Here we go again

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

Yoshi actively plays the game and, himself, verbatim, has stated "I fall asleep sometimes while I do dungeons."

Some players need to think about that.

But I'll sell the solution ahead of time: That's not good. The new dungeon requiring you to stimulate your brain just the slightest bit is healthy for the long term and should remain the standard going forward.

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Hard agree

Am I truly so disconnected because I don’t think the dungeons are that hard … like I feel gaslighted

Maybe these people just don’t run ANY content enough? Like none of this is new mechanics. There’s a level 70 dungeon ( the burn drone 2nd boss) which has the same blue spikes coming from the side you dodge

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Originally Posted by missTori

Am I truly so disconnected because I don’t think the dungeons are that hard …
Maybe these people just don’t run ANY content enough? Like none of this is new mechanics. There’s a level 70 dungeon ( forgot which one ) which has the same blue spikes coming from the side you dodge

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The first boss in the new dungeon is the hardest. Because he heckles with the mechanics. But he has very little HP and they can't upfront one-shot you. You can only die if you got spanked by 2 or 3 hits at once. The second one is just a vibe check. The third one is almost exactly the same as Mt. Gulgs second boss but replace the water donut with lightning orbital line nukes.

It's really not hard at all. But it does require you to activate your brain briefly. And I appreciate this new dungeon because of this. I'm a narcoleptic so Yoshi's concern is exasperated even more keenly in my case.

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Originally Posted by Ankhira

You’re being incredibly judgmental toward someone whose situation you don’t fully understand. Just because astigmatism doesn’t stop you from driving doesn’t mean it’s the same for everyone. People have different experiences, limitations, and reasons for the choices they make and it’s not okay to speak so definitively about someone else’s life from the outside.

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It turns out there is a subset of posters on these boards who are convinced they have perfect information about the abilities and limitations of people they have never met. They also wish to dictate how others should feel about their experiences.

Nauseating, but not unexpected from this community.

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Originally Posted by Ser_Arven

People are saying that the devs need to draw a line and they have. It doesn't matter what challenges you have my wife has autism, ADHD and Dyslexia but raids Ultimate.

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Yes, we've met her.

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

I have ADHD, Autism and Dyslexia and raid ultimate.

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You two make an extremely effective tag team. What neither of you have explained, however, is why ultimate raiders feel so strongly about a requested casual option that will impact neither of you.

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Originally Posted by missTori

Am I truly so disconnected because I don’t think the dungeons are that hard … like I feel gaslighted

Maybe these people just don’t run ANY content enough? Like none of this is new mechanics. There’s a level 70 dungeon ( the burn drone 2nd boss) which has the same blue spikes coming from the side you dodge

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I am also baffled by this. The dungeons are tougher by the smallest margin imaginable. Did people say this kind of thing about Hero's Gauntlet?

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Originally Posted by JadeCurtiss

I am also baffled by this. The dungeons are tougher by the smallest margin imaginable. Did people say this kind of thing about Hero's Gauntlet?

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Not particularly, no, but the mass disillusionment hadn't happened yet because Shadowbringers was when combat was overhauled to be simpler from Stormblood and Omega beating everybody senseless. The cracks started forming in Endwalker but heaven forfend someone thinking "oh hey, combats a little bit boring...." during then. Then the dam exploded mid-way into Dawntrail where we are at right now.

I'm 58. Have eye issues: so all of the bright lights they've added to everything gives me a migraine after a few minutes. San d'oria was murderous for me to get through.

Having to move constantly, not giving my hands a break means that after each DT (and the latter EW) dungeons, trials, and raids have me soaking my hands in an ice bath as I am literally sobbing from the pain.

I don't mind doing the trusts to get through the MSQ, but this last dungeon, I just kept dying over and over and over on that second fight. I finally just queued with real peeps and told them my situation. They were awesome and we got through it.

However, with being limited to running trusts due to my various issues, I have no way to farm tomes to get the latest gear. I haven't been able to do endgame stuff since the end of Stormblood. So tome gear is it…but not anymore because I can't justify the pain levels and migraines to do a single dungeon, trial, or alliance raid.

It's like they cater so much to hardcore players, they've forgotten about those of us who've been playing since the original FF game came out. There are peeps I've played with since 2002 in XI that I hang out with in XIV. But they're younger and can still do endgame etc. But I don't see me playing after my yearly sub runs out.

I pushed myself through the horror of the DT story. But now, it's just no longer worth it for me. Bad writing, can't do any of the casual content. Heck, after who knows how many years, I was finally able to get a medium house (upgraded from a small). I've been playing New World for six or seven months and have three houses. I mean, come on...Chat bubbles, casting bars for the bosses (which there was already an alternative for)…but:
I can't see in a dungeon because of the blinding lights,
I can't get a bigger house,
I can't let my alts share the house,
I can't do daily roulettes to farm tomestones for gear because I might end up in a dungeon, raid, or trial that is literally painful for me to run, and if I do run it and die, well then, there's the harassment and the "git gud" comments,
I can't even craft because the items come from FATES only, not overworld monsters, and FATES hurt to do for hours on end to get a few items to craft.

