Tank healing is to high

as a war player bloodwhetting just feels so good, a nerf right now would be like a stab in the heart. being able to solo some raid content is like one of the hidden gems of a mmorpgs metaverse. for dungeons you still get plenty of dmg from the adds, timing and aligning still count. for savage the shield half pops right away but offers good mitigation. it isn't game breaking but the d*ck wave is pretty high atm

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Originally Posted by smol_cofe

as a war player bloodwhetting just feels so good, a nerf right now would be like a stab in the heart. being able to solo some raid content is like one of the hidden gems of a mmorpgs metaverse. for dungeons you still get plenty of dmg from the adds, timing and aligning still count. for savage the shield half pops right away but offers good mitigation. it isn't game breaking but the d*ck wave is pretty high atm

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I'm sorry but... when a tank can solo tank busters, party stacks, and literally every mechanic in current content that's not savage, how is that anything but game breaking?

It would be one thing if it was level unsync, but again, this is current content and not even max ilvl.

The lengths people are going to defend tanks being so brokenly overpowered is absurd. I get it, it's fun and cool and awesome to be OP. I would love it if I could take a healer into current 8-person content and solo it and shrug off tankbusters and party stacks alike, or even a DPS. It would feel awesome for sure. But for any role, this really isn't good for the game overall.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I'm sorry but... when a tank can solo tank busters, party stacks, and literally every mechanic in current content that's not savage, how is that anything but game breaking?

It would be one thing if it was level unsync, but again, this is current content and not even max ilvl.

The lengths people are going to defend tanks being so brokenly overpowered is absurd. I get it, it's fun and cool and awesome to be OP. I would love it if I could take a healer into current 8-person content and solo it and shrug off tankbusters and party stacks alike, or even a DPS. It would feel awesome for sure. But for any role, this really isn't good for the game overall.

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The issue isn't necessarily Warrior or the tanks themselves but how comically low content is tuned. Dungeons simply don't deal enough damage to offset the mitigation and sustain tools at our disposal. Even normal modes lack outgoing damage ala the recent Warrior solo of P1N. This all roots back to the same fundamental problem: SE's refusal to make content below EX difficulty anything beyond a participation award.

Taking away the healing aspect of tanks just neutered their gameplay into being glorified DPS who occasionally press a mitigation button. If they even need said mitigation in the first place. What needs to be addressed is the core issue so we aren't reducing another role to essentially being a gimped DPS. In fact, fixing the outgoing damage will only benefit both tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I'm sorry but... when a tank can solo tank busters, party stacks, and literally every mechanic in current content that's not savage, how is that anything but game breaking?

It would be one thing if it was level unsync, but again, this is current content and not even max ilvl.

The lengths people are going to defend tanks being so brokenly overpowered is absurd. I get it, it's fun and cool and awesome to be OP. I would love it if I could take a healer into current 8-person content and solo it and shrug off tankbusters and party stacks alike, or even a DPS. It would feel awesome for sure. But for any role, this really isn't good for the game overall.

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None of that is possible in the difficult content that's actually tightly tuned. If the devs wanted to make the content harder, they should have.

Again, make the damage threatening. Even if you nerf tank sustainability you know what sill still happen? Normal mode content will still be a stupidly easy slog where the healers can just throw out a couple of off GCDs every now and then and not worry about the tank at all anyway. What are you going to do then? Keep nerfing it until it feels awful playing the role? What incentive would I have to play a tank if our damage sucks (it's like 60% of the lowest DPS job's output compared to like HW where you could do 80% of a DPS output) but we're reliant on other roles to do anything? If the damage output on the role is fine (and I think it is for the most part other than the obvious issues with PLD being too low atm) then we get increased agency in return.

Literally no worse feeling in the world than getting dragged down by people because I as the tank can do NOTHING to increase our chances of success. Tanks have no raise, tanks on their own cannot meet DPS checks (of which there should be MORE of). The ONLY reason we can survive so well without the help of healers is because the devs tune the damage incredibly low on the vast, vast majority of content. Healers have all these extremely powerful healing tools that never get put to good use UNLESS their party messes up constantly, forcing more powerful resources out to make up for their deficiencies.

