Please Bring Back DoTs and Debuffs

Just throwing my thoughts in a thread in the extremely rare chance that the devs see this. And just to voice my own displeasures with job changes in DPS ever since the start of Shadowbringers.

In all of the job fantasies out there in fantasy games, my favourite one to play as are annoyers. The ones where you watch your opponents die by stacking DoTs on them, or stop them in their tracks or make them more vulnerable with debuffs helpful to the whole party like slows, or lowering the boss' damage and defense. I enjoy managing all of those things, and I love being this annoying thorn in the boss' side that they just can't get rid of, and it makes me sad that the dev team is slowly phasing them out of the game with each patch and expansion. Slowly whittling away my favorit job fantasy.

Sure, there are still a lot of jobs with DoTs, but they only have 1. With the exception of BRD, and old SMN. But neither of their gameplays revolves around managing their DoTs anymore, if ever.

As for debuffs, the only one that exists nowadays on a DPS is Trick Attack (a defense down debuff), and the way it is now, it's practically written all over it that its gonna get the axe soon, and be replaced by the less satisfying Mug. Tanks have Reprisal and other damage down skills, but tank rotations are so simple they bore me, and GNB's big explosions just aren't my cup of tea.

So far, there isn't a single job to comes even close to the satisfaction that an annoyer brings to me. Invulning or kitchen sink-ing tank busters is the closest thing, but other wise, I find tanks boring to play (or just aren't my cup of tea). I can' heal to save anyone's life, and none of the existing DPS fulfill that job fantasy. I expected NIN would (cause every other ninja in rpg games DoT and debuff bosses) but FFXIV's NIN just looks more and more like a melee RDM with each expansion. :/ I don't care that its dps is terrible for balancing purposes. I just want a dps job that can whittle down a boss's HP bar with DoT management, and has a hefty debuffing kit.

Nothing quite brings me pleasure like doting up an enemy and watching them slowly die. There's just nothing like it. We need a DoT job, but the direction SE is going I doubt we'll get one. A shame, that's such a fun archtype to fill.

You are literally never going to get class based debuffs back that isn't trick attack.

Stop.

I think that SMN stopped being a DoT-based caster this expansion to allow them to release a DoT-based caster next expansion.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Merchant-type ranged dps that DoTs up mobs by charging interest-over-time effects and cashes in those debts for burst.

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Originally Posted by Fryfor

You are literally never going to get class based debuffs back that isn't trick attack.

Stop.

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I mean chain exists

Picking up classes like condi Scourge in GW2 reminded me once again that the lack of playstyles and player expression with jobs in XIV is shocking. No other playstyle except burst DPS isn't allowed to exist because they simply don't want to bother balancing anything else, as we see with PLD's changes in patch 6.21 frontloading more potency into its magic phase. I can only assume the 6.3 rework will follow suit.

Ain't even just DoTs, all of the things that make RPGs what they are have been lost over time. Resistances, elements, debuffs, even stats dont really matter outside of week 1 savage and maybe ultimates. I hear people talk about old abilities and they sound so much more interesting than what we have now. All skills are losing their flavour over time, I've noticed it and I've only been around for one expansion. God knows how people who've been around since ARR feel

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Ain't even just DoTs, all of the things that make RPGs what they are have been lost over time. Resistances, elements, debuffs, even stats dont really matter outside of week 1 savage and maybe ultimates. I hear people talk about old abilities and they sound so much more interesting than what we have now. All skills are losing their flavour over time, I've noticed it and I've only been around for one expansion. God knows how people who've been around since ARR feel

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As someone who’s played since legacy yeah the skill system has changed so much and become so bland that it’s honestly hard to be excited about any job anymore since they are all just flavours of each other

Meaningful skill interaction and stats were a good thing even if sometimes they missed the mark (like accuracy was bad but I appreciate they tried something with it even if it didn’t work)

OP: They MIGHT someday make a new DoT Job - some people have argued that was part of their goal with all the pruning of DoTs used by existing Jobs and removing them from SMN entirely - but it's really hard to say since they also gave their reasoning as being opposed to DoTs (I don't remember the exact quote/reference, but it was something about it being more taxing server-side)

So it's hard to see them going back on that SO SOON.