I can't see myself resubbing when my year is up. This is just unplayable for me at this point.

In the nicest way possible if keyboard requirements of doing normal content is leaving you soaking your hands in an ice bath sobbing in pain then I honestly think that this game is just untenable at this point

Like I don’t know what to say at this point other than if you are at that point then you are barely even playing the game

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Originally Posted by missTori

Am I truly so disconnected because I don’t think the dungeons are that hard … like I feel gaslighted

Maybe these people just don’t run ANY content enough? Like none of this is new mechanics. There’s a level 70 dungeon ( the burn drone 2nd boss) which has the same blue spikes coming from the side you dodge

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You seem genuinely interested, so I'll gladly offer some speculations from my own experience.

When 7.3 dropped, the peak player count increased by a factor of 3. What were those 2/3rds of the players doing since 7.2? Possibly playing other games. They almost certainly weren't running FFXIV dungeons. Why would they?

I don't recall how many required dungeons there are in 7.0-7.2, but multiply that by two (I ran an alt through to the end of 7.2) and that is close to the number of dungeons I have run in the period from June 28 2024 to today. I spent 99% of my time in PvP and a bunch of other activities.

You mention a level 70 dungeon. I have no recollection of that dungeon, no idea what a burn drone is, and never recall seeing blue spikes. I imagine that is true of many players.

So I think you're onto something. A significant fraction of the player base only runs dungeons when they are compelled to do so. This is probably because they don't much enjoy running dungeons, and spend their time engaged with all the other activities FF14 offers. The mostly likely reason someone doesn't like something in a game is because they are bad at it to begin with.

Thus when confronted with the latest one, which they are required to clear so they can find out what happens in the story, they are primed to be pissed off, completely out of practice, and have no long-term knowledge of mechanics because they simply haven't run many dungeons over the last few years. And in some cases it's doubtless true that if such players just practiced more and ran lots of dungeons, they'd find the latest one easier. But many players do not, because to them dungeons are an irritant that only serve to gate progress.

The consensus in this thread appears to be that such players are not playing the game properly and should just leave. I'm personally fine with that for myself, but it does have consequences.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

The first boss in the new dungeon is the hardest. Because he heckles with the mechanics. But he has very little HP and they can't upfront one-shot you. You can only die if you got spanked by 2 or 3 hits at once. The second one is just a vibe check. The third one is almost exactly the same as Mt. Gulgs second boss but replace the water donut with lightning orbital line nukes.

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I found the first boss trivial and the second boss impossible. People have different skills.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I found the first boss trivial and the second boss impossible. People have different skills.

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Do those skills include looking down at the floor?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This simply illustrates how out of touch you are.

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You can call me out of touch if you want but I don't really think I am. The fight design in this game isn't based around having fast reflexes or adapting to unforeseeable circumstance on the fly, it's based around memorizing a timeline with a handful of variations. It's about memorizing the steps to a dance and then executing that dance. The dance rarely changes, and when it does it only changes to a small handful of other possibilities. You look at a mechanic like CT from FRU and at first you think "oh my god there's so much going on that I have to react to how does anyone do this?" But then you take the time to study and learn the dance, and you realize all you do is look at your two debuffs and do one of 8 or so things. So you study what those 8 things are and when and why you do them, you get your hands on the mechanic a few times to practice the timing, and boom, you've mastered CT. It's really, honestly not any harder than that. Every mechanic in this game is just memorizing a handful of things to do in a specific order, and doing them. Every fight is made up of a handful of these handfuls. Barring disability, literally anyone can do that if they put the time and effort in. Again, if you don't want to put that time and effort in, that's entirely fair, but that's what the game is, and that doesn't mean you're incapable of playing it.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

When 7.3 dropped, the peak player count increased by a factor of 3. What were those 2/3rds of the players doing since 7.2? Possibly playing other games. They almost certainly weren't running FFXIV dungeons. Why would they?

I don't recall how many required dungeons there are in 7.0-7.2, but multiply that by two (I ran an alt through to the end of 7.2) and that is close to the number of dungeons I have run in the period from June 28 2024 to today. I spent 99% of my time in PvP and a bunch of other activities.

You mention a level 70 dungeon. I have no recollection of that dungeon, no idea what a burn drone is, and never recall seeing blue spikes. I imagine that is true of many players.

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So do you also get mad when other games drop dlc a year after you finished them, and you have to take a bit to re-learn how to play? Do you tell the developers they need to make a game easier because life got in the way and you fell off of if, but wanted to pick back up where you left off 6 months later and you don't remember what you were doing or how to play? The idea that all msq content has to be instantly and effortlessly winnable for people haven't engaged in pve in a patch is kind of unfeasible because it means that every dungeon has to be a tutorial dungeon and ruins the experience for anyone who actually plays the game regularly.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I literally said that "twitchy reflexes" is the "wrong kind of difficulty in this game."

