#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

The thing is DF healers aren’t any worse than any other role it’s just that there is 2 lynchpin roles in a party and only one lynchpin role has an inbuilt 80% damage reduction

Healers are seen as pathetic for failure, tanks aren’t allowed to fail

The adds in the first boss of that dungeon dont even deal real damage. You have to moth into the exaflares to die as non-tank. It's an excellent encouragement to not get hit by mechanics and it's one of the better designed bosses in dungeons in general but the damage output isnt high.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

If they added dps 123 for healer then theyde just be green dps. Instead we should be aiming to make healing better so that theyre not just standing around 11111 spamming. If u just make them a green dps savage and ex could wind up being to hard. Not to mention the casual 99% will quit the role

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I think you misunderstood so I'll clarify real quick if you don't mind

In both my previous posts I suggested making the 11111 gameplay into 11111 gameplay (but it looks different) not actual 123 gameplay

Same damage, one button over and over, different animations
I think this is boring but still less boring than it currently is

And even though I'd like something more interesting than that, I'm not asking for healers to get a 123 on 3 separate DPS buttons, I'm asking for more interesting interactions between the current buttons that don't require people in casual content to do anything different than they already doing, so again, I'm asking to keep 11111 and just make it more interesting. Maybe my DOT procs an occasional instant broil or something. Not that I need more movement, but I'm sure you can agree that a change like that is not going to make casuals quit the role or make harder content even harder.

If you want more healing checks to make the role interesting, I'm all for it, especially in a game where Tanking is also boring (let's go Tank Strike) and face rolly to the point of absurdity, a lot of healers want to heal more and I think that's great, a lot of healers also want something more interesting than 11111 and people seem to think that can only mean turning them into a full DPS as we traditionally think of them and I disagree, you're not thinking creatively enough, but even if someone does want that, why can't one of the healers be exactly that. GNB is supposed to be that for Tanks. And they also had to get their second combo turned into 1 button, and it was a good change. It's still fun to use. You can balance that archetype just fine.

I'm not asking for anything that makes the job harder!
I don't want to make the job harder!

I'm asking for things that make it more interesting in content as low as haukke manor or temple of qarn for example, meaning it would really help it it was part of the core job design and rotation early on!

Freecure is a joke on WHM but if it was on Cure 2 I think it would be a joke people smiled about instead of groaning at. It sucks because it's on Cure 1. It would still suck on Cure 2 because it barely ever procs but then it would

1) be interesting and make me smile when it procs
2) no longer be a trap that tricks people into using Cure 1 when they aren't having MP issues (remember managing MP)

At least Physick on Scholar has actual uses even though the average person is convinced that it's Adlo or bust

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The thing is DF healers aren’t any worse than any other role it’s just that there is 2 lynchpin roles in a party and only one lynchpin role has an inbuilt 80% damage reduction

Healers are seen as pathetic for failure, tanks aren’t allowed to fail

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Then why not demand a nerf on tanks instead of a change on healer. We all know if it wasn't for war this wouldn't even be a problem

Also my bf dies in tender Valley a lot. As a healer. And when he dies its basically run over bevause of all the other stuff. I think this also happened in alexandria to bos 1. The only dng I was really able to cary on war was vanguard first and 3rd boss

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Then why not demand a nerf on tanks instead of a change on healer. We all know if it wasn't for war this wouldn't even be a problem

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It’s like the second point on the first post

Correction it’s literally the first point

Healers aren’t bad, they just look bad compared to a role that’s basically playing with cheat codes on

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Then why not demand a nerf on tanks instead of a change on healer. We all know if it wasn't for war this wouldn't even be a problem

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Why are you in here arguing when you have never read the summerized complaints in the opening post?

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

They're not going to get rid of tank solo sustain, it's there so tanks can carry even if the healer dies.

They're already giving dps healing/shield abilities to do something similiar.

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I am curious, as I haven't played the new ex dungeons yet: if the tank dies, for whatever reason, can one of the other party members tank without wiping?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s like the second point on the first post

Correction it’s literally the first point

Healers aren’t bad, they just look bad compared to a role that’s basically playing with cheat codes on

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Yea but the rest of the points and of the people shouting and yelling are because healers 11111 spam. So I think the lack of real conclusively is why the devs will not change anything. When instead just saying "nerf tank healing" would be easier for 99% of people to get behind and wouldn't come off elietist. Where as "healers are ez mode" yea u can see how it comes off

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Why are you in here arguing when you have never read the summerized complaints in the opening post?

