Rescue being used as a weapon

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Few, if any fights actually require the use of Rescue for success. Anyone who feels like they need the healer to control their character for them in order to do their job can allow it. People feeling like it's their right and privelege to control others characters for them is the kind of sociopathic mindset that makes abilities like this such a bad idea in the first place.

Creating an extra step allowing people the option to grant or deny permission to control their character is a fair compromise; just make the first step something that is done out of combat. You're just being defensive and irrational.

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Yes they are priviledged, because game allows someone to move somebody by a design.
Your in game character IS NOT YOU.
Real life bodily inviolability laws does not apply TO THE GAME.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It would only make it harder to use on people who don't want it, and that's the point. We'd all love to be able to force everyone around us to do what we want them to, but that's not a good option to hand random sociopaths in an online community. ;)

Reporting isn't really a consistent option either. Not every healer is going to announce their intention to troll you in chat, and without an announcement good luck proving they're not just well intended healers who suck with Rescue.

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You seem like you're trying very hard to push the agenda that all what healers are doing with rescue is to troll people for griefing purposes. Next you're gonna say you don't want to be in a party to do any of the instanced content, because tanks are trolling by not being in tank stance and getting everyone killed or that DPS are not DPSing and just stand AFK while the fight is over.

You have tools to deal with trolls that are griefing the party. If healers pulled you into an AOE, the logs that GMs check show that you were pulled into one and killed after being rescued. You can vote kick them if it's very obvious that they're disrupting the party with their behavior. No point in removing a tool that can help in various situations as some mentioned just because some are using it to joke around in joke duties like dungeons and normal raids and trials.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

So you think having option to accept is worst than being dragged to new location and having your attacks canceled. Must not been playing very long or you know if don't hit accept nothing happens and your telling me it mess with your rotations. I think it is very good idea how to fix the problem. We sure didn't need this skill in ARR for the savage content.

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Yes, I do think that having to interrupt my rotation to hit “Yes, please Rescue me” when healers have deemed it necessary to rescue me during a fight is worse than this supposed trolling that I’ve never even been victim to. Doesn’t matter if not answering anything means automatic no: having a pop-up appear in the middle of a rotation—or having to prompt it from the Notices menu—is equally annoying and entirely unnecessary.

So yeah, I think it’s a terrible idea, and doesn’t really “fix” anything. Fixing implies that the skill is broken—it’s not broken. All this “solution” does is make the entire skill cumbersome for the person who is supposed to Rescued. As it’s already been explained, Rescue can be very useful when timed correctly, or when worked out before hand with a group on when and where to use.

But, I’ve only been playing for 4 years, have played most jobs to level 70 if not 80, and have done every piece of content in this game. So what do I know. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Guess you don't get the joke where a healer above said they use rescue to kill off players and thought it is funny. Content goes to them if see them when tanking I will use it on them if they try kill ones off on purpose with rescue.

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I’d be careful doing that. Considering it is actively griefing and you can get suspended for it. Even if they misused Rescue, that doesn’t protect you should they opt to report you for Shirking them.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Eh, I'm not saying it's illegal. The game allows the behavior and the game could also disallow it.

I'm mainly just addressing the people who feel the game can't disallow it, because they have some kind of consuming need to control other players.

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Though I do love the assumption that players who Rescue have “sociopathic tendencies” (lol) and want to “control other players”, are you considering how the ones who would rather not be bugged by needless confirmation windows in the middle of their rotation even for planned uses of the skill feel? I don’t want to be annoyed by random pop-ups while I’m trying to do my rotation just because some person decided that they wanted to have control over another player and dictate when they can and cannot use their skill.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

anti-social behavior.

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Do you actually know what real anti-social behavior is, or are you seriously trying to say that someone who uses a Rescue skill in a video game is a sociopath? Even though the ones who troll may be annoying, they are likely a far cry from a true sociopath.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Yes they are priviledged, because game allows someone to move somebody by a design.
Your in game character IS NOT YOU.
Real life bodily inviolability laws does not apply TO THE GAME.