What does it matter whether the devs think that 1s vs 2s vs 3s vs 983547s is where to draw the line? The underlying concept is flat wrong.

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I would argue that the game doesn't require twitchy reflexes in any content besides maybe Air Force One, and also asks what makes you the arbiter of what is the right or wrong kind of difficulty in this game. Furthermore, it matters where the devs thing to draw the line because they're the ones making the game. I thought that much would be obvious.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

Do those skills include looking down at the floor?

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Do you want to be rude, or do you want to have a sensible discussion?

I'll take the low-probability option and explain to you exactly my experience of the second boss.

I prefer to play MCH, but I tend to survive better on WAR hence I played WAR. For those of you who dislike Wuk Lamat, you'll be pleased to know she died twice because I forgot to put on tank stance. Once we got that sorted out...

Second boss. I figure I can only hit the one I'm tethered to. Lucky guess. Get yeeted in. Okay. I'm dueling this thing.

I guess first are some irrelevant auto-attacks, then objects start appearing. Okay the barrette things produce line AoEs, they come in pairs so there's the jumping into where the first one went off business, then there are spherical things that drop, yip circle AoEs with a tiny avoid area, okay, and some wiggly things that move I need to avoid. Fine.

Died to all this as I figured out what the AoEs were, but that was expected, No worries, go again.

Second time, things are not going great. I've now noticed there's a donut AoE I hadn't see before. Not too sure why SE thinks 4 overlapping AoEs are necessary in a MSQ dungeon but I keep plugging away.

Get one-shot by something. Puzzled.

Third time. Exact same result.

Tab out, watch a guide. Oh there's a spell that needs to be interrupted. Okay. Write the name of the cast on my notepad.

Fourth time. Check I have an interrupt on my hotbar. Yip. Go again. Mistime the interrupt, die. No problem. We're making progress.

Fifth time. Nail the interrupt, immediately thereafter die to the tankbuster. Right, so hold more mit for the tankbuster.

Sixth time. Seem to survive the tankbuster but die shortly thereafter.

By about the ninth time I realize the problem is I'm picking up vuln stacks like a drunk pulling quarters from the fountains outside Caesars Palace. So I put all my focus on doing a better job of avoiding the AoEs. Rewatch the guide at 0.25x. Try to plot a path that minimizes getting clipped.

And I can't do it. I kept going until somewhere between 15 and 20 wipes, and by that point I'd had enough.

So yeah, I was looking at the floor.

But like……..how?

The tankbuster goes off after like 3 mechanics. Let’s say you get hit by one of the barrettes trying to avoid it and make your life easier by intentionally standing in one of the circles from the dropped balls. At worst you’ll go into the TB with 3 vuln. You can facetank the tankbusters with 3 vuln stacks ignoring mitigation

Like with the position of mechanics you actively have to be chasing vuln stacks to take enough damage from the TB to be one shot

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Originally Posted by FlorineC

...snip... something about FRU (what's that? thought "CT" was crystal tower?)... usual claim anyone can do anything despite it being clearly false... blah blah.. Oh, actual question:

So do you also get mad when other games drop dlc a year after you finished them, and you have to take a bit to re-learn how to play? Do you tell the developers they need to make a game easier because life got in the way and you fell off of if, but wanted to pick back up where you left off 6 months later and you don't remember what you were doing or how to play

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No and no. If I'm rusty or haven't played a game in a while, I figure it is my responsibility to get up to speed with the content I enjoy. The problem I have had with instanced PvE in 14 is that, not only is it side content to what I actually enjoy doing, some of it is required content, and from my perspective it has changed massively.

It has got faster, with more visual clutter, more rushing to the safe spot. Into Stormblood, MSQ dungeons weren't the dance you describe. I freely admit I am bad at such content. It has reached the point that it is completely unenjoyable, hence I've quit.

Completely my decision.

However, as discussed at length in this thread, there are solutions to this issue that take nothing away from people who like a challenge, that would enable people like me to progress the MSQ, thus allowing them to keep doing the things they enjoy like crafting, gathering and PvP.

Nobody has told me why this would be the end of the world. All we get is:

Player A: How can people struggle with this? It's sooooo easy.

Player B: It's not easy for me, but it would be if...

Player A: Shut up! Play Animal Crossing!!!

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

But like……..how?

The tankbuster goes off after like 3 mechanics. Let’s say you get hit by one of the barrettes trying to avoid it and make your life easier by intentionally standing in one of the circles from the dropped balls. At worst you’ll go into the TB with 3 vuln. You can facetank the tankbusters with 3 vuln stacks ignoring mitigation

Like with the position of mechanics you actively have to be chasing vuln stacks to take enough damage from the TB to be one shot

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I dunno, honey. I can't tell my FRU from my UWU. But I promise you I'm trying to avoid getting vuln stacks rather than collecting them.

Oh to save anyone asking, ilvl 740 gear with materia and tank food.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Do you want to be rude, or do you want to have a sensible discussion?

