Why do casuals act as if it's the end of the world when suggesting?

God forbid when you suggest they should make content just a little bit more difficult, you get people that flip out.

Every casual that sees this behave as if their whole world is crumbling and they take that statement and exaggerate it reading it like: "All content needs to be Extreme/Savage Difficulty! Screw all the Casuals! Cater to the small minority! HOO-RAH!"

I mean, just chill. There is just no in between with these people, they just think there is only braindead easy and elite hardcore difficult, nothing in the middle. Dungeons are braindead easy you can clear it with just using your 1-2-3 buttons and a healbot, sure it will take longer but it is still possible.

"Nawt Mah Final Fantasy: Second Life Gaem!"

just remember the devs need to cater to all play styles. There will always be more casual content then higher end stuff because there are more casual players. High end players get extremes savages and ultimate.

Its ok to want more. but i think its better to keep that convo to other like minded players so you or others dont get stressed out over anything that isnt to major of an issue :)

Sounds more like you’re the one who needs to chill if something this incredibly minor is making you upset.

I mean, I would argue that the current raid is a little on the easy side, but that's fine.

For me, the mark of a good fight: I'm going to get hit by new mechanics because I don't know exactly what they're going to do, but after I see them once I've got a pretty good handle on how they work. I might die a few times, but my second or third time in the fight I'll be fine.

-or- if I watch MTQ's guide before, I'll be fine.

And that's the point- by watching a guide players remove the "difficulty" of the fight. If they want to do that to make it easier for themselves, that is fine. There's no need to make the fights harder than that in plain-old-story-mode.

I think the current difficulty of Endwalker's story-trials and dungeon bosses are mostly on point.

Anything Savage/EX, they can make as hard as they want.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I mean, I would argue that the current raid is a little on the easy side, but that's fine.

For me, the mark of a good fight: I'm going to get hit by new mechanics because I don't know exactly what they're going to do, but after I see them once I've got a pretty good handle on how they work. I might die a few times, but my second or third time in the fight I'll be fine.

-or- if I watch MTQ's guide before, I'll be fine.

And that's the point- by watching a guide players remove the "difficulty" of the fight. If they want to do that to make it easier for themselves, that is fine. There's no need to make the fights harder than that in plain-old-story-mode.

I think the current difficulty of Endwalker's story-trials and dungeon bosses are mostly on point.

Anything Savage/EX, they can make as hard as they want.

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The problem is that it all boils down to: Too Easy or Too Hard

There is no in between. Dungeons are so braindead that players don't even need to do the bare minimum to get through it, it gets boring very quickly. Suggesting they should up the difficulty just a little bit (Little Bit being the keyword) won't kill anybody, the skill ceiling is so low it is practically underground. Endwalkers Extremes weren't even that difficult and EX3 was a huge disappointment. Suggesting anything related to anything that will make people have to use their braincells even by a little bit leads to getting dogpiled and having your suggestion twisted and minced to fit their argument to the point that it feels like they are coiling in a fetal position and shouting: "Stopping making everything so difficult, you toxic elitist!".

Playing as a Tank or Healer is so ridiculously boring because everything is so easy that people actually have to come up with their own kind of challenge and you don't get rewarded for it, if people need to artificially make something challenging then there is definitely a problem.

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Originally Posted by Silvarer

Sounds more like you’re the one who needs to chill if something this incredibly minor is making you upset.

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So the OP wanting to have content be slightly more challenging, is a "Minor Thing." Seems to me, you fit the type of casual that the OP is describing, no offense.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

So the OP wanting to have content be slightly more challenging, is a "Minor Thing." Seems to me, you fit the type of casual that the OP is describing, no offense.

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I see the point of my statement went clear over your head.

FFXIV is often described as a "theme park mmo" where you can do what you want. You have people that almost only craft. There is one exception to that rule: the msq. Everyone does it because things are locked behind it. That means even players that don't want to run dungeons or raids (or at least not that many) still need to finish those instances at least once.

