Please no more Eureka!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Also, the Rathalos mount says "Hi !"...Alongside the permanent trial that was created as part of that "event" :)

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I totally forgot about Rathalos!! How could I?....That also adds a third trial that we had that's 100 times more better than the dungeons we get.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

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I just recently finished my AST's anima weapon and realized that besides the cute story, there just isn't a whole lot of content attached to it. The "content" is just grinding tomes and trials. All of that for just glamour. But it looks nice though. Even in late HW the animas were mostly just for looks.

With the the Eureka weapons, story-wise they took a back seat in the content, but gained something the previous relics didn't: relevance past their expansions. The Eureka weapons will always be useful when doing Eureka zones thanks to the elemental bonusses. Which to me will be crucial if you want to solo Eureka come 5.0.

In 5.0 they should expand on that trait for the new exploratory content. In fact, expand on the horizontal progression aspect of the content in general.

Something being useful for soon to be dead content isn't a check towards that content being good. Doesn't even expand the relevancy of that thing because it'll only be useful in dead content.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Something being useful for soon to be dead content isn't a check towards that content being good. Doesn't even expand the relevancy of that thing because it'll only be useful in dead content.

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As oppose to the zodiac and anima weapons being nothing more than something shiny to gawk at that is still a boring slog. I consider that as an improvement, but I digress.

Your statement wasn't what I was alluding to. A lot of people can make use of the weapons for Eureka grinding for money making purposes. Or just for fun. I wonder if it'll possible to solo Skoll come ShB.

There are practical uses for the weapons when the next expansion rolls in. You can't say that for the others.

In response to the OP....on page 65! Go figure!

Honestly, given that released content:

-Requires funding, effort, and resources.

-Requires people to actually take advantage of it for there to actually be a point to it.

...and also given that...

-Everybody has different tastes and goals while playing MMOs.

-Even the most dead content has some people taking advantage of it, even if it's a whopping 3 people on your data-center.

...then the conclusion is...

What really matters here is distribution, supply, and demand. Even if Eureka is not liked by 99.999% of the player-base, I'm fine with it being in the game if does not hinder the creation of other content, hence an example of an abundance of supply and balanced distribution. How SE would go about doing that, I have no idea.

So we got this in HW:

1. 18 dungeons
2. 7 story trials
3. 7 extreme trials
4. 3 24m raids
5. 12 story raids
6. 12 savage raids
7. The Feast
8. Seal Rock
9. Shatter
10. LoV
11. 1 instance zone(taken down and revamped at later date)
12. Hall of the Novice
13. Garo Crossover
14. Yokai Crossover
15. 3 Beast tribes
16. 3 jobs
17. PotD 200 floors
18. 1 custom delievery npc
19. Anima questline
20. Aquapolis
21. Squadrons
22. Templeleves
23. Airships
24. Aertherial wheel
25. Orchestrian
26. Flying

In Sb we got:

1. 15 dungeons
2. 8 story trials
3. 8 extreme trials
4. 3 24m Raids
5. 12 story raids
6. 12 savage raids
7. 2 ultimate raids
8. Astragalos
9. Hidden Gorge
10. Mahjong
11. 2 GS gates
12. Fashion Report
13. MHW collab
14. FF15 collab
15. 3 beast tribes
16. 2 jobs
17. 1 limited job
18. 4 instance zones(BA is included with Hydatos so its here)
19. HoH 100 floors
20. Doman Reconstruction
21. 3 custom deliveries
22. Canals of Uzanir
23. Hidden Canals of Uzanir
24. Squadron command missions
25. Submarines
26. Glamour Dresser
27. Swimming

So from HW to SB we gained(+) and we lost(-) was:

1. - 3 dungeons
2. + 1 story trial
3. + 1 extreme trial
4. + 2 ultimate raids
5. - 1 PVP mode
6. + 3 instance zones
7. - 1 full job
8. + 1 limited job
9. - 100 PotD style floors
10. + 2 custom delievery npcs
11. - 1 Relic questline
12. + 2 map areas(we had 1 reskin and 2 additional afterwards)
13. - battleleves
14. + 2 GS gates

Most everything else cancels each other out now these lists do not include every item/mount/minion/msq/sidequests just the bigger features of each expansion(if they were talked about at live letters/shown in trailers as features). As a whole SB has offered more content to players but it did take things away it is whether what was taken away was worth what we gained as a result and that is down to each individual themselves to assess but factually we got more content with SB than HW and we haven't finished updating SB yet(Yojimbo may or may not have trial so not included until we know if it does).

