#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Amity_Roji

I can give you the WHM perspective.

Mob pulls: HOLYHOLYHOLYHOLYHOLYHOLYHOLY
Bosses: Dia, GLAREGLAREGLAREGLAREGLAREGLAREGLARE

If you're really lucky and you actually had to heal three times, you get to toss out an Afflatus Misery! Woohoo!

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Don't forget assize and presence of mind. Those count as buttons for dps too.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Don't forget assize and presence of mind. Those count as buttons for dps too.

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But those are still on cooldown from the last bout of DPSing! XD

I do like POM + Holy spam though; it's basically the "fuck your eyes" of DPSing.

Though now that I think about it, it's kinda sad that that's the only level of enjoyment I get out of the thing I'm doing most in dungeons.

I'm not sure if I can write out my thoughts clearly. I've been feeling like the healer role is not thought through. Not really considered how it's not fun to play. Eventhough all the healer jobs are playeable and viable, all of them lack some kind of cohesion and skill synergy.

I do think the new actions are a step in the right direction, but something like them needs to start appearing sooner. Give a casual white mage a reason to press presence of mind earlier than level 92. Remove cure 1 and cure 2 when they are really not needed any more, or just turn them into cure 4 and cure 5 or something.

Give casual healer a reson to press the actions they might normally not. E.g. Medica 2 + rapture saves way too many situations. If you think over healing is fine then please have something to reward it. Otherwise it's just bad healing and wasting your own resources.

Why do all healer job gauges feel neglected? Why not build on them? Have more lily actions or fairy/energy drain actions. Give astro back the rng? Make sage the DPS healer it was advertised as.

The DPS actions could be tied to healing like misery, or just take something from the lore of each. Where are the white mage's Amdaporian war damage action? Where is the Nymian strategist DPS. Sage was supposed to be a DPS but it boils really down to beaing a really boring scholar like healer. Astro has the stars so only the sky is the limit.

Healer jobs are stressful. And they should be! They have a little more responsibility than DPS and tanks. To say casual content should be easy because no one should be stressed is damaging to healer players. Every role should know how to play their job at least somewhat competently at every extensions end. It should be expected for the story dungeons of Stormblood be easier than Endwalker. I do wonder how many "bad casual" healers had difficulties on Barb and Zeromus because they were never used to heal like those battles required.

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Originally Posted by KitiaraIornsight

you realize there is a large OLDER player base to this game, as in there are people with disabilites as well that will be locked out of the game if the floor is moved up too much beyond what it is. People in their 50s and 60s who play but don't have the reaction times of young ones in this game? People with disabilites that want to enjoy the normal content.

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Unironically Square Enix has one of the worst support systems in place when it comes to those with disabilities, especially those with visual impairments, and the going GCD is very friendly on those with low motor skills, this is one of the few things they actually do well. We'll actually be an interplanetary species before they have a remotely functionality accessibility system.

A significant watering down of the normal mode content accomplishes something but only to a very small degree, and beyond a certain point you aren't actually assisting anyone, and arguably just doing more harm than good.

Besides, addressing many issues here could actually be done without significantly increasing the skill requirement. Like, do you think the game would get significantly more inaccessible if some trash mobs were to plop a doom on the tank which kills them if not esuna'd after 15 seconds? - Do you think it would have significant impact if they were to actually scale bloodwhetting (appropriately) for AoE situations?

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Originally Posted by Flappjax

The healers HAD more buttons for DPS in the past...healers complained they had too much to do...ya'll don't know what you want.

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You do realize, players dont have to use their full dps kit if they feel they can't do so, right?

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

You do realize, players dont have to use their full dps kit if they feel they can't do so, right?

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When healers had more buttons to press but didn't people started complaining, as they were basically just standing there doing nothing while waiting for something to heal.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was a part of the reasons why SE decided to start taking away more DPS skills from healers.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

When healers had more buttons to press but didn't people started complaining, as they were basically just standing there doing nothing while waiting for something to heal.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was a part of the reasons why SE decided to start taking away more DPS skills from healers.