The MSQ is there for everyone to play it though. I don't mind if the difficulty of option fights such as ex, savage and ultimates is increased, but tinkering around with the MSQ too much could lead to gatekeeping general gameplay.

I wish they would just give content like Eureka and/or Deep Dungeons some end game incentives as well. something for between casual and hardcore I suppose.

Like, after you're capped(or even during levelling) on elemental level, a new eureka point system unlocks, and from defeating NMs/BA, you get those points, from which you can purchase stuff from a vendor.

So, once a week you can buy a twine, or/and a coating material, along with other legacy or alternate variant glamour gear/parts. The amount needed would obviously require some investment but would give you an alternative or additional path of getting upgrades, while still at least requiring some small effort on your own part. They could even then give players means to exchange the each 4 zone's top NM boss material for bonus points or requirement for some of the special end game materials.

Thus timewise, it would require more than it would for re-clearing savage. And would also give more hardcore savage raiders an additional means of gearing up alt job or their main faster, if they so desire.

Similar thing could be done with Deep Dungeon, simply with last bosses giving some sort of a bonus, or a mat weekly, which together with maybe aethergrips could be exchanged for current tier loot or material, in an additive fashion. Again, giving people in the middle something, and again giving the hardcore more stuff or avenues to gain BIS items, and perhaps finally then, in accordance to the game's own design, make it easier to gear up more than one job in a reasonable fashion.

The problem is if the content is required for the MSQ. Anything that is required for the MSQ needs to be easy because some of the people who play only for the story are not very good and would be unable to progress if it was difficult. They would quit the game instead. Now that we are getting trusts in these dungeons, they are being nerfed a bit more so an AI can do them.

We used to have optional "hard mode" dungeons. There were apparently some very hard ones in ARR, but I didn't know anyone who regarded them as being hard when I started doing them.

A dungeon with multiple difficulty levels would be ideal, so we should wait and see what criterion dungeons are like.

MSQ progress should be gated behind EX trials and savage modes.

I think the answer is to make the MSQ optional so those who can't be bothered sleepwalking through MSQ-difficulty content can just press a button and unlock the optional non-MSQ-difficulty content immediately.

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Originally Posted by HolyReign

So the OP wanting to have content be slightly more challenging, is a "Minor Thing." Seems to me, you fit the type of casual that the OP is describing, no offense.

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You are actually right, he fits perfectly the type of casual the OP is describing. I went on and did some "research" (IYKWIM) on his character and boom, like clockwork.

For me content doesn't have to be hard, it just needs to be fun.
I wish casual content was a bit more engaging and interesting though.
Expert dungeons you can run without a healer, so I run them with friends without one.
Maps too for example, its casual content for everyone, as it should be, but did they have to make it so braindead that literally nothing can kill you unless you actively try?
I'm not asking for 1 shots, but it would be nice if there was actually a hint of danger, but its either indeed braindead or Savage.

It would be nice to see more of an increase in difficulty for the story. Most single player games get harder the further along you go in a story, so why not XIV? It would also help if someone joins later in the games life, and decides after getting close to the current level caps, step into some of the older savage content and not have it unsynced.

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Originally Posted by GhibliTheSW

You are actually right, he fits perfectly the type of casual the OP is describing. I went on and did some "research" (IYKWIM) on his character and boom, like clockwork.

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I see you were incapable of getting the actual point of my statement too. Not surprising really.

But since you seem to know so much about me, care to point out any instance where I’ve ever made any argument for or against the difficulty of the game or complained about things being too hard? I’ll wait.

Actually, I also have to say that your coyness about your “research” is hilarious when it’s blindingly obvious you just went and looked my character up on Lodestone. Is this supposed to be a big secret or something?

