Removal of Piety and Tenacity for Endwalker

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Originally Posted by Rongway

This is only problematic because tanks are still allowed to meld dhit. If tanks were not allowed to meld dhit, then Tenacity would be evaluated based on its own merit rather than on its deficiency compared to dhit, and there would be no problem.

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Whether you like it or not... You take away direct hit from tanks and they'll meld critical, take that away and they'll end up melding determination or skill speed.
This is an aggressive circle of nerfs that would piss off a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

Whether you like it or not... You take away direct hit from tanks and they'll meld critical, take that away and they'll end up melding determination.
This is an aggressive circle of nerfs that would piss off a lot of players.

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We are not talking about taking away crit or determination. We're talking about taking away the one stat clearly intended to be used by DDs. Tanks are only ignoring the one stat intended for them because they are allowed to meld the DD-only stat and benefit from it.

Tanks and DDs are allowed to meld the healer-only stat, Piety, but get no benefit from it. DDs and healers are allowed to meld the tank-only stat, tenacity, but get no benefit from it. The only problems that would arise from making it so that tanks and healers do not benefit from melding the DD-only stat would be contrived.

If tenacity is still not worth melding after dhit becomes a DD-only stat, then fix tenacity.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

We are not talking about taking away crit or determination. We're talking about taking away the one stat clearly intended to be used by DDs. Tanks are only ignoring the one stat intended for them because they are allowed to meld the DD-only stat and benefit from it.

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So you're suggesting to disallow tanks to meld Direct Hit, Critical, Detemination, or Skill Speed?
Taking away Direct Hit does nothing to solve the issue, similar to how taking away Strength did nothing to solve the issue.
Would you prefer every tank to meld only Tenacity? That would essentially take away any type of materia customization for tanks.
With your suggestion, we'd cause a lot of players to quit.

Like I said, You take away Direct Hit and they'll meld the next best damage dealing stat.

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

So you're suggesting to disallow tanks to meld Direct Hit, Critical, Detemination, or Skill Speed?
Taking away Direct Hit does nothing to solve the issue, similar to how taking away Strength did nothing to solve the issue.
Would you prefer every tank to meld only Tenacity? That would essentially take away any type of materia customization for tanks.
With your suggestion, we'd cause a lot of players to quit.

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You are purposely jumping to the most absurd possible interpretation. Stop.

One more time.

We. Are. Talking. About. Tenacity vs direct hit.

If your only criticism of my suggestion is that it's a slippery slope, you are purposely trying to be antagonistic.

I never argued for any of the following:

• Remove crit from tanks.
• Remove det from tanks.
• Remove skill speed from tanks.
• Tanks should only meld tenacity

I said:

• If tanks were not allowed to meld dhit, then Tenacity would be evaluated based on its own merit rather than on its deficiency compared to dhit,
• or it would be evaluated based on its deficiency compared to determination,
• and they would choose whichever increased their DPS more
• Tanks are only ignoring the one stat intended for them because they are allowed to meld the DD-only stat and benefit from it.
• If tenacity is still not worth melding after dhit becomes a DD-only stat, then fix tenacity.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

We. Are. Talking. About. Tenacity vs direct hit.

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What you're suggesting does not fix anything except nerf tanks. It does not help in any way. All it does is reduce the value of Direct Hit.
Even Healers meld Direct Hit, so it would still be an issue if you focused on nerfing tanks.

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

Whether you like it or not... You take away direct hit from tanks and they'll meld critical, take that away and they'll end up melding determination or skill speed.
This is an aggressive circle of nerfs that would piss off a lot of players.

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The gap between Det and Ten is actually incredibly small. The difference between +1.5k Det vs +1.5k Tenacity is ~1.25% damage in exchange for 4.5% mitigation. This is a small enough gap that people might end up choosing to meld Tenacity if diminishing returns shrinks the gap enough.

