XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I increase my STR and VIT in sync, not separately. So as my HP pool goes up so does my mitigation. There's no downside to this.

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What exactly does that have to do with anything he said? You still can't increase your str enough to overcome the mitigation differences between the classes... and if you did you wouldn't have the HP to take the hits... See the downside?

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Originally Posted by Terabyt3

except that damage output and parry mitigation are controlled by STR "walls". Unless your STR is a certain ammount you will not do more dmg.

Example you are at 200 STR. The next wall is 220.

If you put 19 points in str nothing will happen.

Put 1 more in and you reach that break point. your %parry increases as does your dmg output.


Even with what you are saying your MAIN way of mitigationg damage is self heals. Which is static and does not vary.

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So what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Derza

What exactly does that have to do with anything he said? You still can't increase your str enough to overcome the mitigation differences between the classes... and if you did you wouldn't have the HP to take the hits... See the downside?

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No. You raise your HP + raise you EHP. Which is more than raising just your HP by stacking VIT and not including mitigation on top of it.

You're talking to someone who Tanks Caduceus with 6700 HP. It's not rocket science. If I'm sitting at near full health at the turn of 3 stacks, then something must be going right. I'm getting to the point where I'm outliving PLDs.

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Originally Posted by Terabyt3

I hadn't worked it out but that was the gist I was getting at.

Below a certain incoming DPS Warrior is better.
As it goes above that certain incoming DPS PLD starts pulling away and becomes better.

ATM coils and titan are way above that certain incoming DPS.


Titan is entirely possible as a WAR I've tanked it before. But it does require more effort from the healers.

Derza can you gimme a link to the calculations for the threshold of incoming dps and where the boundary is?

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That would be good information. So yeah I'm interested in hearing that to. Would take out a lot of guess work.

I'm just not feeling you. While I'm sure people who haven't had my experiences may agree with your theorycrafting and hypothetical situations, I go and play and have a grand time and my healers have a grand time. They "work harder" when we hit 4 stacks cuz this WAR don't have to easy-button "lolHallowed Ground" But other than that, I've made believers out of them.

Looking forward to turn 2 tonight.

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In order to increase WAR mitigation one has to sacrifice EHP.

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No you don't. Inner Beast was never meant to be spammed. I tried that and it didn't work.

I don't sacrifice EHP to use Inner Beast. People who use IB>Infuriate>IB do. Unless the mob is nearly dead, it's not going to work.

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Originally Posted by dandelions

You can just see HiirNoivl and Lhun's mind's melting in this thread... unable to grasp situations and context outside their immediate surroundings, trying to make points that have already been blatantly and preemptively contradicted by the original post explained in detail with math and simple logic.

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Math and simple logic does not explain my success. You think the math is right but the basic premise is incorrect.

I already figured out that you need a huge IB to make up for the Wrath V. But instead of concluding that WAR was broken, I concluded that my playstyle was wrong and changed it so I wouldn't suffer a loss of EHP based on my own actions.

In short, I L'ed 2 P

EDIT: INB4

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

More and more hypotheticals and speculation that explains why WAR shouldn't tank at ENDgame

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I tank at end game.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

To the person wariror tankign Turn 1: Vid please. I really want to see this.

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Hi Pied.

I'd love to post a video of my Tanking success! And I would have already!

Unfortunately, Fraps freezes my client. You can see this in my Garuda Video. Even if it's 2 or 3 secs only, that can spell a wipe it if happens when Caduceus's split or at other sensitive times. I'm not about to risk wipes just to satisfy your curiosity. Garuda I can tank with my eyes closed and my screen frozen. Caddie... eeeeeeh... not so much.

But the mechanics of the fight makes mitigating damage easy. Basically the goal is to DPS hard in the beginning and force an early split. Because I can survive up to 4 stacks of steel scales, having it split at 2 stacks isn't that big of a deal since usually a slime pops shortly after that and we can keep it at one.

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Originally Posted by Derza

What exactly does that have to do with anything he said? You still can't increase your str enough to overcome the mitigation differences between the classes... and if you did you wouldn't have the HP to take the hits... See the downside?

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The only difference being that WARs main form is static and PLD's scales.

