#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

I did not do PvE as a healer in SWTOR but it was fun in PvP, since it used same PvE skills. Keeping yourself and allies alive when people are actively trying to burst you down was very engaging challenge which is on completely opposite side of how healing feels in FFXIV.

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Remember standing in acid farming HPS in huttball while people would cleave off your group? God healers were nutty esp when people did not interrupt or cc chained just tried to raw tunnel you.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

I did not do PvE as a healer in SWTOR but it was fun in PvP, since it used same PvE skills. Keeping yourself and allies alive when people are actively trying to burst you down was very engaging challenge which is on completely opposite side of how healing feels in FFXIV.

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It was so funny as Sorcerer to cast Force Barrier at <10% hp in the middle of the arena, while 5-6 people keep trying to kill you haha :D So much fun with funny utility spells...

But we digress... I have a question - I checked out the new Extreme Dungeons. Don't worry, it was on a stream, not in-game, I don't have a DPS at level 100 yet, leveling is super slow with these dungeon queues. They don't look that hard, if you know the mechanics; at the same time they look punishing for healers, there's a lot of pressure to not get oneshot (even with 0 vulnerability stacks) from almost insta-cast red circles, which might happe while resurrecting others... There's like no learning curve for your role, just the content, and if the DPS keep dying even with Swiftcast CD reduction it looks probable you might end up slow-casting res... I want to ask the people, who completed them - is that a fair assumption? I am considering playing them on my Sage to check them out, but only after I cancel the auto-renewal of my subscription beforehand, so I am not sure... Let me know, thanks!

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Originally Posted by Kozmakis

It was so funny as Sorcerer to cast Force Barrier at <10% hp in the middle of the arena, while 5-6 people keep trying to kill you haha :D So much fun with funny utility spells...

But we digress... I have a question - I checked out the new Extreme Dungeons. Don't worry, it was on a stream, not in-game, I don't have a DPS at level 100 yet, leveling is super slow with these dungeon queues. They don't look that hard, if you know the mechanics; at the same time they look punishing for healers, there's a lot of pressure to not get oneshot (even with 0 vulnerability stacks) from almost insta-cast red circles, which might happe while resurrecting others... There's like no learning curve for your role, just the content, and if the DPS keep dying even with Swiftcast CD reduction it looks probable you might end up slow-casting res... I want to ask the people, who completed them - is that a fair assumption? I am considering playing them on my Sage to check them out, but only after I cancel the auto-renewal of my subscription beforehand, so I am not sure... Let me know, thanks!

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I healed them. They're not punishing. I DPSed them. The healers died, and it still didn't matter. The non-Warrior tank and I lived to the end of the bosses anyway. Still no effort required even in "expert" dungeons.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

"Tab Target" is not a genre.

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It is at least as much a (sub-)genre as third-person shooter, 2.5D fighter, Soulslike action, etc., each of which are significant descriptors whenever the characteristic difference is leveraged. MMOs without any underlying hard-targeting systems (those which are not tab-target) tend to play very differently from those with them. TERA and XIV, for instance, play about as differently as TERA and Lost Ark do, despite TERA and XIV both being third-person vs. Lost Ark's top-down view.

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Originally Posted by Isala

I healed them. They're not punishing. I DPSed them. The healers died, and it still didn't matter. The non-Warrior tank and I lived to the end of the bosses anyway. Still no effort required even in "expert" dungeons.

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Well, there you go :) I might give them a try then... I am still curious as tio why they are homogenising jobs altogether by having a learning curve mainly for the content, not as much for the role.. I mean, once you learn the mechanics, your job matters way less...

Pretty common in the Crystal DC, but healer quality has really dropped. This was for a farm party.
https://i.imgur.com/0CULhcg.png

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I do not think people are claiming that, the difference between WoW, SWTOR and FFXIV. Is I do not think SE wants healers to be the point of failure in group content. I do not think they want a single role to be the point of failure when it comes to their core gameplay. Look at tanks, aggro management is a thing of the past, and the moment they have an issue holding aggro they just buff aggro gen.

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Thing about that is, they could have reduced the feeling of 'Healer dies? We're all boned' in many ways, not just 'make Healer have one damage button to spam for 80%+ of their GCDs' and/or 'make Healer have like 15 different healing OGCD tools, to further reduce how much they need to GCD heal (since that has a cast time, which could cause the Healer to be late with the healing)'.

