Monk 4.2 Adjustments

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Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen

Then when you rethink about it - and realize we have to do the following to get that effect:

1) Shoulder Tackle must not be on cooldown - so a move with decent potency should be removed/delayed from our DPS rotation on the off chance we get targeted by a mechanic.
2) Go into Fists of Wind.
3) Wind Tackle.
4) Riddle of Wind. (GL refreshed / granted)
5) Go back into Fists of Fire.

It's a pretty crap way of handling the issue - putting it behind 3 keystrokes - 4 really because we will always go back into FoF afterwards.

At this point the Riddles, the tackles - everything that came with SB Monk - and Monk on whole, needs a complete overhaul.

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Shoulder tackle is usually on cooldown during GL downtime phases.If you know the fight mechanics you will know where you are useing it.
And to be honest i dont want to see a noob friendly way of keeping up GL.It defeats the purpose of it being a high skill high reward job.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I posted every fight at 75th percentile, including exdeath where they do come close to competing. Did you even look at the stats I posted, or did you dismiss them because of some notion that Happy is an unassailable expert on monk?

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Its true at the 75th percentile, its false at the 99th(or in neo's case the 100th). Im sure that's what he means.

*edit* looking again at the post you were responding to, it was actually a sarcastic comment about happy

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Shoulder tackle is usually on cooldown during GL downtime phases.If you know the fight mechanics you will know where you are useing it.
And to be honest i dont want to see a noob friendly way of keeping up GL.It defeats the purpose of it being a high skill high reward job.

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The question, as I see it, will become is a 130 potency move worth it if it means that you might lose all three stacks of greased lightning? How much potency will potentially be lost if you also can't RoE during that downtime, or if the jump comes right before you were about to refresh GL? It's a question of is that one move going to be worth the potency loss of missing stacks of GL later?

I think this will become an issue where monks have to be smart about when and how cool downs are used rather than just spamming them as they come up.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

The question, as I see it, will become is a 130 potency move worth it if it means that you might lose all three stacks of greased lightning? How much potency will potentially be lost if you also can't RoE during that downtime, or if the jump comes right before you were about to refresh GL? It's a question of is that one move going to be worth the potency loss of missing stacks of GL later?

I think this will become an issue where monks have to be smart about when and how cool downs are used rather than just spamming them as they come up.

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The thing is, unless they're stopwatching absolute-time phase transitions, none of the relevant information is likely to be there by which to weigh one's choices when either the cooldown readiness or the event requiring it (which will almost certainly be merely conditional, as RoW can only grant up to 2 GCDs longer a duration) occurs.

You can now get a GCD more GL if the jump occurs at Opo-opo, 2 more if at Raptor, or one more non-Coeurl skills during PB. ...That's it.

While RoE is still rendered useless by a full shield or any jump transition without damage within the 10 to 16 second initial window AND within the >16 seconds latter window...

Yes. But also there are certain jumps where you know for certain that you won’t be able to refresh using RoE. Two that come to mind are the second boss in Skalla when he makes 8 minions, and Rofacale both during the lights out and the big raid-wide attack after the parties split for adds

Of all the nice suggestions, this is what they pick...

It's important to know when to fold. It's part of progress to fail... yet... they seem to unaware of it x)

It matters little. There is no hope for monk this expansion. Enjoy the story and the content and wait for next. At least, I know I have given up hope.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

And to be honest i dont want to see a noob friendly way of keeping up GL.It defeats the purpose of it being a high skill high reward job.

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This. . . this is just a bad elitist attitude.

You realize if it creates too much of a skills gap they're just going to nerf it right?

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

Its true at the 75th percentile, its false at the 99th(or in neo's case the 100th). Im sure that's what he means.

*edit* looking again at the post you were responding to, it was actually a sarcastic comment about happy

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I tend to take most statistics above the 75th percentile with a grain of salt (especially 100th percentile) due to those often needing specialized comps that sacrifice other member's damage as well as plenty of balance cards. Fair enough though, it's not always the case, and at the very upper end MNK is outdoing and competing with SAM. However, I have reason to believe his comment about Happy wasn't sarcasm, as he earlier in the thread said:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

mnk just might have gotten too much love? sure, mnk needs to pull a bit ahead of nin ..., and needed a tackle- mastery revamp... , but dps-wise mnk was already competing with Sam numbers (like Mr. Happy noted), now it just might pull right up too sam if not overtake,.. with the mnk utilities?

mnk will become the new smn.. (or/ and new nin)?

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to which someone responded

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Delete Mr Happy. 99.99% of the time he is wrong and that 0.01% you hesitate, he is way off the mark.

