Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW!

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Becuase of another thread that popped up here, I am curious as to if XI had vanity systems or not?

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Yes it does

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Becuase of another thread that popped up here, I am curious as to if XI had vanity systems or not?

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Now it does, but it didn't originally have anything like it (it was added in a recent update, like a lot of FFXIV stuff SE are adding to FFXI now in updates). Personally I think FFXI actually does glamour better than here, as it's not like FFXIV's glamour prisms, in XI it's called 'style lock' and is literally just a button in the Config menu you set, which locks your appearance to the appearance of whatever gear you happen to be wearing at that time (after setting Style Lock you can then change your gear to whatever you like and the gear appearance will remain static). This mostly works well, except for situations where an enemy uses an attack that deequips your gear (like Yagudo in Campaign battles), which deactivates the glamour frustratingly. But other than that it works very well, and most importantly, you can set your glamour whenever you feel like for no cost!

Either way, it was only something recently added to the game so for most of it's lifespan FFXI did not have such a system.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Greatest implementation of Final Fantasy summons/summoner ever.

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Until you wanted to get into a party for that whole leveling thing. Even then, unless you subbed WHM (and even then you where taken begrudgingly), you where treated like a leper.

These are some juicy posts.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Until you wanted to get into a party for that whole leveling thing. Even then, unless you subbed WHM (and even then you where taken begrudgingly), you where treated like a leper.

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Someone never got invited to SMN burns. :P


But anyway, point is to take the things that worked from XI and use that for inspiration. And as i've mentioned before, I would be 100% OK with them taking ideas from other games as well to help XIV out. The game needs it.

To set some things straight:

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Monsters were smart.

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Smart is probably not the right word, since it implies some sort of intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

They had groups. With skillfull play you could either pull one or two to the party or.. blow the pull and pull the whole zone equaling in a wipe in encounters. Each zone had enemies that were stronger than you and if you weren't clever in going around them or avoiding them taking their aggressive tendencies or into account, you could die or get one shotted, depending on the strength.

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Groups (where attacking one thing within a group meant you always got everything else) were rare and generally limited to instanced content.

What XI had, that XIV doesn't, was linking. For those who didn't play XI, linking meant that if something that linked by sight saw a mob within its family that was attacking a player, it would join the fight, even if it never saw the player themself. Similarly, something that linked by sound would join the fight if a mob within its family came within sound detection range of something that was attacking a player.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

<stuff about Skillchains and Magic Bursts>

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20101210065143

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I think this is one of those things that gets oversold a lot.

Yes, the skillchain chart is quite expansive, but (at least in the 75-cap era) the vast, vast majority of it was ignored. Experience parties, up to the late 60s, would usually try to set up a Distortion skillchain or, in rare cases, a Fragmentation skillchain (or Light/Dark at higher levels). Anyone not participating in the skillchain just fired off their weaponskills whenever and, at higher levels, skillchains happened only by coincidence, because everyone just used weaponskills as soon as they were available.

Similarly, magic bursts were either established at the start of the party (whatever higher tier casters had of ice or water for Distortion, or wind/thunder for Fragmentation) or, at higher levels, mostly ignored.

You certainly weren't using skillchains and magic bursts in most (if not all) of the 75-cap eras endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I am not even mentioning the sub job system. While it could allow you to solo things meant for full groups, it also allowed you to change you role or support role in instances besides the most difficult party content.

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But, as everyone who played XI knows, there were maybe three viable subjobs at the most for any job for 95%+ of the content in the game. Likely less than that if you exclude subjobs that were only viable for solo content.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Greatest implementation of Final Fantasy summons/summoner ever.

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Summoner

http://www.nephilim-x.com/images/ffxi_zilss3_02.jpg

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At best, that's an opinion, at worst, go look at the vast amounts of discussion from 2004-2008 where people lamented the fact that summoner was primarily reduced to a weaker white mage with a larger MP pool and a buff they could use every minute.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

FFXI is in its free time for the next couple weeks and here is what I see with it and why I wouldn't want them to bring those ideas to FFXIV.

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I saw that and like hmm I should check that out, they give you link to download game (cause have no clue where my original discs are) installed and launched it and got greeted with 7 hour update and was like NOPE!! and exited out and continue on my way doing other stuff cause I would spend more time updating then I would actually playing/checking out it current state.

