Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Penthea

My post was more about telling people why they shouldn't expect anyone to be open about their disability with random people in an online game rather than a defense for poor performance. Most people with disabilities experience some manner of prejudice in real life, and as we know online people tend to have a much looser filter when it comes to insensitive comments. When a person knows the kind of things people like me deal with irl, they're more understanding of why we're often quiet about having a disability when in a random group in an online game.

As for contributing to my raid team regardless of disability, I wish that was true. We have had wipes because my finger twitched or my hand locked up at a bad time. We have had to end some raids early or cancel them because I was in too much pain. There was a three week period at the start of the expansion in which I was unable to even play never mind raid. Our raids are only two hours long because of me. But the people I'm with are okay with all of this, we're not a competitive team. We just want to get our kills with some laughs along the way. I'm very lucky to have a team full of good people who are willing to put up with my limitations. Though the flip side is that when my disability doesn't get in the way my performance is typically more than enough to deal with savage so we can make up for lost time when I am doing okay.



Not by all though, some here assume playing badly = must be a leech. Some people have legitimately valid reasons for poor performance and some people's best is a very low bar. I hate it as well when I encounter someone who is performing very badly but my first reaction isn't "omg a leech". I reserve that opinion for when someone is clearly offended that they're expected to have performance that is adequate for the content they're doing. I found in DF that most people make silly mistakes they otherwise would not do or are unaware that they're even making them. While the latter is certainly a problem this does not qualify someone to be seen as knowingly having parasitic behaviour.

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The thing is though, at what point does it become a thing of seeing that not everyone is disabled and these people actually are just lazy or inconsiderate of others. People seem to just gloss over the fact the latter is very prevalent and possible in this game and just assume the best in people. And i mean, i don’t want to assume ANYTHING. But my question would be what kind of disability prevents people from reading their skills and seeing they have positionals or that they should be aoeing/dpsing on healers? Genuine question btw.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

My post was more about telling people why they shouldn't expect anyone to be open about their disability with random people in an online game rather than a defense for poor performance. Most people with disabilities experience some manner of prejudice in real life, and as we know online people tend to have a much looser filter when it comes to insensitive comments. When a person knows the kind of things people like me deal with irl, they're more understanding of why we're often quiet about having a disability when in a random group in an online game.

As for contributing to my raid team regardless of disability, I wish that was true. We have had wipes because my finger twitched or my hand locked up at a bad time. We have had to end some raids early or cancel them because I was in too much pain. There was a three week period at the start of the expansion in which I was unable to even play never mind raid. Our raids are only two hours long because of me. But the people I'm with are okay with all of this, we're not a competitive team. We just want to get our kills with some laughs along the way. I'm very lucky to have a team full of good people who are willing to put up with my limitations. Though the flip side is that when my disability doesn't get in the way my performance is typically more than enough to deal with savage so we can make up for lost time when I am doing okay.



Not by all though, some here assume playing badly = must be a leech. Some people have legitimately valid reasons for poor performance and some people's best is a very low bar. I hate it as well when I encounter someone who is performing very badly but my first reaction isn't "omg a leech". I reserve that opinion for when someone is clearly offended that they're expected to have performance that is adequate for the content they're doing. I found in DF that most people make silly mistakes they otherwise would not do or are unaware that they're even making them. While the latter is certainly a problem this does not qualify someone to be seen as knowingly having parasitic behaviour.

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That is the thing if someone's bar is that low why is it alright to tell other with higher standards to queue with friends or use PF, but pushing the same standard on those with lower standards gets met with push back?

I really do not care so much how people play, how they play and the reason is on them. Though just because I do not care how they play does not mean I should not kick them from the group when I do not do not want to deal with them.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is though, at what point does it become a thing of seeing that not everyone is disabled and these people actually are just lazy or inconsiderate of others. People seem to just gloss over the fact the latter is very prevalent and possible in this game and just assume the best in people. And i mean, i don’t want to assume ANYTHING. But my question would be what kind of disability prevents people from reading their skills and seeing they have positionals or that they should be aoeing/dpsing on healers? Genuine question btw.

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You'll find in my posts I'm not saying people should assume every person who performs badly is disabled. I never said anything like this at all. I am well aware that disabled people are a minority.

