Stats Revamp: Auto-Attack

Hello guys!
It's still a mystery how stats will work in A Realm Reborn, so we have to base our ideas on what we have now, but for sure I think that the 2 Auto-attack Stats are a quite strange way to drive people in the choice of which stats increase.

It's possible that it is caused by an unbalance between stats,

EX: DEX should increase Block Rate for Shield, but it's effect is far too much low to justify its increase instead of MND

but moreover it has a double effect,

EX: MND influences Auto-attack and Heal Magic Potency, so if you are a PLD you can kill two birds with one stone

and lastly it limits further our freedom on customize our PGs.
A reasonable choice to me, is to abolish the 2 Auto-attack stats as they are now (with all the complainings of who spent money/time to build their gear up, I'm one of them don't worry :p) or find a user-friendly solution to solve this.

I personally don't care to much about this aspect of the game ( = It won't ruin our game experience), but it's undeniable that it steals depth to the game so I think it's an important aspects to consider for ARR.

As said at 45:08 in this video from 25th Anniversary something will change. Can we have any more information about it, please? :)

I disagree. We don't need fundamental changes to how base stats work. What I would rather see is greater balance to the ratio of base stats to derived stats. For example, the effectiveness of adding STR or VIT vs Attack Power for WAR. Currently, it's not really a good idea to add attack power at all, unless you have solid triple melds or even quad melds to allow you to reach STR and VIT caps. (Again using WAR as an example.) In which case the attack power would be the third or fourth materia on a particular piece. As it stands now, until you reach the caps for your base stats, balance leans extremely heavily in favor of base stats to derived stats.

Given the information that they have shared with us, I'm guessing this is the direction they are taking.

/fingerscrossed

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Originally Posted by Enma

As said at 45:08 in this video from 25th Anniversary something will change. Can we have any more information about it, please? :)

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http://i50.tinypic.com/ekgqxx.jpg

I'd like to see "detailed" mode on items where when it says +20 strength in () it also says
"+5 attack damage, +3% shield block rate".

Having many different types of modifiers (strength, block rate, intelligence. bla bla bla) is cool for varied items and preferences, but I shouldn't have to reverse engineer every patch what a stat does. Just freaking tell me lol.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I'd like to see "detailed" mode on items where when it says +20 strength in () it also says
"+5 attack damage, +3% shield block rate".

Having many different types of modifiers (strength, block rate, intelligence. bla bla bla) is cool for varied items and preferences, but I shouldn't have to reverse engineer every patch what a stat does. Just freaking tell me lol.

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They do tell you what it does, the only issue was the stat system in this game is just so...bad and poorly formulated (re all remember protect and shell doing jack shit) that they had to keep tooling around with it. Like in FFXI they told you what stats did just like they did with XIV and only ever touched the formulas for specific weapon types, i.e 1hand or 2hand however, but with XIV since you need at least 10 million of a stat to feel a difference, it always seemed like something was off.

Higher base stat means equally higher need of modifiers which they changed around to try to make it matter more and make it easier for the player. It never works out. So hopefully the 1:1 change in ARR will solve all that problem.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

So hopefully the 1:1 change in ARR will solve all that problem.

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This is why I think the changes will just achieve a greater balance of base stats to derived stats, rather than a complete stat overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

They do tell you what it does, the only issue was the stat system in this game is just so...bad and poorly formulated (re all remember protect and shell doing jack shit) that they had to keep tooling around with it. Like in FFXI they told you what stats did just like they did with XIV and only ever touched the formulas for specific weapon types, i.e 1hand or 2hand however, but with XIV since you need at least 10 million of a stat to feel a difference, it always seemed like something was off.

Higher base stat means equally higher need of modifiers which they changed around to try to make it matter more and make it easier for the player. It never works out. So hopefully the 1:1 change in ARR will solve all that problem.

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I meant in exact context.

Like if I have 40000 strength, adding 4 more will do nothing as I hit the cap looooong ago.

So the item would show in context what that did to your character.

Because yes they have a little tooltip you can hover your mouse over stats in some places - thats not helpful to knowing what it is really doing. There is a lot of behind the scenes math you have to whip out yourself.

Really hopeful to understand the relation between mind and healing potency, or intelligence and magic attack power.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

There is a lot of behind the scenes math you have to whip out yourself.

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This is the reason I like RPGs, it would suck to me if every single aspect were revealed. Then it's just paint by numbers.

I prefer trial and error until I get things just rght. It's the same reason I don't watch strategy videos.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

This is the reason I like RPGs, it would suck to me if every single aspect were revealed. Then it's just paint by numbers.