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

snip

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Fizzle you love doing this dance. Its okay, I do also. Again like always, you say something is better, but you don't say why it is. Also you can't speak on behalf of everyone. Not everyone who started FFXIV came from FFXI. A lot actually came from other MMO's. How do you know exactly what they wanted? How do you know the mass majority wanted a game like FFXI? You can't just make stuff up for the sake of your argument. I am not going to say either what the majority wanted because I am not them either.

Also why not go play a WoW? Because they are two different games. FFXIV is established and not going anywhere in it's core fundamentals. People tell you to go back to FFXI because it's core is what you are looking for. Of course -some- ideas from FFXI could benefit this game, but the ideas I see are completely changing how the core of the system works. If you are not happy here, which many are at least with how the game works at it's core, then going back to FFXI is that option. If you really want some ideas from FFXI in here, then suggest how they can work in the context of this game.

@Ibi
Ok artificial intelligence.
I am confused, groups were all FFXI was pre 75, most content was open world.
Skillchains became less used because SE stopped making enemies with solid charcteristics and made enemies squishy. No sense SCing if enemies dies in one weaponskill.
Idk what era you played but vanilla XI SC were used all the time.
Exotic sub jobs were used in low man occasions, which is more than 5% of the game. Low man is what people did when not running traditional endgame. Where as here people do fates, minigames, or crafting.

At best that is a fact, at worse any qualms were with unbalanced sub jobs. As far as fun, I think in a poll of people who have played both. Most would say XI summoners are more fun and represent the iconic nature of summons which is colossal burst damage divine beings.

You doubt me? Show two people summons from XIV and summons from the new FF15. Which do you think excites more? Bigger, badder, more iconic.

Replace XIV primals with egis as the trials and people be like.. ummm.. that's cute.

Kind of scary epic!!!
http://squareportal.files.wordpress....0&h=600&crop=1

Super scary and epic!!
http://www.newgamernation.com/wp-con...n-1024x576.jpg

Kind of cute but still epic
http://zam.zamimg.com/ffxi/i/images/mobs/Diabolos-S.jpg

Cute :)
http://rss.finalfantasyxiv.com/jp/bl...20130729_2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

You doubt me? Show two people summons from XIV and summons from the new FF15. Which do you think excites more? Bigger, badder, more iconic.

Replace XIV primals with egis as the trials and people be like.. ummm.. that's cute.

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Well, yeah. FFXV is a single player game where said summons are glorified special attacks. Graphic prowess of that magnitude aren't going to happen in MMOs, where servers have to account for potentially thousands of players at once. Not to mention, fighting summons of that size means you'll barely see above their knee even in full zone out.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Well, yeah. FFXV is a single player game where said summons are glorified special attacks. Graphic prowess of that magnitude aren't going to happen in MMOs, where servers have to account for potentially thousands of players at once. Not to mention, fighting summons of that size means you'll barely see above their knee even in full zone out.

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They weren't glorified special attacks in XI though. They fought along side a summoner. XI is over a decade old with older servers. You telling me a game over 10 years newer, with better servers, better internet, better technology and more experienced developers can't handle it??

http://orig06.deviantart.net/0179/f/...to-d8zjsre.jpg

Filters for people who don't want to see them or their system can't handle it.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

They weren't glorified special attacks in XI though. They fought along side a summoner. XI is over a decade old with older servers. You telling me a game over 10 years newer can't handle it??

Filters for people who don't want to see them or their system can't handle it.

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You mentioned FFXV, not FFXI. That is a rather significant difference. Servers have to presume everyone can handle them because you can't just "turn off" a whole summon like that. FFXI's were fine because they are scaled down. No MMO could ever handle what FFXV's pulling off without crashing in an instant.

Anywho, I'l agree the Egis leave a lot to be desired, but I suspect this has to do with lore. Summoning an exact lookalike of a Primal kind of rubs in the face of killing Primals. That being said, they could aim to do something with them. Hell, like Summoners use the wind-ups to glam over Egis. Those are adorable, xD

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

but I suspect this has to do with lore.

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nope yoshi p felt like everyone having a shiva made the job feel less wow, so he made it that we can't summon the real thing.

