Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

They can stick with it all they want but they need to face these facts:

They can technically bring out a TB more often in Dungeon Content, specifically Expert as well as AOE.

We have many oGCDs and we're going to burn through them before we even TOUCH our GCDs (...except WHM, sorry). This design is a problem, however, because we're never pushed enough to USE our GCDs when everyone plays well (strictly speaking of bosses not trash mobs) and thus we have few mana problems (which makes piety useless, again sorry WHMs) and an overbloated kit.

Even if they don't want to bring Expert Dungeons in line with leveling dungeons, the same can still be said for Raids, EX and Savage. And EX and Savage have 0 excuse for not testing 2 tanks and 2 healers.

So, if they want healing to be lax, fine. BUT we need a skill pruning then. They cannot have low healing and too much healing abilities. One or the other has to give.

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Again, this idea of "bloat" doesn't take into account why the redundancies exist: to help compensate for outright bad players.

I have absolutely needed to dip into my GCDs as a SGE to keep bad tanks alive. And granted some of that comes down to me being new to healing and greedy for those adderstings, but even still that is a situation that the ability bloat accounts for: when you have a bad healer AND a bad tank, you can still clear.

I think even in the live letter YoshiP made some intimations that he prefers to err on the side of content being clearable rather than difficult.

Again, this makes a lot more sense when you view FF as a social MMO as its first priority, and a combat MMO second. It makes its money from having an extremely low barrier of entry to most of its busywork content.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Again, this idea of "bloat" doesn't take into account why the redundancies exist: to help compensate for outright bad players.

I have absolutely needed to dip into my GCDs as a SGE to keep bad tanks alive. And granted some of that comes down to me being new to healing and greedy for those adderstings, but even still that is a situation that the ability bloat accounts for: when you have a bad healer AND a bad tank, you can still clear.

I think even in the live letter YoshiP made some intimations that he prefers to err on the side of content being clearable rather than difficult.

Again, this makes a lot more sense when you view FF as a social MMO as its first priority, and a combat MMO second. It makes its money from having an extremely low barrier of entry to most of its busywork content.

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Not really? Perhaps it is my experience but even with bad tanks and dps I still don't use everything. Collective Unconciousness can 100% be removed and with some moving of skills I can guarentee most healers will not feel it. CI can also be removed by either trait upgrading it to Exalt or just flat removed. Neutral Sect'd A.Bene can fill it's spot for when I need to shield a DPS or my tank.

That is where we differ on our opinions for redundancies. Where you see it as less tools, I see it as more chances to creatively use what tools I have left to salvage a situation. THAT is what healing imo is lacking for engagement and WHY I want unnecessary skills or just some skills period gone.

Does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Not really? Perhaps it is my experience but even with bad tanks and dps I still don't use everything. Collective Unconciousness can 100% be removed and with some moving of skills I can guarentee most healers will not feel it. CI can also be removed by either trait upgrading it to Exalt or just flat removed. Neutral Sect'd A.Bene can fill it's spot for when I need to shield a DPS or my tank.

That is where we differ on our opinions for redundancies. Where you see it as less tools, I see it as more chances to creatively use what tools I have left to salvage a situation. THAT is what healing imo is lacking for engagement and WHY I want unnecessary skills or just some skills period gone.

Does that make sense?

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The problem I see with removing CI and just using Neutral A. Bene is that if you are in a dungeon situation and your tank is pulling, you don't want a regen effect on them since it's so easy during that time to grab aggro from them. Neutral is also on a pretty long cool down so it probably would not be available again before the next pull. Sure this would probably work for Savage or ultimate content, but that is not where these jobs are going to be used most of the time and so having tools that work better for dungeons is also important.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

I think they know the moment the make an entire expansion hard like World of Warcraft's CATA people will start fleeing.

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Difficulty and engagement aren't the same thing.

Content can be easy and engaging. Pressing the exact same button in 90% of content from level 4 to lvl 90 isn't engaging.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Perhaps it is my experience but even with bad tanks and dps I still don't use everything.

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I think they meant bad healer players.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Again, this idea of "bloat" doesn't take into account why the redundancies exist: to help compensate for outright bad players.