Make self heals scale according to incoming dmg when defiance is active and the problem is solved.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

So what's your point?

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For teh simplest example a pld can mitigate 50% damage on average over 2 minutes utilizing abilities and rotations.

In fight one lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 1500 damage. his abilities (block, damage reduction cooldowns) mitigate 750 damage.
In fight two lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 5000 damage. his abilities (block, damage reduction cooldowns) mitigate 2500 damage.


A warrior however has mitigation in self heals (parry isnt counted as it is the same or virtually the same as PLD's) and a larger HP pool to allow to have a chance to self heal after taking a hit.
Assuming the Warriors "perfect rotations" allow 1500 hp of self heals over 2 minutes.

In fight one lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 1500 damage. his self heals mitigate 1500 damage. INVINCIBLE!
In fight two lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 5000 damage. his self heals mitigate 1500 damage. Just as they did with less damage.but you're taking 1000 more dmg per 2 minutes than a pld



WAR's need an ability that scales mitigation based on incoming damage. Just as PLD does now. I think it'd be incredibly boring to just increase parry rate of WAR to be comprable to PLD's % style mitigation.

Which is why my vote goes for WAR's self heal ability to scale according to damage recieved.




That's my point. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

No. You raise your HP + raise you EHP. Which is more than raising just your HP by stacking VIT and not including mitigation on top of it.
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Yes i know what you were saying i just don't see how it applies to what the other guy you quoted said. You can't raise your EHP to surpass a paladin no matter what stats you go with the difference is just to large once you get to titan/coil. I did some calculations in some other posts... the threshold for when a paladin surpasses a warrior in tanking mitigation is somewhere in the 300-400 incoming dps range. That basically means warriors are better in most 4 man dungeons situations and never better in any 8 man +, at least how the game is right now.

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Originally Posted by Derza

Yes i know what you were saying i just don't see how it applies to what the other guy you quoted said. You can't raise your EHP to surpass a paladin no matter what stats you go with the difference is just to large once you get to titan/coil. I did some calculations in some other posts... the threshold for when a paladin surpasses a warrior in tanking mitigation is somewhere in the 300-400 incoming dps range. That basically means warriors are better in most 4 man dungeons situations and never better in any 8 man +, at least how the game is right now.

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I hadn't worked it out but that was the gist I was getting at.

Below a certain incoming DPS Warrior is better.
As it goes above that certain incoming DPS PLD starts pulling away and becomes better.

ATM coils and titan are way above that certain incoming DPS.


Titan is entirely possible as a WAR I've tanked it before. But it does require more effort from the healers.

Derza can you gimme a link to the calculations for the threshold of incoming dps and where the boundary is?

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Originally Posted by Terabyt3

Derza can you gimme a link to the calculations for the threshold of incoming dps and where the boundary is?

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I did my calculations using Defiance + IB vs Shield Oath. You can go to page 15 and see where someone did calculations comparing the cd's.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...se-tank/page12

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Why do you all seem so eager to make this happen? If a buff happens, and they don't balance it somehow, a skilled Warrior will completely decimate a skilled PLD at endgame and the situation will flip like a piece in Go.

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Pieces don't flip in GO. I believe you are thinking of othello, a completely different game....
Anyways... Proceed.

Lol that's my thread when I didn't even consider the fixed mitigation vs. variable mitigation aspect!

It's nice to know that WAR's are better at something though. Unfortunately high incoming damage is not it.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

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That's kind of the point of this whole exercise. Did you completely miss the second post? The point was looking at how big of an inner beast you would need as a WAR to match the mitigation from a Paladin. But I guess your little lamentation highlights one of the prime imbalances. In order to increase WAR mitigation one has to sacrifice EHP. For a PLD it is something that "just happens".

Take a look at paladins. In AK, a PLD will mitigate 60-80 DPS. In BC a PLD with the same gear will mitigate 160-300 DPS. And this is the mitigation contribution from Shield Oath alone.

Now think about the WAR. In AK a WAR with Relic +1 and full DL gear is going to mitigate ~70 DPS on average. In BC a WAR with the same gear is going to mitigate ~70 DPS.

This is where the imbalance comes from. Yes, WAR can increase their mitigation but a) not to the levels necessary to tank endgame content, and b) they can only do so by sacrificing EHP.