Direct Hit is problematic because it is 1440 points of secondary stats (an additional 5.975% increase in damage) not suffering from diminishing returns due to starting from 380. In comparison, +1440 Det from 340 would be an 5.6% increase in damage and +1440 Tenacity is a 4.3% increase in damage. Crit is the only thing that has a comparative damage increase (6%) and that requires starting at 2030 Crit due to the fact that Critical Hit factors twice (Crit rate and Crit multiplier) into the damage formula.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

You are purposely jumping to the most absurd possible interpretation. Stop.

One more time.

We. Are. Talking. About. Tenacity vs direct hit.[/list]

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I'm sure the issue is that no matter what tanks and healers will meld the next best stat for DPS regardless. Unless SE makes Tenacity and Piety give damage increases, it will always be Direct Hit. If you take DH out the picture, say only for DPS jobs then Determination will be the next preferred stat.

In the end, SE either needs to change what Ten/Pie does in general to make them matter. As it stands, they're pretty useless after prog. The game revolves around killing as fast as possible. That is the best damage mitigation. The faster something is dead, the less mitatigion/healing is needed. Plenty of other video games have this issue too. Doing the most damage will always be endgame stat. It doesn't matter if you can take more hits or GCD heal more because a good tank will properly map their CDs and good healers will have something to cover for that damage.

IMO, they should just change/remove Tenacity/Piety and embrace DH. Also I'll repeat something I said early, let heals have direct hit as well. It's so weird that heals go either crit or none.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The gap between Det and Ten is actually incredibly small. The difference between +1.5k Det vs +1.5k Tenacity is ~1.25% damage in exchange for 4.5% mitigation. This is a small enough gap that people might end up choosing to meld Tenacity if diminishing returns shrinks the gap enough.

Direct Hit is problematic because it is 1440 points of secondary stats (an additional 5.975% increase in damage) not suffering from diminishing returns due to starting from 380. In comparison, +1440 Det from 340 would be an 5.6% increase in damage and +1440 Tenacity is a 4.3% increase in damage. Crit is the only thing that has a comparative damage increase (6%) and that requires starting at 2030 Crit due to the fact that Critical Hit factors twice (Crit rate and Crit multiplier) into the damage formula.

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So even at the extremes... Tenacity is a broken stat. To think that Determination would be a valuable meld to min/max is quite a far ways, but the point remains.

In addition to the stat crunch, if they are lowering overall stats, they would have to lower the soft cap for diminishing returns.
Otherwise the benefit to melding a damage dealing stat would only improve.

There are just too many stats as it is.

They just need four:

Power (strength/dexterity/intelligence/mind/determination/attack power/attack magic potency/healing magic potency)

Defense (vitality/defense/magic defense/tenacity/piety)

Speed (skillspeed/spellspeed)

Hit Rate (critical hit/direct hit rate)

They can also remove materia melding, but if they want to keep it, only make speed and hit rate be meldable while power and defense are static on each gear.

The real issue is that damage is all that matters. Unless the combat system is fundamentally overhauled to make other factors relevant all materia decisions will boil down to what maximizes dps.

If MP efficiency mattered at all then piety would be worth something. Personally I'd like to see MP be a healer's limiting resource like in older MMOs. Offensive spells would need to be free to avoid the issue of healers idling to conserve MP. Low MP costs on oGCDs, higher MP costs on GCDs, and some interaction between healing abilities to increase HP per MP efficiency would go a long way to making MP management feel important.

If miniscule damage reduction mattered at all then tenacity would be worth something. Almost 3700 tenacity is needed to get -10% damage reduction. Even if both tanks' tenacity was combined and applied to the entire party it wouldn't contribute anything that couldn't be done with a single mitigation CD. This game's tendency towards large, infrequent damage means that mitigation CDs are always available and that small, passive mitigation has little value. Coupled with unlimited and cheap healing from healers tenacity simply doesn't give anything apart from a subpar damage increase. Heavily stacking tenacity won't save a healer a GCD.