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They didn't give healers reasons to heal, they just took away their dps.
I don't think you thought your thought through before commenting haha.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

older does not mean they are incapable. at this point SE is about one step away from catering to turnips in the field. I fall into the "older" category... and once I cannot game, I will take up a different game, because at my age, I dont want the equivalent of tapioca pudding every time I log in. I want something to KEEP my brain active... not a snooze fest.
do we start granting "accessibility" to people that are barely capable of turning on their computer or console? maybe we can have someone visit to do it for them.

once it gets to the point where every disability is catered to, then there is no more "normal" content. it is a race to see who drools the least while drinking the koolaid.

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Let me refer to this post of mine and also point out that I am in my 50s and agree whole heartedly with keeping the brain active through gaming.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

Strangely enough. I am a disabled player neurological disability. Like years ago in WoW when my hand spasmed and I ran off a ledge to my death as a result and someone yelled at me calling me a spaz my answer was "Well yes, yes I am." These days I play DPS. Most people can't tell I am disabled.

In the end it was my disability that made me stop playing healer. It's a strange thing with CP. The more pushed or rushed I feel the more spastic I get. I played healer in a couple of other games but when I was playing them the tank was willing to take the queue from the healer on how fast to go. Here they don't. I generally can keep up with a 2 pack pull. If I gotta run to keep up farther then that I risk spasms from the panic about not keeping up ( and thus not being able to make my hands hit the right buttons). DPS on the other hand no one gives a darn if it takes me an extra half second to get there. No one is gonna die over it.

The disability is also why I don't do harder content. the occasional ex trial is as far as I go. That is right on the bleeding edge of what I can reliably do without being a detriment to the party or in pain for days afterward.

I was going to post this to the lady talking about her disabled friend last night but had hit post cap. Honest there is a point where the disabled person has to know their own limits and make choices. I know on a bad hands night its time to go exploring or fishing or gathering. Something that is not going to ruin things for other people. Could I have continued leveling healer? yes if I had a group of kind people that didn't mind being just a little slower. As it is the OCD is going to make me finish leveling them via trusts eventually as having a class open but not leveled makes me nuts.

This I say as someone who taught special ed for 29 years in the schools. We can help disabled people figure things out but the best thing we can possibly do for them is teach them how to figure it out for themselves. We do no favors by running blockers between them and the world.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

They didn't give healers reasons to heal, they just took away their dps.
I don't think you thought your thought through before commenting haha.

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He was just giving his opinion, no reason to attack him.
I also agree with him. Back then it was not too rare to see healers getting attacked for no dpsing and SE probably just axed the entire tree instead of keeping the beavers away.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

They didn't give healers reasons to heal, they just took away their dps.
I don't think you thought your thought through before commenting haha.

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I never said anything about them giving more to heal, did I?
Maybe read before commenting.

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Originally Posted by KitiaraIornsight

Lunar Sub..... but remember the whole argument is that a Warrior as a tank means healers are irrelavent and yet, the majority of my runs as a healer and as a dps says otherwise. But nooooooooooooooooo healers aren't needed, isn't that the point of the thread? Because a God Tier uWu tank cleared with 3 dps and no heals. I mean... Warriors don't need healers right? Yet somehow mine couldn't live once the healer ate mechanics and died.

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fair, but the problem for many healers is that those situations are extremly rare, and not at all part of the average experience. People always say that most players are super casuals that don't know how to press their buttons, and sure idk, I don't have any data to prove or disprove it, but I currently can't belive it. The times that happens to me are so extremely rare, it just seems so unrealistic to me, for that to be the case.
Maybe I am just insanely lucky and have avoided them all during the 2.5 years of EW

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Originally Posted by Gullis

fair, but the problem for many healers is that those situations are extremly rare, and not at all part of the average experience. People always say that most players are super casuals that don't know how to press their buttons, and sure idk, I don't have any data to prove or disprove, but I currently can't belive it. The times that happens to me are so extremely rare, it just seems so unrealistic to me, for that to be the case.
Maybe I am just insanely lucky and have avoided them all during the 2.5 years of EW

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In low content particularly Prae during the moogle events (before the changes with having so much other stuff to do) I used to see a whole lot of fail on the healer front as I ran it over and over for moogle tomestones. Most of the time it was one of 4 issues. 1. new healer- needs some seasoning 2. Healer doesn't really know the dungeon and gets caught out in the last fight and the big group wide damage kills people because the healer didn't top them before. 3. Healer got tunnel vision in on doing DPS and forgot to check health bars. Finally and this is one that really ticks me off. Healer announces they will be DPSing and we should keep ourselves alive (for me this one is a vote kick + report, sorry it is refusing to do the job they signed up for)

You would be surprised how much garbage happens in low level content mostly because people have no clue what they are doing. That doesn't mean nerf everything into the ground. But it does happen more often than you think.