Nice. At least you would like to some kind of change.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...vBmJDPLNZfW0Xg

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

@Ibi
Ok artificial intelligence.
I am confused, groups were all FFXI was pre 75, most content was open world.

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Your words were "Monsters were smart. They had groups."

Monsters did not have groups in the open world.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Skillchains became less used because SE stopped making enemies with solid charcteristics and made enemies squishy. No sense SCing if enemies dies in one weaponskill.

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Skillchains became less used because players realized that fighting tough to very tough mobs and using weaponskills as soon as they had TP was faster exp than fighting very tough to incredibly tough mobs using skillchains and magic bursts.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Idk what era you played but vanilla XI SC were used all the time.

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PS2 release until late 2008. Like I said in my last post, people used Distortion any time they could, Fragmentation rarely, and if both of those failed either someone grabbed a Brady Guide and tried to figure out anything that was possible or you just did without.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Exotic sub jobs were used in low man occasions, which is more than 5% of the game. Low man is what people did when not running traditional endgame. Where as here people do fates, minigames, or crafting.

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Neither of us have any actual numbers to back this up, and we clearly have different perceptions of what happened, so I'll leave this one alone.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

At best that is a fact, at worse any qualms were with unbalanced sub jobs. As far as fun, I think in a poll of people who have played both. Most would say XI summoners are more fun and represent the iconic nature of summons which is colossal burst damage divine beings.

You doubt me? Show two people summons from XIV and summons from the new FF15. Which do you think excites more? Bigger, badder, more iconic.

Replace XIV primals with egis as the trials and people be like.. ummm.. that's cute.

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I haven't looked all that much at FF15 yet, so I can't speak to its relevance here.

I can, however, speak to XI's summoner compared to summoner, when its existed as a job, in the rest of the series.

Generally, summoner has been a job that called upon avatars/eikons/summons/whatever they were called to do either a single extremely damaging attack (IV, V, IX, and it functioned similarly in VII and VIII, though those didn't have an actual summoner job) or summoning magic brought some sort of avatar to the fight who would do many stronger attacks to fight in the place of other player characters (X, XII).

In XI, a summoner was most frequently a healer with no avatar who, once a minute, called up an avatar to cast a buff, then immediately dismissed them. Although that's not completely unheard of in the series (avatars like Carbuncle have often just provided a buff), it's generally very unlike the way that summoner has been presented in the vast majority of FF games. The only time that XI's summoner was really representative of summoner in the series as a whole was during astral flow, which was their two-hour cooldown ability.

XIV is also unique. It tries to blend the idea of having an avatar available (similar to X and XII) with the occasional stronger attacks of other games.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

nope yoshi p felt like everyone having a shiva made the job feel less wow, so he made it that we can't summon the real thing.

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Okay, that reminds me of the "Yo dawg" meme.

"We thought everyone having a summon would less impressive. So we gave you a less impressive version, so no one is impressed."

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Skillchains became less used because players realized that fighting tough to very tough mobs and using weaponskills as soon as they had TP was faster exp than fighting very tough to incredibly tough mobs using skillchains and magic bursts.

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Which reiterates my point. SE stopped giving good reasons for fighting incredibly toughs which is superb xp and solid enemy charactistics with no squishies.

Not unique. XI summoner already did the occasional stronger attacks while summon is out excluding Alexander and Odin.

I maybe healed in the most of the leveling. I usually got called to DPS/TANK for endgame. Any qualms with summoner could be rectified here though. It can still be different from the current summoner implementation without racing over to the other side of XI copy pasting.

Big summons Yes plz! Little DOT Midgets LOL yeah no thx!!!!!

FFXI is a 12 year old game and they were able to put decent sized summons in their game but XIV cant? I call Bullshit! I say work on the midget summons and combat and probably voicing their main story quests and then everyone can argue about how great XIV is. But in my opinion for now the game is way shittier than XI. I mean give me a break Square Enix is a multi million dollar company and they cant afford to make this game better than XI? As much money as they are making off of people I say its time to work on making this game better than a 12 year old game.