I guess I am just old fashioned, but my primary duty as a healer are heals, crit is nice enough but I prefer solid heals over spikey ones that crit supplies

I do damage if people arent in need of healing.

if I want to dps, I have a lot of other classes for that

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I guess I am just old fashioned, but my primary duty as a healer are heals, crit is nice enough but I prefer solid heals over spikey ones that crit supplies

I do damage if people arent in need of healing.

if I want to dps, I have a lot of other classes for that

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In FFXIV people are rarely in need of healing. And if they do they are either failing/learning, which means that in a few pulls you'll be left with nothing but dps as healing won't be required. And in savage if you don't pull your weight with your dps you're slowing your group, especially with all the current oGCDs. Any content below that is so easy that it's kinda irrelevant (and oh so boring for a healer).

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

Using MP regen the second it cools down will lead to moments where you're at full MP with the MP regen buff still up.
Resulting in a wasted input and you'll likely unable to use the MP regen when you do need it.

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It should never happen if you're following the ABC.

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Originally Posted by Teno

In FFXIV people are rarely in need of healing. And if they do they are either failing/learning, which means that in a few pulls you'll be left with nothing but dps as healing won't be required. And in savage if you don't pull your weight with your dps you're slowing your group, especially with all the current oGCDs. Any content below that is so easy that it's kinda irrelevant (and oh so boring for a healer).

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since I am not very "leet" I dont do a lot of savages to be honest. and generally, it seems that most of the people I randomly get grouped with are far below the level of play that you and the OP operate at since they do tend to need healing. some runs I have even heard "I hope you know how to heal" so I am guessing that you have a static group of elite min/maxxers that you run with, in which case your attitude makes a lot of sense. for the average gamer though, reality is a bit different.

just so you are aware.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

since I am not very "leet" I dont do a lot of savages to be honest. and generally, it seems that most of the people I randomly get grouped with are far below the level of play that you and the OP operate at since they do tend to need healing. some runs I have even heard "I hope you know how to heal" so I am guessing that you have a static group of elite min/maxxers that you run with, in which case your attitude makes a lot of sense. for the average gamer though, reality is a bit different.

just so you are aware.

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Not exactly, people that want healers who 'know how to heal' means they know how the basic priority of their role should function.
I guess if you really want to think about it, the healer priority is:
Preventative Action -> Reduction Measures -> Active healing

The players who want a healer to know how to heal expects the healer to be able to focus on Reduction Measures rather than just active healing once they enter Stormblood. A common Reduction Measure is for healers to do some DPS rather than wait for damage to come out before healing.

People tell healers to DPS because it's more efficient as a healer to heal and DPS to help with MP upkeep - which translates to being a better healer since you can have more resources to maximize your healing potential in case things go wrong. This is especially true for pugs rather than statics because you can't trust your party members in pugs. The rationale goes as following:

1. You can spend 400 MP for Cure I and continue using Cure 1 until the enemy dies. Let's say this enemy takes around 25 seconds for your group to kill the enemy. That means you should have around 10 casts of Cure 1, which eats up 4000 MP over that duration.

2. Alternatively, you can spend 400 MP for Stone and alternate between Cure and Stone. Assuming the enemy dies in ~18 seconds as a result, you have spent a total of 7 casts of Stone / Cure 1, which eats up 2800 MP. In this manner, you save up 1200 MP. That 1200 MP saved can now be used for Cure II or more Medica IIs and such. Plus, factoring in the time saved, Base MP restores around 200 MP every 3 seconds in combat, so you also have a net gain of 400 MP from finishing the battle with that enemy early (which can be more depending on how much piety you have), resulting in a total of 1600 MP saved.

This would be considered a "Reduction measure" since you're reducing your MP expenditure and increasing the party's overall survivalibility by reducing the time at which the enemy can inflict damage to the party.