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outright bad players dont use their skills. bad whms will spam cure 1 every 5 seconds while tetra and everything else gathers dust. bad scholars cast adlo and succor when literally anything happens while they have 3 stacks of AF and AF off cooldown. bas asts go straight into asp helios and then use all their stuff at once at the smallest booboo. they all have less than 60% gcd uptime.

why are they designing jobs around people who just dont press buttons? you CANNOT add anything to help make healing easier for these players, other than a tutorial or literal invincibility buffs. i see this shit every time i queue for a roulette, and is the reason i just exclusively heal: bad players just dont use skills. i rather be redundant in dps thats always useful and leads to fun gameplay when healing is covered than redundant in healing ill never ever need while spamming 1 endlessly

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

I think they meant bad healer players.

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I meant both sides, yeah.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Not really? Perhaps it is my experience but even with bad tanks and dps I still don't use everything. Collective Unconciousness can 100% be removed and with some moving of skills I can guarentee most healers will not feel it. CI can also be removed by either trait upgrading it to Exalt or just flat removed. Neutral Sect'd A.Bene can fill it's spot for when I need to shield a DPS or my tank.

That is where we differ on our opinions for redundancies. Where you see it as less tools, I see it as more chances to creatively use what tools I have left to salvage a situation. THAT is what healing imo is lacking for engagement and WHY I want unnecessary skills or just some skills period gone.

Does that make sense?

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I understand you, and I don't disagree with that perspective. I think I *could* probably have more fun healing if I had to be choosier--and, in reality, I already am kind of choosy and ignore several spells almost entirely, if only because I forget they exist.

What I am saying is that you are also a good healer, and I am not. The game is designed so that players who are new to healing or bad at healing still have a good chance at keeping even a bad tank alive. The game is designed to be clearable even if both your healer and your tank are terrible. Put another way, the game is designed to be clearable by an extremely low skill threshold to accommodate an increasingly unskilled playerbase. Or, put even a third way, the players' ignorance already creates so much artificial difficulty that all the skill bloat is the developers' way of compensative for that artificial difficulty.

And does that work? To an extent, yes. Usually at least one of either the healer or the tank can limp the group to the end within one or two wipes, because they are never far from where a slight adjustment could help them clear. It's not efficient or very high-skill, but the system gives the party extremely good odds to clear, and that in turn reduces friction over player skill. With tighter kits, we would have much more rage because players wouldn't be able to compensate for each other as much.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

why are they designing jobs around people who just dont press buttons? you CANNOT add anything to help make healing easier for these players, other than a tutorial or literal invincibility buffs. i see this shit every time i queue for a roulette, and is the reason i just exclusively heal: bad players just dont use skills. i rather be redundant in dps thats always useful and leads to fun gameplay when healing is covered than redundant in healing ill never ever need while spamming 1 endlessly

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Exactly this. I have to reiterate that I don't exactly *like* that this is FF XIV's design philosophy. Just that it quite self-evidently prioritizes accessibility, and the healer/tank design reflects that implementing that philosophy just amounts to mitigation/healing bloat to compensate for, exactly as you said, people who don't press buttons. But again, I think there is a distinction to be had, because they have a two-prong approach to dealing with players who don't push buttons:

1) Shift the challenge difficulty to more "intuitive" things that do not involve button pushing like scripting AoE-avoidance dances.
2) Shift the responsibility for pushing buttons onto other players. The button bloat is *partly* to throw a bunch of things at the inept player and hope they will stick (faulty logic, I know), but moreso it exists so other players have more tools to *compensate* for the inept player. Again, in theory this bloat keeps the party balanced in favor of clearing, because at this point in XIV's design (and ignoring the occasional DPS check), as long as the tank stays alive then clearing isn't a matter of skill but of patience. Having so much redundancy between tanks and healers literally halves failure rates because now you have two roles whose primary concern is a single health bar and each has a very reasonable ability to single-handedly maintain it.

They could just add something for further hell one could opt in for like "answer this multiple choice question while dodging mechanics" it is engaging kupo lol jk <3

Toss in some achievements behind it etc.. People would do this haha

want an extra 10k at the end of this dungeon? answer all questions correct and never die etc..