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Then his response, and the rest is history.

While I do agree Tornado Kick and stances could be tweaked a bit, I find Stormblood Monk enjoyable. Now that there is a tweak to RoW to where it might actually be used rather than a town speed boost itll be nice to actually use all 3 riddles in fights. I personally enjoy whenever I get to RoF. I am sitting there punching all fast and stuff then pop that to make the fist of rhalgr more destructive. That is my lore headcannon for the ability hahah.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This. . . this is just a bad elitist attitude.

You realize if it creates too much of a skills gap they're just going to nerf it right?

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No its not an elitist attitude.Hate the way people throw that word around for no reason.
The fact is that monk has always been about being the high skill ceiling melee dps with the reward of high dps.
If you take that away then you take away the draw of playing monk in the first place.
Giving 2 stacks of gl on wind would be rediculous and probably encourage people to not pay attention to their stacks.

I personally think if they wanted to go the riddle route then they should have had them just replace the fists and not just double our number of buttons to manage them - especially given they said they were trimming down on ability bloat this expansion. This could have worked sort of how thunder and stones get upgraded to II / III / IV. Fists of Earth could have just evolved into Riddle of Earth at 64 (and a trait granted at that level for an additional 5% damage).

Tornado Kick could them consume all stacks and give a buff called Rolling Thunder which lasts thirty seconds.

We could have had another ability - Hurricane Kick - that consumes rolling thunder and 3 chakra to grant GL 3.

Boom.
Done.
Monk's get a far more reliable means to reacquire GL3. If GL3 is lost, we still use our GL dump for jumps. No more "shall I use Tornado Kick or roll the dice and pray I get hit under Riddle of Earth". No more upcoming Riddle of Wind which just adds needless steps to the process by having us... change stances (FoW) - tackle - tackle - change stances (FoF) - just to refresh stacks or get to GL2.

This Riddle of Wind change - for dungeons is great, probably. For raids - it's a muddy mess of a fix. For jump phases around 30 seconds long this will be our new Downtime Dance.

Change stances (FoW) - tackle - tackle - [BOSS JUMPS] Riddle of Earth (wait to get hit....) - change stances (FoF). All this while rebuilding Chakra and trying to maintain Coeurl Form.

My suggestion, which took all of a minute a week ago - gives us the same window for refreshing GL3 - grants us an actual new ability (we were the only job to not receive one this expansion - while classes like NIN got THREE!)

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

No its not an elitist attitude.Hate the way people throw that word around for no reason.
The fact is that monk has always been about being the high skill ceiling melee dps with the reward of high dps.
If you take that away then you take away the draw of playing monk in the first place.
Giving 2 stacks of gl on wind would be rediculous and probably encourage people to not pay attention to their stacks.

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One of the big things this expansion, though, was to reduce the floor/ceiling disparity for players on a job. That's why you saw things like the changes to the cast times on BRD/MCH and Enochian being attached to just being in Astral Fire/Umbral Ice. They're intentionally making jobs easier to play so that more players can play more jobs without suffering.

There will always be a gap between novice and master players of a job, but they want to make that gap as small as possible, and if more opportunities to gain and maintain the core job mechanic of monk are introduced, making it easier to play, then that's not a bad thing. New players to the job will have an easier time getting into it, and master players will figure out how to best utilize these skills to their full potential.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This. . . this is just a bad elitist attitude.

You realize if it creates too much of a skills gap they're just going to nerf it right?

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Personally, I disagree. MNK has always been a high skill job. Ramp up and keeping your stacks, the positional req bonus damage, knowing how to weave and burn your OGCD abilities. As mindless as it can be seen at times, MNK requires quite the attention.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

There will always be a gap between novice and master players of a job, but they want to make that gap as small as possible, and if more opportunities to gain and maintain the core job mechanic of monk are introduced, making it easier to play, then that's not a bad thing. New players to the job will have an easier time getting into it, and master players will figure out how to best utilize these skills to their full potential.

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This exactly, but I can't disregard his point when I see MNKs (and DPS in general) make poor use of their abilities. And no, I am not talking about you have to be 90th percentile or get out. I m talking about seeing MNKs standing with the tank, hitting the mob/boss and ignoring positionals.

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Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen

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I mean, if they need to QoL SB abilities at this point, RoE should deny getting any shield just like Darkside doesn't allow you to get any MP, forcing MNK to take the hit; I mean, we have like 20% def bonus at one point, might as well make it worthwhile.


Way too many things can be proposed, which to me shows how MNK doesn't have a design focus.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

I mean, if they need to QoL SB abilities at this point, RoE should deny getting any shield just like Darkside doesn't allow you to get any MP, forcing MNK to take the hit; I mean, we have like 20% def bonus at one point, might as well make it worthwhile.