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Originally Posted by KitiaraIornsight

Lunar Sub..... but remember the whole argument is that a Warrior as a tank means healers are irrelavent and yet, the majority of my runs as a healer and as a dps says otherwise. But nooooooooooooooooo healers aren't needed, isn't that the point of the thread? Because a God Tier uWu tank cleared with 3 dps and no heals. I mean... Warriors don't need healers right? Yet somehow mine couldn't live once the healer ate mechanics and died.

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someone didn't read the first post in the thread :/

I would say i count as Casual as i dont touch Extremes or Savage stuff.
While i dont run into the problem that i dont feel needet as healer atleast not in the last few time.
I still see problems in the design and how monotone it is to do my Attack spell.
I also see all the design problems in the other classes, the removal of interlocking parts in class design, homogenisation and narrowing of design space.

I will also mention that distatisfaction with healing is also present on the Japanese Side of the Community.
One should mention that they desire a different solution for it, not more damage as they do think Healer should not damage.
But a more enticing healing and support experience.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

In low content particularly Prae during the moogle events (before the changes with having so much other stuff to do) I used to see a whole lot of fail on the healer front as I ran it over and over for moogle tomestones. Most of the time it was one of 4 issues. 1. new healer- needs some seasoning 2. Healer doesn't really know the dungeon and gets caught out in the last fight and the big group wide damage kills people because the healer didn't top them before. 3. Healer got tunnel vision in on doing DPS and forgot to check health bars. Finally and this is one that really ticks me off. Healer announces they will be DPSing and we should keep ourselves alive (for me this one is a vote kick + report, sorry it is refusing to do the job they signed up for)

You would be surprised how much garbage happens in low level content mostly because people have no clue what they are doing. That doesn't mean nerf everything into the ground. But it does happen more often than you think.

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I had one where the tank up and said, dont worry about the amount of damage I take, I dont repair my gear... I was like, please, I can do it, just let m..... and they were off and pulling. was a dfferent ride but managed, barely.. to keep them off the floor but they didnt really use mits either so was... different....

There's definitely bad healers floating around but almost none of the proposed changes matter to my co-healer (or even just healer now that I've backed off the role) spamming Prognosis.

Not E. Prognosis, Prognosis. That's a real thing I've seen people do.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I had one where the tank up and said, dont worry about the amount of damage I take, I dont repair my gear... I was like, please, I can do it, just let m..... and they were off and pulling. was a dfferent ride but managed, barely.. to keep them off the floor but they didnt really use mits either so was... different....

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Oh there are big fails in tanks and dps as well. I think what I was getting at was that there is much more fail happening in low stuff than many think there is. A GOOD healer can and often does save the show. A GOOD healer + a GOOD tank can make up for a whole lot of DPS shenanigans. When everyone is good its a snooze run.

Trust me I very much appreciate good healers. There have been times my hands went south unexpectedly because I forgot a mechanic was coming and they wouldn't work to let me get out of it. The healer yoinking me out of the bad was VERY appreciated and actually a nice wakeup call to me to get my head back in the game.