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What is it they say about assume again?
It makes a something something of something something. Yea. Ur assuming. I did read them and I've been reading this thread for a while. And I'm noticing the complains aren't organised. Half of you want 1 thing half want the other. Because of this inconsistency the devs are unlikely to listen to either

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Yea but the rest of the points and of the people shouting and yelling are because healers 11111 spam. So I think the lack of real conclusively is why the devs will not change anything. When instead just saying "nerf tank healing" would be easier for 99% of people to get behind and wouldn't come off elietist. Where are "healers are ez mode" yea u can see how it comes off

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Because there is more than one problem with healer job design. It's not just tank self sustain. It's not just glarespam. Both is a problem and the combine to make an even worse problem: it's boring for people across all skill levels.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

What is it they say about assume again?
It makes a something something of something something. Yea. Ur assuming. I did read them and I've been reading this thread for a while. And I'm noticing the complains aren't organised. Half of you want 1 thing half want the other. Because of this inconsistency the devs are unlikely to listen to either

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Half of you call the strikers casual scrubs who should play harder content before speaking and half of you call them elitist scum who just want to gatekeep dungeons? Why dont you organize?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Because there is more than one problem with healer job design. It's not just tank self sustain. It's not just glarespam. Both is a problem and the combine to make an even worse problem: it's boring for people across all skill levels.

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They won't add complexity to healers rotations. I'd give that dream up now. If they did theyde alienate casuals from the role even further. Its probably better to demand a change to tanks instead aswell as more heal checks

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

They won't add complexity to healers rotations. I'd give that dream up now. If they did theyde alienate casuals from the role even further. Its probably better to demand a change to tanks instead aswell as more heal checks

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So would you say it's best to stop playing healer until something changes?

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Yea but the rest of the points and of the people shouting and yelling are because healers 11111 spam. So I think the lack of real conclusively is why the devs will not change anything. When instead just saying "nerf tank healing" would be easier for 99% of people to get behind and wouldn't come off elietist. Where as "healers are ez mode" yea u can see how it comes off

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The problem is that there is just more than one problem and different people push back against different things

For example, you tend to lean towards “nerfing tank sustain is fine” whereas I’ve debated others who said I’m not so many words “I’ll only support you if you don’t nerf any other role to achieve what you want”

Different facets of healer design have different problems for different people and proposed fixes anger different people, for example the tank forum would rather rip you apart than consider WAR’s healing is overtuned

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

They won't add complexity to healers rotations. I'd give that dream up now. If they did theyde alienate casuals from the role even further. Its probably better to demand a change to tanks instead aswell as more heal checks

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Which we have also had people on this thread tell us “healing checks will make the casuals abandon the role you are better off asking for more DPS”

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Because there is more than one problem with healer job design. It's not just tank self sustain. It's not just glarespam. Both is a problem and the combine to make an even worse problem: it's boring for people across all skill levels.



Half of you call the strikers casual scrubs who should play harder content before speaking and half of you call them elitist scum who just want to gatekeep dungeons? Why dont you organize?

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Because of 2 reasons. 1 those of us being toxic like that aren't trying to inact real change. So we don't have a horse in the race.

2. Quite simply I cannot controll the behaviour of people who are still in school. Nor should I be expected to

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The problem is that there is just more than one problem and different people push back against different things

For example, you tend to lean towards “nerfing tank sustain is fine” whereas I’ve debated others who said I’m not so many words “I’ll only support you if you don’t nerf any other role to achieve what you want”

Different facets of healer design have different problems for different people and proposed fixes anger different people, for example the tank forum would rather rip you apart than consider WAR’s healing is overtuned



Which we have also had people on this thread tell us “healing checks will make the casuals abandon the role you are better off asking for more DPS”

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That's because shb spoiled healers by giving them nothing to heal. Endwalker only made it worse. So now the healers are unwilling to adjust back to being about healing instead of dpsing. Where as 99% of mmo on the market will ask healers to heal and barley give them dps kits

Somehow giving healers a more complex damage rotation will alienate casuals but higher heal checks wont despite it being nearly impossible to wipe to a lack of damage dealt in casual content. Make it make sense.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Somehow giving healers a more complex damage rotation will alienate casuals but higher heal checks wont despite it being nearly impossible to wipe to a lack of damage dealt in casual content. Make it make sense.

