PvP AFK

They should only give EXP for the team that wins.

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Originally Posted by Aeeninwen_Taldel

They should only give EXP for the team that wins.

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That would create an entirely different problem as 2nd and 3rd place would be inspired to always team up against 1st place. Active sabotaging would take place, and for the people that already lack fighting spirit, you'll have people giving up or dropping matches the moment they think it's impossible to come back or recover.

It's unfortunate, but the only way to really bring integrity back into PvP is to remove the XP reward entirely. Things were much better - even with the supposedly "worse" PvP system we had before - when no XP was given. We played to win, and we enjoyed it. We didn't care about XP. We got it in all the other content the game had to offer and it was a non issue.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

I just want to say a couple things not stricly related to the point of the thread. My experience with PvP began with stormblood and ended with the exp nerf. I started really getting into it, trying classes, practising rotations, spending time at the wolves den dueling, doing the priest quest. I tried different strategies, spawn camping, far crystal hunting, grouping up, it was a lot of fun by the way. In the end, I started becoming a good PvP player. Extremes were out, and if I was not playing as my main DRK I used to run PvP all the time. Then they nerfed EXP, and I had to completely abandon it. Experience is important to me, since I have a lot of low level classes and i'm looking for one that's really appealing apart from DRK. The exp nerf was the worst thing to happen since i restarted playing, because it forced me to choose between fun->efficient. Since I play with other friends and we run a lot of PvE, I had to choose efficient and run braindead PotDs forever

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I just read this, and I'm sorry to say but if the XP really was the deciding factor for your enjoyment of PvP, it really puts your "fun" in a questionable perspective.

If EXP were removed, a good percent would drop it, and even more when they get the glams. I know I would.

2nd and 3rd exp is already nerfed. Leave it at that.

Vote to kick option?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

It's unfortunate, but the only way to really bring integrity back into PvP is to remove the XP reward entirely. Things were much better - even with the supposedly "worse" PvP system we had before - when no XP was given. We played to win, and we enjoyed it. We didn't care about XP. We got it in all the other content the game had to offer and it was a non issue.

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I really can't agree. I was grinding Garo gear before XP was added and it wasn't noticeably different. The biggest change for me wasn't the addition of XP, but switching GCs to one that generally has its act together. Since going to Maelstrom, I've won about 40% of my matches and when I don't win I'm in second, often a close second. I've been in third maybe one time since switching. In contrast, when I was on Twin Adders without Freelancer enabled, I was winning only around 20% of the time and routinely coming in third place. When I turned on Freelancer and got put on Flames around 90% of the time, it was a similar experience. On Aether, whatever the reason, Maelstrom just wins more than the other two. Prior to switching, both pre- and post-XP, Adders and Flames were both an experience in frustration and futility. My teams were noticeably less likely to make themselves useful and would often blow even large early leads with sloppy play and wasting their time doing stupid stuff. Even nerfing the losers' XP didn't change this. I see little reason to think removing XP entirely would somehow magically fix the problem, which existed long before XP in PVP did.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

If EXP were removed, a good percent would drop it, and even more when they get the glams. I know I would.

2nd and 3rd exp is already nerfed. Leave it at that.

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It would be disappointing, but I would be fine with it as I only use PvP as a means to get easy tomes just like in HW.

I've said it over and over, but thanks to Frontline Freelancer (that is, GC Restrictions finally removed, but overshadowed by the Garo event), GCs really don't matter at all anymore. I'm not going to somehow play better or worse just because I'm in Maelstrom now. And if in a premade with friends, we're not going to play better or worse if we're all put in the Adders or Flames. There is no substitute for skilled play. There is nothing more fun than skilled play. But unfortunately, as long as SE won't do something about the bigger issues and keeps applying band-aid fixes to the problem, most players aren't going to bother getting better if they get a fat participation award.

And even if there's a sudden decline in participation, at LEAST those who remain you know are there truly for the sake of competition and active enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I've said it over and over, but thanks to Frontline Freelancer (that is, GC Restrictions finally removed, but overshadowed by the Garo event), GCs really don't matter at all anymore. I'm not going to somehow play better or worse just because I'm in Maelstrom now. And if in a premade with friends, we're not going to play better or worse if we're all put in the Adders or Flames. There is no substitute for skilled play. There is nothing more fun than skilled play. But unfortunately, as long as SE won't do something about the bigger issues and keeps applying band-aid fixes to the problem, most players aren't going to bother getting better if they get a fat participation award.

