Cleric Stance

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That falls under clause #2. It's still carrying if they can't do it without your assistance.

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Your posts in this thread are so dumb im convinced you're trolling.

Missing 1/3 hits in ex-roulette is idiotic, there is simply no excuse for why healers have to suffer from constant misses.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Tanks need massive amounts of accuracy because we're forced to be in front of the boss. We have to hit it to do our primary job duty. Healers not so much. Healers are in a weird place right now.

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I agree with you in that it was a stretch but I wanted to give the example since it can stand as a precedent that they piggyback acc on other actions.

As a SCH, it's annoying when you miss a Broil or a Miasma, but on WHM/AST, it's considered a waste of time to dps in Savage due to the fact that their dps abilities are so heavily based in acc. Tanks DO need massive amounts of acc, but I've been acc capped when I used to tank plenty of times. I know other tanks that have no issues being capped and can switch out gear for more anything else vs. Acc. They have the tools to do what they do.

Like you say, healers are in a weird place. We're told that we don't have to dps, yet they train the newbies to do so. They tell us that we don't have to, but the dps checks in place insist on it. We are given low acc with no means to raise it other than to the detriment of our main purpose and yet they expect us to do what?

In Savage, SCH is both a healer and a dps. Our primary job is to provide additional dps. In Gordias, I was required to contribute no less than 200-300 at a minimum. How to do that when I'm missing half my Broils despite eating food? D:

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Originally Posted by Kitano123

Your posts in this thread are so dumb im convinced you're trolling.

Missing 1/3 hits in ex-roulette is idiotic, there is simply no excuse for why healers have to suffer from constant misses.

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Advocating an accuracy increase in cleric stance for QoL's sake is stupid?I guess.

My only opinion is that healer DPS breeds lazy DPS jobs, but I don't see any reason to deny healers the tools they need to carry efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That falls under clause #2. It's still carrying if they can't do it without your assistance.

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It's not carrying, the content was designed around dps checks that required everyone to output as much damage as possible

The healers weren't carrying, they were just doing dps because that's what the content required.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

That actually doesn't fix the problem, i'd rather take Critical Chance to buff my heals too.

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The critical still RNG tho even it's over 700. I prefer put some accuracy and vitality/spell speed.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I think the reason they don't because is because a healer's role in a raid setting is not defined by being able to contribute damage, but rather keeping the party alive. If there's anything to take from the tank changes, tank dps is overall lowered alongside making vit the to-go stat for tanks. When tanks and healers start being able to catch up to DD jobs in dps, it starts to devalue and alleviate the responsbility of DDs; in short, if your raid wipes to a dps check, you want to be holding the DDs accountable, not look to the tanks or healers to pump out extra numbers). It's already a step up from 3.1 since now you can meld acc (at the cost of other stats

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Even then, though, losing Holy's stun utility because it's no longer hitting consistently is damaging my abilities as a healer since mitigation is part of that tool-set.

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Originally Posted by Slappah

It's not carrying, the content was designed around dps checks that required everyone to output as much damage as possible

The healers weren't carrying, they were just doing dps because that's what the content required.

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They had intended for the fights to not account for healer dps, and have said that they had overturned the requirements that it ended up being the case anyway. Regardless that, they've made their stance clear that they don't tune savage content to require healer dps.

I also think it's a bit wrong to compare shield oath to cleric stance for accuracy, the former is needed for their primary function (holding aggro and tanking), which requires the much much higher frontal cap. Your ability to heal is not contingent on accuracy, or cleric stance for that matter.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Regardless that, they've made their stance clear that they don't tune savage content to require healer dps.

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And yet groups couldn't pass it without healer DPS... Hmmm.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I also think it's a bit wrong to compare shield oath to cleric stance for accuracy, the former is needed for their primary function (holding aggro and tanking), which requires the much much higher frontal cap. Your ability to heal is not contingent on accuracy, or cleric stance for that matter.

