Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

In seriousness though if I had all the armor i had in my sig my ass would be up and down mobs 24/7, if i died, oh well, Exp is Exp, easier to come by than anything else in this game. Then again I'm a melee nutt :X.

I know my situations though, and i know my potential.

I'm working on a Hver just because i wanna toy with it, See its true potential, I'll even post my results too, I bet some people might be surprised. Just like the recent RDM Melee parse, sometimes a job can surprise you, the RDM wasn't super, but they did do better than expected.

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Can I join you with my Ukon so we can have a real Ukon vs Hver parse?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Can I join you with my Ukon so we can have a real Ukon vs Hver parse?

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By all means, I want a true test!

I'm curious in two things

1) My % of Damage vs my pets

2) My combined % Vs a Heavy Melee DD.

These are very important factors, For instance, If my Dmg is only 25% of yours combined with pet, it may look bad, But if i do 50% more damage than my pet (i.e my pet does 10%, i do 15%) then My melee actually added significantly more damage than i would have got not meleeing.

I'm really curious in 1), I know 2) won't be very close, But im really curious just how much more damage i would add meleeing than i would get if i did not. I already know our Staff hits can do more than our pets hits, and I know we as SMN get bonuses from haste/etc, so we already come out heavy in the DPS department over our pets.

its the WS damage I'm worried about, but with 2x Procs i think it might level out in the end, I expect to do at least 100% or more of my pets total damage, which would effectively double my damage output vs not meleeing.

Either Way, I don't actually doubt what dallas is saying, he may be exaggerating a little, but i think this parse might surprise people more than you think, and i feel the most important factor is going to be my % vs my Avatars.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

By all means, I want a true test!

I'm curious in two things

1) My % of Damage vs my pets

2) My combined % Vs a Heavy Melee DD.

These are very important factors, For instance, If my Dmg is only 25% of yours combined with pet, it may look bad, But if i do 50% more damage than my pet (i.e my pet does 10%, i do 15%) then My melee actually added significantly more damage than i would have got not meleeing.

I'm really curious in 1), I know 2) won't be very close, But im really curious just how much more damage i would add meleeing than i would get if i did not. I already know our Staff hits can do more than our pets hits, and I know we as SMN get bonuses from haste/etc, so we already come out heavy in the DPS department over our pets.

its the WS damage I'm worried about, but with 2x Procs i think it might level out in the end, I expect to do at least 100% or more of my pets total damage, which would effectively double my damage output vs not meleeing.

Either Way, I don't actually doubt what dallas is saying, he may be exaggerating a little, but i think this parse might surprise people more than you think, and i feel the most important factor is going to be my % vs my Avatars.

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Well, you also have to figure that the lower the % of total DPS between the two of us, the better the chance you would do multiple times more damage.

But I don't think that Emp Staff would be anywhere near as useful as any other emp weapon. Which is the whole point of TP feeding the mob.

I don't know, TP Feeding a mob isn't really a big problem unless you're fighting something particularly dangerous, very few of those types of mobs exist these days, In fact i can only really name a handful.

Still, Empyrean Staff is the only one that uses Sedna/Kukulkan Items if i remember right, So not like its wasting anything. Only problem will be 90 where its on the same trial as Shield. still, Hver90 is D:98, DPS of 1508, Only 160DPS behind Ukon90. So its got a pretty solid ground there.

I don't expect it to come very close, But I suspect the damage output might surprise you, and i definitely think, at least in Abyssea, it will do enough to be "Worth the TP Feed" on a lot of mobs.

Now on things like apademak or something.... different case.

But i truly think the damage is going to shock a few people, and i especially think I will do better numbers than my Avatar in the long run.

That would be really interesting to see. So much about mage melee tends to be based on a mixture of theory-craft and vitriol, from both sides, so it's always good to see numbers from actual situations. If nothing else, people would have the minutia of a parse to throw conniption fits over and that would be a refreshing change of pace.

I think the RDM melee parse was a good step in the direction of knowledge over hear-say.

I think a SMN melee parse would be good info, I just want to make sure i have the best gear for the situation when it comes down to it. So it might take me a while, but i'll hold true to my word and get the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I think the RDM melee parse was a good step in the direction of knowledge over hear-say.

I think a SMN melee parse would be good info, I just want to make sure i have the best gear for the situation when it comes down to it. So it might take me a while, but i'll hold true to my word and get the weapon.

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Good luck! Karb. Are you going to do the parse inside or outside Abyssea? Or both?

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Good luck! Karb. Are you going to do the parse inside or outside Abyssea? Or both?