And even if there's a sudden decline in participation, at LEAST those who remain you know are there truly for the sake of competition and active enjoyment.

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Freelancer isn't on by default, despite what some people claim. Therefore it's reasonable to think that GC still matters to some extent, though given the relatively low penalty for switching, it probably doesn't matter as much as faction might in games like WoW or whatever. You really can't argue with a 40 match win rate spanning months and a 40 match win rate spanning a couple of weeks that are so drastically different. Like you said, I'm not going to somehow play better or worse just because I'm on Maelstrom now, so what accounts for the drastic increase in win rate immediately following joining Maelstrom and turning off Freelancer? It's worth noting that Freelancer dumped me on Maelstrom a whopping one time when I was part of Adders, so it seems Maelstrom rarely needs to pull from the Freelancer pool to fill its teams.

If you really want to ensure people are there for the sake of competition and enjoyment, then remove all rewards, even Wolf Marks, from PVP. After all, until you do that there's always a chance that someone could be there seeking only to gain something from winning. :rolleyes:

Nice try, but wolf marks have been pretty useless for the longest time.

How did I have a full set of Aiming Garo gear on day one of 3.5? Because there was nothing else to spend the 20K wolf marks I already had on.
How did I get the Nue Togi (the new Aiming body added in 4.0) right away during early access? Capped wolf marks and nothing else to spend it on.

Did I grind for those marks? Nope. I just played. And enjoyed PvP. I'm probably capped again right now and don't even realize it, both because I'm not doing it JUST for wolf marks or tomes, and because I actively like PvP.

Well before Garo/Stormblood, PvP already had an active, but small playerbase. AFKing was VERY minimal if it even happened at all (because who wants to do nothing and get kicked when you waited so long to get in), wolf marks weren't awarded in nearly as high amounts, tomes were available, yes, but almost every other PvE instance awarded more anyways, and the larger reason anyone played PvP content was because they actually liked PvP. Most players only actively hunt when there's a new incentive to be gained from it, but take that away, and people who love hunts will still be hunting. PvP would be no different, and we need to stop fearmongering the idea that it will die without XP awards.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Nice try, but wolf marks have been pretty useless for the longest time.

How did I have a full set of Aiming Garo gear on day one of 3.5? Because there was nothing else to spend the 20K wolf marks I already had on.
How did I get the Nue Togi (the new Aiming body added in 4.0) right away during early access? Capped wolf marks and nothing else to spend it on.

Did I grind for those marks? Nope. I just played. And enjoyed PvP. I'm probably capped again right now and don't even realize it, both because I'm not doing it JUST for wolf marks or tomes, and because I actively like PvP.

Well before Garo/Stormblood, PvP already had an active, but small playerbase. AFKing was VERY minimal if it even happened at all (because who wants to do nothing and get kicked when you waited so long to get in), wolf marks weren't awarded in nearly as high amounts, tomes were available, yes, but almost every other PvE instance awarded more anyways, and the larger reason anyone played PvP content was because they actually liked PvP. Most players only actively hunt when there's a new incentive to be gained from it, but take that away, and people who love hunts will still be hunting. PvP would be no different, and we need to stop fearmongering the idea that it will die without XP awards.

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*Wolf Marks have been pretty useless for the longest time to people who have already PVP'd so much that they bought everything they can buy (ie the people who already got the reward)

So no, even Wolf Marks have to go. After all, otherwise someone might just be there for glamour purposes.

People seem to pretty consistently state that before the Garo event PVP was basically dead, which suggests that rewards in some form, whether they be glamour or XP or whatever, are largely responsible for PVP having functional queues.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

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Weird, I had a similar experience, but instead of Maelstrom, it was Adders that I tend to see win the most. Flames never have the chance. I am part of the immortal flames, but I rather queue up as freelancer, because I've yet to win with a team on immortal flames. I have won about 70% on Twin adders, and 30% on Maelstrom.

PvP was "dead" for all the people that refused to try it, usually under word-of-mouth falsehoods and general dissuasion (i.e. "lol there's PvP in this game?", "PvP is full of toxic elitist jerks", "there's too many buttons", etc.). I played and enjoyed it with MANY people well before Garo.