Simple solution: Phoenix Downs can now be used in combat with a 5s cast time, you can carry up to 999 in a stack (instead of being limited to 1), and you can buy them from any item vendor (same as the trash NQ potions, echo drops etc) for some nominal price (eg 100gil each). Bang, now anyone can raise the healer should they die (even melee/physranged/tanks), RDM/SMN's raise is still valuable as it has range (Phoenix Down has a very short range), and it has less punishment to their damage to use it compared to a Phoenix Down (5s for PD, 2.5s recast for Swiftcasting the raise spell), and RDM still retains its ability to machine-gun out multiple resses back to back.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Thing about that is, they could have reduced the feeling of 'Healer dies? We're all boned' in many ways, not just 'make Healer have one damage button to spam for 80%+ of their GCDs' and/or 'make Healer have like 15 different healing OGCD tools, to further reduce how much they need to GCD heal (since that has a cast time, which could cause the Healer to be late with the healing)'.

Simple solution: Phoenix Downs can now be used in combat with a 5s cast time, you can carry up to 999 in a stack (instead of being limited to 1), and you can buy them from any item vendor (same as the trash NQ potions, echo drops etc) for some nominal price (eg 100gil each). Bang, now anyone can raise the healer should they die (even melee/physranged/tanks), RDM/SMN's raise is still valuable as it has range (Phoenix Down has a very short range), and it has less punishment to their damage to use it compared to a Phoenix Down (5s for PD, 2.5s recast for Swiftcasting the raise spell), and RDM still retains its ability to machine-gun out multiple resses back to back.

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or, it can be used to get rid of the healer role all together

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Thing about that is, they could have reduced the feeling of 'Healer dies? We're all boned' in many ways, not just 'make Healer have one damage button to spam for 80%+ of their GCDs' and/or 'make Healer have like 15 different healing OGCD tools, to further reduce how much they need to GCD heal (since that has a cast time, which could cause the Healer to be late with the healing)'.

Simple solution: Phoenix Downs can now be used in combat with a 5s cast time, you can carry up to 999 in a stack (instead of being limited to 1), and you can buy them from any item vendor (same as the trash NQ potions, echo drops etc) for some nominal price (eg 100gil each). Bang, now anyone can raise the healer should they die (even melee/physranged/tanks), RDM/SMN's raise is still valuable as it has range (Phoenix Down has a very short range), and it has less punishment to their damage to use it compared to a Phoenix Down (5s for PD, 2.5s recast for Swiftcasting the raise spell), and RDM still retains its ability to machine-gun out multiple resses back to back.

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A good thought, but it sounds like a short-term solution... what happens when people forget to buy them or they run out of gil? :D I think a more permanent solution is to grant everyone a resurrection spell, or remove resurrections during combat altogether, reduce the number of oneshot mechanics (substitute them with DOTs or some other debuffs?) and encourage wiping as a learning mechanism. Of course, the latter is almost impossible to happen, nobody will redo all dungeon, trial, and raid fights since ARR...

The dot mechanic instead of vuln is cool. How SE has gone about it is not perfect but for whatever reason this js the design choice they went with. I do think the likely solution and feedback has to fall in simular scope fo the current design philosophy.

Which is hard cause SE is all over the place. Part of it seems they are are deathly afraid to repeat HW. I would arfue stormblood was the perfect balance, but for whatever reason they felt that was too much also.

That being said I greatly enjoyed the new raids and i am looking forward to savage. Oddly enough SE have shown they made make interesting damage focused healers sage in PvP is a lot of fun. Those are more support roles and maybe that is what SE needs to embrace. Go the support but not full healer route but that also goes against what they appear to want with current heals.

Ast is a lot of fun for me personally now.

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Originally Posted by ViaDesperare

Pretty common in the Crystal DC, but healer quality has really dropped. This was for a farm party.
[IMG]

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Me seeing the pic:

https://cdn.memegenerator.es/imagene...69/4690957.jpg

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

"Tab Target" is not a genre.