I remember progging T13 back in the day, and I remember getting hit by Akh Morn for the first time. THAT was an incredible feeling. It absolutely DESTROYED tanks back then, and the longer the fight went on the more help was needed to mitigate it. Tanks on their own could not CD through it with how frequent it came up and with how increasingly hard it hit. You needed Mantra, Convalesence, Storm's Path, Virus, Dragon Kick on top of tank CDs. These were not OPTIONAL tools for this, they are mandatory.

I want MORE of that, and I want a taste of it in casual content too. Bosses should hit harder, and I think healer players would enjoy using their tools more often too. Obviously not everything has to be minimum item level T13 Akh Morn levels of damage but come on.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

-snip-

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Two problems can exist at once. Yes, it would be nice if damage in regular content was tuned higher. (Been asking for that for more than half a decade now and it hasn't materialized)

But that doesn't change that the current tank kits are broken beyond belief. Even if SE does tune up damage in regular content, this is still a problem that needs to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Two problems can exist at once. Yes, it would be nice if damage in regular content was tuned higher. (Been asking for that for more than half a decade now and it hasn't materialized)

But that doesn't change that the current tank kits are broken beyond belief. Even if SE does tune up damage in regular content, this is still a problem that needs to be fixed.

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Tanks kits are broken beyond belief somehow, but healer's aren't? They can literally heal even the hardest content in the game with planned out oGCDs while also dealing sizable damage (close to tanks in current content, higher than tanks in previous expansions) while also being able to raise and proving DPS increases. But tank kits are broken, not healers.

Yeah, right.

Increase the threat of damage, don't touch tank or healer toolkits at all in terms of power budget. You increase damage dealt to players, you fix both problems at once.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I\\'m sorry but... when a tank can solo tank busters, party stacks, and literally every mechanic in current content that\\'s not savage, how is that anything but game breaking?

It would be one thing if it was level unsync, but again, this is current content and not even max ilvl.

The lengths people are going to defend tanks being so brokenly overpowered is absurd. I get it, it\\'s fun and cool and awesome to be OP. I would love it if I could take a healer into current 8-person content and solo it and shrug off tankbusters and party stacks alike, or even a DPS. It would feel awesome for sure. But for any role, this really isn\\'t good for the game overall.

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well the loot table of that raid is locked to 1 drop per character per reset so, no, it isn't game breaking being that the goal of completing it is ilvl progression to get into savage(p3/4) content, and the other goal being to have fun. warbros, we got too cocky? we're having too much fun probably.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Two problems can exist at once. Yes, it would be nice if damage in regular content was tuned higher. (Been asking for that for more than half a decade now and it hasn't materialized)

But that doesn't change that the current tank kits are broken beyond belief. Even if SE does tune up damage in regular content, this is still a problem that needs to be fixed.

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If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

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The damage in P3 normal is so high, it's more threatening than the damage I take in P1S or P2S.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

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First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Taking away the healing aspect of tanks just neutered their gameplay into being glorified DPS who occasionally press a mitigation button. If they even need said mitigation in the first place. What needs to be addressed is the core issue so we aren't reducing another role to essentially being a gimped DPS. In fact, fixing the outgoing damage will only benefit both tanks and healers.

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This is correct. There's a lot of focus on what feels good in the short term over what is engaging and interesting in the long term. Difficulty depends on both your mitigation toolkit and how hard the content pushes you to actually use it. The imbalance comes from both sides.

It's not that the ability to solo some of the easier/older content itself is a bad thing. It can be fun, especially if there's an element of player skill that is involved. But as it becomes easier to do and more commonplace, it reflects problems with both the progressive inflation of our mitigation toolkits, as well as in fight tuning. Likewise, I think that healer ennui is another symptom of these two problems.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

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No it isn't.