Yes, just as those who are content with the current difficulty are seemingly inadequate, wish to backpedal on the ability of everyone else, and scrounge loot whilst not working for it. If you ask me both are equally deluded outlooks to have on the current state of the game and the community therein.

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Originally Posted by Silvarer

I see you were incapable of getting the actual point of my statement too. Not surprising really.

But since you seem to know so much about me, care to point out any instance where I’ve ever made any argument for or against the difficulty of the game or complained about things being too hard? I’ll wait.

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Reading comprehension is a very difficult and intricate task, you know?!?

This player is referring to a particular website that utilizes logs created from a third-party tool. They are also contributory to a large part of the reasons why a lot of 'casual' players are toxic, and equally why certain topics are always met with significant ire.

The point about the easy contents in MSQ is that the devs actually wants the good player to carry the useless player throught it, so they can access the rests of the game. But the good player doesn't want to carry dead weight so they wants the devs to make MSQ contents difficult enough so people actually HAVE to push their buttons to clear it.

There are 2 changes that are really needed on dungeons, reduces the timer, 45minutes should be a max on leveling dungeon, 35 minutes for 90 (cause trust is supposed to take 30min so need a bit of margin.) and give some bosses DPS check. Some player thinks it's fine if dungeon take 90 minutes to clear cause the game allows it.

The fact is, if FFXIV was a SOLO game, it wouldn't be that easy, too many player wouldn't be able to finish ARR if it was a SOLO game cause they are not good enough. The game should have a difficulty on story content that looks like the difficulty of a Final Fantasy games, not a kirby games. (And I mean a difficulty that needs you to understand how the game works and how to play it.)

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Originally Posted by GhibliTheSW

You are actually right, he fits perfectly the type of casual the OP is describing. I went on and did some "research" (IYKWIM) on his character and boom, like clockwork.

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I love it, calling the casuals toxic when they ask the "other side" to cool off a bit, and then stalking them down on FFLogs and whatever.

Also yeah, feel free to pull up mine while you're at it. I suck hard, very new to the Savage game, but at least I don't have to encounter people like you in my wholesome statics.

Cause they know deep down without the insanely strict TOS they’d be vote kicked out of many, MANY more groups. Can’t cut the mustard, don’t join.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

God forbid when you suggest they should make content just a little bit more difficult, you get people that flip out.

Every casual that sees this behave as if their whole world is crumbling and they take that statement and exaggerate it reading it like: "All content needs to be Extreme/Savage Difficulty! Screw all the Casuals! Cater to the small minority! HOO-RAH!"

I mean, just chill. There is just no in between with these people, they just think there is only braindead easy and elite hardcore difficult, nothing in the middle. Dungeons are braindead easy you can clear it with just using your 1-2-3 buttons and a healbot, sure it will take longer but it is still possible.

"Nawt Mah Final Fantasy: Second Life Gaem!"

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My garbage filthy casul take is:

- Thordan was really bad. Thordan EX was great.
- Shinryu was amazing. Shinryu EX was even better. People complained it was too hard for casual players, but it honestly just tested to see if you knew mechanics by now.
- Hades was amazing as well. Hades EX was a bit boring but still good. I didn't see people complain, and I think at this point the dev team had faith in people being able to recognize mechanics and animation tells.
- Endsinger was just bull, Endsinger EX is even worse. The meteors are finnicky as all hell, the timing is too strict and the damage is punishing. I'm sorry for not having fast reflexes to awkward "mechanics", but this thing isn't hard. It's just bull.

The other fights were actually challenging for casual-level players. Endsinger is just fake difficulty because it relies on you having fast reflexes. Not everyone is that quick to process what's going on or judge the limits of an AoE.

It's not that it's hard. Because I understand the mechanic. And I can execute it, most people can. I just don't like it because I'm slow and it requires me to have dumb reflexes and I'm just not the sort of guy to want that sort of impulse. I like mechanical difficulty in other ways, I've played some savage tiers on-content and I enjoyed them. Endsinger is just not fun.