You also fail to realize Wolf Marks are only easier to cap now that you get 1000/500/250 per win, as opposed to the much lower amounts given before. And "for glamour purposes" is a flat argument to make as - again, before when you REALLY had to PvP a lot to afford items - few people who simply wanted a glamour item were going to stick around long enough to farm up 12,500 wolf marks for a body piece (as opposed to the now 4000 they cost. That's 4 first place wins. 2 if you do Frontline Roulettes). Not to mention, if they get rid of it, it's hardly a loss. Non-PvPers obviously won't miss it, and long-time PvPers just let them pile up. PvP gear often came far and few between anyways. Before 3.5, the last time there was any new gear was in 3.25. If you want to try and argue the point of "get rid of ALL rewards then!", use a stronger argument than Wolf Marks.

And lastly, don't try to tell me of all people that the rewards are the reason for functional queues. Those of us who've been doing it for a long time, those of us who knew that GC imbalances were a large reason for lengthy queues, know that it was Frontline Freelancer - GC restriction bypass - that improved the queues. . . like we said it would for 2 years. If out of 72 people in queue, 40 were Mael, 20 were Flames, and 12 were Adders, you weren't getting a match any time soon. Now that it doesn't matter which GC you belong to, as long as 72 people queue (hell, even if just 24 queue), you're in.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

PvP was "dead" for all the people that refused to try it, usually under word-of-mouth falsehoods and general dissuasion (i.e. "lol there's PvP in this game?", "PvP is full of toxic elitist jerks", "there's too many buttons", etc.). I played and enjoyed it with MANY people well before Garo.

You also fail to realize Wolf Marks are only easier to cap now that you get 1000/500/250 per win, as opposed to the much lower amounts given before. And "for glamour purposes" is a flat argument to make as - again, before when you REALLY had to PvP a lot to afford items - few people who simply wanted a glamour item were going to stick around long enough to farm up 12,500 wolf marks for a body piece (as opposed to the now 4000 they cost. That's 4 first place wins. 2 if you do Frontline Roulettes). Not to mention, if they get rid of it, it's hardly a loss. Non-PvPers obviously won't miss it, and long-time PvPers just let them pile up. PvP gear often came far and few between anyways. Before 3.5, the last time there was any new gear was in 3.25. If you want to try and argue the point of "get rid of ALL rewards then!", use a stronger argument than Wolf Marks.

And lastly, don't try to tell me of all people that the rewards are the reason for functional queues. Those of us who've been doing it for a long time, those of us who knew that GC imbalances were a large reason for lengthy queues, know that it was Frontline Freelancer - GC restriction bypass - that improved the queues. . . like we said it would for 2 years. If out of 72 people in queue, 40 were Mael, 20 were Flames, and 12 were Adders, you weren't getting a match any time soon. Now that it doesn't matter which GC you belong to, as long as 72 people queue (hell, even if just 24 queue), you're in.

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I was hardly the one focusing on Wolf Marks. That was you, who seemed to balk at the suggestion of actually removing all rewards, as opposed to just XP. I only named them to emphasize that when I said all, I meant all. No Frontline roulette, no tomestones, no XP, no Wolf Marks, ranked Feast rewards, no nothing. Let PVP live or die solely on its merits as intrinsically enjoyable repetitive content fueled by a supposedly passionate following.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

People seem to pretty consistently state that before the Garo event PVP was basically dead, which suggests that rewards in some form, whether they be glamour or XP or whatever, are largely responsible for PVP having functional queues.

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I'll probably sound redundant but most people ignore how much GC restriction hurt pvp's queue time, this was the thing that players asked for its removal the most over the past years for a good reason. They only removed it because they knew that garo event would have been impossible with GC restrictions, or at least with worse queue outside of actives hours.

People seem to forgot also 2 other moments that lead to an influx of lots of new players: before 3.1, and after shatter got released. We had decent queue times back then at least during active hours, thx to the amount of new players that came. But when they added new content, people ofc changed their priorities, but pvp could have survived even with only 24m match if there wasn't GC restriction that prevented any casual participation back then.

SO yeah, just saying that at those times, PvP stayed alive for a few month without any new reward added, but the classic tomestones. GC restriction was the worst thing that ever happened to PvP until now. I started PvP at the beginning of 3.0 and had my fair share of FL before garo event, enough to be able to tell what wasn't working in PvP back then, and I can tell it wasn't only the lack of players: this is basically a meme.

PS:
Freelancer IS active by default since 4.0, it's written on patchnotes:

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The Duty Finder has been adjusted as follows:

The Raid Finder interface has been combined with the Duty Finder interface.

The Frontline Freelancer option under Duty Finder Settings has been enabled by default.

