White Mage Pig ability too OP

Please allow us to break that stupid pig ability with PURIFY. Also allow purify to ACTUALLY give CC immunity afterwards. Whitemage Miracle of Nature NEEDS a nerf badly!!!!

At the very least, change it to a timed debuff that activates the polymorphism effect and make it counterable by guard, like it is for deep sleep.

Here's just a few thoughts, I have yet to see anyone saying balance is perfect- and I have yet to see any perfectly balanced PVP game: While we're at it, let's see, why don't we also nerf warrior's LB because of how it affect my guard- but wait - there are ways to handle that if we're smart.

oh, but samurais are ridiculous if I hit them with chiten up that's just crazy too - but , on the other hand, I don't HAVE to hit them then OR of course i could CC them .. so maybe it ISN't so OP.

Oh, and about that white mage/ what if I silence them , or LOS them? Or focus them. or stun them. No pig, no problem.

So maybe stop jumping to the nerf bat all of the time, where do you stop?

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Originally Posted by Soltari

Please allow us to break that stupid pig ability with PURIFY. Also allow purify to ACTUALLY give CC immunity afterwards. Whitemage Miracle of Nature NEEDS a nerf badly!!!!

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It's fine. Purify *does* give you immunity to CC covered by Purify afterwards, too.

More of an issue with purify immunity and damage snapshotting in kill windows being janky due to how this game seems to handle it, that causes miracle to be frustrating. Not miracle itself necessarily. Those issues just compound to make CC that can’t be reacted to really obnoxious.

I don’t know if this is common knowledge, but damage in PvP appears to snapshot right after the ability is used (rather than when the animation indicates damage is applied), and if you snapshot damage when someone is low enough for it to kill, they die no matter what regardless of what happens on the screen after that. I see it all the time with atonement having a really long animation before the damage tick applies visually. With animation delay + lag, there’s times where I see someone drop (and it gives me kill credit) almost a full second or so after I use atonement, when they’re 10y away from me because I just started walking away knowing the snapshot already killed them, with animation showing they died in guard/with recuperate health/on top of a health kit.

With purify jank on multiple CC being thrown at someone and kill damage snapshotting, miracle not being something you can react to opens up a bigger kill window than people seem to realize, since it’s very common for multiple players in higher ranks to throw CC at someone coming out of a sheep to try to chain and kill. There are odd times where you get sheeped from well above half health and die with no way to react due to a combination of purify jank and damage snapshotting favouring attackers. You shrug and move on because it happens once in a while, maybe think about whether it made sense to position more defensively to mitigate that risk a bit, but it’s certainly not good gameplay.

I don’t know if this calls for a nerf to sheep so much as more emphasis on fixing purify so it doesn’t turn a minor problem into a major one.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

It's fine. Purify *does* give you immunity to CC covered by Purify afterwards, too.

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The WHM Poly ignores all anti-CC effects.

Read Purify and Guard, Miracle of Natures Poly effect is completely immune to CC negation and removal, why?

Because it's not listed on Purify or Guard.

Why it's a favourite of Scripters because it's a free negate anything, including Limit Breaks.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

The WHM Poly ignores all anti-CC effects.

Read Purify and Guard, Miracle of Natures Poly effect is completely immune to CC negation and removal, why?

Because it's not listed on Purify or Guard.

Why it's a favourite of Scripters because it's a free negate anything, including Limit Breaks.

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You CAN actually Guard Miracle of Nature, it's not listed on Guard, but it's listed on Miracle of Nature that it doesn't go through it.

The problem is that most people rely on Purifying a debuff AFTER taking it, not Guarding it pre-emptively. Mainly because Guarding is too obvious so nobody is throwing CC into it, which means Guarding is just wasting 5 seconds while people gear up to kill you when you get out of it.

And what's worse is that if you Purify the Stun coming from Purgation, you're not then protected from Miracle of Nature coming out of that, which allows your ass that just came out of a Stun to be immediately focused down by Seraph Strike + Misery.

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Originally Posted by ReiganCross

You CAN actually Guard Miracle of Nature, it's not listed on Guard, but it's listed on Miracle of Nature that it doesn't go through it.

The problem is that most people rely on Purifying a debuff AFTER taking it, not Guarding it pre-emptively. Mainly because Guarding is too obvious so nobody is throwing CC into it, which means Guarding is just wasting 5 seconds while people gear up to kill you when you get out of it.