Note the capitalized words. They tend to reconsider or somewhat go back on things over time. The game's systems/combat has changed over time. ARR/HW, SB, and ShB/EW have all had somewhat different encounter designs, mechanics, and Job designs, with some Jobs getting complete reworks if they were incompatible with the "new" model (SEE: BRD going into SB, SCH and MCH going into ShB, MNK and NIN in ShB, SMN going into EW, PLD in EW, etc; AST in basically every expansion, sometimes in the middle of them...)

So it's possible in 7.0, they decide to move back away from the 2 min business and go back towards the SB direction (which I would love; imo, that was the sweet spot/golden era in terms of Job designs, if not balance), which WOULD then allow for a more DoT focused Job. Though even if they DO go more in the SB direction, it doesn't guarantee one. And we aren't even guaranteed that direction, it's just kind of my personal hope that is maybe shared by others, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean chain exists

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Let's be real here: That's just because the Devs haven't figured out how to make a party buff that boosts Crit by 5%, but only crit CHANCE not crit DAMAGE (like a straight buff to the crit stat overall would do). As soon as they figure that out, Chain Strategem will become like Divination.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Ain't even just DoTs, all of the things that make RPGs what they are have been lost over time. Resistances, elements, debuffs, even stats dont really matter outside of week 1 savage and maybe ultimates. I hear people talk about old abilities and they sound so much more interesting than what we have now. All skills are losing their flavour over time, I've noticed it and I've only been around for one expansion. God knows how people who've been around since ARR feel

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I mean, it's not all bad, nor unique to FFXIV. WoW's been around a long time, and seen the same thing, too. They've gone through something like 4 (maybe 5, I haven't played in 2 expansions and likely won't again) rounds of pruning abilities, and the only really out of the box abilities that still exist are because they're (a) completely useless in combat and (b) so iconic it would hurt too much to remove them (e.g. Shaman Farsight; and I think even that was nerfed)

It seems to be happening in every MMO, and in RPGs more generally (and gaming even more generally) as focus shifts over time away from RP and flavor and more to everything being in service to combat, with social type abilities being relegated to emotes instead. Like FFXIV's Performance is cool, but in some old games like Star Wars Galaxies, you could actually have people perform that buffed people, and likewise Bards in Everquest. I don't know if "dumbing down" is the right term, but "the dumbing down" of MMOs, RPGs, gaming, and society/entertainment in general just seems to be the way of the future. (I personally hope it's not, but...we live in a world that likes instant gratification, mobile games, etc etc...)

I've been playing since...2.3 or so? Whatever patch was the one before NIN. Most of the changes were so gradual over time, it wasn't super noticeable, but when I compare now to then directly, it is kind of crazy.

Cross-class skills where you had to level other classes to get them (e.g. leveling THM to get Swiftcast) - or even just leveling one class to 30 and another to 15 in order to even get the Jobs unlocked (and how that limited what Cross-class stuff you could equip) is so lost now.

Not so much elemental resistances, though - that was never really used at all in 2.0.

FFXI (which FFXIV 1.0 was strongly based on) is still in operation, though, and I hear does a lot of that stuff. But it's too hard for me to get into considering the full price sub and that everyone just says level with Trusts - which defeats the point of a group-focused old school MMO experience to me, honestly...

Nothing I want to add to the conversation, other than clearing up something...

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Let's be real here: That's just because the Devs haven't figured out how to make a party buff that boosts Crit by 5%, but only crit CHANCE not crit DAMAGE (like a straight buff to the crit stat overall would do). As soon as they figure that out, Chain Strategem will become like Divination.