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Originally Posted by Auryan

I just recently finished my AST's anima weapon and realized that besides the cute story, there just isn't a whole lot of content attached to it. The "content" is just grinding tomes and trials. All of that for just glamour. But it looks nice though. Even in late HW the animas were mostly just for looks.

With the the Eureka weapons, story-wise they took a back seat in the content, but gained something the previous relics didn't: relevance past their expansions. The Eureka weapons will always be useful when doing Eureka zones thanks to the elemental bonusses. Which to me will be crucial if you want to solo Eureka come 5.0.

In 5.0 they should expand on that trait for the new exploratory content. In fact, expand on the horizontal progression aspect of the content in general.

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I don't really want to need extra gear sets just in case I decide I need something from obsolete content. The gear will be required for soloing Eureka, but it's not really a positive gain so much as preventing a catastrophic failure of content that has outlived its prime. It's not really a gain for the artifact weapons in any case. ARR was the peak and they've been degraded each expansion since.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I don't really want to need extra gear sets just in case I decide I need something from obsolete content. The gear will be required for soloing Eureka, but it's not really a positive gain so much as preventing a catastrophic failure of content that has outlived its prime. It's not really a gain for the artifact weapons in any case. ARR was the peak and they've been degraded each expansion since.

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I consider usage other than just pretty colors as a positive gain, yes.
Pfft! ARR relic was and still is the worst of the three. Those horrible books and terrible Atmas easily put it down at the bottom of the list.

All of that for a piece of vanity. Call Eureka whatever label you want, at least the weapons and gear provide further use. You can't pretend that the zodiac and anima weapons offer that. They are just pretty, dead weights in your armoury and retainer slots.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

So from HW to SB we gained(+) and we lost(-) was:

1. - 3 dungeons
2. + 1 story trial
3. + 1 extreme trial
4. + 2 ultimate raids
5. - 1 PVP mode
6. + 3 instance zones
7. - 1 full job
8. + 1 limited job
9. - 100 PotD style floors
10. + 2 custom delievery npcs
11. - 1 Relic questline
12. + 2 map areas(we had 1 reskin and 2 additional afterwards)
13. - battleleves
14. + 2 GS gates

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Yet, some claim they have nothing to do now anymore because Eureka took everything. I bet it's the PVP mode or battle leaves that was the deal breaker.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

I consider usage other than just pretty colors as a positive gain, yes.
Pfft! ARR relic was and still is the worst of the three. Those horrible books and terrible Atmas easily put it down at the bottom of the list.

All of that for a piece of vanity. Call Eureka whatever label you want, at least the weapons and gear provide further use. You can't pretend that the zodiac and anima weapons offer that. They are just pretty, dead weights in your armoury and retainer slots.

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The extra functionality you're so keen on is only even useful because Eureka was poorly designed. Instead of extra functionality to make the weapon more exciting, they should have just designed Eureka with the inevitable downturn in participation in mind. That weapon is only available to you, especially in the upgraded form that will allow you to solo things, after you've pretty thoroughly exhausted Eureka and likely have little reason to return unless you really want another glamour piece. It's not going to help people who go through Eureka for the first time next expansion. It's like celebrating having a crutch because you need it to walk after shooting yourself in the foot for no reason.

Reducing the other relics to mere "vanity" is obviously unfair as well. Sure, they're just glamour now, but that's most of the gear in this game, and glamour is also about the only reason you'd ever get any use out of your Eureka weapon's extra functionality. At the time, they were BiS (random Diadem drops aside). If you just want free glamour pieces, there are plenty of ways to add those without degrading the relic weapons.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

That weapon is only available to you, especially in the upgraded form that will allow you to solo things, after you've pretty thoroughly exhausted Eureka and likely have little reason to return unless you really want another glamour piece. It's not going to help people who go through Eureka for the first time next expansion.

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Almost as if the Raid weapon is only dropped after you already beat every floor of the raid...I guess it must be badly designed too.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

At the time, they were BiS (random Diadem drops aside). If you just want free glamour pieces, there are plenty of ways to add those without degrading the relic weapons.

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Except that, if you go up to the final weapon/armor, those will always be the best items in all four zones of Eureka, allowing you to farm other Eureka gear faster, as opposed to the previous relic being overshadowed by merchant gear in old content or being ilvl synced back to where you started in current content.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

The extra functionality you're so keen on is only even useful because Eureka was poorly designed. Instead of extra functionality to make the weapon more exciting, they should have just designed Eureka with the inevitable downturn in participation in mind. That weapon is only available to you, especially in the upgraded form that will allow you to solo things, after you've pretty thoroughly exhausted Eureka and likely have little reason to return unless you really want another glamour piece. It's not going to help people who go through Eureka for the first time next expansion. It's like celebrating having a crutch because you need it to walk after shooting yourself in the foot for no reason.