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Also, premades, even if it's 2 people, have freelancer enabled and cannot be disabled, it's impossible for them to choose any GC. Saying that win/loose is because of GC is irrelevant since garo and even more since SB.

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Originally Posted by Shut

PS:
Freelancer IS active by default since 4.0,

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My freelancer was off by default. Unless its only on by default for people who joined the game after the 4.0 launch. Hell I never even knew of the function.

Just every time I went into pvp solo I was an Adder, if I went in with a party I would wind up somewhere.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

My freelancer was off by default.

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Mine was and still is as well. Only my Join Party in Progress was active.

Anyway, long time PvPer and 40% win rate as an Adder. Honestly, it's about who you get on your team that determines if you win or not nowadays. I can tell that Aether Maelstrom are the most popular among premades and old skilled PvPers, so that's the reason why they seem to win a lot. I've been coming in second a lot in the past week, but overall that's the position I've least been in since I played on that character.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

My freelancer was off by default. Unless its only on by default for people who joined the game after the 4.0 launch. Hell I never even knew of the function.

Just every time I went into pvp solo I was an Adder, if I went in with a party I would wind up somewhere.

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And mine was on by default when I queud the first day of SB for FL. I cannot say it's because I was active before since it would turn off by itself if you log off or on another condition iirc.
Can't tell if there's any exception/bug, but it's intended by SE to be set on by default.

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Originally Posted by Shut

PS:
Freelancer IS active by default since 4.0, it's written on patchnotes:


Also, premades, even if it's 2 people, have freelancer enabled and cannot be disabled, it's impossible for them to choose any GC. Saying that win/loose is because of GC is irrelevant since garo and even more since SB.

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This is a really weak "on by default" then. My alt on Sargatanas which unlocked PVP prior to SB and that, until last night, I hadn't logged on to since SB, did not have freelancer on, likely because the game saves your preference. This means only people who unlock PVP after 4.0 will truly have it on by default. Consequently, there's little reason to expect GCs to truly be indistinguishable from one another in terms of average performance, as they will largely retain their unique memberships at least for the foreseeable future.

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Originally Posted by Rilasha

Mine was and still is as well. Only my Join Party in Progress was active.

Anyway, long time PvPer and 40% win rate as an Adder. Honestly, it's about who you get on your team that determines if you win or not nowadays. I can tell that Aether Maelstrom are the most popular among premades and old skilled PvPers, so that's the reason why they seem to win a lot. I've been coming in second a lot in the past week, but overall that's the position I've least been in since I played on that character.

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Yeah, absolutely, which is what I keep trying to tell people who insist wins and losses are a reflection of personal skill. In a 72 person battle, the combined contributions of the other 71 far outweigh your own and while it does help to be better rather than worse, even the best PVPer in the world probably couldn't single-handedly carry the day except perhaps by providing leadership and direction in /alliance, should people choose to follow their instructions.

If Aether Maelstrom really has a reputation for winning, that would be a self-reinforcing influence that would actually cause something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, as more experienced and skilled PVPers would be more likely to a) switch to Maelstrom and b) turn off Freelancer, which in turn reduces the number of Freelancers on the Maelstrom and prevents the skills of all PVP participants from truly averaging out across the GCs. The only way to really achieve that is to force everyone to use Freelancer at all times. Certainly I abandoned my beloved Adders and joined the Maelstrom, then turned off Freelancer, because I was done dealing with Flames and Adders shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

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Most of those that have been waiting for this change and were aware of it for a long time had turned it on, and that's enough to split skills level amongst all GC, at least on Chaos. And anyway, if it is enabled by default for any new player since SB, it is at least relevant to say that the population of new players is split amongst GC. But leaving aside personnal cases, premades can't anymore queue for a specifique GC since 3.55a, no matter if it's 2 or 8 people, and a lot of pvpers queue with friends. I've done lots of premade before and after patch, and anyone who PvP'd a lot could now if someone in another camp was in pre or not. I stay on my point: since at least 3.55a, GC cannot be a factor of win/loss as it used to be. But yeah, the only thing that matter now is, are you with or against them.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I was hardly the one focusing on Wolf Marks. That was you, who seemed to balk at the suggestion of actually removing all rewards, as opposed to just XP. I only named them to emphasize that when I said all, I meant all. No Frontline roulette, no tomestones, no XP, no Wolf Marks, ranked Feast rewards, no nothing. Let PVP live or die solely on its merits as intrinsically enjoyable repetitive content fueled by a supposedly passionate following.