Combat is super boring with all the button pressing and waiting for the global cooldown and then just repeating those steps over and over and over... dozes off, there is no thought put into it. I want monsters to die easier based off of what I do, not just die all the same way regardless of what I do. I wanted a bard that actually used instruments and a black mage that has a bigger spell selection other than casting fire and ice over and over which makes this game even more repetitive. As for summoner O MY GOD talk about putting me to sleep. Bio, Miasma, Bane, Fester, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, oh bio and miasma is off monster lets cast it again over and over..... And then the midgets fight alongside the monster wooo hooo! I don't give a crap what you get at level 50, I feel like this is what I'm doing 1-49 and its boring as hell. So I don't want to hear what you get at level 50 because I want the job or jobs to be exciting 1-49 as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdFiHMufzkg

Final Fantasy XIV is not Final Fantasy X, or XII, or XV. It doesn't need to be any of those. It just needs the 'look/feel' of a Final Fantasy game.

Final Fantasy XI is not World of Warcraft, or Star Wars: The Old Republic, or Everquest, or Ultima: Online. It doesn't need to be any of those. It just needs the 'look/feel' of a Final Fantasy game.

Final Fantasy XIV is NOT Final Fantasy XI. If version 1.0 was more XI-ish in game play, I can see why it failed its first incarnation.

I can attest to the fact that Final Fantasy XIV is NOT World of Warcraft. I play WoW. When I started to play FFXIV it was BETTER than World of Warcraft.

We'll see how FFXI shapes up, assuming I can actually get used to the non-standard controls.

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Originally Posted by Snolily

FFXI is a 12 year old game

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It actually a 14 year old game.

If you don't like not being led by the nose and required to look up lots of stuff online. I doubt you will like XI even if you like the premise of it. It's like night and day different from WoW.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

It actually a 14 year old game.

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Just Estimating no need to pick my ass about it.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Nice. At least you would like to some kind of change.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...vBmJDPLNZfW0Xg

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Are you that delusional that you just look at us like some white knights who want no change at all? We like change as much as the next person. Is it crazy we just think your ideas are bad? I can complain about FFXIV all day, but making it FFXI-2 is just going to make it worse.

I am even going on the free week thing for FFXI. Its sad that the game can't balance itself ever properly. BRD's are never wanted anymore. You are not wanted unless you are a BLM or GEO that can do magic burst. They fixed the accuracy issue but people still prefer ranged over melee. How can people want this system in FFXIV? Its miserable.

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Originally Posted by Snolily

Just Estimating no need to pick my ass about it.

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You reply seems way most hostile then anything I said.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Are you that delusional that you just look at us like some white knights who want no change at all? We like change as much as the next person. Is it crazy we just think your ideas are bad? I can complain about FFXIV all day, but making it FFXI-2 is just going to make it worse.

I am even going on the free week thing for FFXI. Its sad that the game can't balance itself ever properly. BRD's are never wanted anymore. You are not wanted unless you are a BLM or GEO that can do magic burst. They fixed the accuracy issue but people still prefer ranged over melee. How can people want this system in FFXIV? Its miserable.

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I called no one a knight. I just feel that certain people feel an idea from x game is great but anything from XI is bad. All I asked for was more epic, sc, and better summon. Not wanting this to turn into an exact copy, just concept of XI.

Would a one for one copy work? Probably not since the games are different. But some of the concepts could be revamped to be fair and work here.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I called no one a knight. I just feel that certain people feel an idea from x game is great but anything from XI is bad. All I asked for was more epic, sc, and better summon. Not wanting this to turn into an exact copy, just concept of XI.

Would a one for one copy work? Probably not since the games are different. But some of the concepts could be revamped to be fair and work here.

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We have said various times that we don't throw an idea out because FFXI did it. We have said various times that the specific ideas you give make the game worse. FFXI has a lot of good ideas that could come here. I never hear them, because its always "I don't want 1 button combos, I want a big chart of skillchains that most are never used and elemental wheels that break the game like FFXI.", or "I don't like vertical progression, I want everything horizontal so my precious one piece of gear lasts for years."

I could go on with those quotes. You don't think for a second how the chain of effects would work. You don't care to think of how the community would take it and not just you and the few other FFXI-2 enthusiasts in here.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images...TS_400x400.jpg

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Final Fantasy XIV is NOT Final Fantasy XI. If version 1.0 was more XI-ish in game play, I can see why it failed its first incarnation.