Reducing the other relics to mere "vanity" is obviously unfair as well. Sure, they're just glamour now, but that's most of the gear in this game, and glamour is also about the only reason you'd ever get any use out of your Eureka weapon's extra functionality. At the time, they were BiS (random Diadem drops aside). If you just want free glamour pieces, there are plenty of ways to add those without degrading the relic weapons.

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Eureka already has a built-in feature to deal with the future drought of players doing it. All FATEs are scaled to the number of people currently in the instance. If you're the sole person in a zone, you'll likely not run into any problems with most NMs. Boss and rare NMs probably being the exceptions, but with the right job and logo actions I doubt that even they will be impossible. And they will likely nerf it further as well as change BA to compensate for the lack of people.

And like I said earlier, the gear and weapons will help with farming gil, glamour items, mounts and for just silly nonsense. Just because the gear and weapons are no longer needed for max lvl content doesn't mean I or anyone else can't have fun with it. Not everything has to be max lvl to be meaningful. It's like BLU all over again.

I got my lux weapons during HW and they were, in my opinion, too little and too late for the amount of work you put in for them. Especially considering that the tomestone weapons rivaled it and can be gotten for a much less time investment and effort. The anima weapons almost felt superfluous.This is why they needed to change the relic system in order for it to not be as pointless come SB. Well executed it or not, I consider the Eureka weapons having a longer lasting importance than those purple glamour weapons.

BiS only really matters to people that do Savage content. For most people, the highest ilvl will suffice.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

Whats wrong about the Dev team trying to make new, entertaining content? Werent people complaining about the same formular actually and want things spiced up a bit?

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Its fine that they try new, entertaining content. The problem is, that not much is truly new and seemingly also not that entertaining to quite some players. Only 18% of the JP playerbase (the one that normally tries to do everything a game has to offer as Yoshida once stated, that is why they also have more people that are raiding) have reached level cap at Pyros in February. So the majority of the JP players did not bother to reach the level cap. This is even worse for NA and EU.

The only new things in it are the public dungeon and the logos system (and maybe that useless elemental wheel thing), everything else is just fates and hunts. Its for a reason why people call it Diadem 3.0.

So yes try something new SE but really new...not sticking fates in a new area and tossing some useless other systems on top of that.

Also at least for me, this was way too big for an experiment. Why not try out one new zone with the logos system and the public dungeon at the end? Why four whole new zones for something which they dont even know how successful it would be? (And which makes it even harder to catch up because if you want to try out the public dungeon you have to go through four zones before that..) Especially in a game that already produces less dungeons per expansion and that cant do a lot of things because of missing workers and budget. We dont know the cost for Eureka but it could not have been cheap, just those four zones alone did probably take some time and budget.

Ok. I’ll take your points and admit that I didn’t not have any data proff, other then a lot of ppl complaining on my server and LSs. Honestly I’ve tried in every zone to do the area as intended; I’ll try and make groups on PF and in instance and they’ll usually fall apart at most an hour at best! I really don’t like Eureka and I don’t understand what ppl like about it, bc from my experience all I’ve ever done is shout for a party every 15 mins while waiting at bunny fate. I want to do more.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Almost as if the Raid weapon is only dropped after you already beat every floor of the raid...I guess it must be badly designed too.

Except that, if you go up to the final weapon/armor, those will always be the best items in all four zones of Eureka, allowing you to farm other Eureka gear faster, as opposed to the previous relic being overshadowed by merchant gear in old content or being ilvl synced back to where you started in current content.

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Gear has no value except as a progression tool, so a 405 weapon being handed out only after you complete the end boss of the terminal raid of the expansion is kind of a waste.

And Eureka gear isn't a relic weapon, so I'm not really sure why you're bringing that up. I am talking about my displeasure for the SB relic weapon. You can still have Eureka nonsense even if that particular nonsense isn't the relic. They could have just as easily tossed 380 weapons on a vendor like they did with armor.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Gear has no value except as a progression tool, so a 405 weapon being handed out only after you complete the end boss of the terminal raid of the expansion is kind of a waste.

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Yes, and it worked that way since the very beginning. Worse, lots of J-RPG tend to give you the most powerful after you've beaten the most powerful making all of them bragging rights rewards. You should be used to that.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

And Eureka gear isn't a relic weapon, so I'm not really sure why you're bringing that up. I am talking about my displeasure for the SB relic weapon.

