Why do casual players seem entitled to cosmetic items added in game?

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Originally Posted by Tint

This is simply not true. That's like saying non-raiders have no use for learning their rotation properly.

BiS gear helps with clearing content faster on all levels, which is espcially usefull if you are grinding content over and over. Even Fates. Plus it helps to outweight bad optimization and errors in your rotation to some degree. It also helps with survivability when you eat a mechanic.

And of course it's simply nice to have some sort of character progression and getting stronger, this is an RPG after all.

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So your point is non-raiders could benefit from BiS, but it's locked behind content they don't do? Okay. Something else to feel bad about for the bulk of us.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

So your point is non-raiders could benefit from BiS, but it's locked behind content they don't do? Okay. Something else to feel bad about for the bulk of us.

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Well non-raiders have pretty much accepted they don't get BiS gear. Nobody makes a fuss about it.

But why do non-raiders also have to give up cosmetic items?

Yes, yes, you agree with me on that I think. I just like to have opinions.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

The thing is, I don't think even they were expecting the hairstyle to just be handed to them, they were just expecting it to be locked behind content they could complete and it wasn't.

The whole "just buy it then" also becomes disingenuous because that implies a casual player being forced to give hardcore players payment, keeping in mind said hardcore players already view casuals with complete and utter contempt, but are happily willing to not only take their millions of gil on the marketboard (while simultaneously claiming gil is "worthless" go figure), but of course expect same casuals to keep paying their sub to keep the game running while spitting in their face and calling them "entitled".

It might just be time for a "casual strike" methinks, see how well the game actually holds up when they're all gone.

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This is a whole new level of victim complex.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

This is a whole new level of victim complex.

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Having this little empathy might be a medical condition.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

The thing is, I don't think even they were expecting the hairstyle to just be handed to them, they were just expecting it to be locked behind content they could complete and it wasn't.

The whole "just buy it then" also becomes disingenuous because that implies a casual player being forced to give hardcore players payment, keeping in mind said hardcore players already view casuals with complete and utter contempt, but are happily willing to not only take their millions of gil on the marketboard (while simultaneously claiming gil is "worthless" go figure), but of course expect same casuals to keep paying their sub to keep the game running while spitting in their face and calling them "entitled".

It might just be time for a "casual strike" methinks, see how well the game actually holds up when they're all gone.

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Meanwhile savage raiders dump countless millions on buying gear, food, pots and materia from casuals every single raid tier without complaining.

Raiders- pay crafters millions on millions of Gil every patch which is basically the thing that keeps the economy running at this point and the only thing that makes levelling crafters worth it

Forum- I sleep

Casuals- pay for a hairstyle they want that hardcore players have access to

Forum- real shit

Maybe people should level their crafters and suck Gil out of the bourgeoisie raider class. You’ll have more money than you know what to do with by 7.4

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

Having this little empathy might be a medical condition.

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I don't empathize with adults throwing tantrums over videogames.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Meanwhile savage raiders dump countless millions on buying gear, food, pots and materia from casuals every single raid tier without complaining.

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It takes longer hard work to gear up to the latest pentamelded crafter gear and tools to even be able to reliably HQ craft the week one gear that the raiders would be interested in buying, than it takes to prog most savages. It takes dedication and preparation, so say nothing of unlocking advanced resource nodes. Can we talk about the definition of casual used here?

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Meanwhile savage raiders dump countless millions on buying gear, food, pots and materia from casuals every single raid tier without complaining.

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No no no no....I would hardly call ppl who craft that stuff casual...casuals arent hardcore crafters and I have no idea where you even got that idea from sir....

It’s easy to pin all your problems on hardcore players when everyone you don’t like is hardcore

“Hardcore crafting” don’t make me laugh. Making 4-5 sets of gear in the savage sale window can be done playing 2-3 hours per day and barely requires any prep

If you don’t want to put any effort into this game just admit that, not try to exclude everyone who wants to put effort in to some “other” group you can loop in with the hardcore playerbase

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

No no no no....I would hardly call ppl who craft that stuff casual...casuals arent hardcore crafters and I have no idea where you even got that idea from sir....

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Hardcore crafters? lmao. How hard do you think it is to do a few leves at the start of an expansion and grab a macro from Teamcraft?