In a more broader scale (boss fights even for regular content at higher levels), the bosses will use unavoidable raidwide damage, tankbusters, and avoidable damage. Some bosses even have a soft enrage which will potentially overwhelm the party once too much time has passed (Nidhogg being a prime example with Akh Morn). If you include the number of mistakes people can make in mechanics, we would have to start spending more MP to heal through them once we go through our free healing tools if people continue to develop vulnerability stacks or end up dying, which prolongs the fight and drains the healer's MP faster. In this scenario, adding DPS will mean the boss dies faster / transition to the next phase faster, which translates into less raidwides, less tankbusters, less chances to accrue vulnerability stacks, less chances of needing to raise, and overall less incoming damage from the enemy -- which turns into less MP expensive spells spent on healing and more MP for situations where things spiral out of control. This problem is largely mitigated when people get better gear & know the fight because they have that ability to push out more DPS, take less damage, and have more potent heals, but for content when everyone is roughly at the same ilvl and new (Patch 5.5 Tower at Paradigm's Breach), this is basic healer fundamentals for succeeding or wiping a run.

Of course, healers can just meld more piety and call it a day since they have more MP, but it still doesn't prevent people from making mistakes and still risk a potential wipe. That's why a healer who adds DPS spells when they feel everyone's HP is a comfortable level will be reducing the potential for the emergency from happening in the first place and is said to be doing well. It's just that as people get better at healing, they won't panic healing as much when player's HP starts to drop, which lets them DPS more before healing. Ultimately this just falls in line with the primary preventative action - enemies can't do damage if they're dead. This is also why White Mages use Holy, because enemies can't do damage if they're stunned, which reduces potential casts from adds and incoming damage. Take this a step further and if the healer can spam holy, they start prioritizing the preventative measure.

Just like how a DPS improves by having a better rotation to maximize damage, healers improve by doing a balancing act between DPS and healing.

The "leet" optimization for min/maxers is figuring out how much less healing they can get away with to increase the speed at which something dies without endangering their party (which comes from knowledge and experience + trust that their party members can dodge mechanics), as well as having every party member be contributing to the mitigation effort. Most people don't expect the average player to know this though.

However, the idea of the preventative measure is also why people can dog farm Jade Stoa EX Unsynced without a healer - we just do enough DPS that we can melt the boss before facing enough mechanics that would have to be healed through if we trade a healer for more DPS. In this manner, we can 'prevent' a wipe from happening in the first place with sufficient DPS rather than bring a healer to 'reduce' the potential chance of wiping by healing through the mechanics.

Piety badly needs a rework. There is absolutely no reason it can't get the Tenacity treatment (+0.1% damage per 33 stat) at the very least. The biggest issue with Piety is that when you don't need every last bit of mana you have in a fight, up to all the Piety you have is gone to waste and did nothing. Sort of like you got a -1000 DH debuff because your group didn't play terribly. Because of this, by melding Piety you're taking a big hit in average output, for the occasional "just incase" situation. We'll still do it when we have to, but when you realize how it works it doesn't feel like a satisfying choice.

Tenacity isn't in the worst spot but it's not in a great one either. Compared to Det the damage difference is small, so despite popular belief, having Tenacity on your gear won't affect your damage that much (barely 1%). However, the mitigation won't affect you much either. Mathematically it almost never amounts to enough to save healer GCD's. It's a fairly bland, mediocre stat. They could probably leave the damage component as it is and safely bump the damage reduction up, so choosing between max dps and extra-tanky was a viable decision.

One factor I find rather telling is how people pull in expert dungeons. When I tank one, I tend to ask the healer if they are fine with me pulling the whole dungeon.
But if I heal one, I don't really get that type of question. If I ask a tank to pull the whole dungeon they tend to ignore me.
Again, both of these I do without piety or tenacity.
If my partner tank or healer can't keep up, it's okay to slow down a little bit.

Ask tanks to use tenacity and they are likely to ignore you unless it's a clear increase in damage

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Originally Posted by linayar

There are just too many stats as it is.

They just need four:

Power (strength/dexterity/intelligence/mind/determination/attack power/attack magic potency/healing magic potency)

Defense (vitality/defense/magic defense/tenacity/piety)

Speed (skillspeed/spellspeed)

Hit Rate (critical hit/direct hit rate)

They can also remove materia melding, but if they want to keep it, only make speed and hit rate be meldable while power and defense are static on each gear.