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This already exists. Three times in the current version of the game, actually.

https://i.ibb.co/wwcwLBf/image.png
https://i.ibb.co/ws4Nwbb/image.png
https://i.ibb.co/zxs9dhs/image.png

In fact, we had buffs like Straight Shot granting +10% crit rate while maintained for 30 seconds, which got removed though.

So no, Chain Stratagem will not turn into a "crit rate version of Divination" just for being a debuff.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

This already exists. Three times in the current version of the game, actually.


In fact, we had buffs like Straight Shot granting +10% crit rate while maintained for 30 seconds, which got removed though.

So no, Chain Stratagem will not turn into a "crit rate version of Divination" just for being a debuff.

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Not exactly sure where he was going with that either, these buffs have always only increased critical hit CHANCE, never critical hit damage. That was exactly the reason why they reworked guaranteed critical/direct hit abilities to gain bonus damage under these buffs, because things like Battle Litany or Battle Voice did literally nothing for Warrior before.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Picking up classes like condi Scourge in GW2 reminded me once again that the lack of playstyles and player expression with jobs in XIV is shocking. No other playstyle except burst DPS isn't allowed to exist because they simply don't want to bother balancing anything else, as we see with PLD's changes in patch 6.21 frontloading more potency into its magic phase. I can only assume the 6.3 rework will follow suit.

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they used to exist and were most prevalent in HW. they really started to homogenize in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

OP: They MIGHT someday make a new DoT Job - some people have argued that was part of their goal with all the pruning of DoTs used by existing Jobs and removing them from SMN entirely - but it's really hard to say since they also gave their reasoning as being opposed to DoTs (I don't remember the exact quote/reference, but it was something about it being more taxing server-side)

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I'm pretty sure I've seen the same thing, but a bit of Googling ain't giving me any results. Either way, I see the following problems with DoT Mages:

1. Too taxing server-side apparently
2. There is a hard cap to how many debuffs an enemy can have. While Roulette content isn't going to hit the hard cap of 60 debuffs, it's likely it will be hit in Hunt Trains. Most people would consider Hunt Trains a big ol' "who gives a shit", but SE would probably consider it a failure if a DoT Mage couldn't properly participate in a piece of content
3. There is a visibility issue since only 30 debuffs can be seen at a time. If you're a DoT Mage then your DoT timers can end up getting hidden which would make it harder to do your Job. This is only likely to happen in Alliance Raids, but again, SE would probably consider it a failure if a DoT Mage couldn't do their Job properly due to a lack of information
4. A DoT Mage would be a sustained DPS Job by nature. Rather than dumping everything into a two minute burst window, they'd be constantly applying and renewing debuffs on a target. Problem is, that kind of gameplay goes against the two minute buff window SE has worked themselves into. All raid buffs are on the two minute window, majority of Jobs are bursting on the two minute window, and there's only what, two sustained DPS Jobs left? Just PLD and BLM now, yeah? And PLD is probably getting shafted into the two minute burst window in 6.3 anyways. Point is, SE wants everything happening in the two minute burst window so it's easier to balance (:rolleyes:), a DoT Mage would fall outside of that design goal
5. SE in general just kinda hates debuffs. SCH and SMN used to be the DoT Mages, but they've lost all that. BRD used to rely on their DoTs for Repertoire procs and a stronger Sidewinder, but that's all gone. NIN lost Shadow Fang, WHM lost Aero III, etc. DoTs are just being culled in general, and I wouldn't be surprised if 7.0 sees BRD down to a single DoT as well

There is a chance SE could rework their system so debuffs aren't taxing on the servers. There is a chance SE could rework their system to increase the debuff cap and make a large amount of debuffs visible. There is a chance SE could shift their Job design away from the two minute burst window and allow for more sustained DPS Jobs. Unfortunately, I don't see any of that happening, and I'll be amazed if they ever make a proper DoT Mage.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

1. There is a visibility issue since only 30 debuffs can be seen at a time. If you're a DoT Mage then your DoT timers can end up getting hidden which would make it harder to do your Job. This is only likely to happen in Alliance Raids, but again, SE would probably consider it a failure if a DoT Mage couldn't do their Job properly due to a lack of information

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I think this is honestly the main reason why they have cut back on DoTs over recent years. Although the hard limit may be higher, it can be very awkward to play a DoT focused job when you can't see your DoTs on the enemy. In an ideal worth, this visual limitation would be resolved, but (to my knowledge) that has yet to happen. I think SE tries to keep things under that visual limit which would only allow for one persistent DoT per job on average for alliance raid.