So lets say you use 3 DPS accessories and put 30 points to STR instead of VIT. Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that this increases Inner Beast damage by 100 per Inner Beast. This leaves you down 60 VIT but up 100 mitigation per inner beast.

This means that now instead of mitigating 70 DPS you're mitigating 75 DPS. But instead of having 7200 HP you now have 6200 HP.

So if a boss has ~1000 DPS, without increasing your mitigation you would be able to survive for ~7 seconds on average. If you increased your mitigation you'll be around for ~6 seconds on average.

You're sacrificing 15% of your EHP, in order to gain a 7% increase in the damage you mitigate (and that isn't 7% of the monster damage, that's 7% more HP mitigated, as an expression of incoming damage, you only mitigate .5% more). It may seem like "hey as long as you aren't dying instantly, that's good!" but that's not what it's like from a healer's point of view. They now have 15% less time to react to the damage you take, and 15% less time to get your HP up. That is not a good tradeoff for cutting off .5% of the monster dps output.

This is why people say to stack VIT for endgame content.

Further, the point was that there is no way to increase your damage enough that you would be able to compare to PLD mitigation at high levels of incoming damage. You are not magically going to be hitting 4k heals from inner beast. If we could, we would be candidates for top DPS while in tank stance. If our Inner Beasts could get that big that would be a 66 DPS contribution to our damage output alone simply using Inner Beast every cooldown. That would put our Skull Sunder average at 500 damage. You can not get that much damage in the game. I thought this point was pretty obvious in the second post.

The problem is a "self heal"/"Drain" tank can scale heals in 3 ways (roughly)
1) On DPS stats - e.g. what we have now.
2) On Tank stats - e.g. Inner Beast heals for 30% of your max HP, or Inner Beast heals for 50% of your missing HP.
3) On incoming damage - e.g. Inner Beast heals for 50% of the damage you've taken over the past 5 seconds.

The top one is the most problematic - it will always be either extremely Overpowered at early game and balanced lategame, or Extremely underpowered lategame and balanced early game (we are in the latter). They need to look at another option, or throw early game balance to the wind.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

PLD has both, you just can't have them both occur at the same time. I believe (?) WAR has a higher parry rate, though.

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WAR only has a higher effective parry rate because they can't both occur at the same time. e.g. looked at a parse for a PLD yesterday of 2000 attacks, 200 blocks (10%) and ~300 parries (~15%)

For a WAR it was ~350 parries (~17%).

But if you cut the blocks off of the 2000 attacks, it leaves 1800 "parry candidate" hits. And 300/1800 =~17%.

The jobs have the same Parry rate. It's just paladin has less actual parries because they have blocks, which are better.

You can just see HiirNoivl and Lhun's mind's melting in this thread... unable to grasp situations and context outside their immediate surroundings, trying to make points that have already been blatantly and preemptively contradicted by the original post which is supported by simple logic and math. Love how they throw in personal conclusions based neither facts or testing, but on wild theories in their head supported by delusions of self importance and grandeur.

Using every CD at your disposal perfectly along with the best possible gear in game at the moment will not net you the returns of a straight 20% damage reduction. While talking about raids and end game content and current scaling of incoming boss dmg vs outgoing player dmg: there's a wall, as long as mechanics stay the same, Paladin will always be noticeably superior progression tanks, while Warriors (depending on gear/content level) will generally be the superior "Farm Status" tank.

This is a problem for most players who rolled a Warrior and want to be involved with end game content.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

So here we go over 5 minutes:

26000 from Inner Beast if you don't crit once in 4 times, say.
5000 HP Absolute MINIMUM total from bloodbath (I get usually more by optimizing combos and crits)
3000 from Thrill of Battle minimum (it's based on total hp)
1500 from Second Wind MINIMUM if you NEVER crit. You WILLcrit at least once in 4 times, ESPECIALLY if you use internal release.

Which is 35500 healed WHILE doing damage to the mob in the process. In JUST Self heals in JUST 5 minutes. I'm being conservative! The numbers are usually much higher! Go look at a parser!

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Lhun, war self heals are all fine and dandy when one is overgeared and doing trash content.