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To be honest the way the game is designed you only need 1 stat. I-Level.

The issue they have is they've dumbed down and simplified gear so much that they've killed any meaning of stats..

Back in the days of old for example stats had much more diverse uses. Str not only did your damage but also your plus block strength. Dex not only worked for accuracy but how quick or how often you successfully blocked with your shield.

Vit not only raised your hp and defence but also modified enhancing spells your protect was stronger your regen was more potent... they've dumbed down and got rid of all these things and now the only stat that actually matters is I-level..

Secondaries don't do a great deal anyway. You can have 10,000 crit and still have the same crit rate as someone with 5,000 crit rate.

You can be level 80 with 10,000 spell speed and still have the same cast time as someone whose level 60 with 1000 spell speed...

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

One factor I find rather telling is how people pull in expert dungeons. When I tank one, I tend to ask the healer if they are fine with me pulling the whole dungeon.
But if I heal one, I don't really get that type of question. If I ask a tank to pull the whole dungeon they tend to ignore me.
Again, both of these I do without piety or tenacity.
If my partner tank or healer can't keep up, it's okay to slow down a little bit.

Ask tanks to use tenacity and they are likely to ignore you unless it's a clear increase in damage

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How is this factor telling exactly? As long as the gear is of adequate iLV, the stats on them are irrelevant: what makes or breaks pulls is how knowledgeable the players are of their jobs.

I never meld tenacity unless 1 or 2 melds pushes over a 1k marker.

Then I like to put some piety on just so I can spam all I want without much of any worry.

Tenacity is a worthless stat, the only reason WAR have to meld some it's bcs how unlucky was this tier but this time was the only exception.

What they should do is make tanks stop getting a benefic from DH and buff tenacity so is not so useless compared to CRIT and DET, they should make encounters dealt way more damage to consider TEN damage reduction have some value, right now mitigating damage is a total joke as the same healers barely heal now.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Secondaries don't do a great deal anyway. You can have 10,000 crit and still have the same crit rate as someone with 5,000 crit rate.

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If you could somehow get Critical Hit as high it would actually be pretty significant. At 5000 Crit you would have a 32.1% crit rate with a 1.671 crit multiplier which would on average be a 1.215 damage multiplier. At 10000 Crit you would have a 61.5 crit rate with a 1.965 crit multiplier which would be on average a 1.593 damage multiplier on average.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Tenacity isn't in the worst spot but it's not in a great one either. Compared to Det the damage difference is small, so despite popular belief, having Tenacity on your gear won't affect your damage that much (barely 1%). However, the mitigation won't affect you much either. Mathematically it almost never amounts to enough to save healer GCD's. It's a fairly bland, mediocre stat. They could probably leave the damage component as it is and safely bump the damage reduction up, so choosing between max dps and extra-tanky was a viable decision.

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One of the biggest problems with Tenacity is it's counterintuitive to tanks. Yes it reduces damage taken by a small amount but it also "Affects the amount HP restored."

The problem with this?

It only affects the heals the TANK DOES TO THEMSELVES, instead of increasing all healing done TO the tank.

Why this has never been resolved really does show how out of touch the developers are.

Determination affects healing done, Tenacity SHOULD affect healing received.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ing%20you%20do.

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

Believe this would not be favorable for a lot of raiding players.
Raiders tend to do what they can to squeeze in extra dps in relevant content.
There was a time when tanks use to meld Strength and they took that away from us, making DH the next best option.
Direct Hit in general helps Tanks maintain their enmity due to increased dps.
If two similar item level tanks are both generating enmity, the one with Direct Hit melded can and will steal the main aggression spot from a raid boss..

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1) That Strength meta resulted in a TON of extra stress for healers when subpar tanks tried to do it because it was the cool thing to do or tanks felt pressured to do it. A Strength tank was a lot squishier than a Vitality tank.