I was initially responding to someone who essentially said "tell me if you're not performing well due to disability", someone else informed them that people don't because that can be met with crappy comments and their response to that was basically "have courage to say it". I wanted to explain that people being quiet about their disability is often not due to a lack of courage, but being already so tired of dealing with prejudice irl that they just want to avoid if they can. I gave the example that I lie about why I make some mistakes in a random group so that I don't have someone accuse me of pretending I have disability. I'd rather people just think I derped and move on quickly than risk getting into an argument with someone who has very flawed views on disability.

My problem with many threads like this is so many are quick to assume that poor performance must be because someone is knowingly getting carried and are happy to do so as long as no one says anything. Absolutely people like this do exist, I even raided with some of them. I know very well how frustrating it is to encounter these people. But we don't know the random people we meet in DF. We don't know if they're having a bad day, haven't played the class in ages, are getting lag spikes, are disabled, are unaware they're playing badly or if they're knowingly leeching. We don't know unless we ask and if my experience in DF is anything to go on people often just don't ask at all. I have played with people who were utterly silent in party chat but complained loads in another chat channel about someone who is playing badly. Some of them assumed the absolute worst about those people without even trying to confirm if what they thought was true.

Being annoyed with someone performing badly? I'm 100% okay with that. Assuming anyone performing badly is just hoping to get carried? I'm not okay with that because it's just not the truth. It's not as black and white as some people like to think.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

But my question would be what kind of disability prevents people from reading their skills and seeing they have positionals or that they should be aoeing/dpsing on healers? Genuine question btw.

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Disability can give people cognitive issues that make things difficult to remember at times or they get moments of being absent minded. I actually deal with this myself. My combat memory is not what it used to be. But I am riding on my ten+ years of raiding experience to cover up for that so I can wing it a lot, but not everyone has the experience I have. I also avoid playing melee because I get visual artefacts in my vision that can impede what I see so playing ranged is a far safer option for me, but it can still disrupt what I see at times and get me killed.

But of course there comes a point in which a person needs to accept that their limitations can mean their performance will never be enough, or that they can't use the disability card for everything. But this is different from person to person. Some disabled people work very hard to exceed their limitations, some don't and some simply cannot. We're all different people.

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Originally Posted by Awha

That is the thing if someone's bar is that low why is it alright to tell other with higher standards to queue with friends or use PF, but pushing the same standard on those with lower standards gets met with push back?

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If you have higher standards you want to force everyone in the group to play to your standards. If you want to control how other people play their character you should probably make your own group.

If you have lower standards that likely only applies to your own play. You're not going to get mad at someone who's doing optimal rotations and try to force them down to a lower standard.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If you have higher standards you want to force everyone in the group to play to your standards. If you want to control how other people play their character you should probably make your own group.

If you have lower standards that likely only applies to your own play. You're not going to get mad at someone who's doing optimal rotations and try to force them down to a lower standard.

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I get that this is more of a general thing, but again i have to say i don’t think knowing your rotation and knowing to do positionals, do aoes in dungeons, or knowing to equip yourself with a higher item level weapon is having a high standard. That really should just be the norm. No ones expecting people to be top tier raiders in casual content, or forcing that down their throats. We just want people to do the basics for their job. In the end, it’s a multiplayer game. Your actions affect others whether you like it or not. Going into a multiplayer game, or moreso an mmo i should say. Most people should be willing to want to improve or at least understand the basics of the game whether that means spending 5 mins to ask someone or look up a guide or anything really.

Pages and pages on and people still are glossing over a very simple point I have made time and time again. That it takes the smallest amount of effort to do things generally correctly and be passable, but that's beyond half the players I meet.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If you have higher standards you want to force everyone in the group to play to your standards. If you want to control how other people play their character you should probably make your own group.

If you have lower standards that likely only applies to your own play. You're not going to get mad at someone who's doing optimal rotations and try to force them down to a lower standard.

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This is the enabling culture people are talking about. Playing poorly does impact the group. Sure the degree of impact may depend on person and which side on you are on. Though one cannot argue in good faith that a players performance does not impact the group.

Sure it sucks getting people to queue with higher standards, but we are told to find friends and do a PF so why not setup a PF for freestyle sam, melee rdm, no tank stance tank and no heal healer. I am sure they will get far. Point remains if one wants to play poorly fine, but if they want to play poorly they should also be told to find friends or use PF.