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The final relic weapon will still retain all of its value in Eureka instead of being overshadowed by the Garlean merchant comes 5.0. Previous relics didn't have that benefit.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, and it worked that way since the very beginning. Worse, lots of J-RPG tend to give you the most powerful after you've beaten the most powerful making all of them bragging rights rewards.

The final relic weapon will still retain all of its value in Eureka instead of being overshadowed by the Garlen merchant comes 5.0. Previous relics didn't had that benefit.

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Yes, I understand that, but there's no reason that had to be the relic weapon or that having that means it had to be garbage in every other regard. You guys are acting like it has to be a choice between a good story, unique content, and investment for an actually useful weapon and having some extra stats in obsolete content.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

You guys are acting like it has to be a choice between a good story, unique content, and investment for an actually useful weapon and having some extra stats in obsolete content.

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For me, it's just that past relics were exactly the same, minus the unique content, which was my main gripe about them. So Eureka adressed this, even if it has its set of flaws.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The final relic weapon will still retain all of its value in Eureka instead of being overshadowed by the Garlean merchant comes 5.0. Previous relics didn't have that benefit.

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What value? It'll be replaced in 5.0 by vendor trash or some good dungeon drop just like every other relic weapon, and it has just as much value as a glamour as any other relic weapon--probably less because of how lackluster they look.

In fact, ARR relics did have value in HW because they could be exchanged for the first stage of the HW relic, which resulted in so many complaints about it that they scrapped that plan for SB.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

What value? It'll be replaced in 5.0 by vendor trash or some good dungeon drop just like every other relic weapon, and it has just as much value as a glamour as any other relic weapon--probably less because of how lackluster they look.

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No. Like I said, if you complete the final step of the Eureka weapon, it will most likely always be the strongest weapon in Eureka, allowing you to basically speedrun, if not solo, any future Eureka weapon after that. On the opposite, buying a level 58 weapon from an NPC will make you stronger on all ARR and HW content that the corresponding relics there. And that's before considering that they might reuse the elemental level and magia board in 5.x, to not let this whole system go to waste.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No. Like I said, if you complete the final step of the Eureka weapon, it will most likely always be the strongest weapon in Eureka, allowing you to basically speedrun, if not solo, any future Eureka weapon after that. On the opposite, buying a level 58 weapon from an NPC will make you stronger on all ARR and HW content that the corresponding relics there. And that's before considering that they might reuse the elemental level and magia board in 5.x, to not let this whole system go to waste.

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Im pretty sure they said thats not going to happen. This is the end of "eureka" whatever they do next will be "eureka" like but separate. It would kind of have to be or else eureka would be mandatory for what ever comes next. Whatever you think of those systems you cant really gate new content behind eureka it would be a road block for new players going forward or even people who didn't like this content but would like to at least see if they can like the next version.

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Originally Posted by Aurturia

Im pretty sure they said thats not going to happen. This is the end of "eureka" whatever they do next will be "eureka" like but separate. It would kind of have to be or else eureka would be mandatory for what ever comes next. Whatever you think of those systems you cant really gate new content behind eureka it would be a road block for new players going forward or even people who didn't like this content but would like to at least see if they can like the next version.

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First, you could easily create an explanation of why another zone has disturbed aether, justifying the elemental level. Second, you could make quests that rewards magicite aside from their basic reward for people to catch up their Magia Board. Finally, it would be easy to include something in ShadowBringers, explaining that you could gain elemental XP (up to level 60), every time you gain regular Xp, allowing for everyone to catch up without having to set foot in Eureka.

For me, there's really no point in creating another type of leveling (Which I'm fairly confident the next exploration will have), if you can simply expand on an existing one. And FFXIV is the King of catch-up mechanics :)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

First, you could easily create an explanation of why another zone has disturbed aether, justifying the elemental level. Second, you could make quests that rewards magicite aside from their basic reward for people to catch up their Magia Board. Finally, it would be easy to include something in ShadowBringers, explaining that you could gain elemental XP (up to level 60), every time you gain regular Xp, allowing for everyone to catch up without having to set foot in Eureka.

For me, there's really no point in creating another type of leveling (Which I'm fairly confident the next exploration will have), if you can simply expand on an existing one. And FFXIV is the King of catch-up mechanics :)

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Except the fact that if the Elemental Weapon retains use in this new "Eureka" content then people will see that as a "You NEED Elemental Weapon" because it will be BiS for grinding through the new content.

So, either Eureka would be considered mandatory because you need to grind out your full Relic before you start doing the new "Eureka" (Especially if people start being people and only party with players whom have Eureka relics), or you implement a catch up mechanic that allows players to get a weapon on par with the full Eureka Relic and thus invalidate the Eureka relic back to being only useful for dead content and glamour (Which is the true end-game, as that's the only reason to have BiS gear unless you're weird like me and run content for the content >.>)

This would be the case if they continued to use many of the same systems as Eureka. To say nothing about farming Logos actions, the additional Magia board unlocks (Unless they don't stack with the new "Catch-up" ones).