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Eh, I dont think having to do theory(on stats)craft is required for an rpg. I'd prefer I knew which one was better for my preference. Ok so this intelligence will make me do X but these other direct stats are more effective at this X, and when I combine all of them together - oh look I really what this combination.

Otherwise players just read someones 20 hour test and calculus to reverse engineer formulas, which is the same thing as above just a bigger pia. My preference though.

In addition to what Molly said, if we're sticking with something close to the current system (a decision I would be satisfied with one way or the other), it would be physically impossible to display contextual information like that. A vast majority of stats are dependent on dLVL, meaning a simple tooltip doesn't have enough context to determine if you are at cap or not.

Yep since if you're level 50 and something level 70 decides to cuddle you, your stats don't matter.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

In addition to what Molly said, if we're sticking with something close to the current system (a decision I would be satisfied with one way or the other), it would be physically impossible to display contextual information like that. A vast majority of stats are dependent on dLVL, meaning a simple tooltip doesn't have enough context to determine if you are at cap or not.

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Not sure why you think that it is impossible. You apply context to your character.

Intelligence increases two stats, if one of the stats is near the cap then the context will demonstrate the diminishing returns.

Just like in a lot of recent games they have "DPS" based off of all your stats on character. It is a reliable number excluding monster factors, like some monsters are really strong aganist fire so your fire damage is nulled now.

I don't think you understand my meaning, the cap itself is calculated in part by dLVL. The formulas for determining... well... everything in FFXIV are immensely more complex than in almost any other MMO. The effect of a given piece of gear can be approximated by assuming you will be fighting a level 60 enemy (most endgame). But any tooltip cannot safely make the same assumption. Players at earlier levels will not be facing enemies at +10, so for them, it would be an inaccurate metric.

Using your own stats as a basis would be inaccurate to the point of uselessness, since dLVL has such a strong influence on stats and stat caps. Furthermore, players fight monsters anywhere between +0 and +15 most often. Take a look at Kanican's naked Ifrit thesis for more information as to why this is a serious obstetrical with the current system.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Not sure why you think that it is impossible. You apply context to your character.

Intelligence increases two stats, if one of the stats is near the cap then the context will demonstrate the diminishing returns.

Just like in a lot of recent games they have "DPS" based off of all your stats on character. It is a reliable number excluding monster factors, like some monsters are really strong aganist fire so your fire damage is nulled now.

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I'd rather not have that level of detail.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

I don't think you understand my meaning, the cap itself is calculated in part by dLVL. The formulas for determining... well... everything in FFXIV are immensely more complex than in almost any other MMO. The effect of a given piece of gear can be approximated by assuming you will be fighting a level 60 enemy (most endgame). But any tooltip cannot safely make the same assumption. Players at earlier levels will not be facing enemies at +10, so for them, it would be an inaccurate metric.

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I think its assumed that the calculation would consider the level of your character. Obviously attack speed would add more damage to a level 50 then it would to a level 10, or if a cap is changing on a curve then the return on investment would change as you level as well.

But where was it said that your stats are based off of monster levels? That would be some really really weird system decisions. I believe your stats dont change, just the monster has exponential resistances based on level. Which is alright, thats pretty much in all mmo's anyways.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I'd rather not have that level of detail.

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Fair enough. But are you referring to for yourself, or you feel it is something unfair no one should be able to innately see? Like I figured to see full on stat details you held "hotkey" over an item tooltip - because it isnt the most immersive feature and I dont always need to see it.

dLVL refers to the difference betten player level and target level. It's all over the FFXIV formulas. Check out Kanican's Live Journal for a more detailed explanation. Monsters that are +10 treat stats vastly different than monsters that are -10 or even +5.

Edit: Ah, on rereading your post, yes your stats don't change on dLVL. But I was speaking specifically to your suggestion that it tell you that you are not receiving any bonus above "cap". The game has no way of knowing the exact effects of any given stat bonus without being provided a dLVL. It can say "This will give you an effective +2 eva and +2 block rate". But the actual effects of those on damage or defense are incalculable.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

dLVL refers to the difference betten player level and target level. It's all over the FFXIV formulas. Check out Kanican's Live Journal for a more detailed explanation. Monsters that are +10 treat stats vastly different than monsters that are -10 or even +5.

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Yeah thats nothing new, to most mmorpgs - though FF likes to emphasize it. There is still an incredible amount of context that is invisible that could be shown.