*snip*
Please look at the marketing and screenshots for Blade and Soul. Now look at the marketing for Aion. Both of these are NCSoft. Both of these games adhere to class-lock. BDO also does class lock.
*snip*

Basically what I'm saying here is a lot of these Japanese and Korean games tend to market on the character designs, and survive or fail based on how much players want to play that character/race/class. That character/race/class lockin is a feature to make players have to start over and pump their P2W monies if they want to play that new character. Meanwhile FFXIV is over here and going "Hey you can play all the jobs on one character! Look at how much less time you have to commit!"

*snip*

Asian players tend to care more about how the game looks (again , look at how much the JP side cares about animations) over functionality. Players can complain all they want about Healers being a 1-button DPS in all the MSQ content, but it's never going to become more like a DPS because the JP side doesn't want it to be a DPS. Play DPS if you want DPS functionality and leave the healer role alone.

The easiest rip-off-the-bandaid approach Square Enix can take is to just disable all the DPS buttons in Trial and Raid content on the healer to get the point across that the healer should be only healing in 8-player content. Then in turn disable the self-healing buttons on all the DPS and the Tank. Healing should be amplified on the Tank if they are using their mitigations correctly. But players don't want to play content differently. They want to treat all content like a DPS, because SE keeps making the encounter design that way where half the boss fight is just dodging optional damage rather than bleeding.

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I've played a number of games that you've listed, including both Western and Korean MMOs. Of the games in that list, played Aion since closed beta (so 2009) until 2021, as well as Blade and Soul for several years. There were additional games, however those were the ones that I had the most experience, and based upon those games I while I would definitely agree that appearance was extremely important in numerous aspects ranging from the character customization to the game backgrounds- the attention paid to job design was in no way overlooked. I don't agree with the statement that functionality wasn't considered important, as cosmetic updates weren't the sole or primary focus of content updates at all.

To be honest, your "band-aid" approach doesn't make any sense at all to me. It's a mixture of treating healers like NPCs who can't have any agency, and punishing other jobs because of poor encounter design?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

"Tab Target" is not a genre.

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Yeah it is, Its a common community labelled genre.
WOW, FFXIV, LOTR Online, GW2 and Runescape 3 are all labelled as tab target MMOs. This is an extremely common term I am shocked you have never come a cross it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Then go back to Western MMORPG's and what do we have...
1. Minecraft (modded)
2. WoW
3. SWTOR
4. Star Trek Online
5. ESO
6. Fallout76

Of these maybe SWTOR isn't ugly.

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Ok? This is opinion based. There is no objective correct opinions. I like how WOW looks and don't like how BDO looks. WTF is this even about? How is this relevant to healer gameplay?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Basically what I'm saying here is a lot of these Japanese and Korean games tend to market on the character designs.
--Meanwhile FFXIV is over here and going "Hey you can play all the jobs on one character! Look at how much less time you have to commit!"

Asian players tend to care more about how the game looks (again , look at how much the JP side cares about animations) over functionality. Players can complain all they want about Healers being a 1-button DPS in all the MSQ content.

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Okay? I am not a JP player I disagree fundementally with their opinions if they all have this exact same opinion. Even if the game is focused on JP players more, they have a western forums and have listened to it before. Im sure that the french and german forums also have disagreements with our ideas too. I am not going to change my opinions just because of JP priority.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The easiest rip-off-the-bandaid approach Square Enix can take is to just disable all the DPS buttons in Trial and Raid content on the healer. --disable the self-healing buttons on all the DPS and the Tank. Healing should be amplified on the Tank if they are using their mitigations correctly. But players don't want to play content differently. They want to treat all content like a DPS, because SE keeps making the encounter design that way where half the boss fight is just dodging optional damage rather than bleeding.

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Yeah but healer damage is needed to pass during the first few months, look at p8s. Heal bot gameplay will kill the role completely, for the entirety of the early 2000s healers in the popular MMOs were designed around only healing during raids and this in turn led to the role being INCREDIBLY unpopular.
The second WOW came out with cata which had added damage optimisation for healers the role became far more popular, this is what ARR was based on btw. So the main problem with trying to turn healers into healbots is that FFXIV was built from the ground up with healers dealing damage in mind.
Unless they decide to completely rework the core game and rebalance literally everything the easiest way to fix this problem will always be giving healers more interesting dps.

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Originally Posted by Kozmakis

A good thought, but it sounds like a short-term solution... what happens when people forget to buy them or they run out of gil? :D I think a more permanent solution is to grant everyone a resurrection spell, or remove resurrections during combat altogether, reduce the number of oneshot mechanics (substitute them with DOTs or some other debuffs?) and encourage wiping as a learning mechanism. Of course, the latter is almost impossible to happen, nobody will redo all dungeon, trial, and raid fights since ARR...

