The Truly 'Elite' Player

[Tamoa]

Because FFXI was sooooo hard.
HNM? - Throw bodies at it.
AV? - glitch it, or throw drks at it.
Relic? - Invest more time than a part time job on it.
Difficulty? - none
Time Consuming? - Yes

Thing is, you don't know this first hand. You're just repeating what you have heard and seen others say.

[Andylynn]

Thing is, you don't know this first hand. You're just repeating what you have heard and seen others say.

Nice counter argument, I really think the game was so much harder pre Abyssea.

[Randwolf]

When you have been playing FFXI for 6 months total, saying something like this is NOT a good idea.

Thanks. That confirmed my first thought.

While even back in the day there were things at which you could just throw bodies, there were quite many more that required the people in your alliance to at least be competent, if not down-right good. And, yes, there were ways to cheat. But, the skilled players wouldn't use them because the whole idea was to prove yourself. It's also why people in elite armor do not absolutely mean an elite player. Because winning legitimately is not always required to win.

I used to avoid PUG's for things like DM (I did mine in a mixed Melee/Mage group) because you had no idea whether or not that one or two idiots would ruin the run. Now, I definitely won't join a PUG that is doing something hard. You usually get 3 - 4 players who don't have ws's, magic, or know how to use their JA's (have to love Thieves who never Collaborate even when the WHM is getting beaten to crap).

So, yeah, I'm not really looking for 'elite' players. I just want ones who can competently do their jobs. And, it would be nice if some of the new gear dropped from hard mobs which required you to actually use basic skills. And since I have been playing for longer than 6 months, I can say with assurance, the game did used to require more skill than it does now.

[Tamoa]

Nice counter argument, I really think the game was so much harder pre Abyssea.

You making a statement on how hard/easy FFXI was before Abyssea, is like me telling you how hard/easy WoW is @ max level. I have played WoW for about 10 days, got to lvl 20 and was utterly bored with it. That doesn't mean I know jack shit about what WoW endgame is like.

So, yeah, I'm not really looking for 'elite' players. I just want ones who can competently do their jobs. And, it would be nice if some of the new gear dropped from hard mobs which required you to actually use basic skills. And since I have been playing for longer than 6 months, I can say with assurance, the game did used to require more skill than it does now.

Exactly.

Not saying it was hard, but if you wanted to do endgame successfully (and by that I do NOT mean throwing bodies at NMs), you had to know your job and pay attention.

[Alhanelem]

Well then, your idea? I see you prefer to brew everything. Any idea on how to actually create a challenge. Or, perhaps you'd rather avoid those.

People can play the game however they want. Who are you to dictate how other people "should" play the game. If you want a challenge, there are plenty of them out there. If you don't care about challenge, then fine, whatever. Let them do things how they want, and you can do things how you want. Everyone wins.

[Randwolf]

People can play the game however they want. Who are you to dictate how other people "should" play the game. If you want a challenge, there are plenty of them out there. If you don't care about challenge, then fine, whatever. Let them do things how they want, and you can do things how you want. Everyone wins.

Until they start whining because it takes skills to beat the tough stuff. Skills they never learned because it wasn't required. So, yeah. I agree with you as long as they don't mind not being able to do certain things in the game because they were added for the challenge factor.

[Vold]

It's all a bunch of hogwash. There isn't really a problem here and never will be. People just need something to talk down to feel superior right now because they don't have end game exclusive to them to talk trash. Leeched players do not effect elite players any whatsoever because they all have their linkshells and they don't dare bother mingling with lowbie lifeforms outside of their linkshells except to talk trash to a competing linkshell. This is the case, plain and simple. They might be pissed they have to share Abyssea with outsiders but whatever. What the hell else is new?

As for the leeched players as I call them for a lack of a better word beyond newbie, it's a lot of high hoping going on in that camp. It takes years to be a veteran of any job and you can only understand what I am saying when you are in fact a veteran. It's an entirely different ball game from back when you were a noob of your chosen job. It's about experience and confidence unmatched. A good way to put this debate to an end would be to take a known newbie RDM and a known veteran RDM to Sky and tell them to go solo Gods. I will guarantee you the veteran will walk circles around the newbie. They will panic less, if at all, and they most certainly will kill faster. The veteran will feel no sweat. The newbie will be sweating because they are trying to prove something that cannot be proven. I'm sorry, really, I am. But as with everything else in life it takes a lot of experience before you become a true professional at your profession. It's a simple fact of life. I stress, it's not about skill. It's easy to play this game. It's about experience. People confuse the two A LOT.