I'll take the low-probability option and explain to you exactly my experience of the second boss.

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Man I wish I was at that level to figure out a boss, that sounds like fun. I breezed my way through it, just avoided all the AoEs and was gucci.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Man I wish I was at that level to figure out a boss, that sounds like fun. I breezed my way through it, just avoided all the AoEs and was gucci.

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I get that if you enjoy dungeons it must be a downer when they present zero challenge. It's why when I play chess against Stockfish I choose a setting where I figure to lose 90% of the time. I like testing myself.

Wouldn't it be more fun for you if dungeons came with difficulty options?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I get that if you enjoy dungeons it must be a downer when they present zero challenge. It's why when I play chess against Stockfish I choose a setting where I figure to lose 90% of the time. I like testing myself.

Wouldn't it be more fun for you if dungeons came with difficulty options?

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I would like a harder mode yeah. But I think the problem with separating it into optional content and making the story mode way too easy it kind of takes me out of my immersion. Like if you spend 50 hours of story time hyping up a looming threat like Thordan and when you get to finally fight him none of his attacks really hurt you and you take him out real fast, it takes me out of my immersion.

The other thing is that while it's nice to have NPCs to do the story mode I think this is an area where if you were with people they would have helped you clear, dungeons are the only time where hardcore and casual players collide.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I would like a harder mode yeah. But I think the problem with separating it into optional content and making the story mode way too easy it kind of takes me out of my immersion. Like if you spend 50 hours of story time hyping up a looming threat like Thordan and when you get to finally fight him none of his attacks really hurt you and you take him out real fast, it takes me out of my immersion.

The other thing is that while it's nice to have NPCs to do the story mode I think this is an area where if you were with people they would have helped you clear, dungeons are the only time where hardcore and casual players collide.

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You'll appreciate based on the exchanges in this thread, that's precisely why some of us play with NPCs.

But I totally get the bit about immersion which is why I think MSQ should have optional difficulty settings. You miss out on really feeling like you battled The Big Bad. I come out when I run w/ players after spending most of my time flat on my face, and the Scions tell me how amazing I am.

I think people lost track of the thread, so I'm gonna try and loop it back a bit, and then give my own feedback at the same time.

I see absolutely zero reason not to let duty support/trust have NPC resses and difficulties below normal mode. You could even just input a skip dungeon button too, does it really matter for MSQ? People play FF14 for whatever reasons they want to, let people play the way they want to play and do combat in whatever solo way they want.

But... there is an expected baseline for multiplayer to accommodate the largest amount of players, and that's the line the devs have currently chosen to draw, for better or worse. Tying raid progression and currency to expert dungeons is where a lot of this animosity comes in, and where a lot of pushback to making the game "braindead" mostly stems from. You feel you have to cap this currency because it's the only way to get this loot, so you have to do these dungeons, so it better be interesting, or it better be fast.

So to me, the answer is really simple. Let people do duty finder and trusts at any difficulty they want. Let people skip it solo if they really just want the story, or are here for other reasons. But gate expert queues behind completing duty finder/trust on normal with either NPC resses disabled or limited. If people are worried about botting and loot, either disable the loot, or better yet, make the loot "replicas" like we have for relics. This way even the single players can use the glams if they like them.

There's really no reason to not let duty support and trust have difficulty scaling. If you gate random queuing behind an expected difficulty, then you can maintain and upkeep a set difficulty for the larger multiplayer base as well. You get to make everyone happy, or at least, less likely to be upset with or by others.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

However, as discussed at length in this thread, there are solutions to this issue that take nothing away from people who like a challenge, that would enable people like me to progress the MSQ, thus allowing them to keep doing the things they enjoy like crafting, gathering and PvP.

Nobody has told me why this would be the end of the world. All we get is:

Player A: How can people struggle with this? It's sooooo easy.

Player B: It's not easy for me, but it would be if...

Player A: Shut up! Play Animal Crossing!!!



I dunno, honey. I can't tell my FRU from my UWU. But I promise you I'm trying to avoid getting vuln stacks rather than collecting them.

Oh to save anyone asking, ilvl 740 gear with materia and tank food.

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I figure you are just ragebaiting at this point, but in the remote case that you are not, and are simply unable to read or ignoring everything that has been said that does not agree with you, trusts are already the solo mode. The only time they let go of your hand to make a dungeon remotely interesting the game suddenly becomes unplayable to you.

You don’t seem to recall how or when you got to this level, because clearly you don’t play often. (You post more than me and I got over 17,000 hrs logged on steam, not proud at all). You don’t remember dungeons, bosses, mechanics….

As for how it affects us, let me remind you that not everything is Black and White. There is not just casuals and raiders, but there are in betweens. And for years said casuals have requested “accesibility” (yes, in quotes, because accesibility means making the game accessible to as many players with special needs such as, but certainly not limited to, people with color blindness, light sensitivy, impaired vision or mobility, etc, as possible, while your “accesibility” means I just wanna be done with this now pls because I can’t be bother to do it so why can’t I skip now so I can go play poker and EVE online), and what has happened is jobs got overly simplified so casuals could play more, now not even raiders bother with some of said jobs, and those who liked the original jobs are now left deciding which weapon suits my healer glam best because mechanically there is not much difference. Were jobs perfect before? No. Where thy fun? For those of us who played and took the time to master them, yes.