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Yeah, that was me. Not Slappah. And I was discussing that with someone else. You can either read my comment above in regards to that (I suspect you don't actually read the replies fully) or I'll copy and paste it below again for you.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

I agree with you in that it was a stretch but I wanted to give the example since it can stand as a precedent that they piggyback acc on other actions.

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Other than that, I won't even get into the accuracy of YOUR initial statement since it's a giant post about how if healers get a boosted acc in Cleric Stance, then you can't hold DPS accountable any more. Spoiler, you can always hold them accountable if they can't produce the numbers you need.

We've already discussed why tanks/healers play a part in endgame content and why their dps numbers actually do mean something.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

And yet groups couldn't pass it without healer DPS... Hmmm..

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Which happened because SE believed it's player base claims that it was good enough to tackle very challenging content. These claims were proven false almost immediately as the criteria that SE expected of its players was proven to be too much for the average player, which again proves my point about healer DPS being a crutch to help underperforming DPS meet checks.

In layman's terms, that means that they made the content too hard, since most dpsers aren't capable of pushing the top numbers of their class.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Which happened because SE believed it's player base claims that it was good enough to tackle very challenging content. These claims were proven false almost immediately as the criteria that SE expected of its players was proven to be too much for the average player, which again proves my point about healer DPS being a crutch to help underperforming DPS meet checks.

In layman's terms, that means that they made the content too hard, since most dpsers aren't capable of pushing the top numbers of their class.

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"Very challenging" is not the same as "make dps checks super hard guys". They made Alexander as hard as it was in a deliberate attempt to prolong Gordias Savage's lifetime because of the vacation they took that they were still recovering from.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Like you say, healers are in a weird place. We're told that we don't have to dps, yet they train the newbies to do so. They tell us that we don't have to, but the dps checks in place insist on it. We are given low acc with no means to raise it other than to the detriment of our main purpose and yet they expect us to do what?

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Well, the sources of the issues are non-cohesiveness between class and content design and the fact SCH was not really...corrected...when players started pumping out DPS with it back in ARR. Ability bloat plays into this too, because post-50 skills had the risk of being redundant if they had all been heals (which creates other issues like too much outgoing healing accessible to a healer, which then means everything has to deal more damage to balance that out).

The devs really need to sit down and look at what they want to get out of their healer paradigm, decide on a set of rules for their healing classes (and for once stick to them across all levels of design) and then make necessary changes on WHM, SCH and AST. Cleric Stance is more an accessory to the problem, and I feel it comes partly from the fact SCH is not as penalized as the other two healers. At least to my knowledge the fairy's healing potency is not nerfed the way WHM and AST are in Cleric Stance. Granted, I wouldn't have given SCH access to Cleric Stance in the first place and given it its own special stance with its own set of limitations.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Well, the sources of the issues are non-cohesiveness between class and content design and the fact SCH was not really...corrected...when players started pumping out DPS with it back in ARR. Ability bloat plays into this too, because post-50 skills had the risk of being redundant if they had all been heals (which creates other issues like too much outgoing healing accessible to a healer, which then means everything has to deal more damage to balance that out).

The devs really need to sit down and look at what they want to get out of their healer paradigm, decide on a set of rules for their healing classes (and for once stick to them across all levels of design) and then make necessary changes on WHM, SCH and AST. Cleric Stance is more an accessory to the problem, and I feel it comes partly from the fact SCH is not as penalized as the other two healers. At least to my knowledge the fairy's healing potency is not nerfed the way WHM and AST are in Cleric Stance. Granted, I wouldn't have given SCH access to Cleric Stance in the first place and given it its own special stance with its own set of limitations.

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Not true, other healers can lay down HOTs and go DPS. They also have to spam less skills then scholars do to get the most out of their damage because their skills do more damage literally.

If you nerf Scholar, I would nerf Paladins Clemency to heal 1/4 of what it does now.