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

What I am saying is that you are also a good healer, and I am not. The game is designed so that players who are new to healing or bad at healing still have a good chance at keeping even a bad tank alive

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Exactly this. As I said earlier in this thread, Healer is the job with the most responsibility in a group. In MSQ content, tanks can basically just turn on their stance and hit random buttons and will hold aggro and be okay.. as long as the healer keeps them alive. DPS can essentially hit random buttons and the fight will just take longer.. as long as the healer fixes their mistakes. Healers need to keep everyone alive for the expected damage as well as the unexpected damage, keeping an eye on the Vuln Stack collectors and the few things that actually do still need to be cleansed, while still trying to put out whatever DPS they can... or the entire group dies (and they probably get the blame for it). There just isn't much of a chance that healing in MSQ content will get much harder overall otherwise, well, pretty much no one would opt to be a healer.

Now, should "Expert" dungeons be at least a little harder for healers than MSQ dungeons? Sure. Should 8 mans actually require at least some healing attention from both healers? Sure. Should EX's (and potentially Savages in some cases) be harder still? Sure.
Should 8 mans be soloable by an on level player of any job? Absolutely not.

It's much better to look at ways for Healing jobs to be made more engaging outside of the healing component of their role. This will not only positively impact playing a healer in all content in the game, easy or otherwise, but it's much, much, much more likely to actually be considered by the developers than "Just make everything harder so healers have to heal more."

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Originally Posted by Ixon

If this were true you wouldn't be continuously making threads on the matter. Sometimes you have to continue asking to get what you want, hence why it keeps getting pushed by the players. Ask the PVP community if it felt ignored lol

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I was writing a longer response, but forget it, it boils down to "I'm not sure if you have even bothered to read his response".

the threads that were quoted while helpful aren't even ALL of the threads that have been made over the years asking for changes, but I feel that you won't be convinced no matter how many links get posted.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

Exactly this. As I said earlier in this thread, Healer is the job with the most responsibility in a group. In MSQ content, tanks can basically just turn on their stance and hit random buttons and will hold aggro and be okay.. as long as the healer keeps them alive. DPS can essentially hit random buttons and the fight will just take longer.. as long as the healer fixes their mistakes. Healers need to keep everyone alive for the expected damage as well as the unexpected damage, keeping an eye on the Vuln Stack collectors and the few things that actually do still need to be cleansed, while still trying to put out whatever DPS they can... or the entire group dies (and they probably get the blame for it). There just isn't much of a chance that healing in MSQ content will get much harder overall otherwise, well, pretty much no one would opt to be a healer.

Now, should "Expert" dungeons be at least a little harder for healers than MSQ dungeons? Sure. Should 8 mans actually require at least some healing attention from both healers? Sure. Should EX's (and potentially Savages in some cases) be harder still? Sure.
Should 8 mans be soloable by an on level player of any job? Absolutely not.

It's much better to look at ways for Healing jobs to be made more engaging outside of the healing component of their role. This will not only positively impact playing a healer in all content in the game, easy or otherwise, but it's much, much, much more likely to actually be considered by the developers than "Just make everything harder so healers have to heal more."

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Few points - this concept of healers is the job with the most responsibility? No, this is what got us into this situation in the first place, along with this attitude of the "DPS can essentially hit random buttons and the fight will just take longer.. as long as the healer fixes their mistakes".

All, roles have responsibility. If you start to dissect them and labelling them as , well, this role has more , or that role has more, then you start have issues such has healing anxiety, tanxiety, etc. You start saying that can't find a healer or a tank. you start having developers talking about "well we need to make this role accessible"

However that is completely different from the discussion around difficulty/challenge, and yes, I don't think anyone disagree that as someone progresses from normal content to expert , savage and ultimate each job and role is expected to have more knowledge and be able to optimize. Irrespective of the degree of difficulty, the role should be engaging.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Few points - this concept of healers is the job with the most responsibility? No, this is what got us into this situation in the first place, along with this attitude of the "DPS can essentially hit random buttons and the fight will just take longer.. as long as the healer fixes their mistakes".

All, roles have responsibility. If you start to dissect them and labelling them as , well, this role has more , or that role has more, then you start have issues such has healing anxiety, tanxiety, etc. You start saying that can't find a healer or a tank. you start having developers talking about "well we need to make this role accessible"

However that is completely different from the discussion around difficulty/challenge, and yes, I don't think anyone disagree that as someone progresses from normal content to expert , savage and ultimate each job and role is expected to have more knowledge and be able to optimize. Irrespective of the degree of difficulty, the role should be engaging.

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I agree with this, but I also don't think StriderShinryu is necessarily wrong...just that they are described the paradigm that, as you said, got us into this mess.