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I would rather look at why healers die. It's so easy to say "yeah, why have sh*tty healers that's why". Sure, there are probably some who just jump in from their summoner or boost, but there are probably multiple reasons ranging from inherently low defense, UI, skills (lack of a self-raise), etc.

yall still at this? christ, what a shame.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I would rather look at why healers die. It's so easy to say "yeah, why have sh*tty healers that's why". Sure, there are probably some who just jump in from their summoner or boost, but there are probably multiple reasons ranging from inherently low defense, UI, skills (lack of a self-raise), etc.

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You are right, there are many ways to tackle the problem - more HP, more defence, self-raise etc. I am up for anything that would punish healers less than others for dying :) I personally prefer the lack of combat res, because it teaches people responsibility to not die while standing in fire. Right now, if you die as DPS and don't get ressed, the healer is considered a noob.. and tanks don't really die lol, but that's just me!

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Originally Posted by alfarini

yall still at this? christ, what a shame.

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Gotta do something, while waiting for the long DPS queues for dungeons, you know! And thanks for the free bump!

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Originally Posted by alfarini

yall still at this? christ, what a shame.

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*shrug* I mean, if you don't like it you can heal? I'm bored with the job so you are more then welcome to it!

But ya, Kozmakis that is a beautiful answer :3

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Originally Posted by alfarini

yall still at this? christ, what a shame.

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Right? While I was supportive of the idea of a strike at first, ironically had they played a crumb of healer this expansion they'd know all of their demands have been satisfied.

"All of their demands"? Where's my 4 different healers? Do I get my engagement past 1st week or am I back to Glaroilficosis purgatory after?

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

Right? While I was supportive of the idea of a strike at first, ironically had they played a crumb of healer this expansion they'd know all of their demands have been satisfied.

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Thank you, I needed that laugh.

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

Right? While I was supportive of the idea of a strike at first, ironically had they played a crumb of healer this expansion they'd know all of their demands have been satisfied.

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Point me to a healing job whose base rotation does not consist of one dot and one damage spell.

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

Right? While I was supportive of the idea of a strike at first, ironically had they played a crumb of healer this expansion they'd know all of their demands have been satisfied.

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Did both fights and with an orange healer parse and still did sleep same in dungeons. Are these satisfied healer demands in the room with us here ?

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I do not think people are claiming that, the difference between WoW, SWTOR and FFXIV. Is I do not think SE wants healers to be the point of failure in group content. I do not think they want a single role to be the point of failure when it comes to their core gameplay. Look at tanks, aggro management is a thing of the past, and the moment they have an issue holding aggro they just buff aggro gen.

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So, SE wants to remove points of failure for group content. For tanks, they grant the gift of ascension to godhood, then they take a meat cleaver to healers. I think it's fair to call out that double standard.

Also, they want to minimise one role being a point of failure, but they were perfectly fine to make one person a point of failure in harder content with their body check style of mechanics. SE is hardly consistent at all lately.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I do not think people are claiming that, the difference between WoW, SWTOR and FFXIV. Is I do not think SE wants healers to be the point of failure in group content. I do not think they want a single role to be the point of failure when it comes to their core gameplay. Look at tanks, aggro management is a thing of the past, and the moment they have an issue holding aggro they just buff aggro gen.

It appears SE wants the point of failure to be on the group overall and not just one role. Least it seems like that.

I love healing in SWTOR merc healer was a lot of fun, and disc priest and rshammy are also a lot of fun. Also specs come into play cause if you want brain dead healing in WoW or Tor you just went rdruid or sorc.

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Point of failure was never on just one role, though. Enrages exist and sheer time-efficiency still exist, the risk and/or reward from which all but healers engage with decently. Tanks can still live or die, and of course cost their party dps, through failure to mitigate sufficiently.

Why should other roles be allowed engagement even when its potential failure points (e.g., mitigation, enrage) aren't pushed to their limits while healer alone should not only have little to no other means of engagement but also not be allowed any significant test of its unique potential failure points?

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Also specs come into play cause if you want brain dead healing in WoW... you just went rdruid...