In the end the same standard should apply, if people want to have higher standards they are told to queue with friends and or use PF.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I get that this is more of a general thing, but again i have to say i don’t think knowing your rotation and knowing to do positionals, do aoes in dungeons, or knowing to equip yourself with a higher item level weapon is having a high standard. That really should just be the norm. No ones expecting people to be top tier raiders in casual content, or forcing that down their throats. We just want people to do the basics for their job. In the end, it’s a multiplayer game. Your actions affect others whether you like it or not. Going into a multiplayer game, or moreso an mmo i should say. Most people should be willing to want to improve or at least understand the basics of the game whether that means spending 5 mins to ask someone or look up a guide or anything really.

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Everyone has a different line when it comes to what they find acceptable from other players, but these standards aren't enforced by the game. Given the long time limits and easy content the game seems designed to accommodate MUCH less.

So, I do think it's fair to say that if you have a hard standard and can't tolerate less, you'll need to create your own group to ensure that standard is met. I'm not saying that to be derisive or imply your standards are unreasonable; I'm just stating the reality of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Awha

This is the enabling culture people are talking about. Playing poorly does impact the group. Sure the degree of impact may depend on person and which side on you are on. Though one cannot argue in good faith that a players performance does not impact the group.

Sure it sucks getting people to queue with higher stand


In the end the same standard should apply, if people want to have higher standards they are told to queue with friends and or use PF.

So the same should be said for the other side of the fence. Both have an impact on the party.

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Everything impacts the group if we're going to be obtuse about it. Bad WIFI; old PC; classes that don't perform as well in dungeons as others; etc.

If you want to control external factors like individual playstyles or capability then you need to make your own group, or get a consensus for a vote kick; there's just no other way. If you care how other people play you need to create a situation where you control the other people you're playing with.

If you want to hold only yourself to a lower standard, however, you can do that and the game will accommodate it by throwing you very easy content with ample time to complete it. It's not your job to meet other peoples arbitrary standards, because everyone you group with will be different and expect different things.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Everyone has a different line when it comes to what they find acceptable from other players, but these standards aren't enforced by the game. Given the long time limits and easy content the game seems designed to accommodate MUCH less.

So, I do think it's fair to say that if you have a hard standard and can't tolerate less, you'll need to create your own group to ensure that standard is met. I'm not saying that to be derisive or imply your standards are unreasonable; I'm just stating the reality of the situation.


Everything impacts the group if we're going to be obtuse about it. Bad WIFI; old PC; classes that don't perform as well in dungeons as others; etc.

If you want to control external factors like individual playstyles or capability then you need to make your own group, or get a consensus for a vote kick; there's just no other way. If you care how other people play you need to create a situation where you control the other people you're playing with.

If you want to hold only yourself to a lower standard, however, you can do that and the game will accommodate it by throwing you very easy content with ample time to complete it. It's not your job to meet other peoples arbitrary standards, because everyone you group with will be different and expect different things.

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This is where ill disagree only because there are forms of "casual" content where people do need to know their jobs or it does severely impact others. An example i gave earlier was Titania. It was a major wall for people because it had an actual dps check. If people cant clear it they cant progress with the msq they love so much. So are you saying everyone should just start making a pf to clear a casual trial because other people dont want to take 10 mins to look at a guide or they for some reaosn cant tell an IL385 weapon is better than an IL 290 one? I only care how other people play when its affecting others. Thats the reason why its such a problem in a multiplayer game. No other mmo has as severe of a problem as this game does in regards to this and its the enabling culture that makes it so. People just want to sweep the problems under the rug instead of address it like threads like this attempt to do.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

This is where ill disagree only because there are forms of "casual" content where people do need to know their jobs or it does severely impact others. An example i gave earlier was Titania. It was a major wall for people because it had an actual dps check. If people cant clear it they cant progress with the msq they love so much. So are you saying everyone should just start making a pf to clear a casual trial because other people dont want to take 10 mins to look at a guide or they for some reaosn cant tell an IL385 weapon is better than an IL 290 one? I only care how other people play when its affecting others. Thats the reason why its such a problem in a multiplayer game. No other mmo has as severe of a problem as this game does in regards to this and its the enabling culture that makes it so. People just want to sweep the problems under the rug instead of address it like threads like this attempt to do.