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It's actually far from impossible. Maybe I'm just the *casual* here. But so far the dt dungeons heal checks have resulted in a LOT of wipes from either myself the healer deing. Or having nobody to share stack damage with. I think the new dungeon design is doing it ls job tbh and I would not say healers are obsolete in there. Perhaps in the future. But them there will still be the newer dungeons to do where they WONT be usless.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

That's because shb spoiled healers by giving them nothing to heal. Endwalker only made it worse. So now the healers are unwilling to adjust back to being about healing instead of dpsing. Where as 99% of mmo on the market will ask healers to heal and barley give them dps kits

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There is only slightly more damage in DT because of gear, people also did dead ends and haedalyn ex and declared healers fixed in EW. We all know where that went

And these days I can’t think of an MMO with a hard trinity that doesn’t encourage healers to DPS

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

It's actually far from impossible. Maybe I'm just the *casual* here. But so far the dt dungeons heal checks have resulted in a LOT of wipes from either myself the healer deing. Or having nobody to share stack damage with. I think the new dungeon design is doing it ls job tbh and I would not say healers are obsolete in there. Perhaps in the future. But them there will still be the newer dungeons to do where they WONT be usless.

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Yes it's possible to wipe from receiving too much damage. That's what I'm saying. It's not possible to lack due to a lack of healer dps. So why is giving healers a more complex damage rotation gakekeeping casuals but increasing heal checks, which you advocate for, not

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Originally Posted by Saraide

So would you say it's best to stop playing healer until something changes?

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No. That's utterly pointless. I personally hate the design of current tanks. But I still play them because I have things I want from the role. However. I'm aware if 99% of people suddenly stopped playing it or leveling it that the dev team would be forced to act. That's what happened to mch after all. But the reason I think it's pointless is because we can almost be 100% sure nothing will change till 8.0

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Yes it's possible to wipe from receiving too much damage. That's what I'm saying. It's not possible to lack due to a lack of healer dps. So why is giving healers a more complex damage rotation gakekeeping casuals but increasing heal checks, which you advocate for, not

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Bevause healers damage isn't an issue so there's no need to fix it. What a healer should do is heal. Not dps.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

There is only slightly more damage in DT because of gear, people also did dead ends and haedalyn ex and declared healers fixed in EW. We all know where that went

And these days I can’t think of an MMO with a hard trinity that doesn’t encourage healers to DPS

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None of us could have forseen how stupidly easy endwalker would become after endsinger. Tho it was given away after the 1st dungeon when all the rest had basically NO mecanics

The healers in wow have actual heals they need to do. Sure some of them do them through damage but the heal checks are actually viable

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

I mean I've cleared a handful of savages in my day
Shiva. Gaia. Hephaistos. And even I'm struggling with that boss. Literally cannot go a single run w/o 1 of them grabbing me. And I've tried to find safespots. Part of what makes it hard is the rest of the party running around cluttering your screen. Again btw the calca dolls do do unavoidable damage. I'm genuinely curious how tanks even get around that. Also last boss has a nasty raid wide dot

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Its normal, regardless of experience, that people get hit with new mechanics but when people get used to them that will happen less. I for example have been in several parties where 1 or more people dont get hit at all and alone the damage of 1 doll isnt that high either (+tanks can heal another person very efficiently)

Calca dolls arent really an issue, they deal around 5-6k damage per hit (so 10-12k if both are alive) unmitigated. Add the tank aoe mit and heals, the dps mit and heals and extra damage of dropping one healer for an extra dps and they die before they can become a problem

He's an example of the kind of stuff I want to look into, hopefully this will help my ideas scare people less who think I want ShB MNK rotation but with Healing in the background (oh I wish I could play you again and ShB SMN)

Art of War being one button > Art of War still being one button but it's a 3 hit pvp combo, the damage is exactly the same on every hit, making it indistinguishable from before in practice but cooler looking, however landing the 3rd hit on enemies who have a DOT on them will extend the DOT one time, 1 second for every enemy touched by the AOE that had a DOT on them (e.g. hit 5 enemies who have DOTs, they all get extended by 5 seconds)

No new button on your hotbar
No especially different rotation
Effect is useful but miniscule and situational meaning it shouldn't affect too many high end content rotations that aren't trash packs like in dungeons because it requires having a bunch of single target DOTs up and can only proc once per DOT before the DOT has to be manually refreshed, basically make it too much work to go out of the way to utilize for eeking out damage, except in the situation where it naturally occurs (large dungeon pull)
Would actually feel rewarding and interesting to use, running and dotting the enemies and deciding I need to stop and heal or AOE, picking the AOE and racing to get to the third hit for a DOT extension is cool

And I'll repeat this because I feel like it needs repeating: I am in no way with this hypothetical interaction suggesting that it become a necessary part of SCH gameplay, you could ignore it's entire existence and I hope dungeon content and other players would let you do so, that's clear right? That by suggesting this mechanic I'm not directly asking you to optimize your DOTs and AOEs or suggesting this become mandatory for all SCH players or that content should require it, right? That I'm asking to try changes that would be practically invisible to the average player?