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Not surprised that cat-weaving / moon-weaving was left out despite absolutely being a "healer's" job there (at least) as much as here.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Yeah it is, Its a common community labelled genre.
WOW, FFXIV, LOTR Online, GW2 and Runescape 3 are all labelled as tab target MMOs. This is an extremely common term I am shocked you have never come a cross it.

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All "tab target" means is that it can only played with a keyboard and mouse. Nothing else. FFXIV can be played with a controller, and in order to do that, it has to reduce the amount of buttons you can press to about 8.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Ok? This is opinion based. There is no objective correct opinions. I like how WOW looks and don't like how BDO looks. WTF is this even about? How is this relevant to healer gameplay?

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I didn't say that made them bad. WoW looks 20 years old because IT IS 20 years old. There is no amount of lipstick you can paint on it that will not make it feel 20 years old.

A lot of these "pretty games" from Asia have short life spans too because people over there are not as attached to physical or virtual items as westerners are. Western players get absolutely enraged when you take away the things they earned in a game.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Yeah but healer damage is needed to pass during the first few months, look at p8s.

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It's only needed to cheese the raid before everyone has geared up, they are not designed for the healer to be required to DPS. The developers are on record about this.

Fundamentally the problem is that they designed the core game mechanic around DPS, and haven't given healers any thought to how they should work since ARR. Look how samey-same the healers play. Look at how little damage healers and tanks actually do. They know that if they made all roles straight DPS in the first place, every fight would just be a "how fast can I burn this boss down" contest and players would become super toxic in group play because they would all believe they are in competition with each other.

How the developers want the game to work and how players believe it should work can be at odds, but right now it's mostly "at odds" with the western playerbase more than the Japanese playerbase, and that's because they want the roles to be exactly what they are supposed to be and not "Every role to be the same as a DPS".

Less people forget that Final Fantasy has an identity, and trying to change that identity is just not going to happen. The White Mage is always going to be a healer first, and is lucky to even have DPS actions since it doesn't in other games since mechanically it should only be able to damage undead.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Point of failure was never on just one role, though. Enrages exist and sheer time-efficiency still exist, the risk and/or reward from which all but healers engage with decently. Tanks can still live or die, and of course cost their party dps, through failure to mitigate sufficiently.

Why should other roles be allowed engagement even when its potential failure points (e.g., mitigation, enrage) aren't pushed to their limits while healer alone should not only have little to no other means of engagement but also not be allowed any significant test of its unique potential failure points?



Not surprised that cat-weaving / moon-weaving was left out despite absolutely being a "healer's" job there (at least) as much as here.

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Sorry yes point of failure is not just one one role, but for the most part other roles are easier to recover from or at the very least have the perception that is easier to recover from. I mean while it may not be as common as it was years ago we still have people suffering from tank anxiety due to not wanting to feel like the leader of the group, or don't wish to do W2W because they find it stressful. Still run into healers that don't wish to heal W2W or even want to damage because they are afraid they will miss out on a heal and let the tank die. These are still concerns that are echoed in the game.

Should other roles get a sense of engagement with healers are left holding a bag because SE cannot figure out how to give them something to do that does not take their attention away from healing? No, but that is where we are.

Also if we are being honest and truly honest no cat weaving / moon weaving are not exactly required or even needed for general content. Even with Rshammy which has probably the most intuitive DPS rotation and healing kit their damage or even interrupts are not required for general content. Isn't that for the most part what we are talking about? Maybe I am just a bad healer but I still find savage and ultimate fights engaging as a healer at least when doing prog. Sure once the fight is mapped out it is a different story but that has more to do with fight design rather then healers themselves.

Edit: Deleted the other post cause I wrote on mobile while standing on the bus.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A lot of these "pretty games" from Asia have short life spans too because people over there are not as attached to physical or virtual items as westerners are. Western players get absolutely enraged when you take away the things they earned in a game.

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I would like to introduce you to japanese idol culture and hikikomori video game no life shut ins. There's a reason they can't allow any of the scions to have romance dialogue with players. Because Japanese players will go rabid over who is the "real" partner to their favorite npc. Idol culture is actually the theme of the tournament raid series.
But it is true that they are also generally much less attached to the secular, being largely shinto. Whereas atheism is big in the west which is entirely secular and believes exclusively in the secular, so there is nothing else to existence than one's physical possessions.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

So, SE wants to remove points of failure for group content. For tanks, they grant the gift of ascension to godhood, then they take a meat cleaver to healers. I think it's fair to call out that double standard.