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If you can't actually clear the content then it's a problem and people need to improve; I can agree with that.

The problem is taking one instance of casual content where people need to 'git gud' and attempting to apply it to everything. Has Titania 'really' been an impassable wall for most of us in the story because the casual community as a whole just isn't good enough?

I feel like casual content in this game gets cleared frequently and pretty quickly most of the time. It's not that the community isn't good or committed enough; it's just not as good as you want it to be. Thing is that your standard is arbitrary, you can't enforce it and you can't really make a convincing case that there's a serious problem with people getting stuck on casual content.

All I can really tell you is what I've been telling you; if you want to ensure a certain standard is always met you'll have to make your own groups.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Everyone has a different line when it comes to what they find acceptable from other players, but these standards aren't enforced by the game. Given the long time limits and easy content the game seems designed to accommodate MUCH less.

So, I do think it's fair to say that if you have a hard standard and can't tolerate less, you'll need to create your own group to ensure that standard is met. I'm not saying that to be derisive or imply your standards are unreasonable; I'm just stating the reality of the situation.


Everything impacts the group if we're going to be obtuse about it. Bad WIFI; old PC; classes that don't perform as well in dungeons as others; etc.

If you want to control external factors like individual playstyles or capability then you need to make your own group, or get a consensus for a vote kick; there's just no other way. If you care how other people play you need to create a situation where you control the other people you're playing with.

If you want to hold only yourself to a lower standard, however, you can do that and the game will accommodate it by throwing you very easy content with ample time to complete it. It's not your job to meet other peoples arbitrary standards, because everyone you group with will be different and expect different things.

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I agree if you run into someone that does not meet your standards or is a general inconvenience then they should be voted out the group, or play with friends etc. . . I also just feel the same should be promoted on the other side.

My point is more so about the double standard. It is okay to tell people who have higher standards to queue with friends. Though people with lower standards are told do not worry about it content is easy enough. People should not remove you for playing poorly that is abuse. People should just deal with it.

I have never understood this mindset. If people tell others to find like minded individuals to avoid conflict and issues regarding higher standards same should be said to those with lower standards. Instead of vilify those that remove said players from groups. It is a subjective standard on either front but for some reason when it comes to playing poorly you run into much moral grandstanding. All I am saying is suggestions that are good for us with higher standards should be just as good for those with lower standards.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I agree if you run into someone that does not meet your standards or is a general inconvenience then they should be voted out the group, or play with friends etc. . . I also just feel the same should be promoted on the other side.

My point is more so about the double standard. It is okay to tell people who have higher standards to queue with friends. Though people with lower standards are told do not worry about it content is easy enough. People should not remove you for playing poorly that is abuse. People should just deal with it.

I have never understood this mindset. If people tell others to find like minded individuals to avoid conflict and issues regarding higher standards same should be said to those with lower standards. Instead of vilify those that remove said players from groups. It is a subjective standard on either front but for some reason when it comes to playing poorly you run into much moral grandstanding. All I am saying is suggestions that are good for us with higher standards should be just as good for those with lower standards.

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I'm fine with vote kicking anyone mainly because you need a consensus vote. If the whole group agrees then it just wasn't meant to be, so you queue again and hope to find a better fit.

I just disagree that the whole 'make your own group' thing is a double standard. People with high standards want to control how YOU play YOUR character. People with low standards just want to control how they play THEIR character. It's a pretty important difference. The level of control people with high standards want will require them to make their own group to ensure their standard is met. People with low standards don't have the same restriction by design.

"say it or something"
"or you cannot respond to what they write to you"

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If I make a mistake because my hand locked up at the wrong moment I just say "my bad sorry, I was too slow" and 99% of the time people are okay with it. It sucks that I have to be dishonest to protect myself from prejudice and accusations but it's better to do that than potentially stalling the instance because someone's incorrect ideas about disability cause an argument.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Why are your expectations of other players higher than the expectations of the game itself?

This is quite simple to navigate. Playing badly in Savage+ or being half afk in Extreme? Just kick them.

Anything below? You're already losing braincells by being in the so-called "expert" dungeons, why lose more by caring about what happens around you? Just turn your brain off, do the dungeon, get out.

This isn't going to change at this point.