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Okay, let's play that card.

Do the same thing for Expert roulette and watch it die. Why? Because that's entirely WHY people run Expert roulette. Sure, there's someone out there that loves dungeons just that much, but then they could just queue for their favorite ones over and over, regardless of any bonuses. The difference here is that where PvP gives tomes, Expert and plenty of other PvE content gives more. So what WAS an active PvPer doing it for? Not wolf marks. You were capped. Not XP, there was none to get back then. Frontline Roulette? Everyone was playing Shatter anyways. Until Wonderous Tails, you were getting a Shatter match no matter what. Ranked Feast rewards? Hey guess what the prize was every other season? THE SAME THING. And people would still compete. Tomes? It'd take several matches to equal one roulette. If you wanted tomes THAT BAD, you weren't gonna PvP for them. Nice bonus to have - for an endgame activity - but hardly the big draw.

Thing is, you're trying to take it to the extreme of removing all rewards. Few people afked for tomes, especially when there were better options. Or is that common behavior in dungeons and raids? I've pinpointed the fact that afking and leeching wasn't anywhere near as big a problem until XP was being given. And even then, it's STILL not the best source. There's no need to go to extremes, unless of course you're prepared to see it applied across the board.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Remove EXP all together from PvP and watch em drop out or lower the EXP so much that it is no longer worth using as a leveling method.

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So.... Kill the pvp queues? way to go.

I don't know why it's required to harshly punish those that enjoy PVP, or at the very least, work at it, for a subset of leechers.

Really we need to collectively take it upon ourselves to remove them at every chance we can. I can understand being furious at being stuck with 5 in one party sitting on spawn, but alert your alliance. Name names. They are breaking ToS.

And for goodness sake report them.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

So.... Kill the pvp queues? way to go.

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Or we can keep the EXP till everyone who has leveled is done and kill the pvp queues after they reap the rewards, way to go.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Or we can keep the EXP till everyone who has leveled is done and kill the pvp queues after they reap the rewards, way to go.

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That sounds like a plan :D

It's probably too late to remove exp completely from PvP, although it would bring the benefit of more people more willing to switch classes to balance teams in frontlines or 8v8 feast. What would keep people playing PvP then? Fixing wolf marks. They're pretty much useless if you have all the Garo/glamour gear you want from them. Being able to buy consumable things that have a constant demand would be nice such as aetheryte tickets, materia (not PvP specific materia like before, but the stuff we use in PvE), ventures, and such. Heck, maybe go out on a real limb and put stuff like the rare dyes and even fantasia as things you can buy with wolf marks (such items would give wolf marks some real unique value).

There might be some risk that such items might attract more afk/botting, but maybe the solution to that would be to make sure all such items are untradeable versions.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

I haven't played Frontlines in a couple of days. Is this a brand new thing that more people are AFK than playing? Because I'm also on Aether, and a few days ago we were getting maybe 1 out of 24 players per match that were AFK.

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I'm also not seeing the "huge amount of AFK/bot in PvP" that are being claimed. I'm also on Aether. Is this mostly happening during certain times, like peak?

I play mostly off-times, where Adder and more-than-likely, Flames roflstomp Maelstrom. It wouldn't surprise me if peak times held a majority of lazy EXP grinders.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I'm also not seeing the "huge amount of AFK/bot in PvP" that are being claimed. I'm also on Aether. Is this mostly happening during certain times, like peak?

I play mostly off-times, where Adder and more-than-likely, Flames roflstomp Maelstrom. It wouldn't surprise me if peak times held a majority of lazy EXP grinders.

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You can take a look at the score board at the end of the match, some numbers make clearly the difference between a bad player and an afker/botters. You can also watch them running mounted right into the enemy. That happen almost every match. Also, "base guarding" is a good excuse to slack.

It can be hard to tell which one is actually boting during peak hours, bot are programmed to follow your team's move and act "as if" they are playing. Out of peak hours, you can litterally see armies of bots past 3/4AM, that happened a lot to friends of mine, you also have video on youtube that can show you the actual state of botting in PvP. Rara Mira had one of his vid (it got removed, idk why, pehaps editing) when he queue'd with a friend for FL around 4 AM, they were the only 2 players in his team, adn you could actually see them following and attacking Ice/players at sight.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I'm also not seeing the "huge amount of AFK/bot in PvP" that are being claimed. I'm also on Aether. Is this mostly happening during certain times, like peak?