I don't want to come across as "we can't try anything radically different" either because I'm all for that too, I do want much more interesting things, but the fact even changes that basically change nothing incite fear... I feel like I need to address that first lol.

And again, it's great that DT is working right now for some people, even though I agree it won't last, but again: what about the gameplay experience of all the content leading up to that?

Why is "the current content is satisfying" supposed to be good enough? The old content is not satisfying and it comes first and I have to replay it over and over and over to help other people get to the new content so they can try it.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

No. That's utterly pointless. I personally hate the design of current tanks. But I still play them because I have things I want from the role. However. I'm aware if 99% of people suddenly stopped playing it or leveling it that the dev team would be forced to act. That's what happened to mch after all. But the reason I think it's pointless is because we can almost be 100% sure nothing will change till 8.0



Bevause healers damage isn't an issue so there's no need to fix it. What a healer should do is heal. Not dps.

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How is increasing heal checks not gatekeeping?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

How is increasing heal checks not gatekeeping?

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The same way increasing dps checks isn't. It's your JOB. You sign up to heal when u play Healer XD. Jus like when I sign up for content as a dps I know ill be expected to dps.

Speaking of "healers should heal". Why do tanks have a damage rotation then. Why dont we remove all that and put provoke on a spammable GCD? Then tanks can focus on what they are meant do: tanking. That's good design, right?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

How is increasing heal checks not gatekeeping?

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If that's gatekeeping we have to consider having to have higher ilv for higher raid tiers and dungeons to also be gatekeeping.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

The same way increasing dps checks isn't. It's your JOB. You sign up to heal when u play Healer XD. Jus like when I sign up for content as a dps I know ill be expected to dps.

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I see you are just not willing to engage with reality today. There are functionally no dps checks in casual content because they would gatekeep.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Its normal, regardless of experience, that people get hit with new mechanics but when people get used to them that will happen less. I for example have been in several parties where 1 or more people dont get hit at all and alone the damage of 1 doll isnt that high either (+tanks can heal another person very efficiently)

Calca dolls arent really an issue, they deal around 5-6k damage per hit (so 10-12k if both are alive) unmitigated. Add the tank aoe mit and heals, the dps mit and heals and extra damage of dropping one healer for an extra dps and they die before they can become a problem

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The dps heals? Rangers and casters don't have that tho. Only melee and bloodbath. As for tank aoe heals. Only war has that. Unless ur running premade 3 melee I think this is literally not going to viable

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

No. That's utterly pointless. I personally hate the design of current tanks. But I still play them because I have things I want from the role. However. I'm aware if 99% of people suddenly stopped playing it or leveling it that the dev team would be forced to act. That's what happened to mch after all. But the reason I think it's pointless is because we can almost be 100% sure nothing will change till 8.0



Bevause healers damage isn't an issue so there's no need to fix it. What a healer should do is heal. Not dps.



None of us could have forseen how stupidly easy endwalker would become after endsinger. Tho it was given away after the 1st dungeon when all the rest had basically NO mecanics

The healers in wow have actual heals they need to do. Sure some of them do them through damage but the heal checks are actually viable

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This circles back to my point, I don’t necessarily agree with you but we’ve also spent 300 pages debating people who say that asking for more healing is pointless and you may as well ask for more damage as compensation

I’m saying this in a general way not against you sindri but everyone who has an idea of how to fix the strikes problems only seems to see their solution as the correct one as if we haven’t just spent 10 pages debating with someone who is also 100% sure the opposite solution will actually fix the problem

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I see you are just not willing to engage with reality today. There are functionally no dps checks in casual content because they would gatekeep.