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Because it is an attitude that ends up infecting other game modes where you DO harm other players, why do you think that in Frontline you find people who do not use potions? Because as they have never read his skills in PVE. Why do you see healers using cure 1 when they have 100% mana? Because it's how they have always cured in PVE.

Also of course I am going to be attentive to my companions if someone misplaces I use a Blackest Night to help them.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm fine with vote kicking anyone mainly because you need a consensus vote. If the whole group agrees then it just wasn't meant to be, so you queue again and hope to find a better fit.

I just disagree that the whole 'make your own group' thing is a double standard. People with high standards want to control how YOU play YOUR character. People with low standards just want to control how they play THEIR character. It's a pretty important difference. The level of control people with high standards want will need to make their own group to ensure their standard is met. People with low standards don't have the same restriction by design.

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Thing is at the very least for me cannot speak for others I do not care how you play I want people to play how they want. Just do not want to personally deal with it. For this I have been told to run with friends or use PF which I agree SE does provide people with tools to help ensure a certain play experience or at the very least try.

In the end both aspects do have an impact on the party that is my point. Sure from your point it is not so much the impact on the party per-se but the level of control that those who have higher standards place on those with lower standards.

I would be inclined to agree but as seen in this thread when people like myself support liberal use of the vote kick feature it is met with disagreement because I could simply just leave instead of imposing my standards on others. Though aren't they doing the same? At the core? It requires us to add extra variables and conditions to establish a difference which I get some like to see shades of grey though for me those shades are often subjective and rather not be bogged down by them so I go over the core concept. Which is that if people want to play a certain way and guarantee that they style of play then they should use friends or PF.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

"say it or something"
"or you cannot respond to what they write to you"



Because it is an attitude that ends up infecting other game modes where you DO harm other players, why do you think that in Frontline you find people who do not use potions? Because as they have never read his skills in PVE. Why do you see healers using cure 1 when they have 100% mana? Because it's how they have always cured in PVE.

Also of course I am going to be attentive to my companions if someone misplaces I use a Blackest Night to help them.

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This game has PvP?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Humans will naturally take the path of least resistance. The game's casual content offers no resistance. This won't change.

If you want to save yourself some frustration, stop caring about how people perform in braindead casual dungeons.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

This game has PvP?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Humans will naturally take the path of least resistance. The game's casual content offers no resistance. This won't change.

If you want to save yourself some frustration, stop caring about how people perform in braindead casual dungeons.

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Nice fallacies right?
Have you invented that I "get frustrated" when the reality is that I or someone tells you something you are doing, do you ignore it or do not want to do it? We kick you.

Look how frustrated or how many headaches it gives me to have to press two buttons

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

This game has PvP?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Humans will naturally take the path of least resistance. The game's casual content offers no resistance. This won't change.

If you want to save yourself some frustration, stop caring about how people perform in braindead casual dungeons.

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If people speak up about it maybe it will change. But in the end it’s on the company to do that, and Square isn’t exactly the most communicative unfortunately. Don’t even use their own official forums for feedback and instead turn to twitter :/

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Pages and pages on and people still are glossing over a very simple point I have made time and time again. That it takes the smallest amount of effort to do things generally correctly and be passable, but that's beyond half the players I meet.

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because people have no counter argument to that and have to strawman and make up excuses for just this
absolutely no one in this thread was complaining about people making avoidable mistakes here and there - no, it was about people not knowing and refusing to learn how to play their classes

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

People are always like, "what's a few extra minutes"? It's not just a few, it's several. Many times doubling the length of dungeons.. Many times making it unbearable in raid content, even leading to wipes.

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not to mention that those minutes add up, too

like, I don't mind if a dungeon or a raid is a shitshow, I think it's fun and all, but a quick one because everyone played well is fun, too!
but when eden's promise eternity keeps wiping because both healers cast cure 1 and physick and nothing else, then there's something wrong, not to mention eating every mechanic even if we wiped to it several times before, that IS an issue

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Originally Posted by Awha

This is the enabling culture people are talking about. Playing poorly does impact the group. Sure the degree of impact may depend on person and which side on you are on. Though one cannot argue in good faith that a players performance does not impact the group.

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No one needs to argue that because the amount of impact for each person is subjective. There is no argument to be made.

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Sure it sucks getting people to queue with higher standards, but we are told to find friends and do a PF so why not setup a PF for freestyle sam, melee rdm, no tank stance tank and no heal healer. I am sure they will get far. Point remains if one wants to play poorly fine, but if they want to play poorly they should also be told to find friends or use PF.