Accuracy shouldn't be an issue at all in 4 man content. It absolutely should be a requirement in 8 man content though. I'd say that if your healer is required to dps in raids then it is not a waste to meld acc into your gear. DPS and tanks might find themselves in the position where they're going to have to meld acc into some slots as well. As opposed to buffing cleric stance which would be game breaking, just easing the acc requirements in 4 man content would ease most of the complaints about this. I know I don't like to see Holy miss 4/5 mobs when I'm trying to not only speed up the run, but stun lock the mobs making tank survival easier to manage.

SE is also sending very mixed signals on what they consider a healer's role to be. If healers aren't supposed to dps, then why do so many of their post lvl 50 skills revolve around dealing damage?

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Originally Posted by RhaegarFFXIFenrir

As opposed to buffing cleric stance which would be game breaking

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In standard 210 gear for healers, their accuracy is around 360 (give or take) and that doesn't even cover caster acc (432) needed for Binding Coil of Bahamut. Content that old and yet we aren't even accuracy capped for that. Not even close.

So how would say a 5% (cause I don't believe in 100%) increase be game breaking? :O

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Not true, other healers can lay down HOTs and go DPS. They also have to spam less skills then scholars do to get the most out of their damage because their skills do more damage literally.

If you nerf Scholar, I would nerf Paladins Clemency to heal 1/4 of what it does now.

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WHM DPS'ing is not as mana efficient compared to SCH as we are mainly burst damage, even if we had 100% accuracy the DPS is not sustainable. There is a reason why SCH is the go to healer for DPS.

A 5% increase wouldn't be noticeable, so it'd be a waste to program. In order to be noticeable, it'd need to at least be 20% or so.

Yeah i do quite enjoy casting gravity as astrologian and seeing "miss" flash across my screen for 3 out of the 5 enemies. Got asked during a dungeon why i wasn't helping to DPS, and i simply responded that it was a waste of mana if every other hit is going to miss.

And seeing how this new raid and trial where every 2-3 seconds there seems to be burst damage, it seems as though SE doesn't want healers ever dpsing again.

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

Yeah i do quite enjoy casting gravity as astrologian and seeing "miss" flash across my screen for 3 out of the 5 enemies. Got asked during a dungeon why i wasn't helping to DPS, and i simply responded that it was a waste of mana if every other hit is going to miss.

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This bothers me on WHM too. The only reason I ever even lvled it was to holy spam in roulettes and I can't even really do that anymore. It is kind of unfair to the other DPS and Tanks if Healers were suddenly given a buttload of ACC for free when others have to sacrifice the stats they'd like to stack just to have the requisite ACCt. That being said....something DOES need to be done because right now Healers don't have access to any job specific gear which contains ACC. Healers (esp Scholars) should be able to gear towards dpsing if that's what they are going to be asked to do by their raid team.

You can! Just meld accuracy materia.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You can! Just meld accuracy materia.

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Once again, who would even seriously do that? That's like asking any other person to meld a normally useless stat on their gear for the off times that they use it? Tell any other dps to meld a stat that they would normally pass up and it'll earn you the same response. Laughter. In your face. You've literally added nothing to the conversation about this.

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

Yeah i do quite enjoy casting gravity as astrologian and seeing "miss" flash across my screen for 3 out of the 5 enemies. Got asked during a dungeon why i wasn't helping to DPS, and i simply responded that it was a waste of mana if every other hit is going to miss.

And seeing how this new raid and trial where every 2-3 seconds there seems to be burst damage, it seems as though SE doesn't want healers ever dpsing again.

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The hit rate is still above 85%, the misses are just a lot more constant because we went from a 95% to 85% hit rate so its a lot more noticeable mainly on aoe.