I'm not asking for a "what will my thunder 2 do on monsters" stat - obviously it varies.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Fair enough. But are you referring to for yourself, or you feel it is something unfair no one should be able to innately see? Like I figured to see full on stat details you held "hotkey" over an item tooltip - because it isnt the most immersive feature and I dont always need to see it.

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It's not that it's unfair, it's that is turns gearing your character into a paint-by-numbers game. I'd rather see some variety that comes with a certain amount of guess work. We'd get that variety if base stats were balanced more closely with derived stats.

Sorry, read edit above, I miss read your issue.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

Edit: Ah, on rereading your post, yes your stats don't change on dLVL. But I was speaking specifically to your suggestion that it tell you that you are not receiving any bonus above "cap". The game has no way of knowing the exact effects of any given stat bonus without being provided a dLVL. It can say "This will give you an effective +2 eva and +2 block rate". But the actual effects of those on damage or defense are incalculable.

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Yeah I get that. But I'd like to see when I add mind how much does my cure potency go up. Such like that.
(For example SE dares put a DPS number on weapons, even though obviously it doesnt do that damage lol)

They can do a general dLVL equation but as you say it would be unreliable in most cases. They would have to offer the ability to examine your character with a dLVL slider or some such.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

It's not that it's unfair, it's that is turns gearing your character into a paint-by-numbers game. I'd rather see some variety that comes with a certain amount of guess work. We'd get that variety if base stats were balanced more closely with derived stats.

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While I don't agree with a paint-by-numbers approach, and as I have been saying in this thread already I think such a stat-revamping is somewhat unnecessary (or at least any changes should be to other areas, like the way dLVL effects damage and defense [particularly defense]), this issue already exists and will continue to exist as long as FFXIV disparages incomparables. As long as it is possible to say "Everyone should get this gear because X stat is better than Y stat for Z reason" paint-by-numbers will exist in a meaningful fashion.

It is a well known fact that security through obscurity does not work (hiding your password in 3,000 files does not make your password any more secure). The same principle applies here, formulas should be complex because they add something to the game, not just because they make it "harder" to tell which stat is better.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

It is a well known fact that security through obscurity does not work (hiding your password in 3,000 files does not make your password any more secure). The same principle applies here, formulas should be complex because they add something to the game, not just because they make it "harder" to tell which stat is better.

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While that certainly is true, consider this; showing your password to the world means that everyone knows your password immediately. IMO the emphasis in any stat changes should be placed on balance, thus requiring a larger amount of guess work, the effect of which will be more variety. In other words, there shouldn't be such an obvious choice when choosing gear. If I used attack power over STR, I should be able to achieve very similar DMG output to somebody who favors STR. That is not currently the case unless I really heavily stack attack power.

Perhaps, though I would argue that we should strive towards true balance (or as near to it as is reasonable given the mechanics) rather than simple perceived balance brought on by guesswork. That doesn't bring balance, that just brings on people who guess right, and have technically better gear, and those who guess wrong, and have technically worse gear.

I would bring up perfect imbalance but it seems that these videos are rather unpopular around here (personally I find them fascinating, even the ones I don't fully agree with).

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Originally Posted by Hulan

Perhaps, though I would argue that we should strive towards true balance (or as near to it as is reasonable given the mechanics) rather than simple perceived balance brought on by guesswork. That doesn't bring balance, that just brings on people who guess right, and have technically better gear, and those who guess wrong, and have technically worse gear.

I would bring up perfect imbalance but it seems that these videos are rather unpopular around here (personally I find them fascinating, even the ones I don't fully agree with).

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Ah, I see, we aren't completely understanding each other. I actually am arguing for both; greater balance, and keeping obscurity in addition to greater balance.

Agreed, then. I personally actually quite like the complexity myself, though I think it goes a little overboard a times (it should be complex to add nuance to the game, not just simple complexity). As it stands, you can easily tell a player who truly understands the game simply by talking to them. Not that "truly understanding" the game is required to have fun playing it, but the added layer of theorycraft is quite refreshing for me. Though many disagree.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

Agreed, then. I personally actually quite like the complexity myself, though I think it goes a little overboard a times (it should be complex to add nuance to the game, not just simple complexity). As it stands, you can easily tell a player who truly understands the game simply by talking to them. Not that "truly understanding" the game is required to have fun playing it, but the added layer of theorycraft is quite refreshing for me. Though many disagree.

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I like theorycrafting on a more founded basis :P. I want to know where the cap is, I want to know how many points intelligence is worth.

There is still theorycrafting beyond that (lots and lots). But to be able to know what something does I should be able to ask the game, not consult / or make a 20 page research document. (What does armor do / why is VIT better or worse in some cases "add confusion here on stats")