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I think many monks agree that if they're going to adjust RoE in light of how it is impacted by shields, many would just prefer that you get the GL refresh when you activate the ability and also possibly that earth's reply activates at that point as well. It seems silly that you go into riddle of earth when you're about to eat raid-wide damage, but don't get your bonus shield until after the damage has already gone out.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I think many monks agree that if they're going to adjust RoE in light of how it is impacted by shields, many would just prefer that you get the GL refresh when you activate the ability and also possibly that earth's reply activates at that point as well. It seems silly that you go into riddle of earth when you're about to eat raid-wide damage, but don't get your bonus shield until after the damage has already gone out.

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I was avoiding it being direct about it but that is my sentiment too. Even better would be that earth's reply freezes GL until you take a hit. (But that might be too OP)

60 second Perfect Balance.

This are going to get interesting around this joint.

PB at 60 is easy free damage at this point. But with that I don't see the need to have RoW if PB is down to 60. FoW opener seems like a thing.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

PB at 60 is easy free damage at this point. But with that I don't see the need to have RoW if PB is down to 60. FoW opener seems like a thing.

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It'll likely be a niche GL refresh like RoE is now. If you have Shoulder Tackle up and need to close the gap while GL is low, you can refresh it? Will have to play around with it and see, but I could see the possibility of an opener of Wind Tackle > Demolish > Riddle of Wind > Dragon Kick > Fists of Fire > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch. So, like you said, lets you get your stacks just slightly slower than using Perfect Balance, but lets you save that skill for later in the encounter.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

PB at 60 is easy free damage at this point. But with that I don't see the need to have RoW if PB is down to 60. FoW opener seems like a thing.

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I think Riddle of Wind was aimed at dungeons - keeping GL between groups of mobs the same as how other classes can refresh their core mechanic between packs or just have double their duration.

I mean, RoW can be used for raids - and probably should- but it's an overly long process - which I think is why PB saw this treatment. Easier to just PB after a jump phase than FoW - WT - RoW - [Boss Jumps] - RoE - wait for hit - FoW -- all while recharging Chakra and maintaining Coeurl form...

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Originally Posted by wereotter

It'll likely be a niche GL refresh like RoE is now. If you have Shoulder Tackle up and need to close the gap while GL is low, you can refresh it? Will have to play around with it and see, but I could see the possibility of an opener of Wind Tackle > Demolish > Riddle of Wind > Dragon Kick > Fists of Fire > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch. So, like you said, lets you get your stacks just slightly slower than using Perfect Balance, but lets you save that skill for later in the encounter.

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I definitely see it at that point too, But with PB at 60, I don't see the reason to unless the target is being burned so fast that it'll jump or die within 60 sec to have RoW. I mean, I welcome the change as another way to keep our stacks (since RoW keeps 30s CD) I just have this unshakeable "why tho?" in the back of my head.

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Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen

I think Riddle of Wind was aimed at dungeons - keeping GL between groups of mobs the same as how other classes can refresh their core mechanic between packs or just have double their duration.

I mean, RoW can be used for raids - and probably should- but it's an overly long process - which I think is why PB saw this treatment. Easier to just PB after a jump phase than FoW - WT - RoW - [Boss Jumps] - RoE - wait for hit - FoW -- all while recharging Chakra and maintaining Coeurl form...

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Well I was thinking of FoW opener and keeping PB for a jump. RoW might be worth a TK here or there now considering the potential use.

mnk and smn should be like what blm and sam are to eachother..

blm & sam no utility but highest dps (maybe speed kill meta alts, but not much prog meta alts)

mnk & smn, both 2nd highest personal dps, after sam & blm.., but thanx to utility welcome in prog metas as alts.. and overall flexible

but like this, see mnk pulling away like smn did just before 4.2,.. and smn falling back to the love it got around 4.0 (even if not that bad... but still)

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Well I was thinking of FoW opener and keeping PB for a jump. RoW might be worth a TK here or there now considering the potential use.

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Yeah, definitely during IR / Trick Attack windows and such. Gonna be fun finding the a rhythm for Monk with these changes. I'm still kinda annoyed that the GL on RoW is tied to the second tackle. I would have much preferred the second tackle just got eliminated at Wind Tackle had the GL attached. In desperate emergencies I don't much fancy changing into FoW and spamming Tackle Twice just to refresh GL at 1 second.

Oh well. What is QoL anyways. Now we have three abilities that all help maintain GL in niche ways. Yay ability bloat :D

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

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SMNs losses are minimal and they still have a lot to bring vs other casters. MNK doesn't really have as much utility if we're to compare it like that.