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

It takes longer hard work to gear up to the latest pentamelded crafter gear and tools to even be able to reliably HQ craft the week one gear that the raiders would be interested in buying, than it takes to prog most savages. It takes dedication and preparation, so say nothing of unlocking advanced resource nodes. Can we talk about the definition of casual used here?

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Uh I do think this is actually false, the amount of leniency afforded with crafters in the 'modern era' is just so massive. People put far, far too much pressure and expectancy on themselves. Like, you can get yourself at the entry point which is the gear with default melds, and you would not really have much deficit versus someone that would be literally decked out with tens of millions in melds. This is something that has been greatly streamlined with crafters over the years. Control disparities are not as great as they were due to Innovation reworks, and similarly since there is a greater emphasis put on HQ materials for everyone.

The amount of preparation and dedication required is also greatly lower now. Like, back in HW if you wanted a Grade V materia you were spending 200-500k per attempt, and you would have special concealed nodes which had further rare items needed like Dryad Saps for Astral Birch. As a result of this you would easily see chestpieces alone used for raiding go for a good 40M. These are things which IMO do need to return to the game, as it did give crafters and gatherers another dimension to their gameplay (I do absolutely think people would complain here though)

What I will say though is there is a lot more of a collaborative effort between crafters and raiders, so more often than not they will be paying a fraction of what a full set is on the market, and the supply/demand aspect for crafted gear is already very solid, so I don't think it is a fair comparison to make anyway.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s easy to pin all your problems on hardcore players when everyone you don’t like is hardcore

“Hardcore crafting” don’t make me laugh. Making 4-5 sets of gear in the savage sale window can be done playing 2-3 hours per day and barely requires any prep

If you don’t want to put any effort into this game just admit that, not try to exclude everyone who wants to put effort in to some “other” group you can loop in with the hardcore playerbase

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Hardcore crafters? lmao. How hard do you think it is to do a few leves at the start of an expansion and grab a macro from Teamcraft?

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'Hardcore' crafters absolutely are a thing. Granted, I do not think it is necessarily a hardcore endeavor in itself.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s easy to pin all your problems on hardcore players when everyone you don’t like is hardcore

“Hardcore crafting” don’t make me laugh. Making 4-5 sets of gear in the savage sale window can be done playing 2-3 hours per day and barely requires any prep

If you don’t want to put any effort into this game just admit that, not try to exclude everyone who wants to put effort in to some “other” group you can loop in with the hardcore playerbase

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I feel like you missed the point of the exchange there. I am one of those fully tooled up crafters ready craft the next best crafted tier as soon as 7.2 dropped. But it's late here, this is the last post I'm writing today as I am going to bed right now, so I am going to leave this and maybe another crafter will challenge your notion of "barely any prep needed".

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

'Hardcore' crafters absolutely are a thing.

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For sure. You don't need to be anything remotely resembling a hardcore crafter to make millions off of raiders on savage patch releases though. In the modern game, leveling your crafters and gatherers doesn't take long at all. Gearing them is instant, it's just a gil investment. Then the actual crafts are just a case of grabbing macros from Teamcraft and going ham.

I have a few super casual friends who spend a couple of hours crafting a few sets plus some food and pots on patch day, undercut a few times per day until it sells and they make a decent amount of gil. It's very low effort and time investment. There's nothing hardcore about it.

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's difficult to understand the reasonings. People complained that Delubrum had a hairstyle as a rare drop so they added an token exchange to make it easier available. And now they lock a hairstyle behind the 24 man savage.

And in two years they will gift it away with the moogle tomestones.


With all the mounts, pets and now hairstyle they added to unreal trials, criterion and chaotic raid it becomes an expensive affair for a casual player to collect such things. They all sell for a couple of millions each. It puts hardcore players in a position where they profit a bit too much of casual players and it feels even more like a class divide. The "upper class" gets all the content, nice rewards and for playing their preferred content they also get tons of money. But they don't even need it because they don't have to pay 20 million for a hairstyle. The prices are already rising again.

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This is a really good point that I wanted to highlight so it doesn't get lost. With certain exceptions like the Unreal exclusive mounts and minions, most of the rewards for the harder content in the game can only be obtained by doing that content and is not allowed to be traded or sold. And even with Unreal mounts and minions, there are systems in the game (ie the fact it's weekly) that keep that content alive allowing new people to decide to participate. And with many people doing Unreal each week, the prices for the things that are exclusive to it (which I believe are only a couple of the total offerings, some of the others can be gotten through WT IIRC) stay at a reasonable range. So it limits how much hardcore players can profit from casual players. This is tipping that balance a bit too far in the hardcore direction again.