2) DH does help with emnity overall but emnity is largely a non issue anymore at relatively equal gear levels. Your example is only relevant when you have two tanks of the same job and the exact same gear other than melds. Even in that scenario, DH and DH-Crits are RNG so you don't know what the result would be. Also, the two tanks should never be in that situation. The off tank should hold off on tank stance for a few rotations and then turn it on and if there's not a tank swap should be Shirking emnity.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I have the solution. Make direct hit only meld able by dps.

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This is what I am afraid of happing. It would fix the issue but I would be sad to miss out on that extra bit of damage even if it is not needed. Hitting harder is always nice.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

One of the biggest problems with Tenacity is it's counterintuitive to tanks. Yes it reduces damage taken by a small amount but it also "Affects the amount HP restored."

The problem with this?

It only affects the heals the TANK DOES TO THEMSELVES, instead of increasing all healing done TO the tank.

Why this has never been resolved really does show how out of touch the developers are.

Determination affects healing done, Tenacity SHOULD affect healing received.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ing%20you%20do.



1) That Strength meta resulted in a TON of extra stress for healers when subpar tanks tried to do it because it was the cool thing to do or tanks felt pressured to do it. A Strength tank was a lot squishier than a Vitality tank.

2) DH does help with emnity overall but emnity is largely a non issue anymore at relatively equal gear levels. Your example is only relevant when you have two tanks of the same job and the exact same gear other than melds. Even in that scenario, DH and DH-Crits are RNG so you don't know what the result would be. Also, the two tanks should never be in that situation. The off tank should hold off on tank stance for a few rotations and then turn it on and if there's not a tank swap should be Shirking emnity.

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I was a newbie during the strength meta was it really that bad? Or was it roughly as bad as having a tank not use cooldowns? As a healer it does annoy me when tanks do not use cooldowns but I would not say it was stressful.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

since I am not very "leet" I dont do a lot of savages to be honest. and generally, it seems that most of the people I randomly get grouped with are far below the level of play that you and the OP operate at since they do tend to need healing. some runs I have even heard "I hope you know how to heal" so I am guessing that you have a static group of elite min/maxxers that you run with, in which case your attitude makes a lot of sense. for the average gamer though, reality is a bit different.

just so you are aware.

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No no no, this is a terribly way to look at it. In no way did that person say that DPS is what you have to do, but what else are you going to do when there's nothing to heal? Damage is very predictable and a lot of downtime. You should always be casting something and not standing there being well, useless. When there's nothing to heal which I'm sure you've seen plenty of, then you should be casting DPS spells.

And IMO, the whole traditional way of "I'm a healer, so I heal not a dps" is so problematic because even in DnD clerics also fight. Nowhere in the history of Final Fantasy or in games where healers exist is there a healer without a dps/non-healing button. Yes this also means support skills. Point being said, healers are not just healers and people need to get this mentality that being a healbot is the only aspect of healing out of their heads.

You should always try to be a decent person and help you party finish content faster but casting damage spells and not standing there spamming wasted heals/doing nothing.

I don't mean to be ugly about the subject. But you kinda of generalized and created an assumption that people wanting healers to contribute to the party in your downtime is some form of min max elitist behavior. In which is totally wrong, there's nothing wrong with people in your party wanting you to pull your weight.

DPS will always be a part of FFXIV's healer kits and if you disagree and don't like it, well play a DPS job like you said. Unless SE completely overhauls the entire combat system (not happening) to fit a strictly healing design, things will remain the same with the same downtime.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Can we have heals direct hit? I feel like that'd be a decent way to start.

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Never. Tanks (Warrior exception due to ability that gives it) and healers do not need direct hit. It should be locked to DPS only.

Thinking on it more, Determination should be removed and its effects put into Direct Hit (which would become DPS only stat), Tenacity, and Piety. This makes Tenacity and Piety useful, and DPS stack Direct Hit all the time anyway. This also allows the devs to put a little more oomph in damage in dungeons since tanks should be able to take more damage and healers will be able to heal more and have more MP regen.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Never. Tanks (Warrior exception due to ability that gives it) and healers do not need direct hit. It should be locked to DPS only.