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And there we go. Not agreeing with you isnt being detached from reality. It's just not accepting YOUR reality

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

And there we go. Not agreeing with you isnt being detached from reality. It's just not accepting YOUR reality

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Claiming dps checks and heal checks arent gatekeeping measures is detached from reality. This has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This circles back to my point, I don’t necessarily agree with you but we’ve also spent 300 pages debating people who say that asking for more healing is pointless and you may as well ask for more damage as compensation

I’m saying this in a general way not against you sindri but everyone who has an idea of how to fix the strikes problems only seems to see their solution as the correct one as if we haven’t just spent 10 pages debating with someone who is also 100% sure the opposite solution will actually fix the problem

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Putting multiple ideas into the mix isn't a bad thing tho. At least the devs will have many angles to come in from when they do finally do something about it
But personally as far as dt goes I think. What we have rn for healers is OK. We need to give the savages a chance to see how they'll feel. And yea tanks sustain needsa nerf I think at the point ud be pressed to find ppl not agreeing


I've hit my daily limit for today so gl to you all.

Fixing encounter alone won’t fix healers’ issue. Sure it’ll make progging fun maybe here & there. But give them few weeks & it’s joever, sweetie. Back to Glaroilficosis corner you go!

Healer Issue isn’t just “Pls fix A” ; it’s “Pls fix ABCDEFGHIJK+++”. Encounter being boring is only one. Now let’s trim something else.

There are actually a lot of people who dont want warrior nerfed because they want to be able to solo dungeons.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

The same way increasing dps checks isn't. It's your JOB. You sign up to heal when u play Healer XD. Jus like when I sign up for content as a dps I know ill be expected to dps.

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Question

If you have to heal more, because there are more heal checks, you have to press more buttons, right? What is the difference between pressing more buttons to heal or DPS?

Like why is pressing more buttons to damage gatekeeping the role but pressing more buttons to heal not gatekeeping the role?

Basically, is it about pressing buttons or is it about something else, because I'm lost as to what the difference really is, especially with my examples that keep the 11111211111 gameplay feel

Is it just "expectations" for the role? As in, playing healer and finding out you have to do a DPS rotation is gatekeeping the role from true healer mains or something? (Which even if you think that, why can't even 1 healer be different in that way)

Healing in this game is just bad anyway. everything about the role is poorly designed except maybe the animations.
I main healers in all MMOs I play because I enjoy the dance of managing my teams HP, balancing my damage and healing and keeping myself alive.

FF14 has none of these.
Most of the tanks and healers have strong group wide heals so I don't ever have to worry about healing, just throw out one of my absurdly powerful oGCDs every once a while. Even in new fights I rarely hardcast heals.
Balancing my damage and healing doesn't exist because the oGCD heals exist so I end up spamming my one damage button instead of ever thinking about this.
I don't even really have to worry about keeping myself alive tbh since if there's a RDM or SMN present I'll get revived if I die. Really none of these core gameplay styles to healers not being present is why I just don't heal in this game outside of BLU and Criterion.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

The dps heals? Rangers and casters don't have that tho. Only melee and bloodbath. As for tank aoe heals. Only war has that. Unless ur running premade 3 melee I think this is literally not going to viable

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Pct has a heal and a shield on top of addle, Rdm has 2 mits and we know its heal kit, smn has heals in phoenix, lunar and self shield on top of addle, blm has a self shield and addle. That for casters

All melees have second wind (which is buffed) and bloodbath (which is strong in aoe), on top of that sam had third eye and a self heal from there, mnk has a healing buff, nin has a self shield, cant remember drg now, rpr has an aoe regen and idk vpr

Phys ranged has an aoe mit and second wind and on top of that mch has an extra mit and dnc has a strong aoe heal

Tanks have standard tank stuff and on top of that both war and pld can heal in ale and drk and gnb can use their cds as a heal for other people

You can easily run a comp with 1 dps of each role and a tank and kill calca dolls before they are an issue because non healer sustain is at an all time high

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Putting multiple ideas into the mix isn't a bad thing tho. At least the devs will have many angles to come in from when they do finally do something about it
But personally as far as dt goes I think. What we have rn for healers is OK. We need to give the savages a chance to see how they'll feel. And yea tanks sustain needsa nerf I think at the point ud be pressed to find ppl not agreeing


I've hit my daily limit for today so gl to you all.

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I mean I agree with you but you’ll find that when we accept multiple avenues of change people call us indecisive and directionless

I think the biggest sin in healing is that it's just boring.
HW healing was a nightmare for me and I got so mad and frustrated that I punched holes in my wall and cried on A4S. (I was 13 pls ignore my dumbassness)
But when I healed in E1-5S I can't even remember any of it, I have literally zero recollection of what I did. I remember the mechanics vaguely but I don't ever remember how I healed through stuff or my healing plan. Simply because I didn't have one.
Honestly that's what makes me sad more than anything for healing, it's so boring that it's not even memorable anymore. I remember so much about my scholar gameplay from late ARR to mid SB.