Healers have been melding accuracy to DPS since way back in 2.X times. SE hasn't taken a stance one way or the other concerning healer's DPS, afaik, but they've added slots to meld materia to raid gear. A sensible person would realize that's probably SE's way of saying, 'You want to DPS? Meld materia.' Also... off times they use it? I'm the one laughing here. Everyone and their pet DPS's in all content, at least 75% of the time. That's a damn sight more than 'a little off time'.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Once again, who would even seriously do that? That's like asking any other person to meld a normally useless stat on their gear for the off times that they use it? Tell any other dps to meld a stat that they would normally pass up and it'll earn you the same response. Laughter. In your face. You've literally added nothing to the conversation about this.

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ETA: Pretty much any healer that's serious about progressing through Savage, either in the present or back in the 2.X series, has melded accuracy in order to help push the progression edge. The reason? Because it actually works to push content the DPS are undergeared to actually clear. It was really common practice to meld accuracy, especially on Scholar's, and several statics I heard of forced the scholar to meld accuracy to help meet checks.

Alright, this is absolutely needed. There's no downside to this change in any way. It wouldn't force you to DPS, it would just give great players the means to be better.

Also if any healer melds accuracy to their new raiding gear, they're bad and their opinion on this matter shouldn't be taken seriously. That is literally the worst possible thing you could meld.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Once again, who would even seriously do that? That's like asking any other person to meld a normally useless stat on their gear for the off times that they use it? Tell any other dps to meld a stat that they would normally pass up and it'll earn you the same response. Laughter. In your face. You've literally added nothing to the conversation about this.

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If you look at this thread on the healer forum - there are eight unique posters and five of them have either done accuracy or thinking about doing accuracy. If you ignore the one joke post, that's a 71% response of people in favour of melding Accuracy.

You can add me to that list too, as I will be melding ACC on my pieces and I've done it in the past for raiding on two Zetas.

While the above is a small sample, there are a lot of people who are seriously melding accuracy on the healer gear for one reason or another.

Why are their mechanics where Healers have to DPS if they don't want us to? Why are healers the only class forced into melding one stat?

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Also if any healer melds accuracy to their new raiding gear, they're bad and their opinion on this matter shouldn't be taken seriously. That is literally the worst possible thing you could meld.

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lol

/10char

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Once again, who would even seriously do that? That's like asking any other person to meld a normally useless stat on their gear for the off times that they use it? Tell any other dps to meld a stat that they would normally pass up and it'll earn you the same response. Laughter. In your face. You've literally added nothing to the conversation about this.

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Fact is, my fellow healer on my server melded their gear and crafted gear with accuracy until cap to 100% hit.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

that's a 71% response of people in favour of melding Accuracy.

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The question shouldn't really be "who would seriously do that?", though. It should be "why would we seriously feel forced to do that?" =/

Like has been mentioned, we don't even have enough accuracy for Coil. As in the first Coil tiers. And that's at level 60. There's a reason I as scholar stuck with my level 50 i130 gear for as long as possible. Comparing my Accuracy at level 57, I'd gone down somewhere around 100 in accuracy from level 50 ;_; (Mostly due to my Acc/Crit-melded relic, but...)

In my eyes, it's similar to tanks 'gimping' their ilvl by wearing lower-ilvl pentamelded accessories because they're more effective than the latest tomestone/raid accessories. SE saw fit to 'fix' this by removing the possibility to meld STR/VIT on anything but the first meld slot, and by changing the damage main stat (but pentamelds are still more valid -- you just can't make those anymore).
Except... in the case of healer Accuracy, they 'fixed' it by removing all accuracy from their gear, while the accuracy requirements have kept on rising from what they were at level 50. So, the way I see it, they could have kept the same accuracy/ilvl as they did for lvl50 gear (so lvl 51 i120 would have had the same accuracy as lvl 50 i120, etc). If it had gone up at the same rate as it did, and comparing it to how other stats have gone up, I'd expect the numbers to be around ~15 accuracy per piece (not done the math, though). Would that really be so... game-breaking? When DPS/tank gear have ~30-50 accuracy on their pieces or more? (I really should look up exact numbers and compare them. It'd be interesting to see, actually.)