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I'd be willing to do both, But I'd like to try Inside abyssea, its where i feel the job is best meleeing.

Outside IDK where i'd go or what mobs to fight.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I'd be willing to do both, But I'd like to try Inside abyssea, its where i feel the job is best meleeing.

Outside IDK where i'd go or what mobs to fight.

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We could do both. Lets talk about it when you get online.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I'd be willing to do both, But I'd like to try Inside abyssea, its where i feel the job is best meleeing.

Outside IDK where i'd go or what mobs to fight.

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In Abyssea it wouldn't really prove much(imo), with atmas any job can melee fine as is, and stuff like cruor buffs would atleast skew the SMN vs. Avatar test. Can't think of where to go off the top of my head the GoV/mob placement update added lots of Ts to old areas though so I'm sure theres at least one place you could test.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

In Abyssea it wouldn't really prove much(imo), with atmas any job can melee fine as is, and stuff like cruor buffs would atleast skew the SMN vs. Avatar test. Can't think of where to go off the top of my head the GoV/mob placement update added lots of Ts to old areas though so I'm sure theres at least one place you could test.

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Well i had always believed SMN Melee held its best spotlight In abyssea, testing it outside would go against my current beliefs of its uses. However, I'd be willing to try the ~T mobs in GoV Areas... That may require outside assistance (like, a WHM lol, maybe a real tank).

still would not be against the idea.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well i had always believed SMN Melee held its best spotlight In abyssea, testing it outside would go against my current beliefs of its uses. However, I'd be willing to try the ~T mobs in GoV Areas... That may require outside assistance (like, a WHM lol, maybe a real tank).

still would not be against the idea.

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Well as a test of mage melee at it's best, an Abyssean run is fine.

But you said you wanted to test SMN vs. a Heavy DD, which Abyssea would make a poor test ground. As you will be looking for a mathematical comparison of the two.

Atmas and Cruor buffs will turn EMs~Ts into EPs~DCs for all intents and purposes, which anything can swing a weapon at. These buffs, I feel would also alter the difference between the SMN and the WAR.

The following is a hypothetical example and is not based on real or believed values:

If on a T++ the WAR with it's best gear is close to capping ACC(say 92%), and the SMN is a bit away from cap(80%) in it's best available gear, these numbers are obvisiously just an example(for any who are looking to argue). Now lets say both are using Atma of RR, the WAR caps acc to spare with tonnes left over, and the SMN may well close that gap and also cap acc. In this case the test is invalid because it indicates that a SMN vs. WAR are the same in terms of acc.

This would work both ways lets say to cap acc on a mob WAR only needs RR, where as SMN needs RR and C&D, then the test is invalid because the WAR can equip 2 heavy DD atmas whereas the SMN is stuck with only one.

-NOT SO NINJA EDIT-

A SMN vs. it's Pet test would also be of less worth in Abyssea seeing how pets are screwed out of ~70 STR & DEX from cruor buffs that the master gets.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well i had always believed SMN Melee held its best spotlight In abyssea, testing it outside would go against my current beliefs of its uses. However, I'd be willing to try the ~T mobs in GoV Areas... That may require outside assistance (like, a WHM lol, maybe a real tank).

still would not be against the idea.

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I can still tank and do damage, give me a WHM and I can do any mobs pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Well as a test of mage melee at it's best, an Abyssean run is fine.

But you said you wanted to test SMN vs. a Heavy DD, which Abyssea would make a poor test ground. As you will be looking for a mathematical comparison of the two.

Atmas and Cruor buffs will turn EMs~Ts into EPs~DCs for all intents and purposes, which anything can swing a weapon at. These buffs, I feel would also alter the difference between the SMN and the WAR.

The following is a hypothetical example and is not based on real or believed values:

If on a T++ the WAR with it's best gear is close to capping ACC(say 92%), and the SMN is a bit away from cap(80%) in it's best available gear, these numbers are obvisiously just an example(for any who are looking to argue). Now lets say both are using Atma of RR, the WAR caps acc to spare with tonnes left over, and the SMN may well close that gap and also cap acc. In this case the test is invalid because it indicates that a SMN vs. WAR are the same in terms of acc.

This would work both ways lets say to cap acc on a mob WAR only needs RR, where as SMN needs RR and C&D, then the test is invalid because the WAR can equip 2 heavy DD atmas whereas the SMN is stuck with only one.

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Then lets make it so the SMN + Avatar and the WAR has the same atmas:

Apoc, RR, and VV.