I play mostly off-times, where Adder and more-than-likely, Flames roflstomp Maelstrom. It wouldn't surprise me if peak times held a majority of lazy EXP grinders.

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http://i.imgur.com/FMzYNPM.png

This morning, an entire team of bots or low-effort players auto-running in a straight line until they're killed.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Okay, let's play that card.

Do the same thing for Expert roulette and watch it die. Why? Because that's entirely WHY people run Expert roulette. Sure, there's someone out there that loves dungeons just that much, but then they could just queue for their favorite ones over and over, regardless of any bonuses. The difference here is that where PvP gives tomes, Expert and plenty of other PvE content gives more. So what WAS an active PvPer doing it for? Not wolf marks. You were capped. Not XP, there was none to get back then. Frontline Roulette? Everyone was playing Shatter anyways. Until Wonderous Tails, you were getting a Shatter match no matter what. Ranked Feast rewards? Hey guess what the prize was every other season? THE SAME THING. And people would still compete. Tomes? It'd take several matches to equal one roulette. If you wanted tomes THAT BAD, you weren't gonna PvP for them. Nice bonus to have - for an endgame activity - but hardly the big draw.

Thing is, you're trying to take it to the extreme of removing all rewards. Few people afked for tomes, especially when there were better options. Or is that common behavior in dungeons and raids? I've pinpointed the fact that afking and leeching wasn't anywhere near as big a problem until XP was being given. And even then, it's STILL not the best source. There's no need to go to extremes, unless of course you're prepared to see it applied across the board.

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I'm not really sure why you can't understand that I just provided you with what would be necessary to achieve your goal of making sure the only people who PVP are those people who love it or the thrill of combat or whatever. It's not an extreme. It's a logical extrapolation of your desire. As long as there is a reward, there will be someone there pursuing that reward rather than loving the content. If you want to make sure that isn't the case, you need to remove absolutely all of the rewards. Then the dozen or so of you that just love PVP so much it's all you ever want to do in this game can be happy and alone because nobody else will ever bother you in your BGs. Better make sure it's taken out of WT as well though.

However, the main point was only to highlight how ridiculous it was that you were acting like there was some problem with the idea that people may be doing the content for the reward, rather than out of some deep seated love for PVP. This is an MMORPG and diverse content is a selling point, not a design flaw. Personally, I appreciate a game that encourages me to do many types of content by providing incentives to do so. I may not really like PVP in this game, but I don't hate it either, and making it a viable alternative to Palace of the Dead, which I am totally burned out on, is a welcome change. Removing the XP and forcing me back into Palace to level DPS jobs as a result would not be welcome. Similarly, I wouldn't want to do every single combat class via dungeon spam either, though I still want to level at least somewhat efficiently. That I would PVP for this rather than out of love for PVP is apparently horrifying to you, but I would say it's a really normal part of basically every MMORPG. There's no problem if someone's enjoyment of content and motivation to do so said content is at least partly dependent on the rewards.

I also find it strange that you're equating people who play for a reward with people who AFK. You're being ridiculous in doing so. I'm only PVPing right now for XP. That doesn't mean I don't try to win. It doesn't mean I didn't try to win before they nerfed it. Similarly, most people here who are doing it for a reward are probably trying to win. The issue is a rather small group of players who are content to leech, regardless of the consequences for everyone else. However, rather than doing anything even remotely sensible like punishing them specifically, everyone keeps getting worked into a tizzy and clutching their pearls at the thought of "PVEers in my Frontlines?!?" and coming up with these "brilliant" suggestions to basically purge PVP of anyone who might like a reward, thus punishing people who are trying, but aren't PVPing for the "right" reasons.

This entire exchange has been about you and your silliness.

I have at most seen one person afk in pvp at a time you people all need to calm down. We already know the game can detect when you are afk so why not just make pvp auto kick you for being afk for a certain period of time instead of killing it by removing the reason the vast majority of people bother?

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Its funny how this became a huge problem when the XP was changed so that you need to win to get 100% of the xp and everyone else gets only 70% (which is equal to a win 3 levels ago). Before the change there would be the occasional afk or bot. Moment the xp gets nerfed? Suddenly scores of bots/afks infesting entire teams.

Its like, since they know they are bad they wont get a win and unless their team does really well and manages to hold it then there is no reason for them to try. Understandable considering how terrible win rates are for most people. Before the change when you got equal xp to everyone win or lose you just played to have fun and get xp.