And what's worse is that if you Purify the Stun coming from Purgation, you're not then protected from Miracle of Nature coming out of that, which allows your ass that just came out of a Stun to be immediately focused down by Seraph Strike + Misery.

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Tick rate says nope. That's the other problem

So even if you preempt it, you still eat it and lose your Guard for your trouble.

Why I think it needs a similar "prep" timer like deep sleep has, where you get drowsy and can guard to ensure deep sleep doesn't trigger.

Telling people to guard preemptively as a counter to miracle of nature doesn’t make any sense. There’s too many situations where you’re in a moderate danger of getting hit by it if you’re involved enough in the fight to be useful to your team and not griefing them. You can’t just guard just in case all the time since not only are you not doing anything else during guard, in higher ranks randomly wasting your guard puts a giant target on your forehead that says “free easy kill if 3-4 players swap onto me”. Which they will.

Guard a lot of the time is a reactionary measure when you start seeing damage come in or you’re otherwise in danger in a telegraphed way (rooted inside magma ball aoe is a common example) and is only a proactive measure in select cases where you’re very very clearly in danger of getting focused due to positioning/lb/playing aggressively to secure a kill

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Originally Posted by Saucy_Jack

Telling people to guard preemptively as a counter to miracle of nature doesn’t make any sense. -snip- .

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Oh yeah, I'm citing that you CAN Guard against Miracle, I'm not saying that you should somehow learn how to use actual real-life Echo to being able to actually pull it off.

Not only the tick makes it nearly impossible to pull off, which might even end up ghosting your Guard because this game will consider the cooldown pressed even if you didn't get the effect, but you'll also more often than not just... Not get Miracle'd... Because the WHM has more than 2 braincells and can see the huge blue ball that you've become. So he just watches your buff bars, wait for Guard to be over and attacks right there, knowing that you can't Purify anyways, so you're now a free kill.

I just mentioned that the guy above said that Miracle is immune to Guard, and that's wrong. Yeah, bad tick will destroy your guard from Miracle, but the chances are the same that you'll get a good tick and waste the guy's Miracle just as well. It's still not a viable strategy, though, not while Guard functions as it does.

I personally think that you should be able to pop Guard the same way you can pop Purify, straight up out of a CC into Guarded stance. Because few things feel worse in this PvP than Purifying yourself, getting your Resilience, but having to over-lap that Resilience with a Guard because you also need to block damage. Bonus point of Guard Holmgangs you (Can't drop bellow 1HP while inside Guard) which won't save you that often, but can create some interesting situations like preventing DoT deaths. Then again I feel more things should DESTROY your Guard, and things that already break guard should also apply the WAR's Guard-Break debuff. So the Idea would be make Guard BETTER, but also make it more vulnerable to more things, like SAM's LB, MNK's LB, hell maybe even some stuff like GNB's LB could destroy guard and apply Guard-Break. Even some regular hits like MCH's Drill could drop you out of guard instead of damaging you inside of it.

I also believe that not only should Resilience last 10s instead of the current 5, but it should work as a goddamn Fetter Ward so you can use it pre-emptively. Instead of HAVING to clear something with it for it to actually give you your Resilience, otherwise you straight up lose the cooldown into the void.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

The WHM Poly ignores all anti-CC effects.

Read Purify and Guard, Miracle of Natures Poly effect is completely immune to CC negation and removal, why?

Because it's not listed on Purify or Guard.

Why it's a favourite of Scripters because it's a free negate anything, including Limit Breaks.

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Maybe you should read what I wrote? I literally said "covered by Purify." Miracle of Nature is not covered by Purify, so of course it isn't covered by Resilience. Neither is Charm or Hysteria, for that matter.

Guard will block poly just like it blocks most other CC effects (Hysteria and Charm force you to stop guarding, however.)

I really wish people would stop whining about poly and just learn to play better. It's really not an issue unless you're being an idiot. If the WHM hasn't used poly, then you need to play defensively until you force it out. It is not even remotely overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Maybe you should read what I wrote? I literally said "covered by Purify." Miracle of Nature is not covered by Purify, so of course it isn't covered by Resilience. Neither is Charm or Hysteria, for that matter.

Guard will block poly just like it blocks most other CC effects (Hysteria and Charm force you to stop guarding, however.)