The Omega Raids were fun. The Eden raids teetered on "fun" and "exhausting". Even the current tier only has one fight I don't enjoy, and that's because I'm colourblind, so orange on orange on red on orange isn't particularly indicative for me. But Endsinger? I just can't deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

. I just don't like it because I'm slow and it requires me to have dumb reflexes and I'm just not the sort of guy to want that sort of impulse. I like mechanical difficulty in other ways, I've played some savage tiers on-content and I enjoyed them. Endsinger is just not fun.

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https://i.imgflip.com/6i8705.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

[IMG]img[/IMG]

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idk if we can insert gifs here, but you know the Zootopia sloth meme? That's me.

And even with that sort of reflexes, I can do Savages, Extremes, even Zenos Final just fine.

Endsinger can go suck on a big fat taco for all I care.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

The problem is that it all boils down to: Too Easy or Too Hard

There is no in between.

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That's because you've been playing so long that the in-between is second nature to you. Your perspective on this is completely skewed. The "too hard" for you consists of novel mechanics that you haven't seen for the past 90 levels. By your standard, the entire game past level 50 is "too hard" for new players. With practice, it gradually becomes "in-between," and then eventually it'll become "too easy." That's how it should be, and that's the mark of a properly designed game. What doesn't make sense is for a long-time vet who has mastered the mechanics to insist that they retroactively ratchet up the difficulty on all the content that they mastered long ago so that they can feel a sense of challenge again in content that they've already done hundreds of times and is now completely optional for them.

Many of the posters on these forums are long-time players who have the same skewed perspective that you do, and I'm sure they're going to upvote you. Don't delude yourself into thinking that tens or hundreds of upvotes on a game's forums is in any way a representation of how well your suggestion would be taken by the millions of players who are subbed to this game. Most of the players whose content you're proposing to ruin will never even browse to this page, let alone post on it.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

My garbage filthy casul take is:

- Thordan was really bad. Thordan EX was great.
- Shinryu was amazing. Shinryu EX was even better. People complained it was too hard for casual players, but it honestly just tested to see if you knew mechanics by now.
- Hades was amazing as well. Hades EX was a bit boring but still good. I didn't see people complain, and I think at this point the dev team had faith in people being able to recognize mechanics and animation tells.
- Endsinger was just bull, Endsinger EX is even worse. The meteors are finnicky as all hell, the timing is too strict and the damage is punishing. I'm sorry for not having fast reflexes to awkward "mechanics", but this thing isn't hard. It's just bull.

The other fights were actually challenging for casual-level players. Endsinger is just fake difficulty because it relies on you having fast reflexes. Not everyone is that quick to process what's going on or judge the limits of an AoE.

It's not that it's hard. Because I understand the mechanic. And I can execute it, most people can. I just don't like it because I'm slow and it requires me to have dumb reflexes and I'm just not the sort of guy to want that sort of impulse. I like mechanical difficulty in other ways, I've played some savage tiers on-content and I enjoyed them. Endsinger is just not fun.

The Omega Raids were fun. The Eden raids teetered on "fun" and "exhausting". Even the current tier only has one fight I don't enjoy, and that's because I'm colourblind, so orange on orange on red on orange isn't particularly indicative for me. But Endsinger? I just can't deal with it.

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The things with Endsinger and Endsinger EX are first: Where's the good and unique musics in the fight (essentially the EX but even the normal have less time for the FIGHT UNIQUE MUSIC) ?, second: the whole planet mechs is just annoying, not difficult, just annoying, if the red weren't instadeath on EX, people would simply ignore it..., third: The EX have less phase than normal ? How is that suppose to please the playerbase ? Wasn't the wandering Minstrel suppose to imagine the fight if Meteion have found ONE more dead civilization so why do we have less phase ? Shinryu and Hades had special phase for ex, that's just disappointing...

I would had that, Zordiark EX without the instadeath on the meteor have story difficulty(That fight is a joke.).