I'm actually expecting Bard to lose one of its DoTs in the future. Most likely they will lose Venomous Bite, Windbite, and Iron Jaws and will instead have the songs themselves apply a 45s DoT. That might not be so bad as long as they give BRD a way to spread that DoT around, preferably with a targeted AoE that applies a DoT based on the remaining duration of your current song. This would work different from Bane in that it should be possible to apply the DoT to a distant enemy or even new enemies while the boss you initially applied the DoT too can't be targeted.

No idea where you're getting this "too many debuffs" visibility problem, your own afflicted debuffs will always be shown first on your end. Additionally there's even an option in character config you can select that shows only the ailments you put on a target and no one else's.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

No idea where you're getting this "too many debuffs" visibility problem, your own afflicted debuffs will always be shown first on your end. Additionally there's even an option in character config you can select that shows only the ailments you put on a target and no one else's.

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That's not -entirely- true. Bosses have a hard limit of 60 debuffs, but you can only see 30 at a time. If your debuffs get applied after those first 30, it gets hidden in the invisible box of 30 debuffs that don't show up on screen. They may have fixed this, but it was definitely true in late Heavensward, shortly after which they started trimming DoTs. It was very annoying to cast your DoTs on an enemy and not know whether it was there or not, but you could tell it was there if you had any procs based on them (like BLM).

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's not -entirely- true. Bosses have a hard limit of 60 debuffs, but you can only see 30 at a time. If your debuffs get applied after those first 30, it gets hidden in the invisible box of 30 debuffs that don't show up on screen. They may have fixed this, but it was definitely true in late Heavensward, shortly after which they started trimming DoTs. It was very annoying to cast your DoTs on an enemy and not know whether it was there or not, but you could tell it was there if you had any procs based on them (like BLM).

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Regardless even if it is still the case, if that was something SE considered then I doubt they would've given RPR a maintenance debuff skill (especially when it existed as a buff in the game beforehand as Hard Thrust) if they were aware everyone was taking it into Bozja/Zadnor as soon as EW dropped.

I just think its silly for people to imply that there's any engine constraint or technical issue preventing a DoT mage from being in the game when it's really just the development team's own lack of creativity and continuing to drive themselves further into a corner with job design by doubling down on formulaic burst DPS/2 minute meta playstyles.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's not -entirely- true. Bosses have a hard limit of 60 debuffs, but you can only see 30 at a time. If your debuffs get applied after those first 30, it gets hidden in the invisible box of 30 debuffs that don't show up on screen. They may have fixed this, but it was definitely true in late Heavensward, shortly after which they started trimming DoTs. It was very annoying to cast your DoTs on an enemy and not know whether it was there or not, but you could tell it was there if you had any procs based on them (like BLM).

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That was fixed along ago, you will always see your own debuffs (the only exception is applying feint to AV in BA) first on the list and they will be blue while everyone else’s DOT’s will be white, The problem of actual DOT overload still exist but if you can apply a DOT you will always see your own DOT’s

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that SMN stopped being a DoT-based caster this expansion to allow them to release a DoT-based caster next expansion.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Merchant-type ranged dps that DoTs up mobs by charging interest-over-time effects and cashes in those debts for burst.

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Pass me the hopium, Gamer. I want to believe too.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Regardless even if it is still the case, if that was something SE considered then I doubt they would've given RPR a maintenance debuff skill (especially when it existed as a buff in the game beforehand as Hard Thrust) if they were aware everyone was taking it into Bozja/Zadnor as soon as EW dropped.