The devs have a history of applying a single patch to all, and honestly you’re not willing to put even a little of bit of effort if you can react to 6 simultaneous poker games but cannot zoom in to pay attention to a single, slowly moving aoe. You have yet failed to explain how it is a “game difficulty” problem.

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

I figure you are just ragebaiting at this point, but in the remote case that you are not, and are simply unable to read or ignoring everything that has been said that does not agree with you, trusts are already the solo mode. The only time they let go of your hand to make a dungeon remotely interesting the game suddenly becomes unplayable to you.

You don’t seem to recall how or when you got to this level, because clearly you don’t play often. (You post more than me and I got over 17,000 hrs logged on steam, not proud at all). You don’t remember dungeons, bosses, mechanics….

As for how it affects us, let me remind you that not everything is Black and White. There is not just casuals and raiders, but there are in betweens. And for years said casuals have requested “accesibility” (yes, in quotes, because accesibility means making the game accessible to as many players with special needs such as, but certainly not limited to, people with color blindness, light sensitivy, impaired vision or mobility, etc, as possible, while your “accesibility” means I just wanna be done with this now pls because I can’t be bother to do it so why can’t I skip now so I can go play poker and EVE online), and what has happened is jobs got overly simplified so casuals could play more, now not even raiders bother with some of said jobs, and those who liked the original jobs are now left deciding which weapon suits my healer glam best because mechanically there is not much difference. Were jobs perfect before? No. Where thy fun? For those of us who played and took the time to master them, yes.

The devs have a history of applying a single patch to all, and honestly you’re not willing to put even a little of bit of effort if you can react to 6 simultaneous poker games but cannot zoom in to pay attention to a single, slowly moving aoe. You have yet failed to explain how it is a “game difficulty” problem.

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Where's the rage baiting? I gave a detailed description of how I experienced the recent content, in which I know full well I must appear to be a total idiot.

You don't think that description indicates effort? How many wipes would be appropriate? 100? 1000?

I and others have provided a simple solution. It is definitionally not something the devs could apply a "a single patch to all" because it would be optional.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I and others have provided a simple solution. It is definitionally not something the devs could apply a "a single patch to all" because it would be optional.

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And what, precisely, is the cost of this optional feature? It certainly won't be nothing, it is never nothing.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

And what, precisely, is the cost of this optional feature? It certainly won't be nothing, it is never nothing.

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I'd suggest the cost of not having such a feature in terms of lost subs is likely to be far higher than the cost of incorporating it.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

I'm not talking financial costs. I'm talking costs to the game itself. Every feature they have ever added has come at the cost of something else being trimmed down or tossed aside.

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I'm not responsible for SE incompetence.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'd suggest the cost of not having such a feature in terms of lost subs is likely to be far higher than the cost of incorporating it.

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I'm not talking financial costs. I'm talking costs to the game itself. Every feature they have ever added has come at the cost of something else being trimmed down or tossed aside.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'm not responsible for SE incompetence.

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You are, however, encouraging it.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Do you want to be rude, or do you want to have a sensible discussion?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

...snip... something about FRU (what's that? thought "CT" was crystal tower?)... usual claim anyone can do anything despite it being clearly false... blah blah.. Oh, actual question:

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Pot, meet Kettle.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

No and no. If I'm rusty or haven't played a game in a while, I figure it is my responsibility to get up to speed with the content I enjoy. The problem I have had with instanced PvE in 14 is that, not only is it side content to what I actually enjoy doing, some of it is required content, and from my perspective it has changed massively.

...

Into Stormblood, MSQ dungeons weren't the dance you describe.

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So why is it not your responsible to get up to speed on instanced PvE content after months off in this case? And if instanced PvE content isn't what you enjoy doing... why are you doing it? There's nothing locked behind this dungeon except for a trial that I'm gonna guess you also won't like. The cutscenes are all on youtube if you want to watch the story

As for Storm Blood, the MSQ very much had dungeon bosses similar to this where you did the same kind of dance. Bardam's Mettle is I think the most obvious example since they're both non-standard fights with a focus on individual responsibility. The first phase has you dodging four alternating sets of checkerboard aoes, not dissimilar to the alternating line aoes from the blades in the current dungeon, while avoiding a gaze mechanic. The second phase has you taking towers, placing/dodging donut aoes, and placing/dodging chasing aoes, before gathering behind the boss to dodge heavy strike and finally dodging a set of aoes dropping meteors. The third phase then has you dodging a donut aoe while two heavy strikes go off on opposite ends of the arena while identifying which meteor doesn't get destroyed so that you can use it to line of site another meteor dropping from the center. These are all dances from just one fight in just one dungeon. You may find that particular dance easier or harder than the second boss of this current dungeon, that's highly subjective I'd say, but the design was there. It's always been there.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

However, as discussed at length in this thread, there are solutions to this issue that take nothing away from people who like a challenge, that would enable people like me to progress the MSQ, thus allowing them to keep doing the things they enjoy like crafting, gathering and PvP.

