bad".

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Originally Posted by Arillyn

Could be. And while gil isn't hard to get - I can't tell you how many people I know who have no idea how to make it and think having $500k gil is a big deal.

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I completely believe you, and granted I've been playing since 1.0 alpha but... that's just so bizarre to me. I do literally nothing to make gil in this game, spend it like an idiot, have a wife of whom is convinced I have endless pockets, and still sitting on millions. Hate. HATE tome farming duties with a passion and will never pass mentor because of it, but that gives so much money over time everything else doesn't seem worth doing for gil lol. That and I like my treasure hunts, even if I never need the items. Just the gil from those suckers for existing in a party. Whew.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Why should the fun of others come at my expense? What happens when there is no one left to carry? What if nobody does their job quest? This is what you people defend.

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It is not so much at your expense in the general sense but it is the community that is fostered by having easier normal content. Reality is in the eyes of many other players strangers are no better the NPC's so it is easier to think of them as irrelevant.

Not saying this is a good thing but when a game does not throw challenges that force a group to form a bound it is easier to screw over others. Cause they have no real value.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

I completely believe you, and granted I've been playing since 1.0 alpha but... that's just so bizarre to me. I do literally nothing to make gil in this game, spend it like an idiot, have a wife of whom is convinced I have endless pockets, and still sitting on millions. Hate. HATE tome farming duties with a passion and will never pass mentor because of it, but that gives so much money over time everything else doesn't seem worth doing for gil lol. That and I like my treasure hunts, even if I never need the items. Just the gil from those suckers for existing in a party. Whew.

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Heh it's bizarre to me as well. I've been playing since 1.0 and remember when making gil could be quite the challenge at different times in this game's history. Now it's so easy I just don't understand when people complain they can't make gil, even after I've given them the many tips of all the different ways you can in the game that don't even have anything to do with gathering or crafting. The game throws gil at you now!

Yeah yeah, I get it. You two (you know who I mean) both have severe grudges against NN and would like it 'dealt with' despite one of you professing -and proudly so- to have never checked/used the system in years.

Look, every server's NN is different, and even a single NN's server differs in general attitude depending on the time of day.

Funnily enough though, these complaints reminds me of someone who caused drama in our NN earlier; a sprout was asking for help on PLD melds, and several mentors including one who is in BIS, a paladin main, and good at their job, offered their help.

One Mentor then randomly went "best advice is to ignore everyone here and go to the balance" --- and then proceeded to continously mock/dismiss/provoke/gaslight people in NN like saying "look at how the hivemind whines at me telling you to ignore it!" and "you are all snowflakes" and "gcbtw". They also kept framing their actions as "helping" the sprout, and tried to make everyone else seem bad for not liking their provocations.

The advice given by every mentor who had pitched in was correct, and basically the same. It was actually in line with what information is in the balance, not in opposition to it.

After being asked to stop/descalate several times and responding with further escalation, they got kicked.

They had a last hurrah: they immediately logged on to an alt and tried to smear / personally insult some of the mentors in the NN.

I have a strong feeling that those people who go "NN BAD!" all the time act like this guy in one way or another. Maybe at one point they tried giving advice, and either kept wording it poorly or it was incorrect and they refused to be corrected, and began cultivating vendettas.

But on the idea of "enabling", that culture is very much there yes. But what is being enabled differs from community to community. Our NN is not wont to enable those things you just said for example -- 'always do you class/job quests' is said often, as is 'always be geared'.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Enabling poor play and coddling players is probably the most visible.

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Most people play the game casually. They login once every 2 years or so to do the story and then unsubscribe. They really are not likely to get to the point of this "good play" unless they play more often. Most people who play an MMO are just having a bit of fun and not as serious as you about playing well.

If they enter an extreme or savage party, absolutely, they should be playing well and preparing properly. If they aren't doing that, who cares?

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Such as for example a mentor got dogpiled on in Siren's NN for trying to correct a player whom had not done their job quest, because they "didn't feel like doing them".

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It's right for them to politely point out that doing them is important, but being polite is important. If they weren't polite then I would understand the backlash and them being kicked.

If the individual chooses not to listen and does not become their job and that becomes a problem later on, they will probably be kicked from a dungeon anyway, for example for not having basic healing abilities that they need to overcome the content on a conjurer.