In the end the same standard should apply, if people want to have higher standards they are told to queue with friends and or use PF.

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You don't choose your party in DF. You choose your party in PF. If you care about who you party with, use the tool that facilitates that.

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Originally Posted by linayar

No one needs to argue that because the amount of impact for each person is subjective. There is no argument to be made.

You don't choose your party in DF. You choose your party in PF. If you care about who you party with, use the tool that facilitates that.

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That doesnt change the fact things need to change. Please stop just sweeping things under the rug when theres a very prevalent problem. This isnt even just limited to people not happy with who they get paired with. It's a problem with the game and the things they dont teach that should really be in the tutorial. There is an argument to be made for that.

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Originally Posted by linayar

No one needs to argue that because the amount of impact for each person is subjective. There is no argument to be made.

You don't choose your party in DF. You choose your party in PF. If you care about who you party with, use the tool that facilitates that.

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That is my point, if one cares to play a certain way and guarantee that style of play they should use PF or queue with friends. That means if you want to be a freestyle sam, a meled rdm, or a try hard ninja wherever the your cards fall they should use the tools provided by SE.

Thing is when it comes to people with higher standards we are told we should do x y and z but those who wish to do play poorly and mention they were removed they are told it should not have happened, that it is toxic, those people should use PF.

In the end you are right you do not pick the DF so people really should not complain if they are removed from the DF due to playing a certain way that did not mesh with the group. If they want to guarantee how they play queue with friends or use the PF. That is my point the same standard should be applied to both sides.

This was mentioned in the other post. It is subjective in terms to the degree of how an action impacts the group what is not subjective is each action voluntary or involuntary does impact the group. Though I mentioned that part cause the person I mentioned I think I misunderstood them but was saying playing poorly did not impact the group or impact the group in the same way due to the nature of the higher standard tries to dictate how another one plays. Though I was trying to explain that the degree if the impact is moot cause that varies from person to person so we should so focus on what is the core issue that creates the double standard imo. Which is if people want to guarantee a certain style of play only way to go about it is to queue with friends or use the PF. This goes for high low and every in between.

That is all.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Pages and pages on and people still are glossing over a very simple point I have made time and time again. That it takes the smallest amount of effort to do things generally correctly and be passable, but that's beyond half the players I meet.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

because people have no counter argument to that and have to strawman and make up excuses for just this
absolutely no one in this thread was complaining about people making avoidable mistakes here and there - no, it was about people not knowing and refusing to learn how to play their classes

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Or its still going on because it's the same posters arguing to one another about the same thing in a cozy hamster wheel.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

Nice fallacies right?
Have you invented that I "get frustrated" when the reality is that I or someone tells you something you are doing, do you ignore it or do not want to do it? We kick you.

Look how frustrated or how many headaches it gives me to have to press two buttons

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What fallacies? And why are you taking it so personally? It's not even about you, it's a general statement.

Maybe try reading again to understand the point instead of getting defensive for no reason.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That doesnt change the fact things need to change. Please stop just sweeping things under the rug when theres a very prevalent problem. This isnt even just limited to people not happy with who they get paired with. It's a problem with the game and the things they dont teach that should really be in the tutorial. There is an argument to be made for that.

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Except I would agree that the game should teach the players more and better. My posts have not been about that, though. Have you misunderstood my posts?

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Originally Posted by Awha

That is my point, if one cares to play a certain way and guarantee that style of play they should use PF or queue with friends. That means if you want to be a freestyle sam, a meled rdm, or a try hard ninja wherever the your cards fall they should use the tools provided by SE.

Thing is when it comes to people with higher standards we are told we should do x y and z but those who wish to do play poorly and mention they were removed they are told it should not have happened, that it is toxic, those people should use PF.

In the end you are right you do not pick the DF so people really should not complain if they are removed from the DF due to playing a certain way that did not mesh with the group. If they want to guarantee how they play queue with friends or use the PF. That is my point the same standard should be applied to both sides.