You're essentially putting all the blame on tank sustain and mitigation being too high, thus impacting healer gameplay. I'm simply countering that by pointing out the sheer bevvy of healer oGCD is an equally if not bigger contributor factor to that same problem. To cite my original post, what does nerfing all the tank sustain accomplish? P1N will still remain a laughable joke for healers who will spam their nuke and nothing else. All that's changed is a reduction in tank's gameplay.

Regardless, did you actually read my argument? Because you missed this part:

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

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The crux of my point is this design philosophy shouldn't be exclusive to Savage but featured in every level of content because it actually puts our kits to work, albeit still not to the extent it probably should. Once again, we're rooting back to the actual issue here: outgoing damage is embarrassingly low, and simply can't overcome both the toolkits tanks and healers possess. It's a mutual problem not an exclusive one.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

First point is a strawman argument.

-

As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

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You are missing the point of the person you quoted. What is being said is more content needs to be tuned with similar incoming damage, not "just go do savage".

And yes, the content tuning is largely responsible. Saying that across the board, all tank kits are "broken beyond belief" is what is absurd.

And really, what do the healer mains complaining about tank heals think is going to change if they remove them? Since the content is generally so undertuned you might have to throw out an extra ogcd, that is about it. It wouldn't cause very much change in the gameplay experience at all. You would still be doing 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No it isn't.

You're essentially putting all the blame on tank sustain and mitigation being too high, thus impacting healer gameplay. I'm simply countering that by pointing out the sheer bevvy of healer oGCD is an equally if not bigger contributor factor to that same problem. To cite my original post, what does nerfing all the tank sustain accomplish? P1N will still remain a laughable joke for healers who will spam their nuke and nothing else. All that's changed is a reduction in tank's gameplay.

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These are some amazing backflips your doing. Its healers fault that they are irrelevant? lol

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

These are some amazing backflips your doing. Its healers fault that they are irrelevant? lol

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Sigh...

Like Rhais said above, you're missing the entire point. It's the encounter design alongside how overpowered both tanks and healers are relative to it that compounds on top of each other. In a sense though, yes, healer's own tools reduce the impact their role has because they simply have too many options. For the third time now, what would nerfing every single tank's sustain actually accomplish? Would you have more to heal? No, you wouldn't. We know this because Shadowbringers lacked anywhere close to the tank sustain we have now and healers barely did anything beyond DPS. Tanks weren't solo-ing things to the extent they are now but are we really going to argue healers maybe throwing out a single oGCD made them feel any more relevant?

Once more, the core issue is encounter design being woefully undertuned. Reducing tanks back to being DPS who can take hits won't suddenly make the healers any more interesting. We'll just have two roles that are boring instead of one.

To make an analogy, I will use DnD 5e. Wait a moment, you'll get what I mean in a second.
Let's say you want to play a survivalist, a character super good at tracking down things and finding ressources in an hostile environnement, lost in the jungle etc. You pick a druid or a ranger, get a good rank in survival and nature, take spells and abilities that makes it easier to navigate and find your way.

But in actual sessions, it just means that this whole part of the adventure is trivialized and made irrelevant by your character. You made this character because you wanted to experience exploration and survival, but their abilities make it so easy that it'll likely be ignored completely. Paradoxically, if you enjoy that survival, exploration, getting lost and finding food etc aspect you are better off playing a character that is NOT built to do this thing.

Healers are kind of in the same situation. I assume most healer mains play healer because they enjoy healing and managing the survival of their party. But if the fights are too easy/their tool too powerful, they won't have much to do or to enjoy.
Imagine if a DPS killed all the ennemies a third of the way into their rotation. As if everything was like floor 55 of palace of the dead. That's what healers are complaining about.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

To make an analogy, I will use DnD 5e. Wait a moment, you'll get what I mean in a second.
Let's say you want to play a survivalist, a character super good at tracking down things and finding ressources in an hostile environnement, lost in the jungle etc. You pick a druid or a ranger, get a good rank in survival and nature, take spells and abilities that makes it easier to navigate and find your way.