It's just really difficult to fairly and transparently allocate party responsibility when you have, on one side of the spectrum, something with a strict and obvious pass/fail indicator like keeping players alive, and on the other side of a spectrum, something where players are heavily discouraged from discussing any measure of DPS numbers. I don't think it is fair at all, but it is also just easier to blame healers because players are inherently given more data to point fingers at than bad DPS players (this is also why even mediocre tanks can fly under the radar without popping mitigation, because most DPS don't pay attention to the preventative measures, they just pay attention to whether the group wipes).

And I don't really know how to make it better, because the healers are just kind of the de facto scapegoat that allows the game to be so casual-friendly and "non-toxic." We overcompensate so that players can do practically no damage. And in many cases a lot of those players don't even know they aren't doing enough damage. And they can't know because then we would have DPS-shaming. But boy do I wish I at least had a personal DPS meter so I could at least keep track of my own performance, because I still am never very certain of my tank DPS, at least using the game's native tools.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I agree with this, but I also don't think StriderShinryu is necessarily wrong...just that they are described the paradigm that, as you said, got us into this mess.

It's just really difficult to fairly and transparently allocate party responsibility when you have, on one side of the spectrum, something with a strict and obvious pass/fail indicator like keeping players alive, and on the other side of a spectrum, something where players are heavily discouraged from discussing any measure of DPS numbers. I don't think it is fair at all, but it is also just easier to blame healers because players are inherently given more data to point fingers at than bad DPS players (this is also why even mediocre tanks can fly under the radar without popping mitigation, because most DPS don't pay attention to the preventative measures, they just pay attention to whether the group wipes).

And I don't really know how to make it better, because the healers are just kind of the de facto scapegoat that allows the game to be so casual-friendly and "non-toxic." We overcompensate so that players can do practically no damage. And in many cases a lot of those players don't even know they aren't doing enough damage. And they can't know because then we would have DPS-shaming. But boy do I wish I at least had a personal DPS meter so I could at least keep track of my own performance, because I still am never very certain of my tank DPS, at least using the game's native tools.

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some of my comments (not all) will not apply to those people who play with a static and/or usually interested in savage and more difficult content and know what they're doing, however-

1- we already have buff and debuff indicators- so there is no escaping or arguing with vulnerability stacks, who is using (for example) tank stance, or mitigation, or shroud, or any number or DPS enhancements.
2- we can already see who gets aoe heals, and who is does not, usually because they are never in in range
3- We can already tell if something is taking an abnormally long time to die, usually because some CD is up again..and again..and again.

None of the above require some that which can not be named measurement meter. it is in the UI (not that I am against personal use of said meter, the contratry0 .

Blaming healers is both laziness and scapegoating, due to many factors, whether you want to point to long-kept historic stereotyping of healer roles, or SE insisting on their particular healer design.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I was writing a longer response, but forget it, it boils down to "I'm not sure if you have even bothered to read his response".

the threads that were quoted while helpful aren't even ALL of the threads that have been made over the years asking for changes, but I feel that you won't be convinced no matter how many links get posted.

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Not sure what you're talking about, as I am agreeing with the posts. You SHOULD be bringing it up every chance you get. You SHOULD beat the dead horse till it rises from the grave and gives you the change you want. Simply pointing out that there are a lot of other communities in the game that also feel ignored, but that doesn't mean you stop trying.

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

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potency adjustments. probably something meaningless like "we made cure ii cost 900 mp to help your mp economy guys ☺️"

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

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I expect nothing other than potency adjustments at best.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

some of my comments (not all) will not apply to those people who play with a static and/or usually interested in savage and more difficult content and know what they're doing, however-

1- we already have buff and debuff indicators- so there is no escaping or arguing with vulnerability stacks, who is using (for example) tank stance, or mitigation, or shroud, or any number or DPS enhancements.
2- we can already see who gets aoe heals, and who is does not, usually because they are never in in range
3- We can already tell if something is taking an abnormally long time to die, usually because some CD is up again..and again..and again.

None of the above require some that which can not be named measurement meter. it is in the UI (not that I am against personal use of said meter, the contratry0 .

Blaming healers is both laziness and scapegoating, due to many factors, whether you want to point to long-kept historic stereotyping of healer roles, or SE insisting on their particular healer design.

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I agree that we have these indicators. I also agree that blaming healers is lazy scapegoating.