Nobody has told me why this would be the end of the world.

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I can't speak for other people, but personally I'm not against an added optional difficulty mode as OP suggested or something similar like giving the player an amount of revives in duty support dungeons (sorry I haven't skimmed all the pages to see every single idea put forward), but I have mentioned several times that, while not the end of the world, any changes like that would take some amount of development time and resources that the team may not have or may not want to allocate towards that. You're asking for something for you and a subset of players that would take away development resource from other aspects of the game. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, everyone asking for any change is basically doing that, but I think it is important to realize that as simple as the devs simply wishing it and it appearing in the game.

And that's not even getting into the fact that video games, even live service games run by huge companies like this one, are creative and artistic works that represent the vision of their creators. Of course I can't say for certain what the creators' vision for a baseline MSQ difficulty in this game is, or even if they feel they have a vision one way or the other; But hypothetically at least I don't think there's anything wrong with a creator or creative team deciding that not having an easier difficulty than what we have now is an important part of their vision, and the experience that is their game.

this is an mmo, just do it with others and you will be fine. When someone dies 10 times to this boss, then I just keep ressing him and the other members of the group help with killing the add. Theres literally 0 issue

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Get one-shot by something. Puzzled.

Third time. Exact same result.

Tab out, watch a guide. Oh there's a spell that needs to be interrupted. Okay. Write the name of the cast on my notepad.

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Sorry for triple posting, but I did want to mention as a word of advice that if a cast is interruptible, the bar will flashing/pulsating, so you can look out for that if you decide to come back in the future.

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Originally Posted by FlorineC

I can't speak for other people, but personally I'm not against an added optional difficulty mode as OP suggested or something similar like giving the player an amount of revives in duty support dungeons (sorry I haven't skimmed all the pages to see every single idea put forward), but I have mentioned several times that, while not the end of the world, any changes like that would take some amount of development time and resources that the team may not have or may not want to allocate towards that. You're asking for something for you and a subset of players that would take away development resource from other aspects of the game. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, everyone asking for any change is basically doing that, but I think it is important to realize that as simple as the devs simply wishing it and it appearing in the game.

And that's not even getting into the fact that video games, even live service games run by huge companies like this one, are creative and artistic works that represent the vision of their creators. Of course I can't say for certain what the creators' vision for a baseline MSQ difficulty in this game is, or even if they feel they have a vision one way or the other; But hypothetically at least I don't think there's anything wrong with a creator or creative team deciding that not having an easier difficulty than what we have now is an important part of their vision, and the experience that is their game.

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Honestly at this point I'm just pushing back against posters who are determined to believe that struggling players are simply lazy. My friends who have quit were not. I'm sure this applies to many others who, rather than coming here, have shrugged and silently uninstalled the game.

I'm not demanding anything. The change I an others have suggested is just that. A suggestion. I believe it would lead to better retention and less frustration, potentially for players across the entire skill spectrum. It's certainly possible SE would find a way to eff it up (have you seen the latest PvP changes?).

But it's something for the remaining players to figure out. I'm free of it.

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Originally Posted by FlorineC

Sorry for triple posting, but I did want to mention as a word of advice that if a cast is interruptible, the bar will flashing/pulsating, so you can look out for that if you decide to come back in the future.

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Appreciate the help, was aware, but I needn't have been. Believe it or not I spent quite a lot of time watching videos by folks like Wesk and Cae and others to better understand mechanics, rotations, and all the rest of it. Guess I'm unusually bad at this particular game.

Oh and FWIW, Bardam's Mettle is by far my least favorite dungeon from that xpac.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Honestly at this point I'm just pushing back against posters who are determined to believe that struggling players are simply lazy. My friends who have quit were not. I'm sure this applies to many others who, rather than coming here, have shrugged and silently uninstalled the game.

I'm not demanding anything. The change I an others have suggested is just that. A suggestion. I believe it would lead to better retention and less frustration, potentially for players across the entire skill spectrum. It's certainly possible SE would find a way to eff it up (have you seen the latest PvP changes?).

But it's something for the remaining players to figure out. I'm free of it.

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Totally fair, games are a leisure activity and I think it's totally reasonable to tap out when you stop having fun, for whatever reason. While I personally enjoy being challenged in 14's PvE and struggling to improve, I don't think not enjoying that makes someone lazy, and I apologize if I implied as much when I said earlier that anyone can do these fights with time, study, and practice. I get that someone might not want to devote those things to what should be free time because they just might not find it fun. I also don't believe I've used the word "demand" in our conversation, but again I apologize if inadvertently did, or if I implied that you were demanding rather than suggesting.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

I'm not talking financial costs. I'm talking costs to the game itself. Every feature they have ever added has come at the cost of something else being trimmed down or tossed aside.