I really wish people would stop whining about poly and just learn to play better. It's really not an issue unless you're being an idiot. If the WHM hasn't used poly, then you need to play defensively until you force it out. It is not even remotely overpowered.

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https://i.ibb.co/FYy0N62/Screenshot-94.png

https://i.ibb.co/5M6wLqV/Screenshot-95.png

Read the damn tooltips.

stop spreading Disinformation and pretending it's a L2P issue WHM abuser.

Edit: As for Miracle of Nature will not trigger if you are under the effect of guard

1. Nobody is going to throw it if you have guard already up, they'll wait til it drops
2. If they throw it on tick rate if you try to proactively guard, Poly will still land and you will lose guard for your trouble

Guard is meant to be a proactive counter, but you can't Proactively counter something that is an instant cast and will 9/10 times tick rate favour the Poly because Guard does not trigger instantly but Poly does.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Read the damn tooltips..

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What was wrong in their message? You can't Purify imp and you can't imp a player who has Guard up :p

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Originally Posted by Nanne

What was wrong in their message? You can't Purify imp and you can't imp a player who has Guard up :p

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Nobody is ever going to throw Miracle of nature on someone whom is already in guard, if they do, they won't get very far.

Miracle of nature is also 1 frame to activate
Guard is 2 frames (arm raise, then guard activating)

Guess which one gets the priority if both are used at the same time?
And that's before we even take server tick rate into account.

I'm glad to see people who actually understand where our problem was and explain it to people has no idea or just said git gud!

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Nobody is ever going to throw Miracle of nature on someone whom is already in guard, if they do, they won't get very far.

Miracle of nature is also 1 frame to activate
Guard is 2 frames (arm raise, then guard activating)

Guess which one gets the priority if both are used at the same time?
And that's before we even take server tick rate into account.

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If you're trying to do *anything* reactively in XIV, then you haven't played enough games to realize how much of a waste of effort that is. PvP in XIV is pretty much purely about *predicting* what the enemy will do, because the tickrate prevents you from playing reactively.

If you're having trouble with WHM poly, then I would recommend you spend more time improving your play and less time whining on internet forums. It isn't overpowered or unbalanced in any way, shape, or form. It's never an issue for me in my games, because I learned how to deal with it. Literally the only thing in PvP right now that doesn't have counter-play is MCH's 3% BECAUSE FUCK YOU Chainsaw, but if a MCH is burning Analysis on Chainsaw they're either desperate, trolling, or stupid.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

If you're trying to do *anything* reactively in XIV, then you haven't played enough games to realize how much of a waste of effort that is. PvP in XIV is pretty much purely about *predicting* what the enemy will do, because the tickrate prevents you from playing reactively.

If you're having trouble with WHM poly, then I would recommend you spend more time improving your play and less time whining on internet forums. It isn't overpowered or unbalanced in any way, shape, or form. It's never an issue for me in my games, because I learned how to deal with it. Literally the only thing in PvP right now that doesn't have counter-play is MCH's 3% BECAUSE FUCK YOU Chainsaw, but if a MCH is burning Analysis on Chainsaw they're either desperate, trolling, or stupid.

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Practice to predict to use a two frame cast to stop an instant cast 1 frame ability? You on crack?

Sure you can force it if the WHM overextends, but that's not a predictive read, that's forcing them to play into a forced response, not predictive but predictable.

I pressure the WHM because they overstepped, they don't have LB? They are going to try Natures Miracle to self peel because that's their only answer so I have to guard pretty quickly after jumping on them

Works against bad WHMs all day

But competent WHMs?

They know what you're doing, they won't waste it, they'll expect you to try instantly guard after jumping on them so they'll try to peel by walking toward their team instead.

Unlucky, your "predict" it strategy doesn't seem to hold up very well does it?

And let me say this one more time since it's clear you're absolutely not getting it.

ONE Frame Instant Cast
TWO Frame wind up

They can cast it as soon as they see your arms going up and still land it.

You're the type of person that keeps trying to spam throw against someone who light punches you every time you try in a fighting game.

A One Frame Beats a Two Frame every single time

And that's even in games where Netcode is optimized for live input play to be as responsive as possible.

increase to 30 seconds should be enough imo. WHM is strong but honestly its only getting carried by the range of its LB, which is up every min.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Unlucky, your "predict" it strategy doesn't seem to hold up very well does it?