EDIT: I play mostly low stuff by choice. So I do see what happens there perhaps more than most. Mostly ARR+Heavensward stuff. I just hate Stormblood so much story wise I have only managed to get through it once. The character that did get through it I am taking my time going through Shadowbringers because I do not WANT to be at cap. I do not like the person I become at endgame. I tend to lose the fun of the game at endgame by pushing myself to hard into the min/max mindset even though I will never do the content that requires it.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

In low content particularly Prae during the moogle events (before the changes with having so much other stuff to do) I used to see a whole lot of fail on the healer front as I ran it over and over for moogle tomestones. Most of the time it was one of 4 issues. 1. new healer- needs some seasoning 2. Healer doesn't really know the dungeon and gets caught out in the last fight and the big group wide damage kills people because the healer didn't top them before. 3. Healer got tunnel vision in on doing DPS and forgot to check health bars. Finally and this is one that really ticks me off. Healer announces they will be DPSing and we should keep ourselves alive (for me this one is a vote kick + report, sorry it is refusing to do the job they signed up for)

You would be surprised how much garbage happens in low level content mostly because people have no clue what they are doing. That doesn't mean nerf everything into the ground. But it does happen more often than you think.

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Got a laugh from that DPS healer. He should give Scholar a shot, as Eos with Whispering Dawn should be enough to easily cover the msq dungeons, without getting in the way of his ruin spam x)

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Originally Posted by Gullis

Got a laugh from that DPS healer. He should give Scholar a shot, as Eos with Whispering Dawn should be enough to easily cover the msq dungeons, without getting in the way of his ruin spam x)

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and that is exactly why I have always even back in the days when I first started the game done best with healing on scholar. the little fairie friend made up for a whole lot of my own fails.

I suppose I should clarify a few things about my gaming and healing background.

I am without a doubt a WoW refugee. I played WoW from a few weeks Before BC released to halfway through BFA. I played ALL the healers though my favorites were holy priest and resto shammy. I was what would probably be called a bit too advanced for LFR but not really in a position for lack of groups and time (was still working then) to push into normal raiding or M+. So yes I healed Cata before it was nerfed. I remember that whole mess. Though my recollection differs a bit from what most talk about. I really never felt the problem was the healers. I always felt it was the dungeon that was the particular issue was very unforgiving and many players didn't step up and just expected the healer to carry the group. Well we couldn't and took the blowback for a whole lotta fail from everyone.

About the time of WoD I was starting to not be happy with WoW and dove into LOTRO HARD. Played both for several years. I played both green and red Minstrel (Mini). Minstrel can be both a DPS and a healer by choosing spec. Met the best tank I ever healed for in LOTRO she was 82 years old. So there is one for those who dont think older people should game.

I originally tried FFXIV sometime in ARR but it didn't click for me. I was still too much in that WoW headspace. Game just confused the tar out of me. I actually tried it again at the very tail end of Heavensward (though I claim to be a sotrmblood baby because it literally launched within a week or 2 of my return). Game clicked for me and I never looked back. I played summoner until it got hit with the big simplification bat then went BLM. Got tired of that and tried some healing which didn't work out for me and went back to the toon I rolled way back in ARR when I first tried the game. Have mostly been a bard since. One nice thing about ranged DPS I get a pretty good view of who is doing what when. I see the heros and the mistakes.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

someone didn't read the first post in the thread :/

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Because first post in this Topic is actually useless. Much better feedback was given further in topic, but no one can bother read 450 pages of poorly argumented responses. If You're tired of answering them everytime, ask TS to make FAQ and do not expect that anything stated there is Axiom.
Problem with healers is encounter design, not healer design. And even then it's not a problem when You get into higher end DF content with questionable skilled players, You need to scrub of the floor sometimes even faster than Swiftcast cooldown comes of. And by raising floor of leveling-story dungeons it just creates Quit moments for paying customers. Because every bump (Trying to buy the game, trying to pay for the game time), every annoyance, every obstacle caused by unexpected difficult spike can be someones quit moment. And this people pay same money for the sub and expansion and keep game afloat. Not sure about mogshop investments.

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

Because first post in this Topic is actually useless. Much better feedback was given further in topic, but no one can bother read 450 pages of poorly argumented responses. If You're tired of answering them everytime, ask TS to make FAQ and do not expect that anything stated there is Axiom.
Problem with healers is encounter design, not healer design. And even then it's not a problem when You get into higher end DF content with questionable skilled players, You need to scrub of the floor sometimes even faster than Swiftcast cooldown comes of. And by raising floor of leveling-story dungeons it just creates Quit moments for paying customers. Because every bump (Trying to buy the game, trying to pay for the game time), every annoyance, every obstacle caused by unexpected difficult spike can be someones quit moment. And this people pay same money for the sub and expansion and keep game afloat. Not sure about mogshop investments.