Same with adding Accuracy to Cleric Stance. Yes, it's more comparable to Sword Oath and other "off-tank" stances in that it's used when you're not fulfilling your main duties (healing/tanking, respectively), but on the other hand it's comparable to tank stances in the sense that they're used when you're in a position of needing more Accuracy than you otherwise would. (I.e. an off tank isn't supposed to be in front of the boss, and thus only needs the same amount of accuracy as melee dps do. A CS healer isn't supposed to heal people, and thus doesn't benefit from the 100% healing accuracy.) Same as adding accuracy to tank stances didn't 'break' the game, because it allowed tanks to stop chasing accuracy all the time, adding an accuracy bonus to CS wouldn't break the game either.

(All in my opinion. YMMV.)

The community has spoken, healers should be stance dancing and DPSing when possible. Even in the Tank threads about the nerf, there were healers supposedly saying they would have more time to DPS cause tanks wont be squishy anymore with their fending jewelry.

Well I'm all for this. Increase their accuracy and let them continue to stand there anyway DPS.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

The question shouldn't really be "who would seriously do that?", though. It should be "why would we seriously feel forced to do that?" =/

Like has been mentioned, we don't even have enough accuracy for Coil. As in the first Coil tiers. And that's at level 60. There's a reason I as scholar stuck with my level 50 i130 gear for as long as possible. Comparing my Accuracy at level 57, I'd gone down somewhere around 100 in accuracy from level 50 ;_; (Mostly due to my Acc/Crit-melded relic, but...)
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Flip it around to a dps perspective, I can't use my i220 because it has no accuracy on it, instead I have either have to swap my gear pieces around or do the same thing as the healer, and meld my pieces that don't have accuracy. The difference is that from the perspective of a DD, their purpose is contingent on being able to hit their targets (such as much as the tanks need to be able to hit their targets in face of a frontal-accuracy requirement, which is much higher than rear/flank). It's not a burden exclusive to healers is my point, and double on the fact that it's technically not required, only there to optimize your performance

Whether or not the content was designed with it in mind (specifically goridas savage), the developer's stance has always been that healer dps is not considered for the checks, and none of their abilities (save for holy and it's stun, but that's not even applicable in raids since most are immune to it) that relate to their role of keeping the party alive is required to hit the enemy.

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Same with adding Accuracy to Cleric Stance. Yes, it's more comparable to Sword Oath and other "off-tank" stances in that it's used when you're not fulfilling your main duties (healing/tanking, respectively), but on the other hand it's comparable to tank stances in the sense that they're used when you're in a position of needing more Accuracy than you otherwise would. (I.e. an off tank isn't supposed to be in front of the boss, and thus only needs the same amount of accuracy as melee dps do. A CS healer isn't supposed to heal people, and thus doesn't benefit from the 100% healing accuracy.) Same as adding accuracy to tank stances didn't 'break' the game, because it allowed tanks to stop chasing accuracy all the time, adding an accuracy bonus to CS wouldn't break the game either.

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The primary duty of a tank is still to be there to tank, and dpsing being the secondary. Much like the healer's primary duty is keeping the party alive, and dpsing is secondary. Their primary function in a party does not change because of the stance.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Flip it around to a dps perspective, I can't use my i220 because it has no accuracy on it, instead I have either have to swap my gear pieces around or do the same thing as the healer, and meld my pieces that don't have accuracy.