This was mentioned in the other post. It is subjective in terms to the degree of how an action impacts the group what is not subjective is each action voluntary or involuntary does impact the group. Though I mentioned that part cause the person I mentioned I think I misunderstood them but was saying playing poorly did not impact the group or impact the group in the same way due to the nature of the higher standard tries to dictate how another one plays. Though I was trying to explain that the degree if the impact is moot cause that varies from person to person so we should so focus on what is the core issue that creates the double standard imo. Which is if people want to guarantee a certain style of play only way to go about it is to queue with friends or use the PF. This goes for high low and every in between.

That is all.

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Well, while I can see why that would be ideal, I guess it depends on what the majority is like. Just the fact that the NA region has relegated hard contents to PF would make me conclude that they have given up on DF. So, in that case, I would just say go with the flow.

I'm kind of baffled by "that" part of the playerbase tbh.

There is nothing enjoyable in knowing you're putting in the work for someone that can't be bothered to press a button every 2.5secs in a co-op environment.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

I'm kind of baffled by "that" part of the playerbase tbh.

There is nothing enjoyable in knowing you're putting in the work for someone that can't be bothered to press a button every 2.5secs in a co-op environment.

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Uh, believe it or not, there is a kind of a power fantasy fulfillment in being able to clear the content almost by yourself.

With that said, I'm always too busy pressing my own buttons to notice what others are doing or not doing most of the time unless it becomes really obvious, like stopping a battle obvious. Those are rare, though.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Uh, believe it or not, there is a kind of a power fantasy fulfillment in being able to clear the content almost by yourself.

With that said, I'm always too busy pressing my own buttons to notice what others are doing or not doing most of the time unless it becomes really obvious, like stopping a battle obvious. Those are rare, though.

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As a healer I definitely understand that fantasy, but it really requires at least 5 or 6 players being clueless, including my co-healer, to get a kick out of it in casual content

As an AST I have to watch what everyone in the party is up to as much as I can, so that stuff is jarring to me x-x

So I don't really get why someone would defend lazyness

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Originally Posted by linayar

Except I would agree that the game should teach the players more and better. My posts have not been about that, though. Have you misunderstood my posts?

Well, while I can see why that would be ideal, I guess it depends on what the majority is like. Just the fact that the NA region has relegated hard contents to PF would make me conclude that they have given up on DF. So, in that case, I would just say go with the flow.

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Maybe but I will still advocate for people who want to guarantee a certain style or level of play should use PF or queue with friends. Also if people run into a style of play they do not agree with or inconvenienced by try their hand at removing them before just accepting the 30 min timer.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Uh, believe it or not, there is a kind of a power fantasy fulfillment in being able to clear the content almost by yourself.

With that said, I'm always too busy pressing my own buttons to notice what others are doing or not doing most of the time unless it becomes really obvious, like stopping a battle obvious. Those are rare, though.

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I also did not notice at first that is why I say having installed ACT was one of the best / worse things I have done in this game. Just confirmed my suspensions. Though I do get the desire some have to just go with the flow.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

As an AST I have to watch what everyone in the party is up to as much as I can, so that stuff is jarring to me x-x

So I don't really get why someone would defend lazyness

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Yeah,I'm on WHM most of the time, or tank in dungeons. It's pretty easy to spot people not using abilities, having buffs up, castbars, etc.. When I am on my WHM my entire damage "rotation" is pretty much one button. Even if I wasn't watching healthbars, or the raid, I'd still be able to tell something is wrong by how long particular fights are taking. It's why I don't really believe people when they say they don't see it, or it doesn't happen often... it does happen often.. like, really often..

I just don't really pay that close of attention to what others are doing. Even if I notice people doing something that I wouldn't necessarily do that way, I don't really get upset by it. I'm doing what I do regardless of what other people are doing. Who cares if someone isn't trying as hard as me, or isn't able to try as hard as me?

If something someone else is doing, or not doing, adds to the challenge of the encounter for me I try to find things that I can do personally to overcome that challenge. That's part of what makes this game, and mmos in general, fun-- is that it's unpredictable because you are playing with other people. If everyone just followed their rotations and executed every fight perfectly you might as well be playing a single player game with bots.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

As a healer I definitely understand that fantasy, but it really requires at least 5 or 6 players being clueless, including my co-healer, to get a kick out of it in casual content

As an AST I have to watch what everyone in the party is up to as much as I can, so that stuff is jarring to me x-x

So I don't really get why someone would defend lazyness

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Ugh, one of the reasons why I hate being healer is I don't like paying attention to my party. I'm too focused on DPSing as a healer and then I forgot to heal, so I have to switch my focus to healing, then I see they're at max HP, so I start getting the itch to DPS again.