Basically, if they don't let the system go to waste, it's quite likely that it will have detrimental effects such as making people need to clear Eureka before they can even start participating in new "Eureka"

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Originally Posted by Kalise

So, either Eureka would be considered mandatory because you need to grind out your full Relic before you start doing the new "Eureka" (Especially if people start being people and only party with players whom have Eureka relics)

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Sure, as mandatory as being max level in any Eureka zone because no one in their right mind would ever invite in their party someone who is 10 levels below and thus, so mathematically considerably weaker, right ?

At this point, I'm starting to think we've played Eureka in two parrallel universes, because every situation you describe is the complete opposite of what I've experienced in this content.


And it's really time this community starts to learn the difference between "best" and "mandatory" because FFXIV already has a mathematically best gear, and neither the Duty Finder nor the Party Finder exploded because of that.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sure, as mandatory as being max level in any Eureka zone because no one in their right mind would ever invite in their party someone who is 10 levels below and thus, so mathematically considerably weaker, right ?

At this point, I'm starting to think we've played Eureka in two parrallel universes, because every situation you describe is the complete opposite of what I've experienced in this content.


And it's really time this community starts to learn the difference between "best" and "mandatory" because FFXIV already has a mathematically best gear, and neither the Duty Finder nor the Party Finder exploded because of that.

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they will not continue with eureka, what they mention is fairly accurate.

either they give everyone everything you get by the end of eureka easily, or they can't do it. And if they give people all that stuff easily, its basically the same as starting from scratch, except for logograms i guess, because those are gameplay tools.

But they could just keep logograms in that case.


the eureka like content is most likely to start new.

Relics can burn for all I care, it's a endgame thing for those that really want to do the hardest raids in the game.

If that was all there were to it, then fine, but I'm a old fan of Final Fantasy who plays the game for the lore, plot and story, and I am really angry they put on something so important behind a relic quest, I mean, it explains why a freaking Island/continent disappeared from the planet, WHAT THE HELL MAN!??

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Originally Posted by Physic

they will not continue with eureka, what they mention is fairly accurate.

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You don't need to be in Eureka to reuse the Elemental level or the magia board. And you can rename every "Eureka" effects to "Elemental" effects if you wish to activate them elsewhere.

The only thing mandatory to finish Eureka is elvl 60, and that would be easily doable if you could reach that elevel outside of Eureka. Everything else is completely optionnal.
Complains in this thread specifically pointed out how Eureka gear can be completely skipped, and lvl80 regular gear will most likely be enough to kill anything, like lvl70 regular gear is to complete Eureka.

Also, keep in mind that finishing PoTD story is mandatory to enter HoH, so they don't really shy from bonding two content of the same type, even if they don't have to be related.

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Originally Posted by alexander_morys

and I am really angry they put on something so important behind a relic quest, I mean, it explains why a freaking Island/continent disappeared from the planet, WHAT THE HELL MAN!??

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They put the story behind the leveling process, not behind the relic. You can reach the end without touching your weapon or armor.

While i do not enjoy Eureka like at all... i do not think it should be condemned as some actually enjoy it.
I do however not think Relic should be tied to Eureka only, those of us who do not like Eureka should have other options otherwise what else is their to do?
I have always done Relics up until now, Eureka has caused me to not even go past Anemos.

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Originally Posted by Maero

While i do not enjoy Eureka like at all... i do not think it should be condemned as some actually enjoy it.
I do however not think Relic should be tied to Eureka only, those of us who do not like Eureka should have other options otherwise what else is their to do?
I have always done Relics up until now, Eureka has caused me to not even go past Anemos.

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At the same time many of us did not like the old way of doing relics in ARR and HW which were mostly just a way to force players to replay old content either by requiring specific trials, duties, and fates. Or endlessly grind trials repeatedly for light. It was far more tedious, boring, and time consuming. Especially if you did those relic steps when they were first added before it was nerfed repeatedly. As it stands now the only mandatory light farm for the SB relic is in Pagos. If you just want a glamour later when Shadowbringers launches you can skip light farm in Pyros completely because farming sub stats are optional.

Additionally the ARR and HW relics were easier to leech because of this. I recall countless occasions of people literally decorating the floor nearly the entire trial on these. Many that literally didn't even move from the spot they loaded in at when the trial started. Eureka forces these players to be a bit more attentive.