Most of the time, you would actually be fine in a dungeon without your soul crystal if you have decent gear and know how the class works. I tanked as a class in Heavensward a bit for fun and it was fine.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

Now the part I have a feeling you may not like is I do stand behind my number 1. People are clearly so bored in an MMO with such a massive world that they're now just hunkering down and creating RP/ERP taverns. I blame that completely on there being little else to find interest in content wise after a few years on this game. I do think though that you're confusing me with some elite player who thinks savage is the only content worthy of dev attention. If you look at my game achievements you'll quickly find out I'm not that person lol. I just think there isn't much in terms of long goal progression of almost any kind in the game (traveling, leveling, gearing up, goals) and thats continuing to lead to crazier and crazier things were seeing in the forums now.

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This in part at least is a result of the very fact they do dumb things down and enable terrible play or lazy attitudes or whatever else..

The unsync system is a prime example here. What it does is turn a huge amount of the games content that could keep those really bored players occupied for a decent amount of time. Into things that can be blasted through in a couple of minutes. Thus leaving players with nothing to do... its almost paradoxical how this game has so much content but at the same time has none at all.

The other issue is that literally everything is temporary and very short lived. And essentially useless. Even at the top tier or highest level.. here's sone i500 gear for clearing Savage good job!!!

Next patch lands with a new raid tier and that 500 gear you got is already trashed and replaced by 510 crafted.... its one reason many players don't bother raiding because "whats the point?"

I was into it in ARR coil was fun and the story was great. But every expansion since has been less and less motivation to bother.. don't even need to for the story anymore either. Which kinda detracts from the stories...

It's kinda jarring when a story tries to portray impending doom of some form and you basically steam roll through it without even knowing what your doing... completely destroys the atmosphere the story tries to create. One reason I enjoyed coil was because you felt it in the encounters...

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Originally Posted by Keramory

Now the part I have a feeling you may not like is I do stand behind my number 1. People are clearly so bored in an MMO with such a massive world that they're now just hunkering down and creating RP/ERP taverns.

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I think you are forgetting what is going on outside. If you live in America everything was effectively locked down for over a year. If you live in India or other places death is all around you. People are doing these activities to escape what has categorically been the worst year most of us have ever been through.

If that is what they enjoy then more power to them. From what I have learned with FF14 is that when you do not gate the gear behind some RNG garbage then people will create other forms of end game that involve interacting with other people. This is how MMO's used to be before developers realized they could milk you for game time if they put gear and skill power behind time gated RNG garbage.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Next patch lands with a new raid tier and that 500 gear you got is already trashed and replaced by 510 crafted.... its one reason many players don't bother raiding because "whats the point?"

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This statement makes no sense when 530 gear exist and is better that that 510 gear. People do not raid nearly as heavily in FF14 for the original reason I listed that FC's do not serve the same purpose of organizing people into coordinated groups like guilds do in multiple other MMO's.

You can get up to 520 at your sweet slow pace and avoid dealing with the Savages/Ultimates that takes the idea of community in this MMO and throws it in the nearest dumpster. In that place it becomes about parses and literal god like perfect rotations for 15+ min fights with heavy reliance of measuring a players worth by their ACT parse vs what they contribute to a group.

Even one of the streamers who makes a lot of the guides talks down to a lot of people in this community and suggest ideas about making it so you cannot even do boss damage unless you are doing perfect rotations. She then gets confused why her stream is not growing passed a small niche of people.

If I wanted that toxic community I would install WeakAuras, RaiderIO and multiple other Adds on and go back to WoW but I stay here because a majority of this community rejects the ideology of elitism that is literally killing other MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

I think you are forgetting what is going on outside. If you live in America everything was effectively locked down for over a year. If you live in India or other places death is all around you. People are doing these activities to escape what has categorically been the worst year most of us have ever been through.

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Well I can promise you I didn't forget about Covid lol. There's definitely an argument that more people are joining MMOs and spending more time in them because of Covid... but what they're doing in those games is still dependent on the content within it. I don't think Covid alone is an answer to people creating ERP taverns suddenly unless someone is under the impression a bunch of hip clubsters who were spending every Sat getting busy and now relying on au'ra chats to feed their frustrations.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

But it's not a solo game, it's a team based activity. Nor are the rules strict.