Also, they want to minimise one role being a point of failure, but they were perfectly fine to make one person a point of failure in harder content with their body check style of mechanics. SE is hardly consistent at all lately.

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Idk making it a point in harder seems on brand since didnt they say if you want more engaging content then play the harder contrnt. I agree SE is not consistent I give you that.

Even if they were consistent in their desire to apply their philosophy of “one person should never be a failure point” across all content we can still call out that their solution of making tanks immortal and healers useless is the worst physical way they could have done this

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Even if they were consistent in their desire to apply their philosophy of “one person should never be a failure point” across all content we can still call out that their solution of making tanks immortal and healers useless is the worst physical way they could have done this

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100% free to call it out and offer suggestions no one is saying that you should not voice your concerns. I think what people that are confused by the strike are really saying at least what I am saying is. The changes have to make sense within the current frame work and vision they have shown. For whatever reason they don't want to give healers more DPS buttons or some sort of combo action. They took away tools which I also do not agree with.

For example I would love for aggro to go back to being a group effort but I know that goes against the vision of SE and will never happen, just like I also wish we got old SMN back or a dot style caster added. It seems they want to move away from that play style. Hell, I miss TP and the funny memes with AST haste cards.

SE clearly has a vision one I do not agree with and clearly many others do not, voicing our concerns is one thing but another thing we do have to consider is that like it or not many people do see to enjoy the current direction. Like I get the healer strike is a thing but personally have not seen much of a difference in numbers but we will have to wait till later to see. Same with tanks I miss old aggro management but for the most part it seems many are fine with the new system.

End of the day it is possible the game may no longer be for certain people or roles are not meant for certain players.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

100% free to call it out and offer suggestions no one is saying that you should not voice your concerns. I think what people that are confused by the strike are really saying at least what I am saying is. The changes have to make sense within the current frame work and vision they have shown. For whatever reason they don't want to give healers more DPS buttons or some sort of combo action. They took away tools which I also do not agree with.

For example I would love for aggro to go back to being a group effort but I know that goes against the vision of SE and will never happen, just like I also wish we got old SMN back or a dot style caster added. It seems they want to move away from that play style. Hell, I miss TP and the funny memes with AST haste cards.

SE clearly has a vision one I do not agree with and clearly many others do not, voicing our concerns is one thing but another thing we do have to consider is that like it or not many people do see to enjoy the current direction. Like I get the healer strike is a thing but personally have not seen much of a difference in numbers but we will have to wait till later to see. Same with tanks I miss old aggro management but for the most part it seems many are fine with the new system.

End of the day it is possible the game may no longer be for certain people or roles are not meant for certain players.

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their vision needs to be shared with the rest of the class. I for one, would love to know if they intend for healers to have a future or grind it out under Yoshi P's sneaker soles.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

All "tab target" means is that it can only played with a keyboard and mouse. Nothing else. FFXIV can be played with a controller, and in order to do that, it has to reduce the amount of buttons you can press to about 8.

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tab target is a community given name. It's any mmo with the target system that wow has. The name tab target just came from keyboard tab key. Playing pedantics is silly.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A lot of these "pretty games" from Asia have short life spans too because people over there are not as attached to physical or virtual items as westerners are. Western players get absolutely enraged when you take away the things they earned in a game.

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Again I fail to see why this is relevant for discussion about healing and trinity balance

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's only needed to cheese the raid before everyone has geared up, they are not designed for the healer to be required to DPS. The developers are on record about this.

Fundamentally the problem is that they designed the core game mechanic around DPS, and haven't given healers any thought to how they should work since ARR. Look how samey-same the healers play. Look at how little damage healers and tanks actually do. They know that if they made all roles straight DPS in the first place, every fight would just be a "how fast can I burn this boss down" contest and players would become super toxic in group play because they would all believe they are in competition with each other.

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The healer damage doesn't matter was said in stormblood, which was a lie then too. Healer damage has always been important in the early period of the raid cycle since ARR until now. They can say something is irrelevant but that's different from actually seeing it in game.