But in actual sessions, it just means that this whole part of the adventure is trivialized and made irrelevant by your character. You made this character because you wanted to experience exploration and survival, but their abilities make it so easy that it'll likely be ignored completely. Paradoxically, if you enjoy that survival, exploration, getting lost and finding food etc aspect you are better off playing a character that is NOT built to do this thing.

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Your analogy. It cuts so deep.

(At least if/when you didn't coordinate beforehand with your GM to make that portion of the experience damn near impossible without those skills and similar actions (likely to be synergetic results of less direct means of dealing with that area of content), which is basically the case here, since the devs are insistent on making most content healable even by those only half-competent and only half-awake.)

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

-snip-.

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Since you seem to be continuing with your strawman argument, let me explain the problem with it.

The source of healing doesn't matter if the healing simply isn't needed.

GCD options? oGCD options? Completely irrelevant here. If the party doesn't need healing because tanks (and in some cases, DPS) bring it themselves, then changing healer design doesn't matter.

And, as a nitpick to your nitpick, I've never complained that mitigation is too high. Very high mitigation is fine as long as tanks will eventually die without help. Otherwise, we might as well be Guild Wars or Black Desert and just take healers out altogether. (Which... to be fair, the game certainly hasn't been going in the direction of making healers more relevant).

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Sigh...

Like Rhais said above, you're missing the entire point. It's the encounter design alongside how overpowered both tanks and healers are relative to it that compounds on top of each other. In a sense though, yes, healer's own tools reduce the impact their role has because they simply have too many options. For the third time now, what would nerfing every single tank's sustain actually accomplish? Would you have more to heal? No, you wouldn't. We know this because Shadowbringers lacked anywhere close to the tank sustain we have now and healers barely did anything beyond DPS. Tanks weren't solo-ing things to the extent they are now but are we really going to argue healers maybe throwing out a single oGCD made them feel any more relevant?

Once more, the core issue is encounter design being woefully undertuned. Reducing tanks back to being DPS who can take hits won't suddenly make the healers any more interesting. We'll just have two roles that are boring instead of one.

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This argument's a bit odd, as much as I agree that we shouldn't strip heals from tanks.

Yes, the present low healing requirements mean that we'd still encounter a problem of (roughly) the same type even if we reduced tank's self-sustain, since even Healers' free healing would still be great enough to make GCD healing feel excessive. However, the party would still, very literally, have less excessive healing (speaking in flat terms), if tank sustain was reduced, just as it would if Healers' free (oGCD) healing were reduced.

It would be, imo, a poor approach to handling the situation, but it wouldn't be irrelevant, nor would there be no benefit to healers' place in content resulting from the expense to tanks (even if it'd arguably not be a net positive for the game, and an altogether unnecessary cost regardless).

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

To make an analogy, I will use DnD 5e. Wait a moment, you'll get what I mean in a second.
Let's say you want to play a survivalist, a character super good at tracking down things and finding ressources in an hostile environnement, lost in the jungle etc. You pick a druid or a ranger, get a good rank in survival and nature, take spells and abilities that makes it easier to navigate and find your way.

But in actual sessions, it just means that this whole part of the adventure is trivialized and made irrelevant by your character. You made this character because you wanted to experience exploration and survival, but their abilities make it so easy that it'll likely be ignored completely. Paradoxically, if you enjoy that survival, exploration, getting lost and finding food etc aspect you are better off playing a character that is NOT built to do this thing.

Healers are kind of in the same situation. I assume most healer mains play healer because they enjoy healing and managing the survival of their party. But if the fights are too easy/their tool too powerful, they won't have much to do or to enjoy.
Imagine if a DPS killed all the ennemies a third of the way into their rotation. As if everything was like floor 55 of palace of the dead. That's what healers are complaining about.

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I mean, sort of? That's kind of a separate issue.