I'm not a hardcore player, but why are people (likely casuals) using hardcore players as a punching bag for what's wrong at the game and as if the hardcore player is the wall preventing the flood of god tier casual content and not SE drip feeding us all content??? What's wrong with you people...

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

For sure. You don't need to be anything remotely resembling a hardcore crafter to make millions off of raiders on savage patch releases though. In the modern game, leveling your crafters and gatherers doesn't take long at all. Gearing them is instant, it's just a gil investment. Then the actual crafts are just a case of grabbing macros from Teamcraft and going ham.

I have a few super casual friends who spend a couple of hours crafting a few sets plus some food and pots on patch day, undercut a few times per day until it sells and they make a decent amount of gil. It's very low effort and time investment. There's nothing hardcore about it.

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I don't disagree, there is nothing hardcore about it ultimately on a fundamental level, but then much of this is afforded by the fact that SE has such little self-respect of the side-content in this game. If you look at an experienced hardcore crafter versus one doing it casually you will night and day see difference in their results and pacing (not neccessarily associated with melds). You will even see this for those that craft directly for a static. You can see teams of 3-4 crafters be slower than a single person crafting for another static, just due to the amount of familiarity and prep done beforehand. Like I agree, you don't need to be, but community expectation and everything.. For me personally crafting on the market is a miserable experience with how the game is now. I am always doing prep way in advance so that I am going directly through statics

Much of the state of this is around some bizarre 'expectation' of what people should do.. Set by both themselves and the community (This happens for both crafters and raiders). Like, you don't need to fully deck yourself out to craft, you can approach it casually and make 20Mln, I mean you can do this anyway by just merely flipping. The game is very linear, the patches are very linear, how people consume the content is very linear and predictable. Granted, the latter is not necessarily a mindset I would expect from most people, just due to the nature of the activity.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I'm not a hardcore player, but why are people (likely casuals) using hardcore players as a punching bag for what's wrong at the game and as if the hardcore player is the wall preventing the flood of god tier casual content and not SE drip feeding us all content??? What's wrong with you people...

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Asking the real questions.

The raid content and its rewards aren't the problem. The problem is that, if you don't enjoy doing any of that, you're just not gonna have a lot of fresh, new content to sink your teeth into past MSQ until the field operations are out. And, given they don't tend to add that stuff until the X.2 patches, that's a whole lot of waiting with not a lot else that's new to do.

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Originally Posted by NamiRocket

Asking the real questions.

The raid content and its rewards aren't the problem. The problem is that, if you don't enjoy doing any of that, you're just not gonna have a lot of fresh, new content to sink your teeth into past MSQ until the field operations are out. And, given they don't tend to add that stuff until the X.2 patches, that's a whole lot of waiting with not a lot else that's new to do.

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Yeah, I agree with that. I think that is the real issue. It's the fact that if you don't really interact with things like EXs, Savages, and Ults you have really have nothing to do other than log in and afk. I do think SQ needs to change how they release stuff. CAR shouldn't had release this patch, what should be released is the field operations or some other content that isn't really aimed at the savage crowd.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

As someone from Dynamis, you're preaching to the choir about marketboard prices on bloody damn CONSUMABLES of all things and it's something that should be busted wide open.

But alas, that would require more hardcore players to engage with gathering and crafting, and we know how they feel about content they deem "beneath" them, to say nothing of the low opinion they (and you) apparently hold for said players that do the gathering and crafting.

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https://i.imgur.com/j1smSa7.png

I craft my own gear/consumables, thank you very much.

I'm not complaining about crafters/gatherers. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in casual players complaining about having to buy items from people who raid because the majority of those raiders are pumping the money back into the pockets of more casual players.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

2) the reward is no more “casual” than it is “hardcore”. You specifically use the analogy “what if BIS was locked behind IS” directly implying that this is a casual reward locked behind high end as your analogy is the reverse. What makes this a “casual” reward? How do you determine what rewards low effort casual only players intrinsically have the right to? What if this reward was instead say a reward for 10/10/10 in Bozja. That’s all casual content but it’s a long grind people wouldn’t like. How do you determine as a playerbase wide arrangement of who is intrinsically entitled to what based on what content. It feels like most of these complaints are proxy complaints for lack of content

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Because the trend for hairstyles is that they've come from more accessible content. This could be a wide spectrum on the more accessible range of content since we see them them in Gold Saucer, alliance raids, exploratory content, etc. And the trend with that more accessible content is that it has that longer shelf like Kaurhz has mentioned.