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That is true, and I'm not arguing that part at all. But even with the tiny amount of Accuracy provided on all the healer gear at level 50, it didn't reach the Accuracy needed for casters in coil. Hence Accuracy-melded relics. Now, the Accuracy caps are even higher than they were back then, and healers are stuck at less accuracy than they had at 50. Yes, melds are possible. Melds have always been possible by using crafted gear instead of raid/tomestone. It's the same for the dps in your perspective -- you could use the i220 and just meld accuracy to it. Unless it's a belt or an accessory, that'd give you a whooping +24 accuracy on the piece if you used two grade V materia. That's awesome, no? =D
Putting the salty sarcasm aside... No, healers don't need to do DPS. But at the same time, they're expected to. If they don't DPS, they tend to be called subpar, or scrub, or bad. Likewise, if a DPS doesn't fully meet the Accuracy cap, they'll miss now and then. They'll do less DPS, but they'll still do DPS. It's not like they're going to have a 0% hit rate. ...Alright, I failed to put the sarcasm aside completely. I admit that. But while yes, DPS classes might have to juggle their gear upgrades around in order to meet accuracy caps (and others might have accuracy bloat *cough2.xBLMcough*), and this is the primary focus for their role, imagine how it'd feel if things like Mage's Ballad or Goad or similar support skills (which is a secondary focus for those jobs that have support skills) had a chance of missing, and Accuracy had no effect on this. Would people be happy about that?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The primary duty of a tank is still to be there to tank, and dpsing being the secondary. Much like the healer's primary duty is keeping the party alive, and dpsing is secondary. Their primary function in a party does not change because of the stance.

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Which... is pretty much what I said. Tanks need higher Accuracy when standing in front of the enemy. Which they do while MTing. This is why tank stances were given an Accuracy bonus, to account for the need to meet a higher Accuracy cap. Another way they could have done this is to put higher Accuracy scores on tank gear, and put an Accuracy penalty on the off-tank stance (or in DRK's case, a penalty for being without tank stance).
Tanks' primary task = need more Accuracy.
Tanks' secondary task = need less Accuracy.

Healers' primary task = need less Accuracy (other than Holy's stun effect and Repose, all CC spells have 100% hit rate, afaik. And I'm not certain about Repose).
Healers' secondary task = need more Accuracy.

In that aspect, Cleric Stance (used for Healers' secondary task, thus needing more Accuracy) is comparable to Tank stance (used for Tanks' main task, thus needing more Accuracy). It's not comparable in the sense of fulfilling the role's main task.

I never said the primary task changed just depending on the stance. But the purpose of the stance dancing (for both healers and tanks) is to make them more effective for the task (be it primary or secondary) they're performing at the time. (That Off-tank Stance tanks are more effective at MTing than Cleric Stance healers are at healing is a minor issue and not worth arguing over.)

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Putting the salty sarcasm aside... No, healers don't need to do DPS. But at the same time, they're expected to. If they don't DPS, they tend to be called subpar, or scrub, or bad. Likewise, if a DPS doesn't fully meet the Accuracy cap, they'll miss now and then. They'll do less DPS, but they'll still do DPS.

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This is more of a community thing rather than the game is designed (to some extent). There just isn't a lot of constant incoming damage toward tanks in general, outside of tank checks/busters, so you have those times where a healer can stand idily and do nothing. It also doesn't help that Yoshida insists that dps checks, including savage, are designed without healer dps in mind and isn't required (which is another can of worms that should be saved for another discussion).


A dps should strive to meet the accuracy caps no matter what, them missing an attack is a lot more detrimental than it is to a healer since it means interrupted combos and no buff refreshes. If a DPS isn't performing their role effectively, it's pretty bad (although at the same time, there isn't a lot to hold dps accountable for this, which is a second can of worms)

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

I never said the primary task changed just depending on the stance. But the purpose of the stance dancing (for both healers and tanks) is to make them more effective for the task (be it primary or secondary) they're performing at the time. (That Off-tank Stance tanks are more effective at MTing than Cleric Stance healers are at healing is a minor issue and not worth arguing over.)