Instead, if you want to use a dnd analogy, imagine that you pick up cleric thinking that you want to heal people. But then when you start actually playing, it turns out everyone heals themselves as a natural part of doing damage, so you never need to invoke any of your curatives. The tank gets hit for 20hp on the enemy's turn, but then on his next turn he heals himself for 100hp by hitting that enemy. But the GM promises that every 7 months, there will be a boss fight that the tank can't heal through.

dnd cleric at least has better damage options and brings a lot to a group outside of healing, though.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

dnd cleric at least has better damage options and brings a lot to a group outside of healing, though.

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If by that you mean can literally do everything better than anyone else.


Anywho, to return to the topic at hand:
I reiterate; where's the issue here? Healing is healing, and not having to heal the tanks just means more DPS uptime/more ability to heal the actual red DPS everyone else pretends to be.

Well then the issue is that your "dps uptime" is spamming a single button.
And as said before, you play a healer to manage the heals. If there is nothing to manage why not play something else ?
At that point it almost sound like healers should be Red Mages but with a buffed VerCure and a healing oGCD.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Easiest, most simple "nerf" is just to make it hit one time for 400 potency heal every swing instead of hitting every single target with a heal.

1200-1600 potency worth of "heals" every use, isn't overpowered.



People haven't done current level 8 player raids solo.



Hate to be that guy, but proof please of current 8 man raid content being solo'd at normal ilvl.

So, in this tier alone we've had:

* Both EX trials done without a healer

* Current final 8 man trial done solo

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You can add " solo expert dungeon" to your list

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-5AWkSNw&t=1087s :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

You can add " solo expert dungeon" to your list

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-5AWkSNw&t=1087s :rolleyes:

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I like the fact that he actually had to kite the mobs to do it. Gives me solo deep dungeon vibes.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

You can add " solo expert dungeon" to your list

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-5AWkSNw&t=1087s :rolleyes:

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Imagine being able to use your invuln and not die.

But at least you're not doing 100 more dps.

Edit: 200!

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

You can add " solo expert dungeon" to your list

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-5AWkSNw&t=1087s :rolleyes:

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Imagine being able to cast Benediction w/ a 25s CD on yourself within 2 GCDs on a giant pack of mobs that would normally overwhelm any other tank without the aid of a healer. WAR's busted pls nerf WAR healing.

But in the actual raids, that's a different setting entirely. WAR still comes out on top when it comes to dealing with Tank busters outright because of the raw healing output they can produce every 25s.

I'm really expecting them to nerf Bloodwhetting down to 300 potency per hit, since that weakens the healing quite a bit and can cut down on this craziness while still keeping it pretty good in raid. Because if they go per use...well, that's a MASSIVE nerf to WAR's dungeon survivability.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm really expecting them to nerf Bloodwhetting down to 300 potency per hit, since that weakens the healing quite a bit and can cut down on this craziness while still keeping it pretty good in raid. Because if they go per use...well, that's a MASSIVE nerf to WAR's dungeon survivability.

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I'd rather just revert the heal to a portion of actual damage, rather than a flat hit. It'd still be strong, but there'd be less of a gap between dungeons and raids.

That and halve the healing over time that was tacked onto Equilibrium....

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Since you seem to be continuing with your strawman argument, let me explain the problem with it.

The source of healing doesn't matter if the healing simply isn't needed.

GCD options? oGCD options? Completely irrelevant here. If the party doesn't need healing because tanks (and in some cases, DPS) bring it themselves, then changing healer design doesn't matter

And, as a nitpick to your nitpick, I've never complained that mitigation is too high. Very high mitigation is fine as long as tanks will eventually die without help. Otherwise, we might as well be Guild Wars or Black Desert and just take healers out altogether. (Which... to be fair, the game certainly hasn't been going in the direction of making healers more relevant).

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The problem is your proposed solution doesn't really achieve anything. Which is the crux of my point. Instead of having virtually no healing to do, you press Essential Dignity once in a blue moon. It's hardly what I would call relevancy. Hence my argument being it isn't simply tank sustain but multiple sources stacked on top of each other.