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I don't wonder if that is part of the case. I never saw bots/afkers prior to the xp nerf. now theres more than usual. I don't encounter full teams of them, but I know others are.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

I don't wonder if that is part of the case. I never saw bots/afkers prior to the xp nerf. now theres more than usual. I don't encounter full teams of them, but I know others are.

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Well, many of us warned that this would be the case with the change - it would cause MORE afk/botting with the xp nerf...well, here we are as predicted.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Certainly I abandoned my beloved Adders and joined the Maelstrom, then turned off Freelancer, because I was done dealing with Flames and Adders shenanigans.

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I did the same, except for me it was going back to Maelstrom. I had been Maelstrom for three years but switched to Flames because I wanted to Allied Seal glam gear.

Could not stand being on Flames as their third place loss rate was huge. Plus, even when I changed TO freelancer, I'd get stuck with them.

Switched back a few days ago, turned freelancer off and it's been much more enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

However, the main point was only to highlight how ridiculous it was that you were acting like there was some problem with the idea that people may be doing the content for the reward, rather than out of some deep seated love for PVP. This is an MMORPG and diverse content is a selling point, not a design flaw.

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Yeah, I totally agree. A lot of MMO players do stuff for the rewards. That's just how it works. I don't think this is necessarily a problem. This raid in TERA I used to queue for everyday (Akerno's Inferno), most people were doing it for the loot. However, I did it for fun, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They get what they want. I get what I want.

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Originally Posted by Ayerinn

Well, many of us warned that this would be the case with the change - it would cause MORE afk/botting with the xp nerf...well, here we are as predicted.

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Yeah, they should've just buffed the XP for winning. When will the community learn that nerfing things is not the answer?

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Remove EXP all together from PvP and watch em drop out or lower the EXP so much that it is no longer worth using as a leveling method.

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That would just kill PvP entirely again. Once the Garo event is over that exp will be the only incentive for most people to even bother. I'd rather have a few frustrating matches full of bots and AFKs than no matches at all.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

I have at most seen one person afk in pvp at a time you people all need to calm down. We already know the game can detect when you are afk so why not just make pvp auto kick you for being afk for a certain period of time instead of killing it by removing the reason the vast majority of people bother?

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It does auto kick after 2 minutes of NO activity at all. The problem is people know this so they are simply doing one action every minute so they don't get auto kicked. That is what most people mean when they say people are afk'ing. Players will sit in the same area (typically around the base) and not even attack a small ice that spawns 2 steps away.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

That would just kill PvP entirely again. Once the Garo event is over that exp will be the only incentive for most people to even bother. I'd rather have a few frustrating matches full of bots and AFKs than no matches at all.

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not completely...PoTD didn't exist at this point in HW but my GF and I got 90% of our timegated tomes (for SB, Tomes of Creation coming on Tuesday with Savage Omega) through Frontlines spam :D

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Originally Posted by Alberel

That would just kill PvP entirely again. Once the Garo event is over that exp will be the only incentive for most people to even bother. I'd rather have a few frustrating matches full of bots and AFKs than no matches at all.

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I'd rather have less matches with less bots and afkers than this. There are people that actually like pvp and that don't like seeing other just leeching for exp by botting because "lol pvp" you know?

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Its funny how this became a huge problem when the XP was changed so that you need to win to get 100% of the xp and everyone else gets only 70% (which is equal to a win 3 levels ago). Before the change there would be the occasional afk or bot. Moment the xp gets nerfed? Suddenly scores of bots/afks infesting entire teams.

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It was going to happen sooner or later the moment we had a broken rewarding system, that what happened with feast ranked when people just came in to farm tome and wolf marks. Cheaters also came for ranked rewards because they knew they could exploit the system without going to be punished.

When people started to ask for actions to be taken, lots actually changed their mine from a xp removal to something based on actual participation, SE should have consider this option first before doing their nerf.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

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I'm gonna ask you to stop putting words in my mouth long enough to actually listen to what I'm saying.

You've been going to plenty of extremes to prove hollow points here, and I've refuted much of that with actual facts from experience. You say "I'm only PvPing right now for XP". Okay, but did you before that? Would you still if they remove it? The point I've repeatedly made is that plenty of people did before XP was ever tabled as a reward, and those same people likely will after. And not just for the other rewards either.