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Originally Posted by BucklesTrespen

Yeah, definitely during IR / Trick Attack windows and such. Gonna be fun finding the a rhythm for Monk with these changes. I'm still kinda annoyed that the GL on RoW is tied to the second tackle. I would have much preferred the second tackle just got eliminated at Wind Tackle had the GL attached. In desperate emergencies I don't much fancy changing into FoW and spamming Tackle Twice just to refresh GL at 1 second.

Oh well. What is QoL anyways. Now we have three abilities that all help maintain GL in niche ways. Yay ability bloat :D

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At 30s CD it isn't so bad. Just the stance dance feels unecessary. I still would've preferred it as a 120s CD granting GL4 with 15% damage increase (no need for SkS buff)

Still, yes. ability bloat ftw /s xD

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

SMNs losses are minimal and they still have a lot to bring vs other casters. MNK doesn't really have as much utility if we're to compare it like that.

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This.

Also it's not just utility that's supposed to determine the amount of DPS a job should do, but it was also explicitly stated that mobility and how impacted the job is by raid mechanics would impact DPS. Considering summoner is probably the most mobile job after bard and machinist, and that their damage is pretty continuous with regard to DOTs and pets through movement phases and other general mechanics, AND they have utility in the form of devotion and raise, they should be closer to the same level of DPS as a red mage. Monks given the lower amount of utility we have, and the greater impact movement and mechanics can have on the ability to maintain greased lightning really should be in the top 3 DPS, behind samurai and black mage.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

This.

Also it's not just utility that's supposed to determine the amount of DPS a job should do, but it was also explicitly stated that mobility and how impacted the job is by raid mechanics would impact DPS. Considering summoner is probably the most mobile job after bard and machinist, and that their damage is pretty continuous with regard to DOTs and pets through movement phases and other general mechanics, AND they have utility in the form of devotion and raise, they should be closer to the same level of DPS as a red mage. Monks given the lower amount of utility we have, and the greater impact movement and mechanics can have on the ability to maintain greased lightning really should be in the top 3 DPS, behind samurai and black mage.

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Agreed. However we should also keep in mind that MNK has had a degree of versatility, but SE still has zero idea on how to make it work. I'd be OK with MNK having similar utility to SMN. Right now, MNK is good. Not good good, just good.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

This.
Considering summoner is probably the most mobile job after bard and machinist, and that their damage is pretty continuous with regard to DOTs and pets through movement phases and other general mechanics, AND they have utility in the form of devotion and raise, they should be closer to the same level of DPS as a red mage.

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To be fair, as summoner we dont have as much mobility as you think. We have for example Bahamut during which we cant move even slightly. Also the raise is tricky, we can only raise on specific and short windows if we dont want to destroy our rotation/dps. Also smn, is very punishing because of his extremely tight rotation, you are not not allowed to die. Besides, we have to control our pet while doing all of that.

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Originally Posted by Kaimishi

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While SMN is not a Swiss Army Knife of support like NIN, BRD or PLD. Shiroe was pointing out how SMN and MNK are akin to BLM and SAM and should be on the a similar 2nd best personal DPS with utility. However, SMN has much more to contribute overall to the team vs MNK, this is without considering your points on not affecting your personal performance as SMN, which we could also argue the same for MNK but that would be moot if we're honest. Brotherhood is still limited by damage type (5% physical ATK, casters get nothing) vs Devotion (2% ATK, 2% DEF, 5% HEAL Magic) buff. And Mantra while being much stronger for healing it doesn't do much of helping healers with an incoming attack ever so often.

MNK is (or was) a Swiss Army Knife... of personal survival, but that also sacrifices our personal performance.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

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I quoted the text where he explains that smn dmg should be tuned down to rdm dmg because of a so called mobility and utility. About your post, I think the comparison between monk and smn is not legit. Smn is not meta, it was close to become on the 4th slot but not anymore. Besides your role is nowhere close to ours in utility (virus, apo, etc..). Also casters are rip in terms of performances.
The comparison could be made tho, if rdps was standardized, type of dmg-tied buffs removed and pt management coming back, but we're far away from that.

devtion is on a longer CD than Brotherhood..., smn will only rez with swiftcast (unless it can stop a whole wipe).., mantra's CD is being reduced..

ifrite / garuda have nice buffs, but pets die sometimes

=> mnk and smn should be on a similar footing, as blm and sam are both on a same

just before 4.2 smn was off the charts (sooo high dps + utility made smn fit in both prog and speed kill metas.. + at times highest personal dps.., guess SE saw too many players jump off smn to blm & rdm, so Smn got overbuffed.., now SE went far nerfing smn)

smn & mnk should both be equally valid in prog and speedkill pfs.., maybe smn a bit more in prog and mnk maybe a bit more in speedkills, but both still close to eachother.. (strong dps, with some utility)

just buffing mnk and a minor / middle sized smn nerf could have done the trick, but smn is getting a major nerf .. and 60 sec CD PB for mnk is a bit OP

We just need a better AOE rotation & qol with pots mnk is ready to be good.