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I mean, the manifesto part gives a pretty succinct summary despite the cringe name.

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

Because first post in this Topic is actually useless. Much better feedback was given further in topic, but no one can bother read 450 pages of poorly argumented responses. If You're tired of answering them everytime, ask TS to make FAQ and do not expect that anything stated there is Axiom.
Problem with healers is encounter design, not healer design. And even then it's not a problem when You get into higher end DF content with questionable skilled players, You need to scrub of the floor sometimes even faster than Swiftcast cooldown comes of. And by raising floor of leveling-story dungeons it just creates Quit moments for paying customers. Because every bump (Trying to buy the game, trying to pay for the game time), every annoyance, every obstacle caused by unexpected difficult spike can be someones quit moment. And this people pay same money for the sub and expansion and keep game afloat. Not sure about mogshop investments.

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It's actually not an encounter design issue. It's an all of the above issue. Sometimes you're going to play with bad players in skilled encounters. Sometimes you're going to play with skilled players in easy encounters. No matter what, your job should be fun, just like my BLM is. That is where healer currently fails for some. Healing usage scales with the skill of the party but everything else always scales 1111.

Therefore the topic is not useless, rather it is your narrow thinking that is preventing you from true enlightenment.

This game, and it's hardcore fans, have a huge philosophy problem where encounter design is responsible for everything. Jobs are continuously being gutted in the name of the mystical encounter design, which ironically drives off into being "not accessible" territory the harder the high end content gets. Yet you want to invoke accessibility to account for your simple jobs lol.

And yes I think it's time someone really called that out. Please spare us the false concern with disabilities. If a campaign started to make Ultimates simple and accessible you'd be the first ones crying. All we are asking for is for is a little more focus on job design.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It's actually not an encounter design issue. It's an all of the above issue. Sometimes you're going to play with bad players in skilled encounters. Sometimes you're going to play with skilled players in easy encounters. No matter what, your job should be fun, just like my BLM is. That is where healer currently fails for some. Healing usage scales with the skill of the party but everything else always scales 1111.

Therefore the topic is not useless, rather it is your narrow thinking that is preventing you from true enlightenment.

This game, and it's hardcore fans, have a huge philosophy problem where encounter design is responsible for everything. Jobs are continuously being gutted in the name of the mystical encounter design, which ironically drives off into being "not accessible" territory the harder the high end content gets. Yet you want to invoke accessibility to account for your simple jobs lol.

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Yea, the same design philosophy that has givens us the current healers has also given us the excessive body check mechanics that I have yet to find someone like.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Yea, the same design philosophy that has givens us the current healers has also given us the excessive body check mechanics that I have yet to find someone like.

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This game, with this engine, can only become so difficult before you need an AI subroutine to keep up with it. If anything Ultimates prove that (as in their progressive difficulty, think about it after 10 more years). It's a road to nowhere imo. Creativity must be balanced between engaging jobs and encounters, so they can lean on one another when the other is lacking. I wasn't around but allegedly StB was this golden era.

I personally see jobs and encounter design as totally inverse currently. Job design keeps going down and encounter design keeps going up. So job design is a race to the bottom and encounter design is destined to hit a ceiling, probably quite soon.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It's actually not an encounter design issue. It's an all of the above issue. Sometimes you're going to play with bad players in skilled encounters. Sometimes you're going to play with skilled players in easy encounters. No matter what, your job should be fun, just like my BLM is. That is where healer currently fails for some. Healing usage scales with the skill of the party but everything else always scales 1111.

Therefore the topic is not useless, rather it is your narrow thinking that is preventing you from true enlightenment.

This game, and it's hardcore fans, have a huge philosophy problem where encounter design is responsible for everything. Jobs are continuously being gutted in the name of the mystical encounter design, which ironically drives off into being "not accessible" territory the harder the high end content gets. Yet you want to invoke accessibility to account for your simple jobs lol.

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Despite You usign "Ad hominem", which I find disgusting, I'll still reply and point out that Your fun with healers evolves in making easiest content harder to heal. Which actually fully aligns with what I said but You somehow twist the words in the way I can't understand what You try to explain. Give good examples of that? Kaiten and...