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I'm at like 60% win rate with over 300 wins. There's a lot of WHM players. I'd say my "strategy" of "don't play like an idiot if you know poly hasn't been cast" works pretty well.

Maybe you should give it a try.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

increase to 30 seconds should be enough imo. WHM is strong but honestly its only getting carried by the range of its LB, which is up every min.

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WHM is already borderline underpowered at this point after the uncalled for nerfs. It doesn't need more nerfs. If anything, the nerf to Misery needs to be reverted and the unneeded buffs to SCH and AST reverted. WHM is pretty much garbage against skilled opponents, and in the context of an organized team environment, the force multipliers provided by SCH and AST are going to be *way* more valuable. If you want someone that can do some decent damage while having some healing skills, then you pick SGE.

Literally the only things WHM has that are any good at this point are sheep and LB, and LB is mitigated by people not stacking up like morons. Sheep is really good, but it's not better than the combined non-LB kits of SCH, AST, or SGE. AST's bind on double Gravity is available every 15 sec and will result in just as many kills. Being unable to get away from incoming damage is what kills people, more than anything else. Bind is really, really good.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I'm at like 60% win rate with over 300 wins. There's a lot of WHM players. I'd say my "strategy" of "don't play like an idiot if you know poly hasn't been cast" works pretty well.

Maybe you should give it a try.

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Or maybe, just maybe, making the ability two frames instead of one frame would actually make it fair?

The ability is overpowered, everyone knows it, several of the top 100 of which you are not are on record as saying it.

But you don't think it being one frame when every single hard CC with the exception of it is has a balancing factor to it such as travel time (NIN stun, BRD Silence, WAR Holmgang) an animation lock (WAR stun, DNC charm, RPR horror) extremely short range (SAM stun) or a delayed effect (BLM Deep Sleep and Deep Freeze) or two frames (RDM Silence, DRK pull, MCH knockback, SMN heavy) is a little bit imbalanced?

I think I will take my own experience and their word for it over someone that clearly is arguing on false pretences because they want to keep abusing it.

It's why you have not listed any "so called" Strategy that actually gets around a WHM that knows what they're doing with it

Why?

Because like everyone else, you don't actually have one, apart from hoping you got matched with half decent team mates that will collapse and peel for you

Which isn't even remotely showing how the ability is balanced, it's showing that it's not balanced.

There's a damn good reason WHM is the most played healer job and in just about every single match and it has absolutely nothing to do with it being "balanced" and you damn well know it. So cut the crap, just admit you don't want it balanced instead of providing absolutely no reasoned evidence or argument as to how it is.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

There's a damn good reason WHM is the most played healer job and in just about every single match

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WHM has been one of the go to starter healers so it has been the most popular/common healer since the beginning. Also since the latest PvP changes I have been seeing less and less WHM and AST has become the go to best healer for ranked CC :p WHM doesn't do much outside imp and LB and players have started to spread around so WHM LB loses a lot of impact

Tbh there is just too many shitty WHM that surfed the OP wave and now complain that they are worthless it will be absolutely the same when NIN DRG and RDM get their respective nerf

Overall I think the WHM right now is fine I don't think that polymorph should be affected by the immunity buff it should just be breakable. In higher elo games every game starts with engage into polymorph burst and it's become very boring

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Or maybe, just maybe, making the ability two frames instead of one frame would actually make it fair?

The ability is overpowered, everyone knows it, several of the top 100 of which you are not are on record as saying it.

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It's already fair. Just because you're bad and don't know how to read the room and determine whether or not it's safe to go into the open or not doesn't make it unfair or broken or overpowered. It just means you're bad and you have some learning to do. There's no shame in being bad. Everyone was bad once. But the good players learn from their mistakes, and when they encounter something they find problematic, they work a way around it. The solution to sheep is "don't put yourself in a situation where sheep will get you killed." It's a 25 sec cooldown. Force the WHM to burn it, and then you're completely free to do whatever you feel like for the next 23 seconds. Keeping track of enemy ability uses and timers is a core, fundamental skill to being good at any kind of RPG-style PvP (which would also include things like MOBAs.) Realistically, it's a core set of skills for a *lot* of competitive games - in arcade shooters you need to keep the respawn timers for medpacks and ammo drops in mind, in RTSes you need to have timings memorized (including common forks and alterations of those timings) so you can predict what your opponent will be building into, etc.