While riddle of earth could be made better, it's still welcome for me, it was a GL saver for me in susano, O2S when -100Gs, and O3S sometimes during spellbound in library phase and mindjacks dark token in last phase, also the temple dungeon final boss when you have to run through orbs, boss will disappear and punch down from above, and during dragon heads agains yojimbo, if timed well you can save it there as well by getting hit by dog on purpose last couple seconds.

agree, with mnk utility, mnk should be spot 3 on the personal dps chart, behind sam and blm..., smn should be close 4th.. (maybe give smn the better aoe dps than mnk, ans mnk the better ST dps.., as a form of balance)

but mnk will now be competing close with sam and blm for the top spots, with that PB window every 60 sec.., and smn just fell way behind, see nin maybe even overtaking smn personal dps-wise

literally smn before 4.2 and mnk just switched places... (smn was too OP before 4.2, but..)

Maybe the next omega fights have such insane heavy movement, that smn will still hold a good position (reason why mnk got help with GL, next fights have the most movement ever when dps-ing??)

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

However, SMN has much more to contribute overall to the team vs MNK,.

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If we compare fastest o1s run monk and fastest smn pov. That show brotherhood is actually stronger than radiant shield and devotion combined. Brotherhood bring 360 raid dps while summoner bring 240 raid dps. On top of that brotherhood gonna get buffed next patch. This is fflogs raid dps calculator.

https://i.imgur.com/LD402BH.jpg

Actually, with the changes, I think MNK is in a good spot. The Perfect Balance's buff is a gift from sky, it'll make Tornado Kick useful and the job more interesting to play. Brotherhood applying to ourselves will quite raise our opener's damages. But, since we were not that far from SAM's DPS, i'm afraid we'll compete with them at this point, and they havn't the team utility we have. So... RiP SAM ?

rip sam, rip blm... and rip smn


no other classes have been fvcked over thru expansions as the casters... (only pld and at one point mch too early 3.x, have had tougher times;... well rdm is a special case)

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can mnks now abuse dragon kick every 60 sec? or better ways to use the new 60 sec burst?

Dps principe : always use everything you can anytime you can :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If we compare fastest o1s run monk and fastest smn pov. That show brotherhood is actually stronger than radiant shield and devotion combined. Brotherhood bring 360 raid dps while summoner bring 240 raid dps. On top of that brotherhood gonna get buffed next patch. This is fflogs raid dps calculator.

https://i.imgur.com/LD402BH.jpg

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While it giving dmg to the monk is a buff, the overall raid contribution of monk with brotherhood sources won't change much

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

can mnks now abuse dragon kick every 60 sec? or better ways to use the new 60 sec burst?

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Why would MNK abuse dragon kick? Best I can see is bootshine spam if not lining a TK up with trick and getting back up to gl3 quickly after.

lol..., ment tornado kick

.. see a mnk nerf happing in 4.25, "the smn effect"..

or others get buffed more

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If we compare fastest o1s run monk and fastest smn pov. That show brotherhood is actually stronger than radiant shield and devotion combined. Brotherhood bring 360 raid dps while summoner bring 240 raid dps. On top of that brotherhood gonna get buffed next patch. This is fflogs raid dps calculator.

https://i.imgur.com/LD402BH.jpg

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Utility comes in more forms than just added DPS. Let's not forget that one of the main utilities people point to regarding RDM is their ability to raise in battle, something that only SMN shares. Also let's not forget that the devs stated that mobility and how effected the job is by raid mechanics is a calculating factor regarding how much damage a job should do. Since SMN is able to continue putting out damage though their many DOTs and with their pet, they are one of the least impacted jobs when it comes to mechanics, and the most mobile job behind bard and machinist. A SMN really out to be putting out damage near the same level as RDM, but puts out much higher.

It sucks when the job you enjoy gets a power reduction, but honestly, sometimes a job is legitimately too powerful when all things are considered, and the devs literally can't just make every other job stronger, else even recent raid encounters will be laughably easy, so sometimes the offending job needs to be brought down in the name of balance. SMN isn't alone in this situation, NIN and DRG probably put out more damage than they should as well.