With this hairstyle, they're doing a complete 180 on that trend. The content isn't accessible, and there aren't things in the game itself that will keep people running it in spite of that inaccessibility. And many in this thread are giving their feedback about that sudden change in trends.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

https://i.imgur.com/j1smSa7.png

I craft my own gear/consumables, thank you very much.

I'm not complaining about crafters/gatherers. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in casual players complaining about having to buy items from people who raid because the majority of those raiders are pumping the money back into the pockets of more casual players.

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When has this ever been a complaint?

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Originally Posted by hydralus

If the option isn't there, then even fewer people will use it. The fact that there are several people crying about being unable to use it because it's too costly/hard to get is evidence that more people would wear it, IF THEY COULD. However, they can't, which means the people who have worked for it will probably enjoy having a hairstyle that not everyone can get (hence, unique).

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What you said in no way invalidates what I said at all? Odd choice to gatekeep something you also don't appear to be using, for some reason, too.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I'm not a hardcore player, but why are people (likely casuals) using hardcore players as a punching bag for what's wrong at the game and as if the hardcore player is the wall preventing the flood of god tier casual content and not SE drip feeding us all content??? What's wrong with you people...

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Hardcore raider attitudes AND casual player attitude are a contributing factor here. The lack of content sucks, sure. There's a vocal majority of hardcore raiders "happy" that they are the target audience and don't want to stop BEING the target audience. On the flipside, there's a vocal majority of casual players who are "upset" they aren't currently the target audience and feel like the hardcore raiders are being catered to at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

And that's assuming the Field Operation also doesn't get hit with a sudden difficulty spike, or the rewards are actually worth the wait, or how there's nothing stopping hardcore players from doing it too so they basically ended up with double the goodies anyway. It's a whole lot of waiting just to end up disappointed while STILL being crapped on too.
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Far be it for me to tell you what should or shouldn't be seen as difficult for you, but given that field operations haven't really been anything but casual thus far (outside of some of the raid content found within), I have to imagine none of that is going to change any time soon. But that's just my humble opinion as a relatively casual player.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Hardcore raider attitudes AND casual player attitude are a contributing factor here. The lack of content sucks, sure. There's a vocal majority of hardcore raiders "happy" that they are the target audience and don't want to stop BEING the target audience. On the flipside, there's a vocal majority of casual players who are "upset" they aren't currently the target audience and feel like the hardcore raiders are being catered to at the moment.

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No one on the forums is a majority on either side. Normal people don't come here.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

You're an exception to the rule then, because the general attitude from hardcore players seems to be that gatherers/crafters are just dirty wretches they have the misfortune of having to deal with sometimes, though I sort of get it, as I actively avoid buying crafted stuff when I can because I don't like the prices either (it's also why I don't bother with food or potions at all, literally not worth it, even if I make them myself).

Though, I'm also willing to bet that while said hardcore players would love to see said player wares crater below vendor price, they would raise holy hell if you suggested dropping the price of this *one* hairstyle by even half all while touting something about how their "time and effort" is worth more somehow.

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"the general attitude from hardcore players seems to be that gatherers/crafters are just dirty wretches they have the misfortune of having to deal with sometimes"

Who is saying this? From where I'm standing, this just looks like you putting words in people's mouths. Everyone I know either crafts their own stuff, knows someone who will craft for them and buys from them at a cheaper price, or just gets on with it and buys what they need from the marketboard without whining about it.

I don't think it's particularly shocking news that most people would like for the things that they buy on the marketboard to drop in price but would not like for the things they sell on the marketboard to drop in price. I think that applies to pretty much everyone.

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Originally Posted by NamiRocket

Far be it for me to tell you what should or shouldn't be seen as difficult for you, but given that field operations haven't really been anything but casual thus far (outside of some of the raid content found within), I have to imagine none of that is going to change any time soon. But that's just my humble opinion as a relatively casual player.



No one on the forums is a majority on either side. Normal people don't come here.

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Vocal majority. Majority overall don't use forums.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Vocal majority.

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The term is vocal minority. There is no majority here, just the loudest cross section of players, which is a definite minority within the community. It's not vocal majority. That's not a thing people say.