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They aren't strict but the OP likely wishes they were so as not to "enable" people.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

There are exceptions where players can be toxic and expect too much but for most people it's generally basic things like "get your job stone", "use some aoe in dungeons", "don't use gear 50ilv too low", "don't stand around and do absolutely nothing for 70% of a dungeon as healer", "use some cd's as a tank", "be open to friendly advice". You know, work with your team.

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Polite suggestions are fine. And where it should stop as far as interactions. If someone is doing everything you say then sure, drop them, stop talking to them, DON'T play with them anymore. However as someone who plays daily and does roulettes it's not the plague the OP makes it out to be. I also have my suspicions that "advising" done wasn't exactly tactful.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You don't pay their sub, so if you aren't going to contribute to the group because it's more fun for you, they have no obligation to carry you when it's not fun at all for them.

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And at the point you've got someone in your party who has no job stone, never uses AOE, has crappy gear AND stands around doing nothing, go ahead and kick them if you don't feel like doing charity work. It cuts both ways. Nobody has an obligation to be up to your standards but you also don't have to carry them or even talk to them.

The best solution, at least to the coddling problem, is to tier DF. So those that want to actually play the game and those that want to not don't have to interact.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

The best solution, at least to the coddling problem, is to tier DF. So those that want to actually play the game and those that want to not don't have to interact.

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Yes.. lets take a system meant to get instances queued in the shortest amount of time AND reward people for helping out non-veterans and segregate it to help the veterans get their rewards without actually helping anyone thereby INCREASING the queue time for the people it was made for in the first place.

Starting to think OP just can't handle a multiplayer environment.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Starting to think OP just can't handle a multiplayer environment.

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No, it's just for some reason 14's players on average (At least in NA) are a special kind of not great. I blame the community for that.

I mean, I was on board for NN criticism, but an "expert" 'expert' DF? Yeah, sure, if you don't want to get any queues ever. I think I'm good with the people we get, it's not THAT MUCH of a problem in comparison to what the new wait times - as in never get a queue - would be. For that matter, if a person really wanted to play with "good" players, I'd suggest forming a party, with friends or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

No, it's just for some reason 14's players on average (At least in NA) are a special kind of not great. I blame the community for that.

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Well I haven't played on NA so I can't comment about that, what I can say is though in DF I rarely come across a player whose performance makes me legitimately annoyed. I find most players are more than adequate for normal mode. Sure not everyone is great, but you don't have to be for normal mode. As long as someone doesn't make me work super hard I'm happy.

99% of the time when I leave a group it's because someone is rude, not because someone is very bad at the game. And well I rarely leave groups anyway. It's literally been several months since I last did.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

The best solution, at least to the coddling problem, is to tier DF. So those that want to actually play the game and those that want to not don't have to interact.

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I think a hard mode option for Duty Finder is what a lot of us want, but the reason it's a problem is because it could have a negative impact on queue times which are already not good sometimes.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I mean, I was on board for NN criticism, but an "expert" 'expert' DF? Yeah, sure, if you don't want to get any queues ever. I think I'm good with the people we get, it's not THAT MUCH of a problem in comparison to what the new wait times - as in never get a queue - would be. For that matter, if a person really wanted to play with "good" players, I'd suggest forming a party, with friends or otherwise.

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Not something like "expert" vs "casual". More so, some internal algorithm that sorts based on if you press you buttons in the mostly correct order or not. Also maybe looks and sees if you use aoe in the appropriate situation.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Not something like "expert" vs "casual". More so, some internal algorithm that sorts based on if you press you buttons in the mostly correct order or not. Also maybe looks and sees if you use aoe in the appropriate situation.

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They are not able to make the game have a learning curve and they are going to do that lmao

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Why should the fun of others come at my expense? What happens when there is no one left to carry? What if nobody does their job quest? This is what you people defend.

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If people are missing skills because they haven't done their job quests, then feel free to let them know. Try to do it politely/encouragingly if you want them to follow your advice.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Not something like "expert" vs "casual". More so, some internal algorithm that sorts based on if you press you buttons in the mostly correct order or not. Also maybe looks and sees if you use aoe in the appropriate situation.

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If they actually have such code, I have reason to believe it would be in SE's best interests to do the opposite of your proposition. That is, 'bad' players would be grouped with good players and vice versa. What you're suggesting is basically going to ruin DF by putting 'bad' players in situations where they literally can't clear instances and probably ragequit while the 'good' players keep riding the tailwind of their 'skilled player' privilege.