I am just observing that the average player does not keep an eye for any of these things. Buff/debuff indicators have several thresholds of accessibility: (1) size, (2) legibility, (3) numerosity, (4) variety, (5) understanding typically limited to understanding of the specific job or enemy. And a DPS who doesn't stay close for heals or do their rotation right will generally never realize they are the problem without being called out on it. And this is why they scapegoat the healer. Because staying alive or wiping is one of the most basic things that they will be able to pay attention to.

I don't like it. But that is what we have, because there isn't a good system in place to encourage DPS (and to some extent tanks) to introspect on their own abilities. And again, I think that may be the way the game is intentionally designed: healers and tanks are given an excess of abilities to keep the party progressing, so that casual DPS players can have a lot of leeway "having fun." It's why Yoshi-P wants a DPS every expansion, but doesn't want players to be judging anyone on their DPS: the "casual DPS" is what keeps the game popular and selling well. We are the babysitters.

But just because we are babysitters doesn't mean we have to settle for spamming our basic spell 100 times. If Action-DPS is the way the game is going, we damn well deserve some attack rotations.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

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A mana reduction cost to Medica II or Cure II, along with the usual tweak to SCH that no one asked for and literally nothing else.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

potency adjustments. probably something meaningless like "we made cure ii cost 900 mp to help your mp economy guys ☺️"

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Which is funny because after the lvl 85 Healing Potency trait buff, right now Medica 2 is the exact same cast time as Cure II, the exact same MP cost as Cure II. . . AND MORE TOTAL POTENCY ON EVERY TARGET IT HITS.

Medica II: 1000 total Potency. Cure II: 800 Potency.

Medica II is better than Cure II on a potency basis in every way. You can't make this up. . . This is a prime example of why people say the devs have no idea how healers actually play or how they interact.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

A mana reduction cost to Medica II or Cure II, along with the usual tweak to SCH that no one asked for and literally nothing else.

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I wouldn't mind if Lustrate got the Taurochole treatment and reduced the target's damage taken.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Which is funny because after the lvl 85 Healing Potency trait buff, right now Medica 2 is the exact same cast time as Cure II, the exact same MP cost as Cure II. . . AND MORE TOTAL POTENCY ON EVERY TARGET IT HITS.

Medica II: 1000 total Potency. Cure II: 800 Potency.

Medica II is better than Cure II on a potency basis in every way. You can't make this up. . . This is a prime example of why people say the devs have no idea how healers actually play or how they interact.



I wouldn't mind if Lustrate got the Taurochole treatment and reduced the target's damage taken.

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I genuinely have no words.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

I genuinely have no words.

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Goes to further prove that devs literally did not playtest anything for this expansion.

Smn
Dragon kick mnk
Paradox blm
Drk
Whm
War self heal insanity

Like there's a difference between unbalanced and untested

Yeah… can’t say I didn’t see those responses coming since my own thoughts was in the same ball park lol. But if anything, with the intense amount of WHM that came together, I at least am going to think mp will be improved for WHM. Maybe some buffs to the heal kit too? Other healers, might some how be a mix of buffs and weird nerfs or something straight up removed because reasons…

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Goes to further prove that devs literally did not playtest anything for this expansion.

Smn
Dragon kick mnk
Paradox blm
Drk
Whm
War self heal insanity

Like there's a difference between unbalanced and untested

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I don't think trying to hold SE accountable for things like Dragon Kick MNK or Paradox BLM is in the same category. There is no PTR, so they are reliant on their dev team and internal testers. Not to mention jobs are designed to be played in a certain way. However, Yoshi-P himself has stated many times that they will never be as smart as their players, which isn't a bad thing, it's just a fact. However many hundred of devs is nothing compared to the millions that play the game, and there is a good chance the player will find a way to play the job better than the devs ever intended. Same thought process applies with intended raid strategies vs what the player comes up with. Sometimes it's broken like NIN at NIN's release, and sometimes it's fun like MNK double TK opener in SB or how again MNK can do the double Solar opener to align Phantom Rush with 2-min burst where Yoshi-P himself stated in Drak's interview it wasn't designed with that in mind.