You could easily make a mob where you're unable to counter/shadow tank/or kite and half the population couldn't kill it.

Oh, I don't know about that. Most MMORPG players are veterans when it comes to cure bombing the tank job. They should really be veterans by now from Abyssea if they weren't before. Sitting there cure bombing the tank for encounters is as old as MMORPGs. And FFXI certainly had it's share of it early on before people started using Utsusemi to their advantage. I've been saying for weeks now... toss us some boss fights that only PLD can realistically tank. I'll have a good chuckle over it when people moan about the return of PLD turtle tank.

[Karbuncle]

[sarcasm]

I think they should be 1-20 Day spawns, and in order for it to spawn someone has to be actively camping it for at least 15 hours. Furthermore, I really think to make it enjoyable, the NM should only have ~0.5% Drop rate on its good items. So its really really hardcore, So when I'm in town, I can feel like I'm cool. I need a Bigger E-peen.

And they should spawn in the middle of Soul Flayers and Imps, True-Sight mobs, SO while you're actively camping them you're forced to fight things. and if anyone dies it resets its spawn timer, regardless of it being killed or not. That'd be super fun. Also, At least 2 Souflayers and an Imp need to be killed every 10 minutes in order for the HNM to pop, if it doesn't happen, the Window Resets back to 1-20 days. That'd be SUPER Hardcore.

They should also make sure it drops the best items in the game, So people are forced into those Soulflayer-Imp camps to get these items, for at least 1-20 days. That way the armor is really exclusive and rare. It'd be so much fun if you ask me. Days of the Casuals need to end.

[/sarcasm]

I didn't feel like retyping this so i'll copy it here from the NM thread. Also, If you want challenge and not just an NM you can horde E-peen gear over, Try getting people you know to do Abyssea without Atmas, That'll rip you apart quick. You can even work your way up. Start in Visions zones, to Scars, then to Heroes, See how many things you can kill with no Atmas. That'll be an accomplishment worthy of an "Elite".

Truthfully though, I never liked the term "Elite" though. Cause its inaccurate. People all have their own meaning of it. some people think you can only be elite with the best gear. Some think you can be elite by knowing the game, how it works, and gearing to your best. There is really no base-line outside of Opinion. Some people feel you can only be elite if you like Taking a hammer to your Genitals daily (A.K.A Camping Kings).

I think games can present a challenge without a Gimic involved. But the problem is the challenge won't last forever. once a strategy is had, once you get a Rhythm the challenge will be gone. There is no way to make an "Absolutely always challenging mob" Without making it on the level of "Fk" as AV, where it was just a bunch of gimics and impossible-to-deal-with AoE damage, amongst other things.

Basically, [corny], I feel an Elite is someone who knows the game, Experiences it the best way they can, and Actually Enjoy the game without needing to make multiple complaint threads on how terrible the game is and how bad the direction its going. I think Elite players are those who can play the game for what it is, With friends, And enjoy every minute of it. [/corny]

I'm elite

[Randwolf]

My thought on the HNM's is to look at each part and determine if it is a challenge or is designed to actually keep you from fighting it in the first place. I mean for Faf, I could leave my niece at the controller and say "When the big dragon pops, hit this button and call me." My niece who has never played could get lucky and claim Faf. So, I really don't like anything that involves primarily luck (or bots) to even fight in the first place. Same goes with anything that can be melee zerged or burned to death.

So, whatever they introduce, I hope they make sure it takes multiple skill sets (like timing and reading the mob) not just claim and perform the same ability over and over.

[MarkovChain]

Any idea on how to actually create a challenge. Or, perhaps you'd rather avoid those.

You will not be able to achieve challenge as soon as competition with others is involved, wether it is against a ??? (sky,abyssea) or a NM (abysseahaha, NMs, sky, blabla). You don't offer challenge by cockblocking too much either ( tiered NM system like VnM, ZnM, sea) because people spend their time not killing stuff, which is not entertaining. The only thing left is instanced area with entry limitation. Once this is done, put a time limit and many NMs to kill (within reason, and without relying on 18-man, stick to 6-man) and give the final thing some kind of low droprate. Mix salvage dynamis and Nyzul pretty much.