I just think its silly for people to imply that there's any engine constraint or technical issue preventing a DoT mage from being in the game when it's really just the development team's own lack of creativity and continuing to drive themselves further into a corner with job design by doubling down on formulaic burst DPS/2 minute meta playstyles.

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Yep and if the cap is actually 60 debuffs instead of 48 I'm not seeing the issue in having a DoT class. The cap will never be reached.

And you know if we REALLY want to press this "class can't have too many DoTs" issue then I think a fun mechanic would be that maintaining your 2 dots accrues stacks of that DoT that increases it's damage as they tick and once you reach max stacks you can use a nuke ability to purge your DoTs and do big damage.

I think players as previously mentioned like putting DotS on enemies and slowly watching them melt or in some cases delete weak enemies by bursting them down with oGCDs while the poison finishes them off.

Tridisaster > Bane > Painflare + Ruin 4 spam was pretty nasty. Oh Stormblood SMN how I miss you.

Here's hoping they do indeed remove Energy Drain/Siphon and Fester/Painflare and plop it onto a DoT caster.

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Originally Posted by Realism_Snide

The ones where you watch your opponents die by stacking DoTs on them, or stop them in their tracks or make them more vulnerable with debuffs helpful to the whole party like slows, or lowering the boss' damage and defense. I enjoy managing all of those things, and I love being this annoying thorn in the boss' side that they just can't get rid of, ...

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I will preface this by saying nothing against a DoT job, I would like to see one, I just can't cut out that part without losing context for the rest.

Starting with slow. How would that work? a boss takes longer to cast their actions? How is that going to affect fight balance? If a mechanic has multiple casts, does the slow down mess up debuff timings? It is just something that is going to mess up fight flow and is likely to cause more problems that it solves.

As for a debuff that lowers the bosses damage, I will use HW as an example. WAR's Storm's Path effect was a 10% damage down, PLD had a 10% strength reduction on Rage of Halone (which was in the enmity combo so it was a DPS loss for PLD as well) and DRK had [old] Delirium, which was 10% INT down. Now, Storm's Path and Delirium were both 100% uptime debuffs and, as a result, the Devs mentioned that they had to take into account these debuffs when designing raid damage, however, with the way things were setup, you would have WAR then either PLD/DRK dependant on what the main damage was from the raid (mainly DRK at the time) and, to use something else, you effectively lost some free mitigation and it went against the idea of every job being viable for every encounter. A PLD/DRK combo was going to be inferior to either of them paired with a WAR. You could make it so that all tanks could reduce damage by 10%, however, then comes the point of, well, if you have it up virtually all the time anyway, is there really a point to it? You wouldn't be mitigating anything extra as the devs would just increase the damage to compensate, so it really wouldn't be doing it's job then. Stuck something like that on a DPS, where you could have 100% uptime, and it could either be an amazing job, or terrible and it would all be down to it's damage. You could make it a cooldown so that it isn't a 100% uptime, though Feint and Addle exist.

As for reducing damage, I will make the assumption that it is for all damage (see HW piercing meta for why restricting damage types is not healthy), of which, it would have to be very very low (assuming 100% uptime). If it is more of a debuff during the burst window, that then comes down to encounters where you have to burst down groups of enemies. You can have a debuff that affects the one enemy, or a raid buff that hits everyone and benefits everyone for the whole time. I would say this is one of the contributing factors as to why the piercing/blunt/slashing debuffs were removed.

What you also have to consider is that every job has to be able to clear everything with any (sensible) party composition. With that in mind, I can see a heavy debuff job either being too strong, or too weak, which makes it either mandatory or not desired.

Slow won't work on bosses but it will work on mobs. Just like Stuns, Silences, Deep Freeze, and the rest. Damage Down can be done since Bad Breath exists.