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Eh, I'm not saying it's illegal. The game allows the behavior and the game could also disallow it.

I'm mainly just addressing the people who feel the game can't disallow it, because they have some kind of consuming need to control other players.

If someone is rescuing the tank into more mobs, the tank probably should have pulled more mobs.
Healers have been made pretty boring this expansion, the only way to keep the excitement up is a risk of danger and the only thing that can kinda pose that outside of endgame raid mechanics is a million mobs pummeling on your tank.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

You seem like you're trying very hard to push the agenda that all what healers are doing with rescue is to troll people for griefing purposes. Next you're gonna say you don't want to be in a party to do any of the instanced content, because tanks are trolling by not being in tank stance and getting everyone killed or that DPS are not DPSing and just stand AFK while the fight is over.

You have tools to deal with trolls that are griefing the party. If healers pulled you into an AOE, the logs that GMs check show that you were pulled into one and killed after being rescued. You can vote kick them if it's very obvious that they're disrupting the party with their behavior. No point in removing a tool that can help in various situations as some mentioned just because some are using it to joke around in joke duties like dungeons and normal raids and trials.

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All I'm really saying is there's no reason for an ability that is perfectly tuned as a tool for griefing to function as it does. Handing an online community the perfect tools to harass each other is basically just begging for anti-social behavior.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Though I do love the assumption that players who Rescue have “sociopathic tendencies” (lol) and want to “control other players”, are you considering how the ones who would rather not be bugged by needless confirmation windows in the middle of their rotation even for planned uses of the skill feel? I don’t want to be annoyed by random pop-ups while I’m trying to do my rotation just because some person decided that they wanted to have control over another player and dictate when they can and cannot use their skill.



Do you actually know what real anti-social behavior is, or are you seriously trying to say that someone who uses a Rescue skill in a video game is a sociopath? Even though the ones who troll may be annoying, they are likely a far cry from a true sociopath.

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The suggestion was to have an out of combat ability you cast maybe at the beginning of the run, prompting party members to allow or disallow rescues. Doesn't need to all happen during combat.

Also, sociopathy is a blanket term for a wide range of anti-social behaviors and tendencies. I think a lot of you are confusing it with Psychopathy.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

All I'm really saying is there's no reason for an ability that is perfectly tuned as a tool for griefing to function as it does. Handing an online community the perfect tools to harass each other is basically just begging for anti-social behavior.

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No it's not a perfect tool for harassing others. You have the tools to report it. Just like how you can report people for MPK easily just by the fact that the pulled a mob and got you killed by its AOE even if they said nothing. You can do the same if rescue was used that way.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

No it's not a perfect tool for harassing others. You have the tools to report it. Just like how you can report people for MPK easily just by the fact that the pulled a mob and got you killed by its AOE even if they said nothing. You can do the same if rescue was used that way.

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You can technically report people for anything. The report won't hold up just because you got Rescued into something bad and died, though.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You can technically report people for anything. The report won't hold up just because you got Rescued into something bad and died, though.

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It will. It's called Monster Player Kill (MPK), which is against TOS. People got banned when Eureka was first released for doing that. Higher level players would simply pull a bunch of mobs into low level groups and get them killed by the mobs' AOEs. The didn't even have to say anything, since the logs show what happened.

People also got banned for it by doing it on bots, when the bot owner reported them.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

It will. It's called Monster Player Kill (MPK), which is against TOS. People got banned when Eureka was first released for doing that. Higher level players would simply pull a bunch of mobs into low level groups and get them killed by the mobs' AOEs. The didn't even have to say anything, since the logs show what happened.

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That's different; high level players training enemies onto low level groups is something the GMs can verify as intentional grief. Healers pulling a teammate into AoE could easily be interpreted as an accident, or a series of accidents.

If healer uses rescue on tank into more monsters and causes the party to wipe because of it they should be kicked and replaced. Its tanks job to decide how many monsters to pull that they can handle. Some people are good at large pulls others that's new is not.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Sociopath just means anti-social; that's obviously not a compliment but it's also not anything extreme. I didn't say anyone was a violent or psychotic sociopath.