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This is precisely my point; its because that they aren't primary tasks that I wouldnt draw a direct comparison to tank stances having accuracy vs cleric stance having accuracy, epseiscally when their secondary role is already being fufilled by four DDs (while the tank and healing roles have no alternative other than the two that are present). If its understandable, I feel that healer (and tank) dps should not be highly valued, because that ends up taking away the value (and responsbility) of the DDs, and it gets bad to the point that when it comes to progression, the responsibility for wiping to a enrage was, more often than not, not on the dps, but the healers/tanks (which can is also more of a community thing, but I digress)

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Originally Posted by Slappah

The healers weren't carrying, they were just doing dps because that's what the content required.

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Only because everyone was undergeared at the beginning (no full ilevel 200)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

This is more of a community thing rather than the game is designed (to some extent).

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Very true. Though afaik, the addition of Accuracy on level 50 healer gear was based on community expectations that healers should push some DPS during raids. With this not exactly having changed, I don't see why it should be an argument against Accuracy being reinstated to end-game gear ^^; Or, as this thread suggests, added in the form of a bonus to CS (though with no Acc on gear, it'd be pretty much a static number and do little to compensate as Acc caps go higher and higehr).

There just isn't a lot of constant incoming damage toward tanks in general, outside of tank checks/busters, so you have those times where a healer can stand idily and do nothing. It also doesn't help that Yoshida insists that dps checks, including savage, are designed without healer dps in mind and isn't required (which is another can of worms that should be saved for another discussion).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

This is precisely my point; its because that they aren't primary tasks that I wouldnt draw a direct comparison to tank stances having accuracy vs cleric stance having accuracy

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Yes, Accuracy is more important to tanks than it is to DPSing healers (since tanks missing too much = murder on the dancefloor). I'm not arguing that, especially having been there myself as a tank. But lacking accuracy meeting even a halved Acc cap makes it sometimes feel about as worth switching to CS to throw off some damage as it does participating in the jumbo cactpot in the hopes of winning the #1 prize ^^;

Like I've said, even with the bonuses to 50-gear, healers didn't reach the Acc caps (unless prioritizing Acc weapons, which don't exist today, or Acc-melding their relic -- and I'm not sure we did even then o.o). So adding small bonus Accuracy to 60-gear wouldn't do that either. It'd just remove that whole sense of gambling with your party's lives in order to MAYBE get a few offensive spells in. I mean, some people may enjoy that feeling, but... I don't ^^;

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A 5% increase wouldn't be noticeable, so it'd be a waste to program. In order to be noticeable, it'd need to at least be 20% or so.

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5% as in going from 90% to 95% and not 5% extra rating. I have this memory of Squenix saying 5% when they said they would be implementing an accuracy increase on tank stances, but I'm not sure if I'm remembering right.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

5% as in going from 90% to 95% and not 5% extra rating. I have this memory of Squenix saying 5% when they said they would be implementing an accuracy increase on tank stances, but I'm not sure if I'm remembering right.

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Yeah, it's 5% in tank stance.

Which is still kind of silly, because if you avoid parry (like practically all tanks do), you're going to get accuracy coming out of your butt, and have no use for the +5%.

But I digress.

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Originally Posted by RhaegarFFXIFenrir

SE is also sending very mixed signals on what they consider a healer's role to be. If healers aren't supposed to dps, then why do so many of their post lvl 50 skills revolve around dealing damage?

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Because clearly I enjoy attacking LV60 mobs in my dailies and solo quests with only Stone 2!

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

The question shouldn't really be "who would seriously do that?", though. It should be "why would we seriously feel forced to do that?" =/

Like has been mentioned, we don't even have enough accuracy for Coil. As in the first Coil tiers. And that's at level 60. There's a reason I as scholar stuck with my level 50 i130 gear for as long as possible. Comparing my Accuracy at level 57, I'd gone down somewhere around 100 in accuracy from level 50 ;_; (Mostly due to my Acc/Crit-melded relic, but...)