However I feel like there are a lot of people here that seem to think the game needs to cater to them specifically or that SE needs to use their wants or preferences as the standard to base the game off of. However there are all types of people playing this game and as such it requires variety of content. There are certain types of content in this game I don't particularly care for however I don't ask SE to delete it or never make anything else like it. I also don't condemn it completely and will go back to it on occasion for a change of pace in game. A majority of my dislikes in this game aren't even something SE can fix because it has to do with certain parts of the playerbase and not the game itself.

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Originally Posted by alexander_morys

Relics can burn for all I care, it's a endgame thing for those that really want to do the hardest raids in the game.

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Only problem with Relics is that they are irellevant at the time they become available. Its like in FF15. you get the strongest Weapons AFTER you actually need them. Kinda meh.

Eureka is basically is fate grinding and light farming with some added elements.
And i never asked to be catered to i stated that we should options for both and not tie it strictly to Eureka, having different options would be nice.
Relic which is/should be something more personal (like it has always been up until now) just does not feel that way anymore.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Eureka is basically is fate grinding and light farming with some added elements.
And i never asked to be catered to i stated that we should options for both and not tie it strictly to Eureka, having different options would be nice.
Relic which is/should be something more personal (like it has always been up until now) just does not feel that way anymore.

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I seriously doubt there will be more than one path to relic be it Eureka or another method. The content needs to be focused for participation. That's not to say there can't be a mix of instanced open world experiences along with dungeons etc. I suspect we'll find out soon enough what they have in mind.

I've made my views pretty clear I think that I'm happy they gave us something new and not simply a rehash of the same old tired content we've run innumerable times.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I seriously doubt there will be more than one path to relic be it Eureka or another method. The content needs to be focused for participation. That's not to say there can't be a mix of instanced open world experiences along with dungeons etc. I suspect we'll find out soon enough what they have in mind.

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I don't think it's a particularly huge stretch in order to allow for multiple paths to a relic.

So long as they, you know, actually flesh out content properly.

Given that a vast majority of the 2.0 and 3.0 Relic grinds were "Just buy a bunch of X with Tomestones", there's no reason they couldn't make the new Relics still be focused heavily around "Just buy a bunch of X with Tomestones". Thus allowing people to now spam Dungeons, Trials, Roulettes, Raids, Eureka etc. In order to grind tomestones to purchase X with to advance the Relic.

Heck, you could even do some cool things such as when it comes to getting the stat distribution on the weapon, having the ability to use 'Eureka' or 'HoH' content items to put the stats on, while also adding on content specific stats such as the Eureka relics Elemental Bonus. Like, it's still the same weapon. Just, depending on how you decided to grind for it, it gains stats that are relevant for said content.

Again, the only issue they'd have to overcome, is the need to create an end-reward for "Eureka" content that would entice players to actually participate in said content, to go through the level grinds required to progress through the zones and to give meaning to the FATE Trains that makes up much of the experience.

Basically, some sort of grind reward that is less intensive than the Relic but still pulls players that enjoy Eureka to the content even if they don't care to grind for the Relic also.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Given that a vast majority of the 2.0 and 3.0 Relic grinds were "Just buy a bunch of X with Tomestones", there's no reason they couldn't make the new Relics still be focused heavily around "Just buy a bunch of X with Tomestones". Thus allowing people to now spam Dungeons, Trials, Roulettes, Raids, Eureka etc. In order to grind tomestones to purchase X with to advance the Relic.

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I think this would be a particularly bland way to combine the content. I'd be more in favor of having a storyline for the relic wherein the items to upgrade are found within Eureka-like content but can also be purchased with tomestones if people prefer that path (and also beast tribe coins, etc). This could be done with something along the lines of "seeking a rare item, found within a mysterious land. (insert description of item and/or its lore) It's possible that others may have come across this and would be willing to trade it... for the right price of course." So the player has the option to farm the item(s) needed within Eureka-like content or grind tomestones. The story of the relic could remain intact and the different paths would be available.

For light farming, it could be about harnessing the power of the relic and/or its surrounding content. So you'd have the option of either equipping the weapon and grinding light in old content (dungeons, etc) or grinding in the new Eureka-like content.

I just really think that the relic questline could easily cater to both crowds while maintaining a consistent structure and lore.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

I don't think it's a particularly huge stretch in order to allow for multiple paths to a relic.

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There won't be two separate paths. There might be a combination of different options, new and old, but separate and equal I highly doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Brynne

I think this would be a particularly bland way to combine the content.

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It would be consistent with previous Relics though.

Where the lore was always "We need this really rare item" then it happens that Rowena, the person that has everything for sale, has the item and is willing to sell it.