Also, I still don't see the problem with allowing people the option to consent. If they don't want you controlling their character and they die that's on them. Trying to force your will on them is anti-social of you.

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From Google Sociopath :"a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behaviour."

"A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can’t understand others’ feelings. They’ll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause." -Source

Using Rescue is neither and Extreme antisocial attitude and less it is used for trolling explicitly its not causing harm. Sociopath is not the word you are looking for to describe someone moving your character. One could also argue that consent is given by choosing to participate in the game, much like how the act of playing pvp consents to someone trying to kill you in game

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

That's different; high level players training enemies onto low level groups is something the GMs can verify as intentional grief. Healers pulling a teammate into AoE could easily be interpreted as an accident, or a series of accidents.

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If you were to believe it to be an accident or a series of accidents, why would you blame the GMs if they believed it to be so then? If you can tell it's not an accident and it's an actual trolling, then so can the GMs. And you and the rest of the party can also vote kick in this case and report it without having to wait for a GM to take action first.

Just for reference
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...directly_from/

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

From Google Sociopath :"a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behaviour."

"A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can’t understand others’ feelings. They’ll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause." -Source

Using Rescue is neither and Extreme antisocial attitude and less it is used for trolling explicitly its not causing harm. Sociopath is not the word you are looking for to describe someone moving your character. One could also argue that consent is given by choosing to participate in the game, much like how the act of playing pvp consents to someone trying to kill you in game

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Eh, those feeling the need to impose their will on others, and arguing against making it optional, are likely not understanding or respecting other people's feelings. It's anti-social behavior and fits in the purview of sociopathy.

That isn't really the focus of the point I'm trying to make, though. Sociopathy casts a wide net, so we could probably spend all week debating which anti-social behaviors fit and which don't. I'm not sure why you're all so focused on that.

Easiest way for you to fix the problem if healer keeps using rescue on you and causing ones to die. Just kick them and blacklist in contacts. That way you never get them in your party again.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

If were you to believe it to be an accident or a series of accidents, why would you blame the GMs if they believed it to be so then? If you can tell it's not an accident and it's an actual trolling, then so can the GMs. And you and the rest of the party can also vote kick in this case and report it without having to wait for a GM to take action first.

Just for reference
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...directly_from/

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I wouldn't blame the GM. I'd blame the ability for making it so easy to troll people without consequence. That's what it does and what it is, so why not do something to make it less of a tool for harassment?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

That's what it does and what it is

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If you don't know how to use it, don't complain about it lol.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The suggestion was to have an out of combat ability you cast maybe at the beginning of the run, prompting party members to allow or disallow rescues. Doesn't need to all happen during combat.

Also, sociopathy is a blanket term for a wide range of anti-social behaviors and tendencies. I think a lot of you are confusing it with Psychopathy.

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I’m not confusing it with anything. A “sociopath” is generally someone who is diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder—which requires them to display multiple kinds of anti-social behaviors, not just one. You’re so focused on the control aspect being enough when, from a scientific point of view, it’s never enough to diagnose an individual with ASPD just because they’re a control freak. Someone being a control freak doesn’t mean that they are a sociopath.

I think you should calm it with the hyperbole, personally.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Eh, those feeling the need to impose their will on others, and arguing against making it optional, are likely not understanding or respecting other people's feelings. It's anti-social behavior and fits in the purview of sociopathy.

That isn't really the focus of the point I'm trying to make, though. Sociopathy casts a wide net, so we could probably spend all week debating which anti-social behaviors fit and which don't. I'm not sure why you're all so focused on that.

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Because you’re literally saying that people who use Rescue are sociopaths, dude.

Though, I do love that you’re so upset about people “controlling” your character with Rescue that you would advocate for controlling whether or not they can use their skill in the first place. Is this not terribly ironic?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Eh, those feeling the need to impose their will on others, and arguing against making it optional, are likely not understanding or respecting other people's feelings. It's anti-social behavior and fits in the purview of sociopathy.