SMN is just a playstyle conflict(old mains hate it, new players seem to love it), and WAR self healing was always insane, it's just easier to access now. I think really DRK and WHM are the unanimously disliked kits on that list that have nothing really to do with anything other than their less fun gameplay.(DRK being in almost every world first and WHM being in slightly less if I recall.) To be fair, I dropped DRK in SB because I disliked the direction myself, but now I'm a happy GNB main.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

I don't think trying to hold SE accountable for things like Dragon Kick MNK or Paradox BLM is in the same category. There is no PTR, so they are reliant on their dev team and internal testers. Not to mention jobs are designed to be played in a certain way. However, Yoshi-P himself has stated many times that they will never be as smart as their players, which isn't a bad thing, it's just a fact. However many hundred of devs is nothing compared to the millions that play the game, and there is a good chance the player will find a way to play the job better than the devs ever intended. Same thought process applies with intended raid strategies vs what the player comes up with. Sometimes it's broken like NIN at NIN's release, and sometimes it's fun like MNK double TK opener in SB or how again MNK can do the double Solar opener to align Phantom Rush with 2-min burst where Yoshi-P himself stated in Drak's interview it wasn't designed with that in mind.

SMN is just a playstyle conflict(old mains hate it, new players seem to love it), and WAR self healing was always insane, it's just easier to access now. I think really DRK and WHM are the unanimously disliked kits on that list that have nothing really to do with anything other than their less fun gameplay.(DRK being in almost every world first and WHM being in slightly less if I recall.) To be fair, I dropped DRK in SB because I disliked the direction myself, but now I'm a happy GNB main.

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Yup, players being more clever than the devs/testers, especially with how broken some jobs are now (WAR tanks) sometimes makes me wish there was a PTR but ONLY.. ONLY for job testing. No new content, just job testing. Some days I wonder if the devs only test certain jobs and others are just "throw darts and whatever sticks, we apply"

I envy most people in this thread. What a carefree life one must live to be able to fill the social void with some weird and schizophrenic parasocial relationship with a company that couldn't care less if you died tomorrow. To grant such importance to it that you'd spend hours defending what would be stated as objective design shortcomings in quite literally any other game.

The community is so casualized and viciously "positively" toxic that reasoning with it has become impossible. And now the dev team take advantage of that to show flippant remarks and what would be reviled arrogance, again, in any other scenario. This is why I don't play in DF anymore. This is why I'm struggling to find a reason to do anything except play BLU and pretend Yoshi didn't take a fat steaming one over one of my favorite classes in the series with a laughable excuse that this community took on the chin. Yes. FFXI, a game from two decades ago, simply had access to alien technology that allowed that job to be born and allowed other jobs to maintain an engagement and identity that didn't hinge off the holy role trinity that is so heavily enforced because Yoshi's imagination is limited to whatever WoW thought up.

Healers have been told to take a hike. The past year or so tanks have been realizing we've been suffering a similar homogenization. But it's okay because daddy Yoshi knows what he's doing and as long as a new DPS class is released every expansion, there is naught to complain about.

I don't know who you people are, but you aren't the community that was around when HW released. I don't know where they went, but I'm probably going to end up unsubbing someday soon and following suit if both the game and it's community will so willfully decay like this.

/Rant

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

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I'm basing this purely on speculation and a hell of a lot of copium
The way I see it, is that the new Ultimate isn't clearable with certain classes and if I had to guess, WHM is probably really struggling with the new Ultimate. Sure, the heal check might not be THAT difficult but the fact is, WHM's MP economy might not be able to hold it up to a place that SE is comfort with it in its current state. Looking at FFlogs, WHM has to heal the least of all the healers, relying solely on Lilies and the few oGCDs it has, in order to even begin to enter into the same playing field as the other healers in terms of its raid contribution. That might work in an 8 minute Savage raid to cover up its MP economy but an Ultimate fight typically lasts twice that length and since the math has already shown that WHM's MP economy is unsustainable for that long, its performance will obviously show very poorly. Since SE specifically mentioned WHM when talking about job adjustments, the way I see it is that they'll probably end up buffing their MP economy in some way.

Assize being buffed to 10% MP helps but realistically wouldn't be enough on its own.
Reducing the cost of Medica 2 and Cure 2 doesn't really help because just using Glare non-stop is enough to tap out WHM's MP in a long fight so unless they just flat out lower the cost of WHM's healing spells to be cheaper than Glare, it doesn't resolve anything.
They could lower the CD on some of their oGCDs. I'd be surprised if they did because I don't see that happening at all.
Maybe some adjustments to the Lily System? Quicker to build Lilies and/or Misery getting a DPS buff? Possible. Probably the most likely outcome really but I wouldn't put my money on it personally.
Thin Air getting rolled back to its ShB iteration? I see them adding a 3rd charge before that ended up happening, even though that would instantly fix WHMs MP economy on its own since it's literally what broke the camel's back to start with.