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I'll repost part of my post from another thread that was addressing the need to trim down on the excessive use of visual effects and clutter:

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Either reduce or simplify the visual clutter and telegraphs; or, reduce the number of mechanics altogether, thereby reducing the number and types of needed telegraphs, and make the mechanics you leave hit a little harder to compensate for the cut mechanics.

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I feel like there are ways to do some of these things, while finding ways to compensate for it. Instead of just throwing things away. Like I suggested there, if the number of mechanics have to be reduced to deal with the problem of visual clutter, then have the mechanics that are left behind hit a bit harder, or even have an additional effect or something.

Oh well. We could but ask.

I guess us lazy insta win visual novel players will have to pursue the possibility of a more viable Cash Shop alternative, which certainly has no negative ramifications for everyone who is content with denying even bare minimum safety nets, in the long term. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

I'm not talking financial costs. I'm talking costs to the game itself. Every feature they have ever added has come at the cost of something else being trimmed down or tossed aside.

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I understand that every change SE makes has the potential to be a disaster. Equally, would it make sense had people not lobbied for Viera hats, on the grounds a potential side effect might be their asses falling off?

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Originally Posted by FlorineC

Totally fair, games are a leisure activity and I think it's totally reasonable to tap out when you stop having fun, for whatever reason. While I personally enjoy being challenged in 14's PvE and struggling to improve, I don't think not enjoying that makes someone lazy, and I apologize if I implied as much when I said earlier that anyone can do these fights with time, study, and practice. I get that someone might not want to devote those things to what should be free time because they just might not find it fun. I also don't believe I've used the word "demand" in our conversation, but again I apologize if inadvertently did, or if I implied that you were demanding rather than suggesting.

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Oh you're absolutely fine, some of the previous was more directed at the peanut gallery in general. Besides, having been called "the worst human on the internet" I've probably been less than measured at times.

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Originally Posted by OogaShaka

Being an older gamer, been playing since ff14 came out, Meso Terminal is unplayable for me on the 4 bosses that chain to you encounter due to the dodge mechanics firing to quickly.It would be nice to have a easier mode choice when doing it with the npc's to "progress thru the story" as I feel it's better to npc it first so people aren't upset if i die as a healer. I am not asking for an easier mode for que'ing just for doing it with npc's heck i don't need any loot in an easy mode option either but i do feel that we all should have content we can get thru if its mandatory for the story.

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The new aoe spam mechanics full time isn't fun. I clear dungeons and don't go back sorry I don't find it fun at all. I cap with hunts and have fun with pvp. I sincerely hope they tone it down for 8.0. I've been playing this game since 2.0 Beta and I never felt this way.

Somehow in 7 paragraphs almost nothing actually relevant to this “scary hardcore community” is actually relevant. Let’s discuss each overarching point

Paragraph 1) everyone wants more interactive dungeons and when hardcore people ask for “more buttons” what they want is more engaging rotations. Nobody wants 5 pointless oGCD damage buttons to bloat your hotbar

Paragraph 2) this isn’t even hardcore players arguing this point. This is other casuals who’d prefer to be engaged casuals. It’s not “easy dungeons hardcore community has hardcore” it’s “if you make the dungeons easier then it puts the engaged half of the casuals to sleep”. Remember yoshi p’s “platformer without holes” analogy. That wasn’t in regards to people who could still easily clear content 10* as hard as dungeons

Paragraph 3) dungeons are part of the MSQ and one of the largest sources of tomes, you basically cannot just not engage with them

Paragraph 4) nobody is complaining about people on the floor people are complaining about people so far below the floor that in 100 levels of content they still can’t do a dungeon. 14 is incredibly generous with its skill curve. Hell for classes like healers it actively goes backwards. There has to be an assumption of competency somewhere

Paragraph 5) notice how things like chaotic and forked aren’t popular, it’s because nobody likes them, just because they are hard doesn’t mean the hardcore community has been catered for. Like nobody wanted forked current over a CLL equivalent

Paragraph 6) they can’t make any interesting content anymore and that’s a job problem

Paragraph 7) we all want more players, this isn’t wildstar, but many people also want to feel engaged in it as a game, this isn’t a visual novel

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

So I think you're onto something. A significant fraction of the player base only runs dungeons when they are compelled to do so. This is probably because they don't much enjoy running dungeons, and spend their time engaged with all the other activities FF14 offers. The mostly likely reason someone doesn't like something in a game is because they are bad at it to begin with.

Thus when confronted with the latest one, which they are required to clear so they can find out what happens in the story, they are primed to be pissed off, completely out of practice, and have no long-term knowledge of mechanics because they simply haven't run many dungeons over the last few years. And in some cases it's doubtless true that if such players just practiced more and ran lots of dungeons, they'd find the latest one easier. But many players do not, because to them dungeons are an irritant that only serve to gate progress.