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

That's because you've been playing so long that the in-between is second nature to you. Your perspective on this is completely skewed. The "too hard" for you consists of novel mechanics that you haven't seen for the past 90 levels. By your standard, the entire game past level 50 is "too hard" for new players. With practice, it gradually becomes "in-between," and then eventually it'll become "too easy." That's how it should be, and that's the mark of a properly designed game. What doesn't make sense is for a long-time vet who has mastered the mechanics to insist that they retroactively ratchet up the difficulty on all the content that they mastered long ago so that they can feel a sense of challenge again in content that they've already done hundreds of times and is now completely optional for them.

Many of the posters on these forums are long-time players who have the same skewed perspective that you do, and I'm sure they're going to upvote you. Don't delude yourself into thinking that tens or hundreds of upvotes on a game's forums is in any way a representation of how well your suggestion would be taken by the millions of players who are subbed to this game. Most of the players whose content you're proposing to ruin will never even browse to this page, let alone post on it.

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I assume you would be surprised if the devs would make ARR dungeon back to their originals difficulty. Most players today would be unable to clear Sastasha if it was still the same as the release... And Copperbell mine's was even harder back in the day. You weren't waiting for spriggans to spawn cause you one shotted them in the first boss(the one before 6.1.), they needed 10gcds to die, eachs one of them.

The game is not "too hard" after 50, it's just players that refuse to learn. I once had to deal with a tank that wouldn't mitigate and walk in AoE on Bardam trashs mobs... It was a pain and when he died, he blamed me for my healing instead of thinking about the way he played. (And he was a bit understuff. Not even Shire jewels just the primals one.)

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

This player is referring to a particular website that utilizes logs created from a third-party tool. They are also contributory to a large part of the reasons why a lot of 'casual' players are toxic, and equally why certain topics are always met with significant ire.

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Lol, I actually completely forgot about that site even though I’ve been there myself before. Thanks for the correction there.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

I think the answer is to make the MSQ optional so those who can't be bothered sleepwalking through MSQ-difficulty content can just press a button and unlock the optional non-MSQ-difficulty content immediately.

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The MSQ is designed specifically for new players. The MSQ roulette is designed to encourage old players to help new players. It was never intended to provide a challenge. The only reason you sleepwalked through the MSQ was that the seven other players in your group had been doing it day in and day out. They've already revamped the MSQ in such a way that no one is sleepwalking through it. The mechanics are telegraphed and easy to manage for players like me, but I see new players eating attacks left and right all the time.

You're completely ignoring is that fact that this entire game is optional. Following the Blizzard philosophy of taking away casual content bit by bit until the game is left with nothing but hardcore content is a great way to kill the game's momentum and drive players away to other games.

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Originally Posted by Kazelus

I assume you would be surprised if the devs would make ARR dungeon back to their originals difficulty. Most players today would be unable to clear Sastasha if it was still the same as the release... And Copperbell mine's was even harder back in the day.

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This is completely consistent with the point I was making. Mechanics in those dungeons were completely novel to everyone at that point because everyone was new. I don't agree that most players today would be unable to clear Satasha. They might struggle with it their first few times, but after running it a couple of times a week through the roulette, they would adapt, learn and maybe eventually go on to flex on the forums and complain that Satasha is too easy for anyone with half a braincell because 3/4 of the party knows all the mechanics like the back of their hand.

I still see people dying in the leveling roulette all the time. It's not because they're trash, stupid, or lazy players. It's because they don't have enough experience with the mechanics that are killing them. Once you've experienced a given mechanic enough, you don't even think about it anymore. You see the tell and instinctively move. At that point it seems easy, and you eventually forget the times you died to it when you were starting out.