Thinking on it more, Determination should be removed and its effects put into Direct Hit (which would become DPS only stat), Tenacity, and Piety. This makes Tenacity and Piety useful, and DPS stack Direct Hit all the time anyway. This also allows the devs to put a little more oomph in damage in dungeons since tanks should be able to take more damage and healers will be able to heal more and have more MP regen.

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Yeah, I'd agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

If you could somehow get Critical Hit as high it would actually be pretty significant. At 5000 Crit you would have a 32.1% crit rate with a 1.671 crit multiplier which would on average be a 1.215 damage multiplier. At 10000 Crit you would have a 61.5 crit rate with a 1.965 crit multiplier which would be on average a 1.593 damage multiplier on average.

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it never really changes that much though.. you can be level 80 withcritas high as it'll possibly go. but you'll still land just as many crits as you would against say a level 50 with just a few hundred crit... we tested this once. against ARR S-Ranks. where you'd expect a level 80 player with thousands of crit to crit almost constantly....

the numbers get bigger but the outcome stays largely the same. which is why many say they feel worthless.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

DH does help with emnity overall but emnity is largely a non issue anymore at relatively equal gear levels. Your example is only relevant when you have two tanks of the same job and the exact same gear other than melds. Even in that scenario, DH and DH-Crits are RNG so you don't know what the result would be. Also, the two tanks should never be in that situation. The off tank should hold off on tank stance for a few rotations and then turn it on and if there's not a tank swap should be Shirking emnity.

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Maybe in a perfect world where mistakes never happen and no one does 24 person raids.

Situations like that do happen quite often in 24 person raids, tanks constantly fighting each other for enmity is pretty common.
You can't even shirk an alliance member anyway, they have to be in the same party.

The new Nier raid for example, I've walked in with tank gear item level lower than the other tanks.
More often then not I end up taking top enmity due to the direct hit bonuses and avoidance of Tenacity.
I don't even claim to be a GOOD tank but somehow generate more enmity than people who play nothing but tank with higher item level.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

This Games simplicity about stats in PvE content has long ago reached a point, where it doesn't even matter what kind of materia we slot in. I mean, i am aware of simple math and that crit/determination is the way to go, but if you look beyond the mere numbers and actually pay close attention how Content is being cleared, you'll see that the damage department is way too high overall from any Job.

What i am telling here is, Content in general is being cleared way too quickly, and materia plays not the biggest role, but a significant part on this .

As for the piety stat, it does have one good thing about it, and that is when you plan on saving a almost completely wiped party all by yourself. It also comes in handy if you run Trials with only one Healer.

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Are you talking from a Savage point of view or just the normal content? The reality is that materia is 100% pointless in any normal content and that is by design. The normal content is supposed to be the lowest common denominator in terms of difficulty. I don't see anyone clearing savage without materia, food, and tinctures. Those three things are the gil sink of end game battle content. If Tenacity were to become useful, they'd have to make it so that tanks can't benefit from direct hit.

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

Maybe in a perfect world where mistakes never happen and no one does 24 person raids.

Situations like that do happen quite often in 24 person raids, tanks constantly fighting each other for enmity is pretty common.
You can't even shirk an alliance member anyway, they have to be in the same party.

The new Nier raid for example, I've walked in with tank gear item level lower than the other tanks.
More often then not I end up taking top enmity due to the direct hit bonuses and avoidance of Tenacity.
I don't even claim to be a GOOD tank but somehow generate more enmity than people who play nothing but tank with higher item level.

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I mean, that could have nothing at all to do with direct hit and everything to do with them being bad at their jobs. Which happens with every job.

Also, wouldn't that mean you are the bad tank, since you are making the boss spin by fighting over enmity?

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

Maybe in a perfect world where mistakes never happen and no one does 24 person raids.