Being in the top 100 doesn't automatically make you skilled. As I've said in other threads, the primary factor in a high win rate is the time of day that you play, more than anything else. Prime time tends to mean a larger pool of players with a smoother skill gradient, while off-hours have a smaller pool that's often heavily segregated by skill level. You are more likely to have balanced teams during prime time than off hours, so therefore you are far more likely to be to gain and maintain a positive score income if you play during those times and *ONLY* during those times. When you see someone with ~200 wins with 5000+ score, that's how they do it. They aren't some magical god gamers, they just only play at specific times of day and days of the week when they know their chances of getting a competent team are highest.

And even if they were god gamers, even pro players can have shit takes. Lord knows you'll see tons of that in interviews, even from the champions. WHM isn't overpowered, neither is polymorph. It does no damage, it has a long cooldown, and a short duration. Literally the only thing that makes it any good is the fact that you can't cleanse it and it's not affected by Resilience. I would quite literally rather have AST's kit, including their 16k damage 3 second Bind on a 15 sec cooldown, than WHM's polymorph. You are *vastly* overstating the impact of that ability, much less the class as a whole.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

There's a damn good reason WHM is the most played healer job and in just about every single match and it has absolutely nothing to do with it being "balanced" and you damn well know it. So cut the crap, just admit you don't want it balanced instead of providing absolutely no reasoned evidence or argument as to how it is.

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WHM is the most played healer job because it is the *EASIEST* healer job (just as in PvE), because it is far and away the most iconic FF healer job, and because its kit works extremely well against low skill players. It's *fantastic* for dumpstering low skill players that clump up, don't ever look at the enemy party list (much less know how to read useful information from it), etc.

But high skill players overwhelmingly pick AST, with SGE and SCH tied for a distant second place (basically the only reason to play SCH or SGE is so that you can potentially get an AST on the team too.) Hell, when I'm actually interested in pushing rank and trying to rack up wins, I switch from SCH to AST too. If there's any healer that's OP right now, it's fucking AST. 12k 20yd AOE Macrocosmos on 30 sec cd and 16k AOE double Gravity with Heavy and Bind on 15 sec cd, but tell me again how broken Miracle of Nature is.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I'm at like 60% win rate with over 300 wins.

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Yeah, sure, 300+ wins with a 60% win rate but not top 100. The math totally checks out lol.

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Originally Posted by aeoncs

Yeah, sure, 300+ wins with a 60% win rate but not top 100. The math totally checks out lol.

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He's trying his hardest to reach, he's really really trying. I commend his efforts at putting up an attempt to defend his favourite job, even going as far as trying to claim AST/SCH are more broken they're not.

"But it's the easiest job"

Nope it's the most abuseable job, see every frontline with WHM laser spam

See every CC match with WHM being the typical deciding factor.

Pulls out a whole wall of BS to defend adding a single animation frame to the cast of Natures Miracle so that it isn't BS. .

Not making it purifiable, just a single frame so it isn't so braindead and abuseable.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

It's already fair. Just because you're bad and don't know how to read the room and determine whether or not it's safe to go into the open or not doesn't make it unfair or broken or overpowered. It just means you're bad and you have some learning to do. There's no shame in being bad. Everyone was bad once. But the good players learn from their mistakes, and when they encounter something they find problematic, they work a way around it. The solution to sheep is "don't put yourself in a situation where sheep will get you killed." It's a 25 sec cooldown. Force the WHM to burn it, and then you're completely free to do whatever you feel like for the next 23 seconds. Keeping track of enemy ability uses and timers is a core, fundamental skill to being good at any kind of RPG-style PvP (which would also include things like MOBAs.) Realistically, it's a core set of skills for a *lot* of competitive games - in arcade shooters you need to keep the respawn timers for medpacks and ammo drops in mind, in RTSes you need to have timings memorized (including common forks and alterations of those timings) so you can predict what your opponent will be building into, etc.

Being in the top 100 doesn't automatically make you skilled. As I've said in other threads, the primary factor in a high win rate is the time of day that you play, more than anything else. Prime time tends to mean a larger pool of players with a smoother skill gradient, while off-hours have a smaller pool that's often heavily segregated by skill level. You are more likely to have balanced teams during prime time than off hours, so therefore you are far more likely to be to gain and maintain a positive score income if you play during those times and *ONLY* during those times. When you see someone with ~200 wins with 5000+ score, that's how they do it. They aren't some magical god gamers, they just only play at specific times of day and days of the week when they know their chances of getting a competent team are highest.