Let me clarify that I'm not wholly against having it. It IS a nice option. But it IS being exploited, largely by people who just don't care otherwise. Yes, people play for rewards in MMOs, that's hardly a point to contest. But don't try to paint a picture like people will ONLY PvP for rewards, especially when I've clearly shown and proved that rewards have been quite far and few for PvPers in this game, but we played anyways. Several different examples you tried to use were shot down, and the fact is you attempted to speak where you simply don't know, and got corrected. And this is about my silliness? Right.

If you're trying to win, good. You're not part of the problem. I've got no issue with people who will actively participate in PvP even if just for the reward, and don't try to paint me like I'm some "purist" who only wants people that absolutely love PvP. You can cut that out right here and now. When the scale becomes so unbalanced that the majority of a team simply won't participate to the point that SE has to go trying to lessen the reward, then as someone who was doing it before the reward was even there, I'm totally fine seeing it go. I'll still play and enjoy it. If someone else new discovered they really like it, maybe they'll still play and enjoy it. PvP in this game offered FAR less than it does now, and people still played and enjoyed it. So the idea that removing XP rewards from it will kill it - when it wasn't even there til now - won't kill it for anyone but "I'm only PvPing right now for XP types."

And I'll be cold enough to say they wouldn't be missed.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'm gonna ask you to stop putting words in my mouth long enough to actually listen to what I'm saying.

You've been going to plenty of extremes to prove hollow points here, and I've refuted much of that with actual facts from experience. You say "I'm only PvPing right now for XP". Okay, but did you before that? Would you still if they remove it? The point I've repeatedly made is that plenty of people did before XP was ever tabled as a reward, and those same people likely will after. And not just for the other rewards either.

Let me clarify that I'm not wholly against having it. It IS a nice option. But it IS being exploited, largely by people who just don't care otherwise. Yes, people play for rewards in MMOs, that's hardly a point to contest. But don't try to paint a picture like people will ONLY PvP for rewards, especially when I've clearly shown and proved that rewards have been quite far and few for PvPers in this game, but we played anyways. Several different examples you tried to use were shot down, and the fact is you attempted to speak where you simply don't know, and got corrected. And this is about my silliness? Right.

If you're trying to win, good. You're not part of the problem. I've got no issue with people who will actively participate in PvP even if just for the reward, and don't try to paint me like I'm some "purist" who only wants people that absolutely love PvP. You can cut that out right here and now. When the scale becomes so unbalanced that the majority of a team simply won't participate to the point that SE has to go trying to lessen the reward, then as someone who was doing it before the reward was even there, I'm totally fine seeing it go. I'll still play and enjoy it. If someone else new discovered they really like it, maybe they'll still play and enjoy it. PvP in this game offered FAR less than it does now, and people still played and enjoyed it. So the idea that removing XP rewards from it will kill it - when it wasn't even there til now - won't kill it for anyone but "I'm only PvPing right now for XP types."

And I'll be cold enough to say they wouldn't be missed.

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Again, I haven't gone to any extremes. You were lamenting the inclusion of rewards and the people who PVP'd only for rewards, seemingly even equating those people with the leeches, rather than recognizing the leeches as only a small subset. I told you what would be necessary to get rid of those people. That's it. I don't think PVP should have all of its rewards removed or even any of its rewards removed. I think the people who are the problem should be punished, rather than the people who are after the rewards and actually trying, which is completely in line with how everything else in this game works. I mean, you can say I'm putting words in your mouth, but you're pretty much doubling down on your hostile feelings towards such players even in this very post. Similarly, I never suggested all people only play for rewards. I was saying that if you took away literally all rewards from PVP, you'd probably be left with a population that's too small to sustain the content.

As for me, I PVP'd rarely before for Garo gear, largely because it's supposedly a limited time thing that will go away eventually and some of the glamours are nice enough I may want them later. I have a passing interest in the airship mount from Wolves' Den and may continue working on that after I finish the Garo mount from there simply because I'll be about 15% of the way done and matches are quick, so it's honestly something I could grind out in a weekend if I really wanted to. But other than that, I'd be done and frankly, that stuff has been around for a while and didn't really motivate me to start, so I may very well just continue going without those rewards. XP is the long term reward that will keep me participating for at least a few months and again next expansion. It is the primary motivation for prioritizing that content. Everything else has very limited pull and was never enough to get me to PVP until I was extremely bored and had nothing better to do.

I have yet to see the majority of my team not participate. What I've seen, and what I saw even before XP was added, was the majority of my team participating so poorly that they may as well have not been there.