That isn't really the focus of the point I'm trying to make, though. Sociopathy casts a wide net, so we could probably spend all week debating which anti-social behaviors fit and which don't. I'm not sure why you're all so focused on that.

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I feel youre really stretching definitions there, at what point does peoples feelings and the general desire to play the game clash. Do you need to "Respect the feelings" of a RPing tank who doesnt use aoes and stops all the time, or a dancer who only dance and no other actions, at what level does it become sociopathy to not put up with this people. The reason we're all focusing on that is because implicetly youve called us all sociopaths if we're arguing for free rescuing of people, and if you understood peoples feelings you would understand that

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

If you don't know how to use it, don't complain about it lol.

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But I do know how to use it. I cast in on a party member and move them where I want them. What determines the correct way to use the ability depends on where I want them. If I'm in a bad mood I may not want them to go where they want to go. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

But I do know how to use it. I cast in on a party member and move them where I want them. What determines the correct way to use the ability depends on where I want them. If I'm in a bad mood I may not want them to go where they want to go. ;)

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There we go, the problem was not with the ability all this time. It was with you all along :P

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I feel youre really stretching definitions there, at what point does peoples feelings and the general desire to play the game clash. Do you need to "Respect the feelings" of a RPing tank who doesnt use aoes and stops all the time, or a dancer who only dance and no other actions, at what level does it become sociopathy to not put up with this people. The reason we're all focusing on that is because implicetly youve called us all sociopaths if we're arguing for free rescuing of people, and if you understood peoples feelings you would understand that

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If you don't like how certain people play you don't have to play with them. It's the part where we're forcibly taking their character from them and playing puppet master against their will that's a tad sociopathic. I agree it's on the lighter end of what would fit that term, and I even threw some ;) ;) ;) on my initial claim to show I wasn't entirely serious. Still, it's not incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

There we go, the problem was not with the ability all this time. It was with you all along :P

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All online communities have mean people in them. The idea is to not give them consequence free ways to harass other players.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

All online communities have mean people in them. The idea is to not give them consequence free ways to harass other players.

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They weren't given that though. Try being a healer in my party and start harassing others with rescue. See if I can get you kicked and banned or not.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

All online communities have mean people in them. The idea is to not give them consequence free ways to harass other players.

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But there is, isn't there? We just had, and was mentioned in this thread a few times too, a person punished for using rescue poorly. That's official by the game punishment for trolling, can also take Alucard135's player example too.

Like if you refused to heal or raise.. There is something different with losing control of your character, like stuns in PvP just feel horrific lol (I remember in old vanilla WoW there was 40 second sleep sort of things... /shudder XD), but it's certainly not punishment free. Unhappy when people are mean but I personally find rescue quite enjoyable to use and think it's also very helpful skill (wish I had one for enemies lol).

Personally when a healer saves me with a rescue I feel like we just had a hug, like when a Paladin does a clutch cover, or when the tank shirks after you provoke :D (I really, really, like these moments).

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If you don't like how certain people play you don't have to play with them. It's the part where we're forcibly taking their character from them and playing puppet master against their will that's a tad sociopathic. I agree it's on the lighter end of what would fit that term, and I even threw some ;) ;) ;) on my initial claim to show I wasn't entirely serious. Still, it's not incorrect.

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Your emojis came off as passive aggressive smug, and youre making rescue sound way more nefarious than it actually is to try and lend credence to your point, no one is going "MWHAHAHA I'M THE PUPPET LORD, DANCE FOR ME MORTAL", theyre more likely going "Oh shit that guys gonna die better save his life", or even "It'd be more beneficial for everyone if that guy was over here in this stack marker/bubble". Neither of those are sociopathic, in fact they are empathic in nature.

This ability is just annoying to begin with.

I know my casting time and how long I can wait and keep casting before I have to dodge.