Heck, one doesn't even use it because there's often no need. I see you think they'll be useful endgame, but you have a green weapon, lvl 45 AF gear and lvl 40's accesories. You're probably finding AK to be a workout, and are probably trying Ifrit, but haven't done it enough to have gotten a blue weapon yet, or even gotten a kill. Perhaps you haven't gotten there at all yet. I remember, because I got my ass handed to me as a fresh 50, and self-heals still made a dent.

Get to Titan and Coil, and get your ass handed to you with 1200 damage on average each second. See how pitiful bloodbath is. You might stop using it, because, what's the point? It's like peeing to fill up a swimming pool. Damage taken scales up way more than the damage you do. Wanna buff up STR like Hiir so that your damage scales better? You'll get your ass pounded like a schoolgirl in a morbol hentai flick with the sacrifices you'll have to make. Parry it up with +parry and dex? Lawl. See how you take out Storm's path out of your bar because 50-100 healed on a 7k health pool every 25 seconds doesn't warrant the TP cost of SP. You think you'll be able to heal 26k with IB by using it every time it's up? You'll hang on to your wrath 5 like it's dear life, because the 15% extra healing it gives your healers will keep you alive and will net you much more healing than the heal you'll get from IB, so you'll only pop it when infuriate is up, or after a big hit like mountain buster.

BTW, you're forgetting that some of your self heals will end up as useless overhealing. It's inevitable. Every point of damage mitigated by a pally via shield oath, sentinel, hallowed, or whatever is 100% efficient.

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I'm not even going to get into the fact that simply curing us gets a bonus too, you can use the NO TP free attack "Mercy Stroke" on environmental objects and mob adds like Titan's Heart/Nail/garuda to gain an instant 1100HP minimum (if you're good you can do this with regularity)...
You can use stun+holmgang, to prevent all damage for over 12 seconds. You can prevent all damage for over 5 seconds on most bosses every 30 seconds.

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Have you tried to regularly get the last hit on a mob with a 200 potency attack in an 8 man party with 4 dps who do much more damage than you and aren't pulling back at the end so that you can get in the last hit? Have you tried using stun and holmgang on bosses? They're inmune. Stun serves as an interrupt, and Holmgang is a gimmick skill you use on the wall or trash.

Lhun sorry but the things you stated are BS. It seems to me you lack real experience with what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Also, if you shield block, you do NOT proc the chance to parry. If you unequipped a shield, you parry more, because first game checks for:

Chance to block: Yes/No Yes? Block. Parry does not happen.

Chance to block: Yes/No No? => Chance to Parry yes/no? No? => Chance to dodge yes/no? no? => Chance for mob crit you? Yes/no ?
Those things happen in that order. IF any of those things go off first, NONE OF THE THINGS UNDER HAPPEN.

So no shield, first thing that happens, is chance to parry. War gets big Parry+. Think about it.

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By a huge margin, this is my favorite post in this thread. His own explanation shows why he's wrong. its teh best.

Ps, Lhum: Holy Shiled +1 wearing just full darklight (no piotns in dex or str accessories or anything of the kidn) blocks 26% when it procs. Trolololololololololololol.

OP: Love it, great work, sad days.

To the person wariror tankign Turn 1: Vid please. I really want to see this.

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OH! RIGHT!!! PPS: Luhn, paladin has mercy stroke too :>

Noob question but does mantra work for WAR self heals?

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Originally Posted by Tenebrisme

Noob question but does mantra work for WAR self heals?

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It's a good question. But no, the Increased healing from Mantra, (and Convalescence and Wrath stacks) does not increase healing from WAR self heals.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

snip.

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Hachiko, I have seen countless claims made in these forums about relative dps of both classes while tanking (and thus while warrior is also under its damage reduction buff).

Have you done any math on relative dps between the two classes?

Of course assuming the pld is also using fracture.

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Originally Posted by dandelions

You can just see HiirNoivl and Lhun's mind's melting in this thread... unable to grasp situations and context outside their immediate surroundings, trying to make points that have already been blatantly and preemptively contradicted by the original post which is supported by simple logic and math. Love how they throw in personal conclusions based neither facts or testing, but on wild theories in their head supported by delusions of self importance and grandeur.