Would casuals be happy if the fashion accessory it dropped was instead a Beard and bald head like a certain strummer?

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Trying to play coy now, huh? Whatever, it doesn't change the hostile divide that exists between casual and hardcore and that FF14 wasn't the game, or community, I thought it was and I feel like I signed up for the wrong MMO this whole time.

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You literally just made up a “hostile complaint” the hardcore community never said or thought then went “see damn hardcore community is being rude I didn’t sign up for this”

Like the voices in your head aren’t even he voices of the hardcore community

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Depending on who you ask though, Field Operations are "midcore" content, and as someone who peeked into Eureka after unlocking it, I could tell it was beyond me and skipped it.

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Good thing I'm not asking anyone then. They are easily casual content.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Depending on who you ask though, Field Operations are "midcore" content, and as someone who peeked into Eureka after unlocking it, I could tell it was beyond me and skipped it.

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Eureka is basically wandering trash mobs and FATEs. Mechanically, it's the same as ye olde overworld map, except elemental affinities matter and different kinds of trash aggro on different kinds of mechanics -- which, if anything, makes Eureka more Final Fantasy-like than MSQ combat.

That's as casual as casual can be short of removing combat entirely. The one bit that isn't is an optional raid that unlocks after the main story concludes, and the process has you click through like three or four, "So, you do understand that this raid is challenging, yes?" dialogs.

What did you actually see in your "peek" that you think is beyond you?

Yeah, Eureka/Bozja are definitely casual content. It doesn't really require you to understand your job or game mechanics in any real depth and there's no prep, organisation or co-ordination required. It does require a bit of time to get through the zones but that's kind of the point. You aren't supposed to finish them in a day.

The CEs and instances in Bozja are roughly alliance raid difficulty, so you might die a few times at those depending how you generally do with that kind of content but you just get a raise from someone and it's no big deal.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Ain't it the truth. I know more hardcore raiders who have completed casual content like Island Sanctuary than casual players who have even thought about entering an extreme in its current expansion.
Hardcore players overwhelmingly do any and all content the devs give them and generally appreciate all aspects of the game more.

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I'm not sure if that's the case or not, but the one aspect of the game they clearly do not appreciate are the players.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'm not sure if that's the case or not, but the one aspect of the game they clearly do not appreciate are the players.

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Hardcore players are a binary. They either log in 30 seconds before raid, expect someone in their static to give them food and pots, say "see you next week" and then log out before even leaving the instance, or they have 30k+ achievement points. There is no in between.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Hardcore players are a binary. They either log in 30 seconds before raid, expect someone in their static to give them food and pots, say "see you next week" and then log out before even leaving the instance, or they have 30k+ achievement points. There is no in between.

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Yes, and I shouldn't make sweeping statements suggesting they are all the same, apologies. While I frequently disagree with you in detail, you argue your points well and in good faith.

Contrast that with this thread which is clearly created to invite a subset of hardcore players to unload their tired, predictable insults on the bulk of the playerbase.

If any, I personally see Field Operation as "Casual content but with potential to be midcore'ish". They're relatively easy to 'clear' down to the last quest, but that's where the casual line starts to blurr into: you're certainly not required to gear up your elemental+2, getting physeos weapon stats roll, optimizing LAs setups, farming fragments to be sold to make bazillion gil, grinding the 3 rays, etc.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

If any, I personally see Field Operation as "Casual content but with potential to be midcore'ish". They're relatively easy to 'clear' down to the last quest, but that's where the casual line starts to blurr into: you're certainly not required to gear up your elemental+2, getting physeos weapon stats roll, optimizing LAs setups, farming fragments to be sold to make bazillion gil, grinding the 3 rays, etc.

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To be fair parsing BA by getting someone to heal-slut you while you chain DE which isn’t really within the purview of what you’d really consider “eureka” itself

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'm not sure if that's the case or not, but the one aspect of the game they clearly do not appreciate are the players.

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Sure don't.

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Originally Posted by NamiRocket

The term is vocal minority. There is no majority here, just the loudest cross section of players, which is a definite minority within the community. It's not vocal majority. That's not a thing people say.

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No, no. The term I used is vocal majority it's fine if you disagree but you don't get to dictate what my point is, it is my point, and I am making it. I have seen the term used a fair amount, just because NamiRocket doesn't use the term doesn't mean nobody does, every, anywhere, at all.