Curor Buffs will decide the outcome, unless Karby has all abyssites for Cruor buffs, then we will be on "equal" footing in that case too.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Then lets make it so the SMN + Avatar and the WAR has the same atmas:

Apoc, RR, and VV.

Curor Buffs will decide the outcome, unless Karby has all abyssites for Cruor buffs, then we will be on "equal" footing in that case too.

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I actually do have all Abyssites for Cruor buffs >_>;; However, if i did do that, I was planning on using VV/RR/Apoc.

I'd like to do both tests, But as i said, I'm working on the gear now and im a slow person, so it might be a while before we can solidly do this, But i will hold to my word and test it!

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I actually do have all Abyssites for Cruor buffs >_>;; However, if i did do that, I was planning on using VV/RR/Apoc.

I'd like to do both tests, But as i said, I'm working on the gear now and im a slow person, so it might be a while before we can solidly do this, But i will hold to my word and test it!

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Are you going to do 85 Hver or 90? You should get 90 because it won't really be that long before I get my 90 Ukon.

Also, lets do it regardless of the obligatory Dallas post: This test will not prove anything because I can't fudge the numbers in my favor!

Raz, I offered proof. You can choose to reject a drawing at your own risk.

If you want the parses, go to zam, find it in the sticky. That was back in the Martial vs ridill days. The gap in haste and weapon has narrowed. No, I won't make you shut up.

The picture is better. Free advertising. You have to look at that and know it worked in 2006. Same playstyle, MUCH easier game.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well i had always believed SMN Melee held its best spotlight In abyssea, testing it outside would go against my current beliefs of its uses.

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This makes a lot of sense, at least to me. You may already have Razed Ruin and Co. on for your pet, +90% HP makes generic AoEs much less threatening, there's rarely a profound need for an extra source of healing, leaving to change jobs can be problematic, etc.

Outside of Abyssea, the meaningful content is mostly Voidwatch and re-vamped older content. Bonking most of that stuff seems ill-advised and I'm not sure what point bonking GoV monsters would have. Maybe you could bring Havartidangler to bear against some Decent Challenge stuff in city dynamis zones?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Then lets make it so the SMN + Avatar and the WAR has the same atmas:

Apoc, RR, and VV.

Curor Buffs will decide the outcome, unless Karby has all abyssites for Cruor buffs, then we will be on "equal" footing in that case too.

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Even with the same atmas there's a shadow of doubt on the result, although as for total damage contribution the gimp to pets from lack of cruor buffs to them.

I still think(could be wrong) that Atmas would, alter the results in terms of Acc, and possibly other ways.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

This makes a lot of sense, at least to me. You may already have Razed Ruin and Co. on for your pet, +90% HP makes generic AoEs much less threatening, there's rarely a profound need for an extra source of healing, leaving to change jobs can be problematic, etc.

Outside of Abyssea, the meaningful content is mostly Voidwatch and re-vamped older content. Bonking most of that stuff seems ill-advised and I'm not sure what point bonking GoV monsters would have. Maybe you could bring Havartidangler to bear against some Decent Challenge stuff in city dynamis zones?

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I lol'ed true story.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Raz, I offered proof. You can choose to reject a drawing at your own risk.

If you want the parses, go to zam, find it in the sticky. That was back in the Martial vs ridill days. The gap in haste and weapon has narrowed. No, I won't make you shut up.

The picture is better. Free advertising. You have to look at that and know it worked in 2006. Same playstyle, MUCH easier game.

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Your proof is on the website notorious for bad information? And you want us to believe it? I would believe your information if it was on wiki, and even then they are falling down to Alla notoriety now (outdated information instead of incorrect information).

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Raz, I offered proof. You can choose to reject a drawing at your own risk.

If you want the parses, go to zam, find it in the sticky. That was back in the Martial vs ridill days. The gap in haste and weapon has narrowed. No, I won't make you shut up.

The picture is better. Free advertising. You have to look at that and know it worked in 2006. Same playstyle, MUCH easier game.

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Your willingness to ignore the obvious astounds.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

This makes a lot of sense, at least to me. You may already have Razed Ruin and Co. on for your pet, +90% HP makes generic AoEs much less threatening, there's rarely a profound need for an extra source of healing, leaving to change jobs can be problematic, etc.

Outside of Abyssea, the meaningful content is mostly Voidwatch and re-vamped older content. Bonking most of that stuff seems ill-advised and I'm not sure what point bonking GoV monsters would have. Maybe you could bring Havartidangler to bear against some Decent Challenge stuff in city dynamis zones?