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It failed not because it was more XI-ish, it failed because no one's computers could handle the demanding system requirements of that game.
Even now, I'm sure most casual-computers wouldn't be able to handle it.
FFXIV 2.0 ARR and beyond are a lot less taxing on the system.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

We have said various times that we don't throw an idea out because FFXI did it. We have said various times that the specific ideas you give make the game worse. FFXI has a lot of good ideas that could come here. I never hear them, because its always "I don't want 1 button combos, I want a big chart of skillchains that most are never used and elemental wheels that break the game like FFXI.", or "I don't like vertical progression, I want everything horizontal so my precious one piece of gear lasts for years."

I could go on with those quotes. You don't think for a second how the chain of effects would work. You don't care to think of how the community would take it and not just you and the few other FFXI-2 enthusiasts in here.

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But I have figured out how to make chain of effects work. And I examined XI, GW2, ESO, any game with synergy. I came up with a way to make it work in this game without bringing the elemental wheel back. Just because you think an idea isn't good doesn't make it so. I don't mind vertical. I do mind gear being obsoleted every 3-6 months. It's a moving goalpost that doesn't serve the mid-casual core base.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3806707

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Anywho, I'l agree the Egis leave a lot to be desired, but I suspect this has to do with lore. Summoning an exact lookalike of a Primal kind of rubs in the face of killing Primals. That being said, they could aim to do something with them. Hell, like Summoners use the wind-ups to glam over Egis. Those are adorable, xD

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Egi's as a lore point pretty much blew the door open for whatever SE could choose to do with them, unfortunately that choice was to have them set on auto the majority of the time.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

But I have figured out how to make chain of effects work. And I examined XI, GW2, ESO, any game with synergy. I came up with a way to make it work in this game without bringing the elemental wheel back. Just because you think an idea isn't good doesn't make it so. I don't mind vertical. I do mind gear being obsoleted every 3-6 months. It's a moving goalpost that doesn't serve the mid-casual core base.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3806707

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Its funny, the next post after your idea summed it up beautifully.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Unfortunately, one of the fundamental aspects of FFXI's Skillchain system and thus, the concept you've developed (that is, elemental damage) is utterly useless here given the fact the elemental wheel is neutered. So a weaponskill's element would be nothing but for dramatic effect. Besides, SE did have a sort-of skillchain system in FFXIV 1.0, called 'Battle Regimen'... which didn't work as well as it should have, so it was scrapped when Yoshi took over and redesigned 1.0's battle system to something more similar to what we have now.

Another problem that was particularly notorious in FFXI with this system was the fact it fostered 'job favouritism' for the aforementioned element-bonus. Certain Jobs were used to exploit the magic burst effect and certain Jobs that could make use of certain weaponskills, and other Jobs were ignored. FFXIV's system is designed specifically to stop Job favouritism, so the magic burst system simply would not work here.

Also your idea is not too different to the current weaponskill combo system we have, only made far more complicated (perhaps unnecessarily so) - why make things more complicated simply for the sake of complication? Given the game is designed specifically for new players and those of more moderate skill, over-complicating things just goes against this idea I'm afraid. Your concept was well thought out, but sadly, for these reasons, I don't see such a system ever being implemented I'm sorry.

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Like I said, I am not saying it wasn't thought out, but you don't think ahead on how it affects the balance of jobs and battle mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

Egi's as a lore point pretty much blew the door open for whatever SE could choose to do with them, unfortunately that choice was to have them set on auto the majority of the time.

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I am sure if the egi's looked more like the primals, I doubt SMN's would complain as much.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Its funny, the next post after your idea summed it up beautifully.
Like I said, I am not saying it wasn't thought out, but you don't think ahead on how it affects the balance of jobs and battle mechanics.

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I was fully aware of the past inclusion and departure of regiments. And i was aware of the elemental wheel being stripped from the game. The wheel has been stripped from the game and redistributed to different classes. But magic itself still exist. My skillchain concept is not based around the wheel. It is based around skills and spells being color coded in the hotbars so synergy is acheived without resorting to bringing the wheel back.

Job favoritism was a design flaw, one that wouldn't have to be repeated here. We humans learn through experience and iterations. One fault does not cause one to keep starting from scratch. 90% of game systems are an iteration of a system that came before.