In my eyes, it's similar to tanks 'gimping' their ilvl by wearing lower-ilvl pentamelded accessories because they're more effective than the latest tomestone/raid accessories. SE saw fit to 'fix' this by removing the possibility to meld STR/VIT on anything but the first meld slot, and by changing the damage main stat (but pentamelds are still more valid -- you just can't make those anymore).
Except... in the case of healer Accuracy, they 'fixed' it by removing all accuracy from their gear, while the accuracy requirements have kept on rising from what they were at level 50. So, the way I see it, they could have kept the same accuracy/ilvl as they did for lvl50 gear (so lvl 51 i120 would have had the same accuracy as lvl 50 i120, etc). If it had gone up at the same rate as it did, and comparing it to how other stats have gone up, I'd expect the numbers to be around ~15 accuracy per piece (not done the math, though). Would that really be so... game-breaking? When DPS/tank gear have ~30-50 accuracy on their pieces or more? (I really should look up exact numbers and compare them. It'd be interesting to see, actually.)

Same with adding Accuracy to Cleric Stance. Yes, it's more comparable to Sword Oath and other "off-tank" stances in that it's used when you're not fulfilling your main duties (healing/tanking, respectively), but on the other hand it's comparable to tank stances in the sense that they're used when you're in a position of needing more Accuracy than you otherwise would. (I.e. an off tank isn't supposed to be in front of the boss, and thus only needs the same amount of accuracy as melee dps do. A CS healer isn't supposed to heal people, and thus doesn't benefit from the 100% healing accuracy.) Same as adding accuracy to tank stances didn't 'break' the game, because it allowed tanks to stop chasing accuracy all the time, adding an accuracy bonus to CS wouldn't break the game either.

(All in my opinion. YMMV.)

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Allow me to offer a different perspective to the accuracy on gear paradigm.

In 2.2 Healers began to see Accuracy added to their gear. The common consensus was this "bonus" accuracy was to assist healer's in DPSing on the smaller dungeons. I know I'm just re-iterating your thoughts ATM because you mention that yourself in your post. However, I feel this is relevant for the next point.

In 3.2, Tome / Raid Gear are introduced with slots of Materia. If you consider this from a healer's perspective, you could say that instead of S-E forcing Accuracy onto every piece of gear 3.2 and onward like they did the in the 2.X series, they have now given the players the choice to choose the "bonus" stat. The +4-6 Accuracy each gear gave you in the 2.2+ era was basically equal to a T2 or T3 accuracy Materia.

Now S-E has given the players the choice of which stat they would like as a "bonus". From a long term perspective, this is sensible because healer's who dislike DPSing still have a choices that are applicable to them and more DPS-inclined healers can choose to slot more accuracy as they see fit. Basically a win across the board if you think of it from that perspective.

Basically, what I'm saying is we never lost the "accuracy bonus" given to our equipment in 2.2+. Instead, in 3.2+ we were given the open to pick a "bonus stat" and Accuracy just happens to be one of those choices.

With that being said, I agree with your assessment that the +15 should be approximately what you should be aiming for per piece. And yes, S-E did increase the accuracy curve faster in this patch cycle than the previous. In the end, I'm going to meld accuracy and not really expect any assistance from S-E in the accuracy matter until they state it directly though an accuracy bonus to Cleric Stance would be an unexpected buff that I would not complain about.

It's funny though, I only made that post you commented on because it's clear that accuracy is a serious meld choice for healers.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Because clearly I enjoy attacking LV60 mobs in my dailies and solo quests with only Stone 2!

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Better question then. Why do Healers have so many damage spells when people seem to think they aren't meant to do damage and "Healers only heal."?

If the answer is to do open world stuff then why do we need so many? Why not just give us one spell before Heavensward and another after to do open world stuff and actually give us spells that help us do "our actual job" as people like to put it.

I highly doubt we got given so many skills and they expected us not to use them in 99% of the game.