I really struggle with a lot of the "easy" mechanics some of the group content has to offer. Its quite frustrating. Ive been gaming sucesfully for decades, finished all the souls games except Elden Ring (yet) so it's not like Im an idiot, or lazy or slow but I dont seem to get a lot of the mechanics that other players do in higher level content. I am fast, and if I see something coming I can dodge it all day long. But by the time I figure out the tell for a mechanic, it seems I dont get that particular dungeon again for ages, and by then Ive forgotten whats even happening and have to start all over again.

So yes, anything outside of Ex, Savage, or Ultimate being too difficult, can certainly feel like the end of the world and unnecessary. When Yoshi P says that if you want harder content, go play Ultimate, I agree with him.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

God forbid when you suggest they should make content just a little bit more difficult, you get people that flip out.

Every casual that sees this behave as if their whole world is crumbling and they take that statement and exaggerate it reading it like: "All content needs to be Extreme/Savage Difficulty! Screw all the Casuals! Cater to the small minority! HOO-RAH!"

I mean, just chill. There is just no in between with these people, they just think there is only braindead easy and elite hardcore difficult, nothing in the middle. Dungeons are braindead easy you can clear it with just using your 1-2-3 buttons and a healbot, sure it will take longer but it is still possible.

"Nawt Mah Final Fantasy: Second Life Gaem!"

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Personally I found the end bosses of the very first dungeon in EW a little bit challenging and was worried a lot of people might cry it's too difficult. The first trial is also pretty intense too for anyone not able to visualize in 4 dimensions. P3S is far too harsh imo, I haven't to this day found a PF that is able to get beyond the first set of adds and everyone else demands practice from FoF onwards, like how am I supposed to do that when nobody else can get to that stage? The rest of the content though is fairly decent, I think a little of it is braindead and that may be for casual players who just want to chill and don't want to think too hard what to do. Let's not forget this is an MMO that has content of varying degrees of difficulty to cater for different types of players, not the Blade of Souls types who have to muscle memory everything and pre-emptively time each mechanic to the millisecond. If FFXIV went so difficult that every fight was an extreme test of will and reflexes I'd quit it, I don't want a game to stress me out like that.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

This is completely consistent with the point I was making. Mechanics in those dungeons were completely novel to everyone at that point because everyone was new. I don't agree that most players today would be unable to clear Satasha. They might struggle with it their first few times, but after running it a couple of times a week through the roulette, they would adapt, learn and maybe eventually go on to flex on the forums and complain that Satasha is too easy for anyone with half a braincell because 3/4 of the party knows all the mechanics like the back of their hand.

I still see people dying in the leveling roulette all the time. It's not because they're trash, stupid, or lazy players. It's because they don't have enough experience with the mechanics that are killing them. Once you've experienced a given mechanic enough, you don't even think about it anymore. You see the tell and instinctively move. At that point it seems easy, and you eventually forget the times you died to it when you were starting out.

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It wasn't a mechanics difficulty, it was more a number difficulty, you had to actually DPS to beat them that what we are asking for, right now, we have people that don't understand that they need to AOE on packs, if they had struggled on Sastasha and Copperbell because they were swarmed by sahuagin and spriggans perhaps they would understand what the points of AoEing. Healer who would have seen what a tank taking damage means wouldn't be so pressed to spam cure a tank that is not taking damage at all.
And later, they would learn that mechanics are important but they would allready knows the importance of doing their jobs correctly. And we could now have more complex mechanics in dungeon. What was the point of Tank buster telegraph in EW dungeon when they weren't telegraphed before ? EW dungeons are a pain in easyness because the devs thought people would jump right there without doing the previous content ? Cool, now vets are annoyed.

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Originally Posted by Kazelus

I assume you would be surprised if the devs would make ARR dungeon back to their originals difficulty. Most players today would be unable to clear Sastasha if it was still the same as the release... And Copperbell mine's was even harder back in the day. You weren't waiting for spriggans to spawn cause you one shotted them in the first boss(the one before 6.1.), they needed 10gcds to die, eachs one of them.