The regiments released flawed in execution and was never iterated on enough to make it worthwhile, it was scrapped with the choice to remove depth from party play to make solo rotations the standard which rely on party synergy less. It's kind of hard to mess up what you don't even attempt to do isn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xcg...PdzFH5gBOXQNUd

Most videos who doesn't come from WoW or a similar mmo has the same opinion on the combat and this guy in the video came from WoW. People who come from action mmos. The common fad in the industry is open world systems, dynamic systems, spectacular visuals. Is an mmo supposed to go the opposite to gain praise?

I don't think GTA would be as popular if it minimized it's grandiose to improve convenience or stability. You see constant videos of glitches and bugs but it is still the best selling game of current games.

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cf...e/10383/page/1

Has FFXIV won any awards lately? Beside the outstanding comeback from the initial launch? To my knowledge 2013 was the last big hurrah.

The irony is this game is more difficult than XI is in terms of reflexes and this is an rpg. I am not wanting twitch or difficulty like some ask for. I want a more cerebral experience when playing with other players on a one to one basis. GW2 is the closest things to cerebral synergy but I don't like the flavor of it, it's too actiony.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Final Fantasy XIV is not Final Fantasy X, or XII, or XV. It doesn't need to be any of those. It just needs the 'look/feel' of a Final Fantasy game.

Final Fantasy XI is not World of Warcraft, or Star Wars: The Old Republic, or Everquest, or Ultima: Online. It doesn't need to be any of those. It just needs the 'look/feel' of a Final Fantasy game.

Final Fantasy XIV is NOT Final Fantasy XI. If version 1.0 was more XI-ish in game play, I can see why it failed its first incarnation.

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Meanwhile, the game has countless events and such from other video games.
Face it, the dang games suffering identity crisis. I am trying too figure out why is it NOT okay to ask for some look backs at XI, but it's okay to copy and paste from WoW and have events of other games.

Also XIV 1.0 was a bust because:
1. No one could run it. Need a PC from NASA.
2. No content/Unfinished.
3. Grass.

I heard even the players of Beta said to NOT release the game yet and they did.
Not because it wasn't trying to play XI-ish, people also said it started to get better but it was too late.
Anything from XI everyone gets sent into Exile, but hey let's take a look at our friend WoW and see what we can pick.

I rather it find it's own identity if anything. I almost had enough of the constant fan service and nods to every single FF out there.

If I could glam over SMN, THM and SCH minions with wind-up minions I'd probably like the classes a bit more... Glam them over with wind-up Haurchefant, Aymeric and Wide-Eyed Fawn and awaaay I'd go. Or glam them over with the Yo-Kai minions.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Nk1tQ0Y8i8...IFSoup.com.gif

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Has FFXIV won any awards lately?

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/winning/

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The irony is this game is more difficult than XI is in terms of reflexes and this is an rpg. I am not wanting twitch or difficulty like some ask for. I want a more cerebral experience when playing with other players on a one to one basis. GW2 is the closest things to cerebral synergy but I don't like the flavor of it, it's too actiony.

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Role Playing Game is not bound to a specific genre of gaming. You can say you don't like it, but RPG is not what you decide to make of it.

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

Without baiting too much into the OP somethings are correct when it was turned into a WoW thing.

If you compare FFXIV to FFXI its very much a WoW Clone. WoW might be a bad term but i guess MMORPGs that are similiar to WoW with that simplicity.

Here are a few examples:

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Most of the examples you've listed here are incorrect either to WoW's current or former iterations (and given the "best of" references to time periods in XI spanning its opposing analogs, WoW's historical span seems an appropriate way to look at what makes up the game conceptually, if only by balance).

Weapons & Gear: WoW allows a given set of classes to use the same gear, and each class can use a multitude of weapons. Some of these weapon choices have or have had impact within their given spec, allowing for multiple weapon-based variations to playstyle, similar to XI. This is absent from XIV.

Stats: WoW has historically had many more stats than XIV (Armor Penetration, and Multistrike) and broader stat usage (e.g. healers using both Intelligence (piety and a degree of spell power) and Spirit (mana regen and a degree of spell power). Granted, it was then and is especially now more simplistic than most MMOs, except XIV, which still has fewer options or variations. Tier bonuses from WoW gear also often gave significant ability bonuses more likely to change general rotations, priorities, or playstyle while within the same role than numerous key XI sets. XIV has neither.