Also, please read tooltips. I said FIRST POST OF TOPIC IS USELESS. (I guess by Your standart it is where I should've joke about how light from You enlightenment blinded You so You missed letters?) It's bad, it relays info bad, it highlights everything bad, no one reads 450 pages of questionable posts and replyes to post You don't even read for answer.

Job design is useless without encounter design. Boss HP, potency of attacks and timings all balanced around Jobs being able to handle it. It goes hand in hand, which was perfectly shown by P8S having tiny bit more health than it should. If You scale lower threat encounters to be heal heavy, how much heavier must higher encounters must be. How many casuals healers must leave the game for this? They don't even read this forums. I also read about boss doing unavoidable "Gravity" (% of max HP True damage). Coold idea, but what do we do when we get Synced iLVL tank with min iLVL healer. There is lot nuances people not discuss enough before doing strike.

And of course better times, back then, in Stormblood, You had no problem finding healer in queues for DF, riiight?
And healers do not quit Mythic+ scene in WoW because of conditions You put them in.

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

Your fun with healers evolves in making easiest content harder to heal. Which actually fully aligns with what I said but You somehow twist the words in the way I can't understand what You try to explain. Give good examples of that? Kaiten and...

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I'm gonna go out a limb and say that adding a tiny bit of DPS expansion to healer is not going to make it harder to heal. And even if it did, encounter design could offset that for each respective level of difficulty (casual, midcore, hardcore). That's the job of developers-- to balance job design and encounter design, not crush one into the ground for the sake of the other. What other examples? BLM was just reworked into a flare star machine, Tanks are slowly being turned into healers, and sure, Kaiten is something people complain about. It could not be more obvious that devs are now trivializing all jobs and all roles one expansion at a time for the sake of encounter design, and it couldn't be more not worth it. Think about it this way-- next expansion encounters are getting harder so we're adding more mitigation to casters. At what point do roles become pointless?

With respect to healer difficulty, every healers requested adjustments are different (look at the feedback from the mains), so it's not a one size fits all. The devs could experiment by changing at least one healer per the feedback, and then we can see how it destroys the game. I bet it won't.

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

I said FIRST POST OF TOPIC IS USELESS.

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Allow me to amend-- the first post is not useless. Are you happy now?

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

Job design is useless without encounter design.

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And vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

And of course better times, back then, in Stormblood, You had no problem finding healer in queues for DF, riiight?
And healers do not quit Mythic+ scene in WoW because of conditions You put them in.

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I've never played WoW and as far as healers not being used, isn't that the thread is about? If they weren't part of the meta back then, nothing has changed. As far as StB and job design, I am going by what players more experienced than me have indicated. Frankly no period of the game is perfect, hence why I did not say "make it all StB", rather I am saying use it as a source of inspiration for moving forward in terms of job design and encounter design.

Regarding narrow views of the game and enlightenment, obviously it's hyperbole so I'm not sure why'd you find it disgusting. What I am saying is, the solutions to the game are not micro in nature, but macro. There will be no progress until the philosophical problem with the game is addressed, in my opinion. And whether he knows it or not, when Yoshi P comments "we're working on job identity in 8.0" , he is acknowledging that problem (a little too late, but better late than never).

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Originally Posted by KitiaraIornsight

you realize there is a large OLDER player base to this game, as in there are people with disabilites as well that will be locked out of the game if the floor is moved up too much beyond what it is. People in their 50s and 60s who play but don't have the reaction times of young ones in this game? People with disabilites that want to enjoy the normal content.

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Mao is one of those peoples. Mao is old and has Parkinson's Disease. Mao knows there will come a time when Mao will no longer be able to play game. This makes Mao sad. For now though, Mao oks because trusts and difficulty selection for MSQ lets Mao be able to still play. Mao nots want MSQ and dungeons tied to MSQ to be turned into DDR style twitch fests. On other claw, Mao nots want see higher levels of contents likes raids and Savage made easy. Is should be hard things to do for young healthy peoples whats has the skills to do thems. Mao nots mind nots being able do raids and Savage. Mao has other things like the gatherings that Mao likes. The gatherings restricted by MSQ though so if MSQ gets too hard, Mao no can even do the gatherings anymore. Mao sad.