I will say you are right about the obsession with DPS bit really this is an MMO player problem. The Devs added small damage potencies to everything in ARR and HW including utility skills and the players decided they're core to the rotation not the Devs. I think the Devs in SHB fell into the trap of listening to parsers which is never a good idea.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

How the developers want the game to work and how players believe it should work can be at odds, but right now it's mostly "at odds" with the western playerbase more than the Japanese playerbase, and that's because they want the roles to be exactly what they are supposed to be and not "Every role to be the same as a DPS".

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And they will remain at odds. Not everyone will agree, western players prefer more open job design while Japanese want more role locked design. Western MMO players hate healbot gameplay, JP doesn't, it's as simple as that, they won't ever agree on this.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

their vision needs to be shared with the rest of the class. I for one, would love to know if they intend for healers to have a future or grind it out under Yoshi P's sneaker soles.

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Would be nice to know, yes. Do I personally think they will ever come out and say it outright? Not really, but that is also part of the reason why I play this game in bursts I do not stay subbed like I do for WoW. Game just does not have enough to keep me subbed long term.

Edit: All that being said I did have a lot of fun healing the new raid with AST and I am looking forward to savage but that could also be I have not played the game in over 6 months so I am not as burnt out as others.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

All "tab target" means is that it can only played with a keyboard and mouse. Nothing else. FFXIV can be played with a controller, and in order to do that, it has to reduce the amount of buttons you can press to about 8.

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No, tab target mean your mmo combat is based around selecting a target to use your move. FFXIV and WoW have you select a target when using single target skill. Meanwhile a non tab target mmo like BDO let you spam you attack anywhere, any time. It has nothing to do with keyboard or controller.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I didn't say that made them bad. WoW looks 20 years old because IT IS 20 years old. There is no amount of lipstick you can paint on it that will not make it feel 20 years old.

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False, Just play WoW retail then jump on WoW classic and trust me, only one of them feel like a 20 years old game. Just like Dawntrail don't feel or play at all like ARR/HW Era FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's only needed to cheese the raid before everyone has geared up, they are not designed for the healer to be required to DPS.

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It not ''cheese'' your party just can't perfom enough dps to past enrage if healer don't contribute, unless people are overgeared. They don't even need to output tons of dps but it is required, unless we assume dev are bad at balancing the content at minimum required gear level since the past few xpac (unlikely).

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Fundamentally the problem is that they designed the core game mechanic around DPS, and haven't given healers any thought to how they should work since ARR.

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Agains false, Healer weren't alway healbot and used to have more complex dps ability in mind, just similar to how modern tank got both mitigation and an actual dps rotation and damage OGCD.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Less people forget that Final Fantasy has an identity, and trying to change that identity is just not going to happen. The White Mage is always going to be a healer first, and is lucky to even have DPS actions since it doesn't in other games since mechanically it should only be able to damage undead.

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Ever heard of Holy? it a staple spell for White mage even back in FF1, where it was, the second strongest damaging spell in the game. How about all the wind damage spell they get in FF3? That also leaving all their debuff spell like toad or mini. While it true White mage is a healer foremost, it is far from lacking any offensive ability in it identity, like Do you know how much Holy is influencial in term of JRPG?

I also don't see you complain about DRK lacking their iconic self damaging skills or Warrior having access to OP gears and several type of weapons.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's only needed to cheese the raid before everyone has geared up, they are not designed for the healer to be required to DPS. The developers are on record about this.

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People have done maths and shown that you'd need a team of high-parsing (eg 90+) players, all with the BIS for the tier (including the weapon, which requires killing the boss in the first place), to beat the 4th fights on some raid tiers without healers dealing any damage. It's mathematically impossible to clear an ultimate without healers contributing damage.

The idea that we're 'cheesing' fights by having healers deal damage is laughable. If you want to stick to the 'healers should only heal' mantra that's been dead and buried for years, you're more than welcome to. In content that doesn't demand healers deal damage, such as EX roulettes or Maps or whatever, you can do whatever floats your boat. The moment you set foot in content that has a Stone Sky Sea challenge attached (which requires that you, a healer, do damage to beat), then the expectation is that you deal damage to help beat the content.

As for 'the devs said so', yes, like 7 years ago. Times change. Additionally, they've said a lot of dumb stuff in interviews that can be easily disproven (eg, that time Yoshi-P said SCHs were forcing WHMs to do all the healing, charts from the time showed the two were equal. If it were today, because mit now counts as HPS, SCH would be miles ahead.)