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guess what, those 2 are in my ignore list since a long time ago from other topics, I just wonder why ppl are wasting their time with them.

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This means that now instead of mitigating 70 DPS you're mitigating 75 DPS. But instead of having 7200 HP you now have 6200 HP.

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That's not how it works. With enough dedication (farm and stuff) you can get both. WAR need crafted DPS accessories overmelded more than any other job.
I agree that this whole thing in itself is a huge hit in our face but I had to make this point.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

That's not how it works. With enough dedication (farm and stuff) you can get both. WAR need crafted DPS accessories overmelded more than any other job.
I agree that this whole thing in itself is a huge hit in our face but I had to make this point.

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Yea but that is only to get very slight gains in tanking - it does not make it so you can compete with a normally geared paladin.

Wanna play Warrior?

Buy crafted gear - overmeld it - perfect your rotations for every possible situation, and then live with the fact that a Paladin can do just as well, if not better than you, without all the extra effort.

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Originally Posted by Derza

Yea but that is only get get very slight gains in tanking - it does not make it so you can compete with a normally geared paladin.

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=>

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Wanna play Warrior?

Buy crafted gear - overmeld it - perfect your rotations for every possible situation, and then live with the fact that a Paladin can do just as well, if not better than you, without all the extra effort.

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That's what I meant. It's not normal than a full ilvl 90 WAR with HQ crafted acc fully melded would still be inferior compared to a PLD that just farmed a full DL set in like, one week and a half, but that's how it is currently and the sooner you make peace with that, the sooner you will get there. :p
And if some sort of miracle happens and YoshiP decide to give us some love, if you already farmed all that gear, you're going to laugh at those DL PLD.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Hachiko, I have seen countless claims made in these forums about relative dps of both classes while tanking (and thus while warrior is also under its damage reduction buff).

Have you done any math on relative dps between the two classes?

Of course assuming the pld is also using fracture.

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I have, but that was before I felt that Inner Beast should be used as often as I think it should be used now (though I did calculate for it, I used 22.5 seconds as time between Inner Beasts). My theorycraft/math put WAR about 10-20% above PLD while both are in Tank stance. I.E. WAR at 120-140, PLD at 100-120 on constant damage fights. This is around what I have seen myself and what has been reported anecdotally. (Damage will be lower in real fights like Garuda / Titan because of downtime from teleports and such).

If you have 4 competent DPS players, 20 DPS is going to be between 1.5 - 2.5% faster fights. Which is worth thinking about when it comes to healers "time to oom" stat, or enrage/soft enrage mechanics, but is overall not a huge impact, and it doesn't solve the other problem of "how many gcd's does it take to top a tank off" which is the biggest weakness of WAR right now.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

That's not how it works. With enough dedication (farm and stuff) you can get both. WAR need crafted DPS accessories overmelded more than any other job.
I agree that this whole thing in itself is a huge hit in our face but I had to make this point.

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I consider that a fringe case! But even still the point basically stands. If you were to replace all 5 accessories with the STR / DEX pieces and overmelded it would still only be a gain of 45 STR for a loss of 25 VIT (assuming comparing to ilvl 90 accessories, though the gain in DEX would probably be worthwhile). Point is you're still sacrificing SOME survivability for DPS, even though in that case you're sacrificing less and it's probably worth it, the amount of survivability you gain isn't enough to bridge the gap.

Then again I kind of wonder how a PLD would do with that kind of min-maxing as well. They should theoretically get even better returns from dex, due to it boosting shield block rate as well as parry.

I think the most interesting way to think about is that if all other gear is equal between the tanks, a PLD with a Square Maple Shield in Binding Coil will be easier to heal than a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

If memory serves, when your character gets hit, the check goes in order of: Dodge, then Block, then Parry.

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PLD can dodge, block and parry, WAR can only dodge and Parry...

Seeing that paladins and warriors have the same base dodge and parry. This means Paladins get to roll a 'dice' three times to mitigate damage, vs. warriors two times.

Hope this clears anyone's thought about the matter. Some people still think that because warrior parries a few times more makes them seem like they have better parry. No, that's not the case. It's because the paladin that gets a successful block doesn't get a chance to roll for a parry.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

My theorycraft/math put WAR about 10-20% above PLD while both are in Tank stance.