The consensus in this thread appears to be that such players are not playing the game properly and should just leave. I'm personally fine with that for myself, but it does have consequences.




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If people slog through the dungeons because they hate them for all 100 levels they’ll never get better and I don’t see why they then come to the forums and say the game is too hard. Like they obviously aren’t enjoying the game itself and I agree they should probably just give it up for their sanity. If people want a 2nd life simulator out of ff14 then I don’t know what to say

Elden ring is hard, I knew I NEVER wanted to buy or play that game. But I’m not going to ask fromsoft to make an easy mode for me because that doesn’t seem to be how soul games work

And yet there is an "easy mode" of some manner still. Because of players deciding to extend generosity to those who want to enjoy the Elden Ring lore.

Even before that people shared ways within the game to circumvent difficulty that may have assisted otherwise excluded people.

They may not be applicable in this case because of the MMO workings not allowing compliant freedom to adjust ourselves to a comfortable level in the same way as other FF titles do so that's why we're asking. The outreach is there and appreciated for the sentiment but not quite grasping that the devolving to hard carrying in the extreme cases is partly robbing the dignity, experience and FUN of playing and enjoying the game ourselves.

I get the just laugh off being dead thing but... When you're dead you're not doing anything to learn either.

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Originally Posted by missTori

If people slog through the dungeons because they hate them they’ll never get better and I don’t see why they then come to the forums and say the game is too hard. Like they obviously aren’t enjoying the game itself and I agree they should probably just give it up for their sanity. If people want a 2nd life simulator out of ff14 then I don’t know what to say

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I don't want a second life simulator, but my guess is without the venue, (E)RP and store-driven glam scene, this game wouldn't be close to making SE the money they need to subsidize all their failed projects.

You make an important point though. The fact the dungeons are so miserable definitely stops people getting better at them, because they're all one-and-dones for a significant chunk of the player base. You contrast that with raiders spending.... I have no idea... 1,000 pulls on a savage raid?

So we end up with an absolutely massive discrepancy in skill that leads to raiders thinking that non-raiders are taking the piss when they keep dying in a MSQ dungeon.

Do you know how people get better? Difficulty options. I would be interested in starting off a dungeon in baby mode. I might (with DS) get interested in seeing how fast I could run it. Once that became trivial, I'd have the interest to try a harder version.

But when those of us who are admittedly "terrible at PvE" (at PvE, note, not "the game") are confronted with something so beyond us we either get carried and never enter the dungeon again, or just quit the game entirely, there is no improvement. And here we are.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I don't want a second life simulator, but my guess is without the venue, (E)RP and store-driven glam scene, this game wouldn't be close to making SE the money they need to subsidize all their failed projects.

You make an important point though. The fact the dungeons are so miserable definitely stops people getting better at them, because they're all one-and-dones for a significant chunk of the player base. You contrast that with raiders spending.... I have no idea... 1,000 pulls on a savage raid?

So we end up with an absolutely massive discrepancy in skill that leads to raiders thinking that non-raiders are taking the piss when they keep dying in a MSQ dungeon.

Do you know how people get better? Difficulty options. I would be interested in starting off a dungeon in baby mode. I might (with DS) get interested in seeing how fast I could run it. Once that became trivial, I'd have the interest to try a harder version.

But when those of us who are admittedly "terrible at PvE" (at PvE, note, not "the game") are confronted with something so beyond us we either get carried and never enter the dungeon again, or just quit the game entirely, there is no improvement. And here we are.

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But the trusts literally have npc that TALK and tell you what to do, my brain is melting over here
Like if you can’t beat it with trust then yes like your signature I would unsubscribe ( and I’ve seen you post monthly it seems like)
& side note even with summons and some aid on elden ring you probably still have to recognize attack patterns and dodge, which I’d say is still more of a challenge than a tab target MMO like this .

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Honestly at this point I'm just pushing back against posters who are determined to believe that struggling players are simply lazy. My friends who have quit were not. I'm sure this applies to many others who, rather than coming here, have shrugged and silently uninstalled the game.

I'm not demanding anything. The change I an others have suggested is just that. A suggestion. I believe it would lead to better retention and less frustration, potentially for players across the entire skill spectrum. It's certainly possible SE would find a way to eff it up (have you seen the latest PvP changes?).

But it's something for the remaining players to figure out. I'm free of it.



Appreciate the help, was aware, but I needn't have been. Believe it or not I spent quite a lot of time watching videos by folks like Wesk and Cae and others to better understand mechanics, rotations, and all the rest of it. Guess I'm unusually bad at this particular game.

Oh and FWIW, Bardam's Mettle is by far my least favorite dungeon from that xpac.

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I still don't understand why dying and trying again is a concept that seems unfathomable to some here. So what you struggle with mechanics, so what if you die, so what if you try again? Where is the actual issue?

Accepting help from others and relying on others sometimes is not a weakness. You will adapt in time, and you will be able to do it as well. And if it's way beyond anything that you can ever achieve/ "master" in this game, there are plenty of people who can help you/carry you.