Both tanks and healer kits need to be nerfed and/or outgoing damage balanced around the sheer options available to us. Furthermore, you're ignoring the party does need healing. No DPS can survive any mass pull or normal mode without a healer for long.

Nevertheless, you address this problem by actually adding higher outgoing damage, forced tank swaps, Dooms, consistent triage. Not even Warrior can survive P3N without a healer because you're getting shredded for such a long time, especially if the other tank dies. Bloodwhetting is a little silly in dungeon, but the root problem is how little everything hurts. Look at how many times the Warrior solo-ing P1N comes close to dying. Up Eric's damage by 10% and suddenly no amount of sustain they presently have keeps them alive. Make it so a split stack AoE is impossible to survive solo. Make every boss deal double autos so both tanks are repeatedly taking damage. All of these accomplish the same thing without taking away an aspect of tank's gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This argument's a bit odd, as much as I agree that we shouldn't strip heals from tanks.

Yes, the present low healing requirements mean that we'd still encounter a problem of (roughly) the same type even if we reduced tank's self-sustain, since even Healers' free healing would still be great enough to make GCD healing feel excessive. However, the party would still, very literally, have less excessive healing (speaking in flat terms), if tank sustain was reduced, just as it would if Healers' free (oGCD) healing were reduced.

It would be, imo, a poor approach to handling the situation, but it wouldn't be irrelevant, nor would there be no benefit to healers' place in content resulting from the expense to tanks (even if it'd arguably not be a net positive for the game, and an altogether unnecessary cost regardless).

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Perhaps it is an odd argument in a sense given the topic itself is about tank sustain not necessarily healing output in general. Nevertheless, I brought that up because I'd prefer focusing on the bigger picture as a whole instead of nerfing all the tank sustain, thereby reducing their gameplay to being damage sponges and little else—especially when it won't really impact healer gameplay in a meaningful way. If they nerf Bloodwhetting into the ground come 6.08. What really changes? You'll slap Tetra or ED on the WAR occasionally and need to heal them about as much as in Shadowbringers for dungeons, which wasn't much. In other words, we're back to both roles feeling hollow instead of one. Granted, tanks aren't exactly the most exhilarating role even with the sustain.

To put it simply, I want the devs to see nonsense like this P1N solo and realize how horrendously undertone fights are not decide "nerfing tank sustain will fix everything!"

With that said, I don't disagree with anything you've said either.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'd rather just revert the heal to a portion of actual damage, rather than a flat hit. It'd still be strong, but there'd be less of a gap between dungeons and raids.

That and halve the healing over time that was tacked onto Equilibrium....

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It was the case in ShB and it was powerful, especially in burst phase.
back in that time, i was already doing solo endgame dungeon like the anamnesis or heroes gauntlet solo.

If SE rly want to apply a solid nerf to war, the only option is the paladin way : 1 heal per use but maybe adjusted (600 potency healing as example)

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

It was the case in ShB and it was powerful, especially in burst phase.
back in that time, i was already doing solo endgame dungeon like the anamnesis or heroes gauntlet solo.

If SE rly want to apply a solid nerf to war, the only option is the paladin way : 1 heal per use but maybe adjusted (600 potency healing as example)

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It was powerful, yes, but less so, and its gameplay was more involved. (To call them the same would be like calling 4.1 Inner Release and late-Stormblood Inner Release equally braindead.)

I don't see any reason to make Warrior no longer have the best self-sustain among all tanks; that's always been a part of its identity. It just shouldn't have a contextually double or triple lead.

Why on earth would square think about balancing WAR around dungeons lol. They're not going to do that. I think we all have to accept WARs will simply be busted in content of no real value. I'm fine with that.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Why on earth would square think about balancing WAR around dungeons lol. They're not going to do that. I think we all have to accept WARs will simply be busted in content of no real value. I'm fine with that.

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Reminder, Abyssal Drain allowed DRKs to basically ignore healers during dungeon pulls in Stormblood...it was effectively gutted going into ShB, and now into EW. Something that had 0 uses in raid got gutted because it was too strong in dungeons prior. So the precedent is there.