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I found the same thing -- I estimated an 18% DPS advantage for WAR over PLD while both are in tanking stance. In terms of overall party DPS, it's likely around 2% in an 8-man party.

By the way, nice breakdown of the issues. :)

Oh please. It is not that hard. Most of my stuff ain't even melded. Ya'll need to quit whinging.

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Originally Posted by Derza

What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

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Ain't nobody I play with poking at my clothes. Though I carefully consider my options and make adjustments based on encounters, bring food and potions and stuff, you know... like an endgame player who actually monitors her play and takes care of things. I don't view this as "extra" effort. But I love the job. I've played Coil as PLD. I didn't like it to be honest, but I was willing to do it. I didn't see the huge advantage of PLD over WAR. I can see some situations where PLD could be better, but I could see some situations were WAR could be better too. I think the "WAR inferiority complex" has gone on long enough. If I hit a wall at Coil 4 (I'm expecting 0 trouble at Coil 3) I'll get back to you.

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Originally Posted by Derza

Once again the issue is not that it is impossible to do some of coil with a warrior tank... it is the fact that doing it with a warrior tank takes more healing. You are delusional if you think by going in as a warrior you are some how helping the party out. Sure you might not do as well playing a paladin as you do playing a warrior - But a well played PLD will perform better than a well played Warrior every time in any encounter where the incoming dps is over 400ish.

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I ask: "Do you want me to switch to PLD? I can if you guys want." The answer was a resounding "No."

So what can I say? Just giving people what they want. :)

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Originally Posted by Derza

Hard to have an intelligent argument with you. You bring no proof no logical explanations, no facts, no calculations - starting to think you are a female player playing based on emotions and not logic. (I kid - you could very well be an emotional driven male!).

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Uh oh... sexism card was played. Now who's out of an argument?

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Originally Posted by Vire

Guys I don't know how to say it any way other then just stop responding to Hiir and Lhun. They don't understand math, have not killed anything of note and are the PRIME example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect .

The fact that they keep arguing stating Str over Vit and that crit is important should give you all the info you need about them.

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I don't argue STR over VIT, nor do I argue VIT over STR. It's not hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

As to Hiir's actual comment, I think he's confusing the desire for things not to change with the desire for optimal performance. Anyone that you run with that is emotionally invested in you (i.e. friends with you) isn't going to recommend you play a class that you don't want to play (which, regardless of what you said, Hiir, you're pretty obviously not enthused by the idea of playing a PLD instead of a WAR). The answer you're getting has nothing to do with the comparative level of performance between the two classes and more to do with the fact that your friends don't want to offend you or make you feel bad by effectively requiring you to bring a class that you don't like.

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I don't see where a change is even necessary. The people who desire the change, I don't believe are playing the class correctly.

As for my "friends"... I barely know them. We get along just fine. It's not just me being a WAR that's not "optimal", our party was not "Optimal" (one BRD, one BLM, lots of melee, Two healers). If they didn't want suggest I play PLD to avoid hurting my feelings, what about everyone else?

Maybe they're just not your typical close minded, one-set-up-onry typical endgame folks who couldn't think out of the box if you drew them a diagram and wrote step by step instructions.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Oh please. It is not that hard. Most of my stuff ain't even melded. Ya'll need to quit whinging

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What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

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Originally Posted by Derza

What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

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Hubris and delusion, plus a sprinkling of repression.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

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Once again the issue is not that it is impossible to do some of coil with a warrior tank... it is the fact that doing it with a warrior tank takes more healing. You are delusional if you think by going in as a warrior you are some how helping the party out. Sure you might not do as well playing a paladin as you do playing a warrior - But a well played PLD will perform better than a well played Warrior every time in any encounter where the incoming dps is over 400ish.

Guys I don't know how to say it any way other then just stop responding to Hiir and Lhun. They don't understand math, have not killed anything of note and are the PRIME example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect .

The fact that they keep arguing stating Str over Vit and that crit is important should give you all the info you need about them.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I ask: "Do you want me to switch to PLD? I can if you guys want." The answer was a resounding "No."