Magic: Since we only have two casters at present, it is hard to make analogs to any central style of or paradigm to WoW "caster-dom". Overall, theirs is more similar to any of their various melee and ranged styles that have a priority rotation among CDed or DoT skills and one or more filler (virtually all), or alternate between builder-spender resources (the rest), whereas our casters are more distinct from our melee, were more distinct from our ranged until WM/GB, and our melee much more similar to each other. Certain WoW casters have also tended to have a higher degree, nuance, and breadth of interally reactive gameplay (Firestarter and Thundercloud come close, but their uses are a bit less integral to the playstyle even when more impactful to its outputs). Perhaps XIV copied this, perhaps not. However, I have to question that XI casters did not also have a pattern to follow, even if the order or frequency of their abilities may have carried less impact on their output. I also have to question whether a lack of pattern or impact is necessarily a good thing. One thing you could say we've carried over from XI or historically from WoW is the spell count, except ours are all still in some way almost always usable, rather than outleveled or determined merely by mob type (unlike XI) and all our ours are meant for in combat (unlike WoW, which tends to have a few meant only for preparation or the open world). Both have XI and WoW (especially pre-streamlining) have tended to also have higher versatility among their casters. XIV isn't quite like either in those regards.

Dungeons & Environment: This much I'll agree on. Far more of WoW is instance-centric. Even the open world is frequently instanced for purposes of story-telling or creating a more dynamic zone. However, parties have historically been highly useful to the leveling of poorer solo classes or for grinding for anyone in WoW, and are still useful to this day. With recent changes to tagging and exp sharing/splitting, more in line with GW2 or most noticeably here our FATEs and Hunts, party bonuses have been increased and anyone can assist for credit, increasing interaction with other players. DF was an addition, while parties were historically (granted, this would be going back to Vanilla) formed via zone shouts or global LFG chat, usually among levelers of the zone housing the instance, and entry required actually running to the open-world entry portal. While DF has since made instances both more convenient and disjointed, it can also scarcely be considered as unique to WoW, or even really a WoW invention, and has had similar effects on other game, many of which were released with and were build around that system. To this day, WoW remains at least as known for every entire continent being a single seamless instance as it is for its introduction of its DF. It's just sad that the two ended up in conflict.

In short, the source doesn't especially matter. The elements or features involved do. (And you've blown the sourcing out of proportion, while paying little head to the details that make each game all they are.) Most features will be good, while certain others may negatively affect the experiences of other players. But that quantity itself does matter, too, as does how well that assemblage of elements fleshes out its resident game. And, frankly, XIV has fewer than either, and what it does have kind of points at a similarly bare-bones and scarcely reiterative path.

Find it funny how even when people make post about why 1.0 really failed other people still go around saying stuff like "1.0 was too much like XI" or "1.0 failed for being like XI" which just shows they really know nothing about 1.0 history.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Find it funny how even when people make post about why 1.0 really failed other people still go around saying stuff like "1.0 was too much like XI" or "1.0 failed for being like XI" which just shows they really know nothing about 1.0 history.

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For the sake of the argument, it'll make more sense to look back at FFXI for idea's rather WoW, as a lot of people ditched it for this game.
Only to see it's an Anime reskin then returned because of more things to do or some of the other. My friend literally left this game because that's
all it was, but with less to do in XIV and pushing out new stuff a lot in WoW. Dunno why people keep saying bad stuff like that when back then XI was one of the top MMO's back in the day.

Why the hate?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

For the sake of the argument, it'll make more sense to look back at FFXI for idea's rather WoW, as a lot of people ditched it for this game.
Only to see it's an Anime reskin then returned because of more things to do or some of the other. My friend literally left this game because that's
all it was, but with less to do in XIV and pushing out new stuff a lot in WoW. Dunno why people keep saying bad stuff like that when back then XI was one of the top MMO's back in the day.

Why the hate?

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Wizardry was also one of the top RPG's back in the day.

As much as you guys assume that the socalled people who want more FFXI related content here and think we are negative you guys are just as negative for not accepting that people are seeing flaws in this.

As much as you claim that FFXI is so unbalanced back then and now FFXIV is just as unbalanced now as it was after a while beeing in ARR.