Why do Warriors want to be so powerful they literally break content? Can't wait for the inevitable nerfs after what I've experienced as a WAR and seeing the recent videos posted. Just accept it's obscenely overpowered and needs to be taken down several notches. You have zero reason to have a million consecutive self-heals as a bloody tank. If you want to heal so much play a healer. Noone in their right mind should be defending the current state of Warriors. They flat out do not need this much self healing.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Why do Warriors want to be so powerful they literally break content? Can't wait for the inevitable nerfs after what I've experienced as a WAR and seeing the recent vides oposted. Just accept it's obscenely overpowered and needs to be taken down several notches. You have zero reason to have a million consecutive self-heals as a bloody tank. If you want to heal so much play a healer. Noone in their right mind should be defending the current state of Warriors. They flat out do not need this much self healing.

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But....warrior is a healer m'am :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It was powerful, yes, but less so, and its gameplay was more involved. (To call them the same would be like calling 4.1 Inner Release and late-Stormblood Inner Release equally braindead.)

I don't see any reason to make Warrior no longer have the best self-sustain among all tanks; that's always been a part of its identity. It just shouldn't have a contextually double or triple lead.

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It was as braindead as the current state of warrior healing trust me, you were fully healed on pack and mono target healing was decent as long as you had an inner chaos or inner release up (and it was almost always the case)

The only difference between shb and ew is now the skill is called bloodwetting, offer a tiny shield and 10% damage reduction on self.


I don't think warrior deserve a nerf tbh but i'm prepared if it's the case, better than being disappointed when the time is come.

From experience, it's relatively rare for the dev team to openly nerf a job. It's similar to their Q+A sessions, in which the answer to every question is 'yes' or 'maybe'. If a popular question simply doesn't show up, it means the answer is 'no'.

Likewise, if they're going to nerf a job, it's generally going to be on the sly during an expansion transition where most people will miss it in the midst of system changes and stat changes. They then whistle innocently and try to make relatively conservative adjustments over the remainder of the expansion with upward balance changes.

I don't think that playing with numbers is enough at this point. They could reduce the healing potency numbers on WAR, but that's a drop in the ocean. They just need to recognize that tank and healer gameplay on the whole is underwhelming, and commit to doing a systematic overhaul of the defensive toolkits to match up with the content difficulty that they're putting out. There's several expansions worth of mitigation inflation that needs to be cut out. I don't mind waiting for it, as long as they're open about their intentions.

It's not unheard of for them to nerf a job. Off the top of my head, PLD got nerfed in StB and MNK got a number of small nerfs in ShB. The devs of course try to minimize nerfs, but when something is breaking the game it should be nerfed.

I've been playing WAR and........yeah, that healing is beyond rediculous and needs to be toned down.

The first time in this game I've actually called for nerfs I think.

WAR healing is fine. It's not unheard of for a job to be able to solo content at level. So long as it is unable to solo EX trials or savages, there's not a problem. In fact, WAR is one of the lesser used tanks in endgame content. This indicates that their self-healing is a non-issue, as it does not upset the balance of the game. Dungeons are irrelevant. Besides, PLD can do pretty much everything WAR can. It just requires a smidge more finesse. People are tunnel visioning too hard on the sheer amount of self-healing WAR has but somehow failing to notice the downsides that level things out a bit. Insane self-healing only really puts in work when you're in content that won't murder you before you have the chance to take full advantage of it.

Rather than destroying WAR's self-healing, it would probably be better to bump the other tanks up a bit in this regard. PLD, at the very least, should probably get back the healing bonus on Requiescat. It would synergize extremely well with their magic burst phase without being gamebreaking. GNB doesn't need much of a nudge either, but DRK... oh man, DRK needs help in the sustain department.

Dropping this here. Really think this needs to be fixed.

While it does take him over an hour to do this, the fact that WAR has enough self sustain to pull this off at all while the content is current is absolutely ridiculous and should probably be addressed.

https://youtu.be/fFcZCEny4x4