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This is some "vanilla wow was hard" tier of nostalgia. Nothing in sastasha or copperbell was ever hard. It felt hard because game was new and players were bad. All ARR dungeons up to Cutter's Cry are boring tank and spank fests.

And before you go "b-but the game is easier now", just compare the difficulty between Shiva normal and Zodiark normal. And dare to tell me that shiva is harder or more complex.

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

Personally I found the end bosses of the very first dungeon in EW a little bit challenging and was worried a lot of people might cry it's too difficult. The first trial is also pretty intense too for anyone not able to visualize in 4 dimensions. P3S is far too harsh imo, I haven't to this day found a PF that is able to get beyond the first set of adds and everyone else demands practice from FoF onwards, like how am I supposed to do that when nobody else can get to that stage? The rest of the content though is fairly decent, I think a little of it is braindead and that may be for casual players who just want to chill and don't want to think too hard what to do.

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I'm really bad at visualizing the Zodiark rotational flip, but just like a lot of things in this game, my friends and I found a workaround to help.
It's why even as a casual player I love doing FF14's content. Because even if stuff is challenging and interferes with how you yourself process things, there are ways to figure out a fight.

It was the same with E10S's shadows, it was the same with Zodiark's flippy. I can't tell right from left but I find ways to figure out how to deal with mechanics like that (even if it's just constantly preparing myself by telling to myself which way is which during the fight). And I even managed to help someone clear TEA because their brain doesn't process certain kinds of information while stressed, and she couldn't process numbering of any kind. Something I didn't even conceive. She herself couldn't even do Ridorana's math bit, not because she sucks at math, her brain literally stops seeing "math" as a possibility. Yet she can process shapes. So I made her a diagram to help her process Limit Cut.

It's just these tiny things that sound laughable when you hear it, but actually make all the difference for someone when applied.

...but Endsinger's meteors are just false difficulty relying on either reflexes, timing or the bull**** perception of where an AoE will land because many a times have I thought I was safe only to be literally 1cm off. Or hell, a combination of all three.

You just can't "diagram" your way through that, you can't come up with workarounds. Either you do or you don't. That's not hard. Other fights are hard, but they're doable. That's just disheartening.

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Originally Posted by EriShvakh

This is some "vanilla wow was hard" tier of nostalgia. Nothing in sastasha or copperbell was ever hard. It felt hard because game was new and players were bad. All ARR dungeons up to Cutter's Cry are boring tank and spank fests.

And before you go "b-but the game is easier now", just compare the difficulty between Shiva normal and Zodiark normal. And dare to tell me that shiva is harder or more complex.

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With Shiva you actually have to do your individual mechanics to a degree, albeit a small one, and shiva has the reverse tankbuster thing too. This is not true for Zodiark normal as you can just follow one person with a marker over their head and clear the fight just fine. Do not forget that iLVL bloat is also a factor in things, too.

The "Normal" level content doesn't need to be made more challenging; it's challenging enough for new players or those of us who've been playing a long time but aren't "Highly Skilled Gamers". As Ronduwil said earlier, the game actually does ramp up in difficulty from ARR to EW, it's just that most long time players don't realize it. I'll be frank, I suck at this game compared to upper-intermediate through advanced players. I don't do anything more difficult than non-EX DR content, for frame of reference. However; after playing through ShB and EW after an extended break then going back to ARR-SB content I had previously been highly challenged at, I found it to be a lot easier than before. Mechanics that had in the past caused me significant pain were a great deal easier to handle. Why? Because I'd been forced to improve by going through the more intricate and challenging fights in ShB and EW.

I started playing in 2.3 and remember how difficult a lot of the ARR stuff was for the time. HW ramped that up even more; at first release I think it was probably the highest level of difficulty the game's ever had overall. That didn't go over well with the general player base so it got ratcheted down and the dungeons got streamlined over time to the point we're at today. The state of the game is a direct result of the response of the wider player base. They're not going to suddenly increase the difficulty of Normal content. That's what EX and Savage, this game's "midcore", and Ultimate this game's "hardcore" are for.