IDK, I do feel that WHM (and probably MCH) are currently the weakest class in the game and the Ultimate fight is just highlighting some problem areas that the Devs are just now realizing for themselves, despite our rants about those issues since the very beginning. Not holding out hope that they'll adjust even half of that but, again, it's just my speculations on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I'm basing this purely on speculation and a hell of a lot of copium…

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I’d like to think that WHM will at least get some nerfs on cost of MP and maybe at least some mp buffs to assize and thin air. The changes you mentioned seemed to be widespread thing that most were wanting but… who knows… it might be too much copingway vibes trying to make me believe they will do major changes lol.

I'm not surprised by this instance, but I am disappointed. I guess I'll keep stopping by for things such as housing, story and other fluff, but the combat of this game for anyone that enjoys playing a healer role is depressing, and it doesn't seem that the devs are willing to change any of this.

What is surprising though is the amount of people that shrink all the discussion around this to "oh you want to wreck casual players" (when casual players are the ones that suffer the most from this) "just play harder content" (when clearly this doesn't solve the issue) "you want things to be harder" (when engaging and hard are two very different things). This has been discussed over and over again, and you will still have people telling the healer community that they just aren't giving the proper feedback or acting like anyone criticizing something is part of some sort of hardcore bad guy gang. The community having this stance wouldn't make me sad if this wasn't clearly a vision shared by the developers as well.

A pity, really. I enjoy the aesthetics of the game, but nowadays, it looks like the game is basically only this. Beautiful skills and animations that are extremely shallow when it comes to player skill and synergy. I can't bring myself to enjoy the combat of this any longer. Doing the endwalker MSQ as a healer was one of the worst experiences I ever had in a RPG, I can't even imagine a person trying it from the very beginning until the end.

I wish even ultimate was that "engaging" healing...

Twintania, nael, you just wait for next phase doing dps and using oGCDs. Baha you entirely heal outside the time you could do damage, but then again even damage doesn't matter because you overkill him by 20% now. Adds is the only one where a tank might die if two healers disconnect at the same time. Golden is massive whatever again, it requires more mitigation effort from the non-healers than healers.
All UWU bosses jump out for one gcd every single time you need to heal. Only orbs and primal roulette need healing on uptime at all.
Only living liquid offered some timing challenge, but that's also because we fed dolls 2+2, you could take much more time at it if you wished to. Alex / Perfect are extreme trial level of healing again.

Even all of this content is 90% dps filler casting, with no almost no unexpected variables besides tank ice target in BJCC phase.

No matter how the damage of the new ultimate coming out is going to be, it'll surely be almost entirely doable with tank / dps mitigation spells and healer oGCDs (woven after the now 1,5sec casted dps spam spell of course) again after the first 10 pulls it takes to get used to it. Then we just broil again and dream of the glorious days of five dots in heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Not to mention jobs are designed to be played in a certain way. However, Yoshi-P himself has stated many times that they will never be as smart as their players, which isn't a bad thing, it's just a fact. However many hundred of devs is nothing compared to the millions that play the game, and there is a good chance the player will find a way to play the job better than the devs ever intended.

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Just to chip in a small addition to this point here.

It's important to remember that they have 5 or 6 battle system designers total depending on how much Sato's role leads towards production management now.

If SE had hundreds of devs (Or even a consistent testing team of that scale with experience and skill comparable to a prog raiding static) then I don't think they would be making the significant oversights and mistakes that are pretty much a given with each expansion release. This pattern of releasing a few jobs in a state somewhere between non competitive and barely functional and then having to spend the next 6 months worth of patches simply fixing them is both predictable and a huge waste of their time.

As of right now I assume they have a similar setup to what I had at EA/Bullfrog with a large shared pool of testers and a system that simply dishes out tickets and assignments randomly as testers become available. This is backed up by how Yoshida talked about the difficulties and compromises the testing team had to make back in HW and Gordias (which in turn resulted in infamously wonky DPS checks). That's fine for a standalone single player style game or a multiplayer game that has more in common with it's peers. But FFXIV's end game is quite different to the competition and it takes time to adjust.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This pattern of releasing a few jobs in a state somewhere between non competitive and barely functional and then having to spend the next 6 months worth of patches simply fixing them is both predictable and a huge waste of their time.