Situations like that do happen quite often in 24 person raids, tanks constantly fighting each other for enmity is pretty common.
You can't even shirk an alliance member anyway, they have to be in the same party.

The new Nier raid for example, I've walked in with tank gear item level lower than the other tanks.
More often then not I end up taking top enmity due to the direct hit bonuses and avoidance of Tenacity.
I don't even claim to be a GOOD tank but somehow generate more enmity than people who play nothing but tank with higher item level.

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Fighting for emnity in 24man raids is probably the worst example you can ever use simply because alliance tanks are the biggest jack offs voking on cooldown.
You probably didn't take aggro from another tank simply because of DH and tenacity, the difference in damage isn't that large unless someone is missing materia or stacking tenacity.
You took aggro because you were dpsing with tank stance on while they were tanking.

Good for you Others still do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timmyftw

Maybe in a perfect world where mistakes never happen and no one does 24 person raids.

Situations like that do happen quite often in 24 person raids, tanks constantly fighting each other for enmity is pretty common.
You can't even shirk an alliance member anyway, they have to be in the same party.

The new Nier raid for example, I've walked in with tank gear item level lower than the other tanks.
More often then not I end up taking top enmity due to the direct hit bonuses and avoidance of Tenacity.
I don't even claim to be a GOOD tank but somehow generate more enmity than people who play nothing but tank with higher item level.

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This has nothing to do with materias, or even gear, and everything to with rotation.
If the other tank doesn't know their rotation, stealing aggro is a breeze.

It takes quite a bit of piety to give noticable amount regen.

Example: No gear my piety is 340
With weapon piety is 701 with a 200 MP regen per tick in combat.
Full gear piety is 2466 with a 300 MP regen per tick in combat.
Full gear out of combat is 600 mp regen per tick.

Wont touch on tenacity I has do almost no tanking.

Cant add this to my current but 1 piety= 8 mp per tick in combat

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Originally Posted by Colt47

If Tenacity were to become useful, they'd have to make it so that tanks can't benefit from direct hit.

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...and then if Determination gave more DPS than Tenacity we'd end up melding that or crit instead.

What I think is the issue with Tenacity would be that for it to be good, and due to the dps focused meta of savage, they'd have to buff it to the point where it surpasses all other DPS stats to the point of it being overpowered. If they stop us from being able to meld DH (since it doesn't occur natively on tank gear) then we'd just do crit and det anyway. =/

Edit:

Also after thinking about it a little more, I honestly don't think anything of value would be lost if the Materia system itself was scrapped. Clearing all of savage this expac and last expac I usually ended up melding all the same stats anyway. It's worth a few extra ilevels of secondaries and definitely helps boost you a little bit but with the stat squish that's coming up? I feel like the effect will probably be fairly negligible in comparison to the stats we have now.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

...and then if Determination gave more DPS than Tenacity we'd end up melding that or crit instead.

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All they need to do is buff Tenacity by about 1.5-2% damage to equal Determination's damage increase.

Then tenacity would equal determination damage wise while adding extra ~5% mitigation.

Mitigation, that thing tanks are supposed to be all about remember?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Also, wouldn't that mean you are the bad tank, since you are making the boss spin by fighting over enmity?

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Never said anything spinning the boss, that is your assumption.
I tend to main tank northward and don't typically lose aggro.
Hell, they provoke and still don't get the enmity first slot.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

You probably didn't take aggro from another tank simply because of DH and tenacity, the difference in damage isn't that large unless someone is missing materia or stacking tenacity.
You took aggro because you were dpsing with tank stance on while they were tanking.

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Yes, main tanks do usually dps with tank stance on... Northward, away from the party.
Which is the normal spot I go to when I have the enmity.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

All they need to do is buff Tenacity by about 1.5-2% damage to equal Determination's damage increase.

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Believe that would be the best solution, outside of removing the Tenacity and Piety stats.
While they are at it... make Piety give a damage boost too, otherwise healers will meld Direct Hit, Critical, or Determination. In that order.

Ignore the quite a bit part of my post above..wrong wording for how much you need.