I think a DoT caster should be strong and rival Black Mage.

Blue Mage when allowed into content can clear the content in parties just fine. So the argument of must be good for party content is rather moot.

Only time content isn't cleared is when you are undergeared and not doing meta comp in Savage which most players don't do Savage anyway.

The job class should be about fun. Not about being a spreadsheet minmaxer.

A lot of people find "debuffers" fun as opposed to burst DPS.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Nothing I want to add to the conversation, other than clearing up something...

So no, Chain Stratagem will not turn into a "crit rate version of Divination" just for being a debuff.

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Fair enough. No idea then. Devs work in strange ways.

I never understand the usefullness of dots. Having skills, who are doing dmg without your input is nice. But, wouldnt it be better, when the skill simply is doing the full dmg at once?

Dots are looking so slow. And is anti climaxing, when the enemy is falling down.

A DoT job's appeal, at least for me, lies in the compounded effects of several DoTs at once steadily ticking, making the enemy's health constantly sink rather than taking off bigger chunks with big hits.
The DoTs currently in the game don't feel like that at all, and especially the healer DoTs feel like they're literally only there to provide minor busywork.

The entertainment value would come from optimally refreshing, and watching that steady damage roll in as opposed to alternating between burst and wet noodle.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

I never understand the usefullness of dots. Having skills, who are doing dmg without your input is nice. But, wouldnt it be better, when the skill simply is doing the full dmg at once?

Dots are looking so slow. And is anti climaxing, when the enemy is falling down.

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You can make bursty damage that involves dots and satisfying loops.

Example: A class has 2 dots, one which 15s and one that lasts 30s, casting these dots again extends the duration of these dots up to a maximum of 45s.

This class could then have their "filler" ability deal more damage for each dot being on the enemy, but casting it removes 10s of duration from both dots.

Burst windows could then be created around off global refreshes, off global dot duration spenders, dot freeze windows etc.

Even with a burst focus design you can still create a dot focused class, there’s dot classes that are focused on burst, you focus on stacking up a number of dots and during a burst phase you can either use something that increases that amount of dot damage by a lot, or a skill that does damage based on amount of dots or simply a skill that consumes dots at enough stuck for a high burst dot etc

Many ways to create a dot focused burst class, and we definitely need one

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Originally Posted by Keichi

I never understand the usefullness of dots. Having skills, who are doing dmg without your input is nice. But, wouldnt it be better, when the skill simply is doing the full dmg at once?

Dots are looking so slow. And is anti climaxing, when the enemy is falling down.

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This is true, dots are inherently flawed in most games without additional mechanics to support them, and with additional mechs like making dots pop immediately you just have a burst job with extra steps.

The primary upside is having constant outgoing damage without having to do anything giving you more time to do things like deal with boss mechs or use utility. The best case scenario is having 2-4 enemies on which to maintain dots for a long period of time, that's where dot jobs truly shine, especially if the enemies are not stacked. Unfortunately none of these things are very relevant in FFXIV.

Regardless I still prefer my enemies to slowly rot or bleed to death. Dot jobs can offer a higher skill cap to keep jobs interesting, depending how they're designed. Dots can be interacted with in a lot of ways which technically burst jobs could emulate but it doesn't feel the same, for example having dot ticks proc other abilities or resources means you're kind of gaining things for free and with multiple targets it can get nutty which is super fun imo.

Personal testing has shown BLU could function as a DoT specialist with Primal bursts given that stacking Bristled SoT, Bristled Mustard Bomb(you have just enough time to bristle ONE MB off of the first PS), Bristled Aquabreath is doing 2600-3200 damage every tick and your filler spells do about 2200-2600 when they aren't crits so you have phases where you are doing around 5k damage every GCD for 3-5 GCDs(tested on lvl71 mobs). A bit more with Feather Rain.

If it wasn't for Mustard Bombs Lightheaded requirement from Peripheral Synthesis I could see a BLU DoT build being viable outside of Primal Bursts.