Then I just never touch healer again and focus on what I like to do. SCH FTW to complete role quest.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Ugh, one of the reasons why I hate being healer is I don't like paying attention to my party. I'm too focused on DPSing as a healer and then I forgot to heal, so I have to switch my focus to healing, then I see they're at max HP, so I start getting the itch to DPS again.

Then I just never touch healer again and focus on what I like to do. SCH FTW to complete role quest.

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What? It's called multitasking. Do you get hit by avoidable mechanics, because you are looking at HP bars, or your skill tray? :confused:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

What? It's called multitasking. Do you get hit by avoidable mechanics, because you are looking at HP bars, or your skill tray? :confused:

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I focus on my hotbars, my HP/MP bars, and the enemy cast bar. I don't look at party bar unless I'm trying to res someone. I don't get hit by avoidable mechanics most of the time, but I also don't have to do anything differently other than move my joystick.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I focus on my hotbars, my HP/MP bars, and the enemy cast bar. I don't look at party bar unless I'm trying to res someone. I don't get hit by avoidable mechanics most of the time, but I also don't have to do anything differently other than move my joystick.

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Why in the world would you not bother even glancing at the party bar while healing?? Lmfao

Anyway yeah, XIV's playerbase nowadays is rancid when it comes to both participating in and enabling poor play across the board. I have never seen an MMO defend genuinely toxic players who do not want to learn, do not want to try, and are willfully and gleefully making things harder on everyone else in the party, more than I have in this game. I honestly don't know what to blame at this point, other than the NA/EU mindset of "only I matter, who cares if everyone around me is struggling or inconvenienced, only my fun and time matters".

It's gotten to the point I rarely queue for anything without a friend or two who I know actually play like they have a working braincell and are aware they are participating in team-based activities. I still very much enjoy the content the game is putting out, but the playerbase' attitude towards improvement and performing to the basic standards of their jobs makes doing the content less enjoyable. Kind of fear where we'll be in a couple years if there isn't some massive improvement in how people approach playing with others.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Why in the world would you not bother even glancing at the party bar while healing?? Lmfao

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Well, that's why I don't heal. Did you not read the earlier post? lol

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I honestly don't know what to blame at this point, other than the NA/EU mindset of "only I matter, who cares if everyone around me is struggling or inconvenienced, only my fun and time matters".

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Well, that seems to be a common mindset shared by all types of players.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Well, that's why I don't heal. Did you not read the earlier post? lol

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I'm more mystified why you'd even try to play/level healers at all if you can't at least train or remind yourself to pay attention to one of the most important things on the screen for the job role.

Especially when most healer dps rotations consist of a single button and a DoT refresh every now and then.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

I'm more mystified why you'd even try to play/level healers at all if you can't at least train or remind yourself to pay attention to one of the most important things on the screen for the job role.

Especially when most healer dps rotations consist of a single button and a DoT refresh every now and then.

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How would I know if I can't if I don't try it. I managed to run a dungeon successfully with FC friends, but I hated it. Running it with two healer mains in voice comm probably didn't help.

As for leveling a healer, plenty of reasons, like getting Goddess of Magic title and doing role quest. Fortunately, there are ways to level solo, or SCH.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...30/710/dd0.png

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Originally Posted by linayar

How would I know if I can't if I don't try it. I managed to run a dungeon successfully with FC friends, but I hated it.

As for leveling a healer, plenty of reasons, like getting Goddess of Magic title and doing role quest. Fortunately, there are ways to level solo, or SCH.

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SCH has to pay as much attention to the party bar as the rest of the healers, so I really don't know how you couldn't learn or remind yourself to pop a look to the left of your screen (or wherever your party menu is placed). And if the party menu is the issue, just... move it? Closer? To where you can see it in your periphery?? I mean you have to look at it to res people don't you?

Seriously, you already claim to be multitasking by paying attention to various other different parts of the screen - why is the most important thing for a healer to pay attention to somehow not possible? I am genuinely baffled.

I think the point is that SCH levels up with SMN, so you have a built in healer to do the role quests but you can focus solely on the DPS when you're actually playing content.