It also makes things fair. If you had to purchase with Tomestones, every item, then you'd be limited to your weekly cap irregardless of which type of content you do. Which means everyone is gated the same way and as such, won't feel "Pressured" into doing the "Most efficient" content.

Which is one of the main issues with more freedom of content, is that people don't like feeling pressured into grinding the most efficient stuff, which is why there are so many complaints about 2.0/3.0 light farms because people "Spammed Trials/Tam-Tara" as it was the most efficient way of farming the light in a short amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Brynne

I just really think that the relic questline could easily cater to both crowds while maintaining a consistent structure and lore.

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Again, tomestone purchases are consistent. Rowena has items, you purchase items, you give items to Gerolt (Who's in debt with Rowena), Gerolt makes you a fancy weapon (To pay off his debt).

This has been consistent since HW (In ARR he wasn't in debt with Rowena, at least not heavily enough to be coerced into working on your weapon. He just wanted to make his kettles to pay her back)

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

There won't be two separate paths. There might be a combination of different options, new and old, but separate and equal I highly doubt it.

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Note that most of my suggestion actually had a single path. One in which you buy items with Tomestones.

How you earn those Tomestones are up to you.

As far as my side comment about the stats, well, it's no different to how ARR required you to gather up a bunch of Materia to put in. How you got those materia and which materia you used was up to you. Similar thing for Crystal Sands in HW where you had a plethora of items that could be traded in for the sand, from Scrips, to Leve loot, to raid items or stuff bought with poetics or even GC seals.

As such, it's not unprecedented for multiple ways to progress a single step. It's only this Eureka relic that has a singular path. Where the ONLY way to progress it is by farming Fates or Farming Light/Logos in the relevant zones.

So, something simple, like the items you use to put the stats on can also include content specific stats such as Elemental Bonus in Eureka or extra Equipment levels in HoH is not out of the question. As it would simply be a similar thing to how ARR's materia step worked, where you just need to apply a certain amount of X, Y or Z where X is found in Dungeons/Trials/Raids, Y is found in Eureka and Z is found in HoH and where Y grants additional Elemental Bonus in Eureka and Z grants an additional bonus in HoH.

Again, it's not hard to think of things like this, because, as it happens, both relics before SB literally worked this way, wherein you COULD progress a majority of their steps in different ways.

People like to complain about being "Shoehorned into farming old content" from ARR/HW relics but as it happened, specified duties actually made up a minority of their grinds. The majority of their grind was about gathering Tomestones and trading them to Rowena.

Even some of the non-specified duties could be bypassed by just instead spending Tomestones (Such as HW's Singing Clusters or ARR's Alexandrite which either required a daily level 50/60 Roulette or purchase via Tomestones)

How you got these tomestones, the game didn't care. Where you went to farm your Light, the game didn't care.

The fact that an argument against allowing progression on the Relic from outside of "Eureka" content is "They won't do multiple paths to the same item" just boggles the mind when literally, before Eureka, that was exactly the case, outside of like 2-3 steps of each Relic.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

The fact that an argument against allowing progression on the Relic from outside of "Eureka" content is "They won't do multiple paths to the same item" just boggles the mind when literally, before Eureka, that was exactly the case, outside of like 2-3 steps of each Relic.

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Have you considered that's because they specifically stopped doing that that they won't do it again ? And you can embellish it as much as you want, but farming tomestones is not "multiple paths", it's just tome farming, the things you do for almost every valuable piece of gear since the very beginning of ARR.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

It would be consistent with previous Relics though.

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Sure, but that doesn't mean it needs to happen.

A lot of the folks who like Eureka and dislike the previous relic progression methods have expressed discontent with grinding tomestones for relic upgrades. I remember reading that and thinking that grinding crystals or light wasn't really so different from tomestones... just a separate currency, really. I still think this is true. But it changes the feel of how the relic is progressed for them, and so I think that this tiny adjustment could do a lot to address those concerns. The items could be obtained with various currencies: crystals, tomestones, beast tribe currency, aetherpool grips, centurio seals, etc. Everyone can choose their preferred method of grinding. And while you could just make it all one currency that is rewarded from every form of grinding, it has been shown to have an impact on how people feel about the progression. That was what I wanted to get across.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

It also makes things fair. If you had to purchase with Tomestones, every item, then you'd be limited to your weekly cap irregardless of which type of content you do. Which means everyone is gated the same way and as such, won't feel "Pressured" into doing the "Most efficient" content.