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Perhaps, Kinda need Dynamis for my mandau :P, I don't think i could stomach Zerging mobs without procing there (which would be required for a decent test? I don't know, could work it out, but all the waiting to proc would skew it cause it would give time for BP timer to come up between fights).

On Razu:

I kinda agree, But I don't think it'd be a big problem, Like i said, I'll likely do an Outside and Inside test, I'm just vastly curious where a SMN melee would stand in both terms of DD vs a Real Melee, and DD vs our Avatars. I suspect great things to come.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I kinda agree, But I don't think it'd be a big problem, Like i said, I'll likely do an Outside and Inside test, I'm just vastly curious where a SMN melee would stand in both terms of DD vs a Real Melee, and DD vs our Avatars. I suspect great things to come.

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Then theres no problem, a baseline test(outside), and one in the best scenario(Abyssea) could yield some interesting results in comparison. Although I'm more waiting for the baseline than the other.

I'm looking forward to seeing:

Avatar Vs. SMN

Avatar+ SMN Vs. WAR

*SMN(no pet) Vs. WAR

*This one because it will be the truest test of a mage(SMN in this case) meleeing.

My problem will be deciding between Keeping Aftermath up, or using a Decent WS for over-all damage. (Retribution can hit some pretty wonky numbers, especially with the right WS Gear).

Might have to run a few different tests in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

My problem will be deciding between Keeping Aftermath up, or using a Decent WS for over-all damage. (Retribution can hit some pretty wonky numbers, especially with the right WS Gear).

Might have to run a few different tests in the long run.

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I think your main problem will be MP. Since being in full melee gear would lose out a lot on perp gear.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I think your main problem will be MP. Since being in full melee gear would lose out a lot on perp gear.

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Probably stick to keeping Aftermath up then (Myrkr recovers MP), Just use Mass MP Gear as "WS" gear, since its a % Recovery.

I think its doable...

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I think your main problem will be MP. Since being in full melee gear would lose out a lot on perp gear.

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Yeah you'll probably be tied in to Myrkr, or at the least Spirit Taker.

Don't worry about other WS options besides Myrkr. SE is promising a way around the BP timer cap. Likely by the time you get all gear, BPs will operate as a function of mp recovery (basically at WS speed). No WS is going to replace a BP.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Don't worry about other WS options besides Myrkr. SE is promising a way around the BP timer cap. Likely by the time you get all gear, BPs will operate as a function of mp recovery (basically at WS speed). No WS is going to replace a BP.

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Unlikely that they will reduce BP timer to 3 seconds

I think 3 Seconds is a bit generous, Average time to get 100% TP for a WAR, assuming capped haste... would be around 5 seconds, this is assuming uninterrupted melee, and a modest Double Attack rate, and Capped Haste values.

When tanking, which I always find myself doing in abyssea, Retaliation really changes things.

I say ~0-1 seconds if you're tanking 8-10 Mandies then!

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Unlikely that they will reduce BP timer to 3 seconds

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Even if they did he would be completely out of MP is ~45 sec.

Lol, well obviously Retaliation is hard to parse and compare because situations change drastically.

But hell if SMN gets the benefit of the doubt, why not WAR?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Unlikely that they will reduce BP timer to 3 seconds

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Funny, we've fallen back on WAR stealing credit for a group again, huh? This time in tank mode, but never killing off anything and never spending any time WSing.

Focus please. Unbuffed, so back to 360 MP every 23 seconds. Will SE allow avatars to double BP rate for a price? Likely. More than 1000 mp/minute? Not likely.

Oh wow. You know what would be really awesome? Attaching "additional effect: reset spells and abilities" to the L95 version of Myrkr. LOL

In Dallas's mind, SMN can do everything by itself. Sure, it can give it self some shitty buffs, sure it can do some really horrible AoE heals. But it can't go solo+melee Tablilla. It would need a healer for that.

Stop talking to him.

I'm serious. If you stop responding, he won't have anything. I'm going to start getting on people who reply to him. Stop.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Funny, we've fallen back on WAR stealing credit for a group again, huh? This time in tank mode, but never killing off anything and never spending any time WSing.

Focus please. Unbuffed, so back to 360 MP every 23 seconds. Will SE allow avatars to double BP rate for a price? Likely. More than 1000 mp/minute? Not likely.

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Except you can't get 100% TP in 23 seconds. More like 45 seconds. Lets be realistic here. You got to add the time it takes away from casting cure on yourself from getting AoE spammed, Blood Pacting, and all those misses you will have.