If they removed that prerequisite off of PS then MB could be an amazing attack to use considering bosses are immune to Lightheaded which is factored as a Stun debuff in the debuff table)

I kinda think it should considering you have to do a Omega raid to get those skills.

Hoping the BLU update(whenever it happens) expands on DoTs in some form.

While dots seem interesting... FF14 is not good with dots/debuffs. I'd be neutral on it if it didn't have a glaring issue which I've posted a thread about before.
It'd be another choice for people to choose, but, this issue that shouldn't exist makes it a concern more likely to occur if it does become a thing.

Too many debuffs will prevent anymore debuffs from being applied, easily seen in populated hunts/fates, somewhat uncommon in bozja, shouldn't happen in 8 mans thanks to smn no longer needing dots, and likely to happen in 24 mans depending on the jobs you get. People get screwed over if they're all rprs, or any job that commonly has uptime of debuffs at the boss at any given moment. Some people would not have any effect on 60/120 windows because of the excessive amount of "debuffs" that should've been buffs, i.e. ta and rpr

Then there's too many buffs forcing effects to not apply, which I've rambled before as it shouldn't happen, but can happen in 8 mans coincidentally. In which I lost an entire IR as WAR cause I didn't expect to be overbuffed in zodiark ex.

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Originally Posted by Inanegrain

While dots seem interesting... FF14 is not good with dots/debuffs. I'd be neutral on it if it didn't have a glaring issue which I've posted a thread about before.
It'd be another choice for people to choose, but, this issue that shouldn't exist makes it a concern more likely to occur if it does become a thing.

Too many debuffs will prevent anymore debuffs from being applied, easily seen in populated hunts/fates, somewhat uncommon in bozja, shouldn't happen in 8 mans thanks to smn no longer needing dots, and likely to happen in 24 mans depending on the jobs you get. People get screwed over if they're all rprs, or any job that commonly has uptime of debuffs at the boss at any given moment. Some people would not have any effect on 60/120 windows because of the excessive amount of "debuffs" that should've been buffs, i.e. ta and rpr

Then there's too many buffs forcing effects to not apply, which I've rambled before as it shouldn't happen, but can happen in 8 mans coincidentally. In which I lost an entire IR as WAR cause I didn't expect to be overbuffed in zodiark ex.

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Thanks for posting the same thing other people have, and have discussed potential workarounds (ground targetted aoes like shadowflare, enhancing the fantasy with other actions like old fester, old songs, and old contagion instead of inflating the DoT count excessively, a "pet npc" with appropriate effects/model to convey the thematic fantasy of a given job like rook turret, channelling spells that deal damage over the duration), and reasonings for why it's kind of a cop out anyway (SE already bloating the debuff list with reaper 100% uptime debuff instead of buffing themselves, truly uninteractive DoTs like bowshock, only really becoming an issue in very high playercounts only encountered in hunts, bozja, and eureka).

This is all assuming that it's impossible to raise or work around the debuff and buff caps. While it very well may be, I certainly have no way of knowing, SE solving or removing such a constraint would render such a reason moot entirely.

90% of the time you aren't reaching the 48 debuff limit. And I don't understand why Trick Attack and Death's Design aren't a self buff. Because um they just turned those skills into this?

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Heavy_Thrust

BRD was probably the closest to this in ShB when you had to keep DoTs up to proc your songs

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Originally Posted by Fryfor

You are literally never going to get class based debuffs back that isn't trick attack.

Stop.

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We were literally never going to get male viera
Stop. Oh wait

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Originally Posted by Flana

Nothing quite brings me pleasure like doting up an enemy and watching them slowly die. There's just nothing like it. We need a DoT job, but the direction SE is going I doubt we'll get one. A shame, that's such a fun archtype to fill.

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Me too, I hope one shows up like the way they did Madness Sorcerer in SWTOR

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

We were literally never going to get male viera
Stop. Oh wait

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"Gonna need a sensu for that one"