I'm not sure why people even engage with this topic in this first place if they're really so wholly convinced it's not going to matter.

It comes across as the opposite if they feel the need to keep aggressively downplaying it.

Sorry, I'll shorten Quotes to meet character quota:

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I'm gonna go out a limb and ... how it destroys the game. I bet it won't.

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Homogenization is natural way to prevent some roles from being gatekept. If You want example of roles gatekeeping, please look at this: GW2 Raid Stats - I can't even underestiamate how much not healing as druid was "bad" back then, when "jobs" had "Unique" buffs instead of global "Boons" (Universal buffs every class can self and party provide). By divering Jobs unfavorably people will make PF listings with Jobs they consider viable, and in theory all AST will have 2-3 times harder time of doing PUG runs.
ATM, I believe White mages were unloved child of StB.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Allow me to amend-- the first post is not useless. Are you happy now?

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I will when it will be more informative. It is idea which will benefit Your casue anyway. Need to make detailed list more visible.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

And vice versa.

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And vice versa. Need to see DT Raids and EX before I can side with You.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I've never played WoW and as far as healers not being used ... he is acknowledging that problem (a little too late, but better late than never).

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Disgusting because it is Character/Personal attack. I prefer to challenge ideas, because in actual debate, where both parties can try to see own views from lens of opponent truth can be reach. Ad hominem is instant kill to such ways.
As WoW player I'll say that exactly problem I see, people calling for a solutions which will lead to WoW Mythic+ healers. It was not fun, it was stresful, it was always my fault despite some else can't "Check the cast". And what do You think about Heroic Dungeons during BFA? It was even easier that FFXIV. First Heroic dungeon I queued in BFA after a break - Tank and 1 DPS rocket boosted ahead of me (healer) and cleared the dungeon before I could find correct path to bosses. Thx God I wasn't kicked.
As far as I can see:
1 Button dps* - Partially valid, but it will be long back and forth why it's both yes and no. It also sounds lucrative when You have nothing to heal, but will turn into pain in the ass when high damage comes. (Mistweaver Monk from WoW Legion says hell. And hello)
More damage - Mostly not valid. Criterion and Savages already whoop ass to average Joe. Am I stupified when I see Ice Mage/Cure 1/Freestyler sam in Expert 90? Ofc I am, but what can I do but leave. If clueless healer will be a blocker for dungeon progress, they will be kicked, and they won't be able to do duty with players which will result in Duty Support usage or Quiting the game alltogether. Having enough sustain on tanks alliviate need to replace bad healer and I have no idea why DRK do not fit this logic. Ultimates should not be giggled with 0-1 healer, this is on design team to figure out.

Quick aside: funny how on Reddit/YT people keep saying that this is a nonissue and “it’s literally four people” meanwhile we’re at 456 pages in a week

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Quick aside: funny how on Reddit/YT people keep saying that this is a nonissue and “it’s literally four people” meanwhile we’re at 456 pages in a week

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This is not an issue anyone needs to be concerned about, this is just a big meme for everyone to laugh at.

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Originally Posted by 1313

This is not an issue anyone needs to be concerned about

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I am concerned about it. And I've cancelled my sub and pre-order because I have no desire to continue to give my money to a company that doesn't want to provide an engaging gameplay experience.

I am that concerned, that I logged into the official forums for the first time to show my support.

in the short term I fully expect any healer shortage to just lead more people into becoming healers, not enough to make queues not suck but they'll pop eventually, game won't collapse because I'm playing VPR/PIC/RDM.

it's the long term that's less clear, if they find from playing healers regularly that 1-1-1 gaming actually does just suck we end up assimilating them.

All this madness here made me think I should Level first my White Mage and then all other Healers. :P

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

All this madness here made me think I should Level first my White Mage and then all other Healers. :P

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That sounds like a great idea, have fun :)

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

ATM, I believe White mages were unloved child of StB.