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

People have done maths and shown that you'd need a team of..

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Stopping you there. That is cheating and cheesing.

It's the never ending argument on this forum between people who want to play the game the way it was intended, and the people who play the cat and mouse game of "am I going to get caught cheating the new raid."
https://www.polygon.com/23581166/fin...-party-plug-in

This has happened every single time. If you got a bunch of people who want to cheese the fight by only permissible means, that is one thing. But the minute you need a third party tool, you're no longer playing the game as it was intended and defying the wishes of the developers.

If you want to play a healer. You are only required to heal. Nobody anything says is correct no matter how much they insist. That sure is a boring way to play, but you're not obligated to play by any nonsense meta that has never been true.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Would be nice to know, yes. Do I personally think they will ever come out and say it outright? Not really, but that is also part of the reason why I play this game in bursts I do not stay subbed like I do for WoW. Game just does not have enough to keep me subbed long term.

Edit: All that being said I did have a lot of fun healing the new raid with AST and I am looking forward to savage but that could also be I have not played the game in over 6 months so I am not as burnt out as others.

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pretty sad that WoW made a statement aboutt tanks and healers before SE even acknowledges the issue. and that they made a statement about it. SE lost a big opportunity there.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Stopping you there. That is cheating and cheesing.

It's the never ending argument on this forum between people who want to play the game the way it was intended, and the people who play the cat and mouse game of "am I going to get caught cheating the new raid."
https://www.polygon.com/23581166/fin...-party-plug-in

This has happened every single time. If you got a bunch of people who want to cheese the fight by only permissible means, that is one thing. But the minute you need a third party tool, you're no longer playing the game as it was intended and defying the wishes of the developers.

If you want to play a healer. You are only required to heal. Nobody anything says is correct no matter how much they insist. That sure is a boring way to play, but you're not obligated to play by any nonsense meta that has never been true.

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I'm going to do my best not to appear rude here, but I think your moral/emotional arguement is being pushed up agains ForsakenRoe's Logical arguement. Its not a "meta" requirement, they're referencing, its a DPS-CHECK requirement.

The DPS Checks in this game are mostly lenient where, yes, a Healer could succeeed without doing DPS - but at the Savage level (on Content & no echo) and at the Ultimate Level (at any time), you can't meet the DPS check before Enrage if Healers are just healing. They are correct in that it is mathmatically impossible to achieve without each member of the group contributing damage - including healers. You can call it cheating to know that it is mathmaticallly impossible (or close to it, depending on the case), but that is generally well-accepted knowledge by the average player who actively participates in the raiding content this game offers - even those who swear off of all add-ons.

Your lack of experience in the game is why you are championing the cause of Healers only need to heal. The Developers shifted the DPS requirements of content to require support players to also focus on damage back prior to Heavensward (Time line might be a little wrong, its been 10 years so cut me some slack), because of Player Demand - and it has been that way ever since. This bred the well known meme, healers are Green DPS. Tanks are Blue DPS.

Lets not get uppity and big-ego'd because we disagree emotionally with something. Base your rebuttals on something more substantial than "This is my belief" for a more constructive and objective-based discussion.

Othewise, you're just shouting into the void for no discernable reason other than to be upset with other people... and that's just obnoxious I'm sure you agree! I've done it plenty of times. I'm a very obnoxious person.

Anyway, o7

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you want to play a healer. You are only required to heal. Nobody anything says is correct no matter how much they insist. That sure is a boring way to play, but you're not obligated to play by any nonsense meta that has never been true.

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sure, thats all well and good, and tanks should only tank and not heal others and dps should only dps and not heal others... and then Dawntrail comes along and you can tank AND dps and aoe heal

I would love it if there was just healing that healers had to do, but... there isnt. and after the shine comes off dawntrail, the actual healing goes down and down even in normal content unless you are running with people that simply are bad at playing.

so. you might want to play the same game as the rest of us since you have been here so long. if there is nothing to heal, what are you going to do? your nails while waiting? no, you'll 2111 like the rest of us and.. big shocker.. ITS NOT CHEESE, or CHEATING... its trying to stay awake.

Yoshi-P have said on stream that healers should deal damage when no heal is needed because they don't want other roles see healers just standing around not contributing during those periods.