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I can't stress enough how important this specific statement is. A lot of problems with jobs are almost always identified immediately when new changes are presented, but only very few of these issues are addressed while others are ignored or procrastinated on for a later patch. They waste a lot of development time fixing their own easily preventable design problems, most of which can be avoided had they stopped being so selective in their feedback.

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Originally Posted by BrokentoothMarch

I envy most people in this thread. What a carefree life one must live to be able to fill the social void with some weird and schizophrenic parasocial relationship with a company that couldn't care less if you died tomorrow. To grant such importance to it that you'd spend hours defending what would be stated as objective design shortcomings in quite literally any other game.

The community is so casualized and viciously "positively" toxic that reasoning with it has become impossible. And now the dev team take advantage of that to show flippant remarks and what would be reviled arrogance, again, in any other scenario. This is why I don't play in DF anymore. This is why I'm struggling to find a reason to do anything except play BLU and pretend Yoshi didn't take a fat steaming one over one of my favorite classes in the series with a laughable excuse that this community took on the chin. Yes. FFXI, a game from two decades ago, simply had access to alien technology that allowed that job to be born and allowed other jobs to maintain an engagement and identity that didn't hinge off the holy role trinity that is so heavily enforced because Yoshi's imagination is limited to whatever WoW thought up.

Healers have been told to take a hike. The past year or so tanks have been realizing we've been suffering a similar homogenization. But it's okay because daddy Yoshi knows what he's doing and as long as a new DPS class is released every expansion, there is naught to complain about.

I don't know who you people are, but you aren't the community that was around when HW released. I don't know where they went, but I'm probably going to end up unsubbing someday soon and following suit if both the game and it's community will so willfully decay like this.

/Rant

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Hear hear!

That's All.

No really:

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I could say day, and you'd say night
Tell me it's black when I know that it's white
Always the same, it's just a shame, that's all
I could leave but I won't go
Though my heart might tell me so
I can't feel a thing from my head down to my toes
But why does it always seem to be
Me looking at you, you looking at me
It's always the same, it's just a shame, that's all
Turning me on, turning me off,
Making me feel like I want too much
Living with you's just putting me through it all of the time

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- Genesis

Pandora likes to mess with me.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

I’d like to think that WHM will at least get some nerfs on cost of MP and maybe at least some mp buffs to assize and thin air. The changes you mentioned seemed to be widespread thing that most were wanting but… who knows… it might be too much copingway vibes trying to make me believe they will do major changes lol.

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I don't expect anything major, just highlighting possible adjustments that are easy to do.
Buffing Assize and Misery's potency both help to address MP and Damage on WHM so are likely to happen. Anything beyond that is extra

I'm pretty sure the engaging content is sitting outside a housing plot trying to win a house against bots and other players
Or decorating your house while trying to get the look you want but there is an item limit cap so you scream into the void

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Originally Posted by HeyMcFly

I'm pretty sure the engaging content is sitting outside a housing plot trying to win a house against bots and other players
Or decorating your house while trying to get the look you want but there is an item limit cap so you scream into the void

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Fighting against the house decorating system's limitation and glitches is the true Ultimate fight in XIV. >w>

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

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If nothing else, we might see more excitement in PvP. I'm cautiously optimistic about their mention of adrenaline rushes for each job (wouldn't that be a hoot?), but this is where my hope lies for actual gameplay for healers, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Fighting against the house decorating system's limitation and glitches is the true Ultimate fight in XIV. >w>

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It's true; house decorating is where my AST shines most, these days. So much complexity, so many decisions, the tiny little tweaks to get everything just right...
It's so freeing.

With how the question in the QnA was reformulated, I now ponder if SE as a whole is aware of the situation but dont want to address or Yoshi P have the wrong idea about the complaints for the way the team communicates to him the issue.

Do we know if we still the lack of a main healer in the combat Dev team?

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Originally Posted by Aarchie

With how the question in the QnA was reformulated, I now ponder if SE as a whole is aware of the situation but dont want to address or Yoshi P have the wrong idea about the complaints for the way the team communicates to him the issue.

Do we know if we still the lack of a main healer in the combat Dev team?

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Aye. None of them heal.