Stop using rescue on me Karen and screwing up my rotation cause you think you know better than me. There is nothing more annoying than a rescue happy healer. Had one in roulette recently who would use it on me every time there was an aoe I could easily dodge after finishing my cast and I almost just left the instance. "Stop using rescue I had plenty of time to finish my cast and dodge" "well don't stand in aoes then" ...it's like, I'm not you half wit, let me finish my dang cast /irritated

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m not confusing it with anything. A “sociopath” is generally someone who is diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder—which requires them to display multiple kinds of anti-social behaviors, not just one. You’re so focused on the control aspect being enough when, from a scientific point of view, it’s never enough to diagnose an individual with ASPD just because they’re a control freak. Someone being a control freak doesn’t mean that they are a sociopath.

I think you should calm it with the hyperbole, personally.



Because you’re literally saying that people who use Rescue are sociopaths, dude.

Though, I do love that you’re so upset about people “controlling” your character with Rescue that you would advocate for controlling whether or not they can use their skill in the first place. Is this not terribly ironic?

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I wasn't making a medical diagnosis, I was just pointing out how some of the extreme control freak tendencies here are a bit sociopathic. It was honestly just a throwaway comment anyways, you're the ones making it the focal point of the discussion.

Anyways, all I was advocating for is an option to opt out of it for people. The fact that so many of you feel that people absolutely should not be allowed to opt out of your control of them is a bit... socio... socially weird. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

But I do know how to use it. I cast in on a party member and move them where I want them. What determines the correct way to use the ability depends on where I want them. If I'm in a bad mood I may not want them to go where they want to go. ;)

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Quite literally not how you use rescue at all.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

If healer uses rescue on tank into more monsters and causes the party to wipe because of it they should be kicked and replaced. Its tanks job to decide how many monsters to pull that they can handle. Some people are good at large pulls others that's new is not.

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Here is the thing let us say the healer used it to force larger pulls the only way a wipe would happen is if the tank does not grab aggro which with the new tanking changes I cannot think of many legitimate reasons for a tank to not be able to get aggro short from mentioning they were AFK or something. So I would say the wipe was on the fault of the tank, now if the healer was overestimating their own skills and the tank got aggro, used cooldowns etc . . . that is a different story.

I guess a better way of saying what I am trying to say is even if the healer forces a larger pull if the party wipes due to the tank not getting aggro or using cool downs, the tank is also responsible for the wipe. Sure the healer put the tank in the situation where a wipe could happen, but if the tank froze up and forgot to push buttons, then their actions also contributed to the final outcome IE the wipe.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Here is the thing let us say the healer used it to force larger pulls the only way a wipe would happen is if the tank does not grab aggro which with the new tanking changes I cannot think of many legitimate reasons for a tank to not be able to get aggro short from mentioning they were AFK or something. So I would say the wipe was on the fault of the tank, now if the healer was overestimating their own skills and the tank got aggro, used cooldowns etc . . . that is a different story.

I guess a better way of saying what I am trying to say is even if the healer forces a larger pull if the party wipes due to the tank not getting aggro or using cool downs, the tank is also responsible for the wipe. Sure the healer put the tank in the situation where a wipe could happen, but if the tank froze up and forgot to push buttons, then their actions also contributed to the final outcome IE the wipe.

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Wrong since healer pulled the tank into monsters to make a bigger pull. But did you stop and think if tanks had skills on cd before you did it. Don't try put blame on the tank when your one who decided to use rescue to pull more monsters. Nice try but if group wipes from it. That's 100% on you who caused it. Tank is leader of the party not the healer. Every time seen healer or dps who pulls extra monsters on purpose tank will let them die. Teaches them who is the leader of the party is.

There is only two times I will use Rescue. One is when I know a mechanic is coming in advance and I'm trying to save a person who keeps getting hit by it. The other is when you proceed to get hit by everything, and complain I'm not healing enough. When the 2nd comes into play, you die ON MY TERMS, and you will not get rezzed if I know we can beat it without you.

I can't count how many times DPS would grab extra mobs, not even realizing, or evening caring that I blew all my CDs on the last big pull. Tanks pull according to their CD availability. You don't do a monster pull when rampart and the 30% cd are both down ;/

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Originally Posted by hynaku

If healer uses rescue on tank into more monsters and causes the party to wipe because of it they should be kicked and replaced. Its tanks job to decide how many monsters to pull that they can handle. Some people are good at large pulls others that's new is not.