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I dislike the weekly gating in the first place, so this is not a compelling argument to me. I see the necessity for it when it comes to content longevity, but in terms of relic progression steps, I'm not in favor. If someone wants to finish their weekly cap and then continue grinding for progress on their relic, they should be able to. People are going to feel "pressured" into "most efficient" paths regardless of how you structure this relic questline, unless ALL of the steps are tomestone-related (usually there is at least one stage that involves light grinding).

I actually assumed relic progression would be tied to the tomestones that DON'T have a weekly cap. The casual playerbase uses those tomestones for gear upgrades, since they're not getting the Savage pieces of equivalent ilvl. I'm not sure if this is how the ARR and HW relics did it, since I did not do them while they were relevant. I just assumed it'd be poetics, or the upper level uncapped tomes. I'd rather see another Eureka-like grind than using capped tomes for relic progression, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

So, something simple, like the items you use to put the stats on can also include content specific stats such as Elemental Bonus in Eureka or extra Equipment levels in HoH is not out of the question. As it would simply be a similar thing to how ARR's materia step worked, where you just need to apply a certain amount of X, Y or Z where X is found in Dungeons/Trials/Raids, Y is found in Eureka and Z is found in HoH and where Y grants additional Elemental Bonus in Eureka and Z grants an additional bonus in HoH.

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I think this is a great idea.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Have you considered that's because they specifically stopped doing that that they won't do it again ?

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Have you considered that's because they specifically wanted to push this content that has failed on both of their previous attempts?

Just because they stopped doing it doesn't necessarily mean that they will never do it again. Just as much as it can mean they will never do it again.

There exists a precedent were they allowed multiple ways to progress a Relic. Claiming outright that it will never happen again, without any proof such as a definite statement by the Developers is asinine.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And you can embellish it as much as you want, but farming tomestones is not "multiple paths", it's just tome farming, the things you do for almost every valuable piece of gear since the very beginning of ARR.

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Yeah, and it's "multiple paths" because you can farm tomes from multiple sources.

You're not stuck doing one single type of content. You can mix things up, or stick to a preferred type of content.

I also mentioned that it was a single path if you actually bothered to read my post. A single path that can be worked on in numerous ways. Including, but not exclusively, Eureka (Or Eureka-like content).

But alas, despite all your claims, Eureka is only worth it because the Relic is exclusive to it... At least, that is what is being suggested by the vehement that you try and defend Relic being a Eureka exclusive and try and find reasons why previous Relic design choices (I.e. Multiple ways to work towards the same goal, be it grinding Tomestones, Crystal Sands or even the Crafted Items in HW's relic that can be obtained via Grand Company Seals these days) cannot function.

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Originally Posted by Brynne

Sure, but that doesn't mean it needs to happen.

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Sure.

It's just low effort on the part of the developers. Given that Tomestones are consistently obtained through various means in end-game content. Even Eureka gives you plenty of Tomestones for participating in FATEs.

They could make the item(s) you farm different, potentially even having a system similar to HW's Crystal Sands where unique items from many sources get traded for the same item to upgrade the relic.

It's just easier to make it the currency that already exists in spades and is naturally put into the content that people would be farming.

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Originally Posted by Brynne

I dislike the weekly gating in the first place, so this is not a compelling argument to me.

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Sure, I get that.

It's merely a point that can be used to counter one of the arguments that gets brought up with talk of "Multiple ways to progress the Relic" wherein people think it's going to mean stuff like farming Tam-Tara for hours to gain Light because that's the most efficient for them so that's what they feel pressured to do.

You can gate people by time so they all progress at the same rate. At least, initially, you can always later in the expansion then change the Tomestones required for earlier steps to the uncapped variant.

The other aspect of this, is that it also means you can make the Relic weapon more relevant as an actual weapon throughout an expansion, rather than only being notable when complete after all of the content has already been out for a while. Due to spending an actually relevant resource to upgrade it.

Of course, you can always do the half measure such as having the Relic tomestones being a different set of capped ones than those used by casuals to purchase their gear upgrades. So you have a Genesis cap and then a unique set of tomestones for relic with their own cap (That makes sense).

Again, this time-gating only serves a purpose if trying to prevent people from feeling like they "Have" to grind content they dislike to keep up with other people working on the Relic.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Again, this time-gating only serves a purpose if trying to prevent people from feeling like they "Have" to grind content they dislike to keep up with other people working on the Relic.

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You'd need to gate every step, including light grinds, in order to eliminate this problem. As long as there are multiple ways to progress, there will be a "most efficient" way to do it that people will find as soon as they can.

They could gate everything, but I'd rather they didn't. Gear progression is already gated by time. I'm fine with the relic being gated only by when each new progression step is released. It gives the players with more time to spend in the game something to work at when they've hit the other time gates.