Why do the Casuals respond the way they do to posts saying the game's Braindead Sleepwalk Easy and to ratchet the difficulty of all content up?

1- The ease of normal level content is a significant draw for many players; especially given the multiple levels of increasingly difficult content the game offers.

2- We've seen how WoW has changed over the decades as it focused more and more on high-end/very challenging content. It's ruined the general appeal of the game and, let's be candid, encouraged a toxic cesspool of anger and elitism among the people who stuck it out. We left that behind and We. Do. Not. Want. XIV. To. Become. That. It's unfortunate that a large percent of posts like the OP's that could be constructive, start out with aggressive language that's clearly intended to put "Those Filthy Toxic Casuals" down. It's no wonder people get defensive. I'm willing to bet that you would too if approached with a similar attitude.

XIV is so successful in large part because it's accessible and has content that appeals to a wide array of players, from your Normals (me) to the Ultimate raiders.


The overall game's not going to get more difficult going forward; accept that and move on. If it doesn't fill all your needs in a game, I suggest you enjoy XIV for what it is and find a different game to enjoy the more hardcore content you clearly want.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I really struggle with a lot of the "easy" mechanics some of the group content has to offer. Its quite frustrating. Ive been gaming sucesfully for decades, finished all the souls games except Elden Ring (yet) so it's not like Im an idiot, or lazy or slow but I dont seem to get a lot of the mechanics that other players do in higher level content. I am fast, and if I see something coming I can dodge it all day long. But by the time I figure out the tell for a mechanic, it seems I dont get that particular dungeon again for ages, and by then Ive forgotten whats even happening and have to start all over again.

So yes, anything outside of Ex, Savage, or Ultimate being too difficult, can certainly feel like the end of the world and unnecessary. When Yoshi P says that if you want harder content, go play Ultimate, I agree with him.

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Souls games are literally the worst standard on how good of a gamer you are. The games do not have balancing at all. Your build can be as broken as you want it to be.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

With Shiva you actually have to do your individual mechanics to a degree, albeit a small one, and shiva has the reverse tankbuster thing too. This is not true for Zodiark normal as you can just follow one person with a marker over their head and clear the fight just fine. Do not forget that iLVL bloat is also a factor in things, too.

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I am talking about both fights on release. There is no point in talking about current shiva.
There is no individual responsibility outside of walking away if you have aoe marker. Rest is just tank and spank, and her circles can be dodged by following marked player just the same. Zodiark has much more patterns and mechanics, and gives you way less time to react to them compared to anything Shiva does, besides her cone tankbuster.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

FFXIV is often described as a "theme park mmo" where you can do what you want.

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Not to be that guy, but an MMO where you can do what you want would actually be a sandbox MMO. A theme park MMO, like WoW, FFXIV, GW2 is an MMO with pre-built "rides" such as quests, dungeons, raids, and other events designed by the devs for players to experience in a guided manner. In a sandbox MMO, like EVE Online, I can choose to be a bounty hunter and kill players/npcs that are criminals anywhere, anytime without being prompted by a quest or a special event.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Not to be that guy, but an MMO where you can do what you want would actually be a sandbox MMO. A theme park MMO, like WoW, FFXIV, GW2 is an MMO with pre-built "rides" such as quests, dungeons, raids, and other events designed by the devs for players to experience in a guided manner. In a sandbox MMO, like EVE Online, I can choose to be a bounty hunter and kill players/npcs that are criminals anywhere, anytime without being prompted by a quest or a special event.

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Thanks. Learned something new. I knew the term "sandbox game" from single player games but heard the phrase "theme park mmo" as description for FFXIV, followed by statements about the different things you can do and how you don't have to do it all. I kinda got those terms mixed up. So thanks for the heads up.