The enjoy is only meant for a new person get them hooked fast into playing but as soon as they reach level 60 they will eventually run out of things to do and be limited to the socalled weekly item they can buy with lore. Levling fast is proven to keep going because it triggers signals in your brain that you keep acheiving something alot and gives satisfaction (google the research from the two professors who did that MMORPG research if you don't beleive me).

These are the same people you guys are telling to level other jobs in order for having something to do and even use the arguement that they should take a break?

Both thoese arguements are really really stupid.

The game should provide enough content for you to do without it feeling like you are jumping on a new hamsterwheel every 3-6 months because thats considered something to do because of the new amazing currency XXX making all your past progress useless.
Mind you it takes about 8-10 weeks to get a full set of the current currency if you want to reach the max ilvl for present time.
After that you want that some person to start levling a second job to 60 and start working on a gears for that job?
ok we can be fair lets say you have 3 mainjobs at 60 that you play very often.
Thats still almost 30 weeks of limitations.
By the time you reach your goal for thoese 3 jobs the gears are pretty much useless cause something else is introduced.

The gears itself don't mean anything either cause at current state someone thats i220 has access to the same stuff as someone thats i240 and they can do the same things and complete them making whatever i240 gears you are grinding so hard for not really worth the effort in anyway unless
SE starts presenting something that requires i240 to do or you cant enter an instance or pop a boss or whatever.

Even if they released 3 dungeons that are meant for ex roulette and they broke the pattern it still wouldnt make any difference from 2-3 you will still get burned out quick because of how the current structure is of this game.

Lets just be honest EVERYTHING and I leget mean EVERYTHING aside from Savage and current Extreme primal is considered very hard/Expert.

The rest of the content is on a very easy difficulty level these are facts its not even a casual thing cause I've seen the socalled casual community on 5 different servers where I have level 60 characters on feel that there is nothing to do and the game gets boring.

If I'm on 5 servers that are already feeling these i can only imagine how it is everywhere else.

Spare me the don't rush content arguement aswell if people like to game alot let them game if stuff wasnt as easy as it is now atleast content would have been rewarding and enjoyable.
Horizontal progression wont break this game at all because it hasnt even been tried out here yet correctly.

If even the casuals are starting to feel burned out then no one here can even use the arguement that the hardcore community is 1% cause it sure is not a 1% that bored feeling there is nothing to do.

The game itself intentionally causes you to be a slacker too btw allow me to explain this because of how the game is also built.
Player B can always catch up with Player A and acheive whatever Player A has with half the effort.
Meaning why should anyone do anything if its just going to get nerfed later so Player B who thinks they are entitled to everything because they pay for a subscription should catch up without having to work for something just as hard as Player A?
If you say this is OK then you pretty much devalued the community of FFXIV saying the newer generation of gamers can't handle challenges/grind are lazy and are just not good enough as gamers.

Before you even answer this I can vouch for plenty of people on Hyperion/Odin/Ragnarok/Balmung and Cerberus that have families and responsabilities as much as everyone else but they have time to invest in this game and want stuff more challenging in general content.
These people might not be able to handle savage or extreme primals but don't devalue their capability to actually go up a notch on general content of this game with medium/hard difficulty.

FFXI (before everything that is going on now) might be viewed as a timesink to some but it still required way more teamwork and be dependent on other players than on FFXIV.

People know exactly what i mean here while I'm aware people here will intentionally find flaws in the statement above.

If FFXI was your MMORPG flagship why would you go against your own foundation? Even if its a business find something that makes your game unique don't try and take gamers from a different market like WoW who will just jump ships again when Blizzard releases a new MMORPG because they are only here because this game reminds them of WoW. I say this because this is facts you have seen the novice network on your servers there are countless of players who use this arguement it shouldnt be like that. These are the same players most of us want to avoid because of how WoW teaches a selfish gaming mentality why would anyone want to play with the same people that are coming from that to here dictacting their way of gaming and enforcing it on us?

The FFXI community has always been way more mature than the WoW one and even for first time MMORPG people get scolded fast in the FFXIV world wich is a very positive thing except here is the problem.
The more you try to take from the WoW mentality of gaming and try to get that consumer group to FFXIV the more its going to get toxic and disturbing.

I rather play with 1-2m loyal FF customers that love SE Yoshi P and their brand then be mixed with 2m more who have the wow gaming mentality.