So what can I say? Just giving people what they want. :)

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Hard to have an intelligent argument with you. You bring no proof no logical explanations, no facts, no calculations - starting to think you are a player that plays based on emotions and not logic.

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Originally Posted by Derza

(Not trying to offend - just my observations).

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Personally, I find that incredibly offensive, mainly because it operates under the supposition that women are slaves to their emotions whereas men are purely logical and in control. Even if you want to discuss gender differences from a psychological standpoint, women are only slightly more prone to instinctive and emotion reaction than men are, but factors like race, age, and occupation/education/field of expertise play a *much* larger role than gender does.

As to Hiir's actual comment, I think he's confusing the desire for things not to change with the desire for optimal performance. Anyone that you run with that is emotionally invested in you (i.e. friends with you) isn't going to recommend you play a class that you don't want to play (which, regardless of what you said, Hiir, you're pretty obviously not enthused by the idea of playing a PLD instead of a WAR). The answer you're getting has nothing to do with the comparative level of performance between the two classes and more to do with the fact that your friends don't want to offend you or make you feel bad by effectively requiring you to bring a class that you don't like.

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Originally Posted by Derza

Hard to have an intelligent argument with you. You bring no proof no logical explanations, no facts, no calculations - starting to think you are a female player playing based on emotions and not logic (Not trying to offend - just my observations).

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If you have to preface what you said not trying to offend you are already trying to excuse crappy behavior. Attack the persons arguments not the person. This is no better then when they come in here loudly shouting bad math.

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Originally Posted by Derza

(Not trying to offend - just my observations).

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If you're trying to disclaim an offensive comment, usually it's better not to say it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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I agree with Kitru. That was offensive Derz... whether you were trying to be or not.


Hiir's experiences are valid to Hiir - but those experiences are frequently counter to the mathematical and factual data that people observe/test/postulate; and that's fine. Personally I think Hiir benefits from having highly supportive friends that play their classes exceptionally well. Work wise - Hiir has Darksteel body gear with all slots melded, and 3 or 4 overmelds, a Relic +1, and several other pieces of Darklight/Hero equipment on her Warrior; she's done her best to figure out what works for her.

Her Warrior is her preference - despite the fact that Paladin has simpler core mechanics, more utility, and survival capability - no there is no parse/information/calculation or demonstration of an instance where Warrior is equal or superior to support her argument - information coming from Hiir isn't tested in a controlled environment and thus unverifiable. In a debate where we're discussing fundamental core flaws Hiir's input is often nothing more than pedantic. I'm on the same server as them - they're a very nice person but not really interested in changing\improving\discussing the core mechanics of Warrior.

I'm more than happy to discuss, but in one sense you're right. I would have to reach an actual situation in game where I could not surmount it no matter what I tried. Maybe that's Turn 4... or Turn 5... I'm hungry for it.

I love a challenge. Maybe that's why all the crying and whining irritates me that much... maybe that's why I don't like PLD, heh.

My secondary is SMN, another underdog job... so maybe I just enjoy cheering for a "losing team"?

But in the end, yeah, I'm decided that WAR is my main job. I need to be challenged in this game. I love tanking Caduceus and stretching my wings so to speak. Garuda is boring. Titan is face roll.

Are they right? Are WARs suboptimal tanks in practice and not just on paper? I've yet to seee. Turn 3 here I come. ^_^

Yea sorry about that i had changed my post like 5 times... Then someone came by (i'm at work) so i got distracted I was going to remove that. Sorry to everyone i might have offended! I was going to take out the female part compeletly I know it was a bad thing to say and i don't believe it even lol... Sorry once again

Well it's true tho, female gamer are inferior to us.

Now bring me the pop corn.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

Well it's true tho, female gamer are inferior to us.

Now bring me the pop corn.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gciFoEbOA8

Well this thread pretty much says it all. From now on I will only take PLD to end game content.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

My secondary is SMN, another underdog job... so maybe I just enjoy cheering for a "losing team"?

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Since when was SMN an underdog job....SMN is ridiculously good and I haven't seen anyone who actually knows how to play well say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Turn 3 here I come. ^_^

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I await your response where you try to argue for WARs superiority because you did fine in Turn 3 coil, even though Turn 3 is literally nothing but trash mobs and doesn't even have a boss.