If you want to play with 'good' players, enter as a premade. When entering duty finder, always expect to carry your party first and foremost to avoid disappointment.

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Originally Posted by linayar

If people are missing skills because they haven't done their job quests, then feel free to let them know. Try to do it politely/encouragingly if you want them to follow your advice.

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Or rather maybe people should be more attentive to the tutorials and the messages of the game before entering a dungeon? In ARR and Heavensward it was normal to see people without their advanced classes or without all the skills because the game barely told you about them but currently there is no excuse other than being a lazy person who does not care about their time or that of the rest.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

Or rather maybe people should be more attentive to the tutorials and the messages of the game before entering a dungeon?

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Your ideal expectation of what others should do before entering a dungeon won't help you once you're already inside the dungeon.

The OP asked what can be done about it, and hoping that others would do what you want them to do without you (and other people) having to encourage them to do so is unrealistic.

Yeah... no. The "culture of enabling" has also enabled the existance of this topic, which is just another tinly-veiled "skilled vs non-skilled" vitrol topic leading to the same old smearfest by the loud and vocal members of both groups in the end.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Not something like "expert" vs "casual". More so, some internal algorithm that sorts based on if you press you buttons in the mostly correct order or not. Also maybe looks and sees if you use aoe in the appropriate situation.

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I don't see that ever working, both technically or in-practice. Matchmaking barely works in PvP based games - and they have to have a population to support it. Like I said, and others said, if it's really that bad just try and do content with preformed parties, otherwise you get what you get. Leave or kick.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

This statement makes no sense when 530 gear exist and is better that that 510 gear. People do not raid nearly as heavily in FF14 for the original reason I listed that FC's do not serve the same purpose of organizing people into coordinated groups like guilds do in multiple other MMO's.

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530 does exist but the point I made was that when players have worked through the second tier raid fights in 5.2 and 5.3. To earn all that shiny i500 gear. Then as soon as the third tier dropped with 5.4. All that 500 gear was replaced with 510 crafted gear before they've even entered the new raid tier. Thus rendering that 500 gear already obsolete..

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Not something like "expert" vs "casual". More so, some internal algorithm that sorts based on if you press you buttons in the mostly correct order or not. Also maybe looks and sees if you use aoe in the appropriate situation.

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So you want bad players to continue to not be taught or helped on what to do just so you can clear something 1 minute faster with "good" players? You wouldn't happen to be the mentor that got kicked out of the NN for "helping" someone or whatever, are you? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Doozer

So you want bad players to continue to not be taught or helped on what to do just so you can clear something 1 minute faster with "good" players?

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The problem is, the current system relies on the good players carrying the bad players, but teaching or helping them can actually net you a ban. You aren't allowed performance tools to pinpoint an issue in their rotation and if they aggressively refuse a friendly tip, that's the end of the matter and you have to keep quiet. Kicking a bad player is perfectly within rules too as long as you aren't openly rude. It's not an environment that encourages friendly behavior and teamwork, but more one that attempts to hide any toxicity under the carpet and keep it silent while it still exists and grows.

This results in a lot of bad players who get all the way to 80 wiping lots of groups and committing bad habits to muscle memory, enter EX and Savage where you can't carry and either fail or are kicked endlessly and have no idea why, leading to frustration. There are a lot of flaws with the current system too.

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

If they actually have such code, I have reason to believe it would be in SE's best interests to do the opposite of your proposition. That is, 'bad' players would be grouped with good players and vice versa. What you're suggesting is basically going to ruin DF by putting 'bad' players in situations where they literally can't clear instances and probably ragequit while the 'good' players keep riding the tailwind of their 'skilled player' privilege.

If you want to play with 'good' players, enter as a premade. When entering duty finder, always expect to carry your party first and foremost to avoid disappointment.

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That is the issue. That gameplay design is not sustainable, sometimes the strong cannot carry the weak nor should they. It's a corner SE has backed themselves into by relying on good players to always pick up the slack for the not good players. It can only go on for so long.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

That is the issue. That gameplay design is not sustainable, sometimes the strong cannot carry the weak nor should they. It's a corner SE has backed themselves into by relying on good players to always pick up the slack for the not good players. It can only go on for so long.

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Solution: do content with friends that are at your skill level if you don't want to carry randoms.

That's all I got for you and your viewpoints bud. I don't agree with you in the slightest.