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How convenient. I am not moved by "x job isn't preferred for y content" argument, especially for past expansions. That was then, this is now. These are the changes being asked for now. Trying it on one healer could result in some amount of it not being used for prog, but that happens in the game right now depending on the timing of the release. A meta will different for progs vs reclear in a majority of cases. Picto will probably lose out to SMN for prog groups and perhaps even to BLM depending on playability/DPS. That doesn't mean no one is going to clear high end content with Picto ever. Your GW2 reference I'm not familiar with-- sometimes jobs/classes are straight up broken depending on the game and context, and that's different from "I don't like this play style for high end content".

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

And vice versa. Need to see DT Raids and EX before I can side with You.

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There are no sides. You are just restating what I said. My entire was post was about balancing job complexity with encounter complexity, and you restated it as though you were educating me. You are not. Let that be understood.

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Originally Posted by Stormhold

Disgusting because it is Character/Personal attack. I prefer to challenge ideas, because in actual debate, where both parties can try to see own views from lens of opponent truth can be reach. Ad hominem is instant kill to such ways.

As WoW player I'll say that exactly problem I see, people calling for a solutions which will lead to WoW Mythic+ healers. It was not fun, it was stresful, it was always my fault despite some else can't "Check the cast". And what do You think about Heroic Dungeons during BFA? It was even easier that FFXIV. First Heroic dungeon I queued in BFA after a break - Tank and 1 DPS rocket boosted ahead of me (healer) and cleared the dungeon before I could find correct path to bosses. Thx God I wasn't kicked.
As far as I can see:
1 Button dps* - Partially valid, but it will be long back and forth why it's both yes and no. It also sounds lucrative when You have nothing to heal, but will turn into pain in the ass when high damage comes. (Mistweaver Monk from WoW Legion says hell. And hello)

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Again, WoW is a different game and I'm not familiar with what was done to their healers or what the scale of it was. Is it the same as expanding the DPS kit of one singular healer in XIV? And again I would say if that healer is used less for progs, is that truly the end of the world? Once again if you review the logs early in a raid cycle you're already going to see some jobs used SIGNIFICANTLY more than others. So I am unmoved by the argument.

Also for someone not a fan of gatekeeping, you are literally gatekeeping. You're also extremely sensitive for someone who came into the topic guns blazing about useless the first post is-- I called your viewpoint narrow and you're taking it as some kind of personal attack. That's your agenda, I guess. If I wanted to call you stupid I would have done that directly. I am not saying you are stupid. I am saying your post came across as a narrow interpretation of the problem.

If homogenization is so good for the game, we have work to do. Why not put raise on all casters and make all their DPS the same for example. I can sit here all day and tell you ways the jobs can be even more homogenized. The truth is, people are going to argue for how much homogeny is ok based on their own comfort levels and what benefits them. They're going to argue what keeps the game in a state they're personally comfortable with.

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Originally Posted by 1313

This is not an issue anyone needs to be concerned about, this is just a big meme for everyone to laugh at.

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There appears to be some big feelings over people making decisions for themselves based on their experiences in a video game. We all have big feelings sometimes and that’s okay. But we can’t control the actions and decisions of other people. All we can do is try to be decent people.

Okay, good talk. Now go get you some froyo or a cookie.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

in the short term I fully expect any healer shortage to just lead more people into becoming healers, not enough to make queues not suck but they'll pop eventually, game won't collapse because I'm playing VPR/PIC/RDM.

it's the long term that's less clear, if they find from playing healers regularly that 1-1-1 gaming actually does just suck we end up assimilating them.

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Exactly other people getting fed up with the length of queues and queuing for healers when they normally don’t only helps us

If they end up liking healers well the healer population stabilises and we get a stable healer population while we move to DPS, if they end up hating it like we do it just magnifies how many people don’t like healers

“Get over yourselves other people will play healer” is literally exactly what we want

Even though I'm not really agreeing with this strike or do I expect much outcome before 8.0 where they say they're going to re-examine job identity.

I am impressed at how big of a conversation this has created. Some of the arguments make really well good points. Hopefully they can interpret the feedback in way we can make good middle ground that works for everyone. I don't believe in making the roles very complex purely just for hardcore content, it needs to work for casual content as much as, that bit is crucial for me at least.