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Not good at large pulls? Bro, you just AoE and use mitigation. It's not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Easiest way for you to fix the problem if healer keeps using rescue on you and causing ones to die. Just kick them and blacklist in contacts. That way you never get them in your party again.

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Blacklisting doesnt prevent you from being grouped up with them. It just prevents then from joining party finder's that you specifically make and from sending you tells and stuff.

I mean at the end of the day, just remember what kind of person those people really are. I just feel bad for them, that their entire train of thought is akin to a toddler or slightly above a bonobo, I mean just *imagine* how bad they are in real life? They may cause you temporary unhappiness in the game, but society, their coworkers, they give that person permanent unhappiness. Every day that person goes to work and every puts up a facade to interact with that person. You aren't alone in truly despise this person. Also if it gives you comfort these same people who do this will experience a life of pain and loneliness, their family will abandon them as soon as possible, maybe a few Pity parties for them. Ultimately they will be old, in an goverment home, rotting in their own bed sores and feces. Slowly dieing in misery, while still blaming everyone but their own piss poor attitude on why life treated them badly.

Every pond has its scum.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

All online communities have mean people in them. The idea is to not give them consequence free ways to harass other players.

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And if you want to be 100% insulated from mean people, go play Nintendo. There's a reason why MMOs tend to have inflated age requirements vs other genres, not to mention the whole 'online interactions are not rated etcetc.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's the part where we're forcibly taking their character from them and playing puppet master against their will that's a tad sociopathic.

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1 reposition, 150 second cool down, need to be grouped, need to be in combat, need an aoe or puddle that'll even do anything in content where I'm not going to wipe us in the process, need to even be bothered. You seem to be under the impression that I'm remote desktoping in and stealing your controls?

Whilst I appreciate that you might not have participated in content where Rescue actually has a fair chance to shine, it would be good if you would at least consider that it is an excellent optimisation tool and does actually have a pretty good place in the end game and sees a bunch of use across the last two savage tiers.

This game already does far more than pretty much any other high profile MMO I've played to coddle and cushion the playerbase. If you think the sheer indignity of getting repositioned against your delicate little will once in a blue moon is bad then you've really seen nothing at all. The endgame scenes in FFXI and Everquest at their primes would have eaten you alive.

I made a post previously about adding an option to disable actions that have uncontrollable effects on your character like Rescue, but healers as a demographic seem to be heavily composed of "holier-than-thou knows better-than-you" types who love it too much and are too inexperienced at the game to understand why it's not even that useful and almost always results in a negative outcome unless it's pre-planned in a static or PF setting.

Random DF healers griefing with it or killing people with it (intentionally and unintentionally) is just the price we have to pay for them to watch Twitch clips of better healers pulling people out of mechanics doing their LB in content they'll never actually participate in.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Wrong since healer pulled the tank into monsters to make a bigger pull. But did you stop and think if tanks had skills on cd before you did it. Don't try put blame on the tank when your one who decided to use rescue to pull more monsters. Nice try but if group wipes from it. That's 100% on you who caused it. Tank is leader of the party not the healer. Every time seen healer or dps who pulls extra monsters on purpose tank will let them die. Teaches them who is the leader of the party is.

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Thing is if the tank holds aggro even if the tank does not pop any cool downs if the healer has theirs and the DPS is on point the healer can keep even a brain dead tank alive they just need to hold aggro. All a healer that pulls for a tank that has no cool downs ready does is make their job harder, even if someone pulls extra mobs that does not give someone the excuse to not perform their primary function which is to hold aggro.

Granted always exceptions, but this is just generally a healer should more or less be able to keep a tank alive through a larger pull even without cool downs if they hold aggro and avoid aoes, more or less by doing their basic function as a tank. When people use to pull extra mobs for me I simply just got the aggro, if I died because they pulled extra mobs that was on them, but if we wiped because I failed to grab aggro either due to lack of skill or willingness how is that not partly my fault? I failed to perform my role as a tank.