And even if they were god gamers, even pro players can have shit takes. Lord knows you'll see tons of that in interviews, even from the champions. WHM isn't overpowered, neither is polymorph. It does no damage, it has a long cooldown, and a short duration. Literally the only thing that makes it any good is the fact that you can't cleanse it and it's not affected by Resilience. I would quite literally rather have AST's kit, including their 16k damage 3 second Bind on a 15 sec cooldown, than WHM's polymorph. You are *vastly* overstating the impact of that ability, much less the class as a whole.

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Hi Kickrox. You forget to switch account?

Busted.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Hi Kickrox. You forget to switch account?

Busted.

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Nah. I've played with and against that guy, but I'm not him.

Why are you so utterly incapable of admitting you are wrong? It's *okay to be wrong.* It's part of the learning process. The problem is that you are wrong and are absolutely refusing to even entertain the notion that you are, which is holding you back.

It's time to grow up, dude. Put on your big boy pants and just accept that you are wrong about something. Once you do that, you can begin to learn!

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Nah. I've played with and against that guy, but I'm not him.

Why are you so utterly incapable of admitting you are wrong? It's *okay to be wrong.* It's part of the learning process. The problem is that you are wrong and are absolutely refusing to even entertain the notion that you are, which is holding you back.

It's time to grow up, dude. Put on your big boy pants and just accept that you are wrong about something. Once you do that, you can begin to learn!

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1. Not a Boy.

2. Your entire defense is how "you're not wrong" and that everyone else is wrong but you.

You're not Captain America planting yourself beside the River of Truth.

You're in the Nile of Denial.

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Originally Posted by Latarma

Oh, and about that white mage/ what if I silence them , or LOS them? Or focus them. or stun them. No pig, no problem.

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What is always with this dumbass just run away 4Head statements? First of all, a lot of fight area is flat open, you are slowed, you cannot guard or activate def cd, can't heal. Neither can you coordinate a silence into burst with randoms - which believe it or not could also be cleansed by the WHM - and you can't focus them either because they literally
have self heal plus extra heal plus guard.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

1. Not a Boy.

2. Your entire defense is how "you're not wrong" and that everyone else is wrong but you.

You're not Captain America planting yourself beside the River of Truth.

You're in the Nile of Denial.

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Fine, dudette. Whatever. Whatever bits you have is irrelevant to this discussion.

I've literally broken down where you're wrong and explained *why* you're wrong, multiple times now. I'd advise going back and re-reading what I've written to you after you've cooled off a bit. You're the one that's stamping their feet and pitching a hissy fit over being told something you don't like hearing. I know projection is a common fault that people fall victim to, but you should be aware that you're doing it.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

What is always with this dumbass just run away 4Head statements? First of all, a lot of fight area is flat open, you are slowed, you cannot guard or activate def cd, can't heal. Neither can you coordinate a silence into burst with randoms - which believe it or not could also be cleansed by the WHM - and you can't focus them either because they literally
have self heal plus extra heal plus guard.

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Kinda. The most effective way of mitigating sheep is to force it out in a scenario where it won't kill you. Force the WHM to use it to peel, etc. Sheep is very deadly when it's like you say - you get sheeped and then heavied/bound in the open so you can't LOS, etc. The best way to avoid that happening is to not put yourself in a position where it *can* happen. If the enemy team has a WHM and they haven't used sheep yet, you have to be careful when it comes to initiating. Sometimes you can just accept that one of your guys is going to get gibbed, though - if they blow everything to kill one person, it's still entirely possible to win the 4v5 anyway. But that's going to be something you're unlikely to see in disorganized solo queue games.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Kinda. The most effective way of mitigating sheep is to force it out in a scenario where it won't kill you. Force the WHM to use it to peel, etc. Sheep is very deadly when it's like you say - you get sheeped and then heavied/bound in the open so you can't LOS, etc. The best way to avoid that happening is to not put yourself in a position where it *can* happen. If the enemy team has a WHM and they haven't used sheep yet, you have to be careful when it comes to initiating. Sometimes you can just accept that one of your guys is going to get gibbed, though - if they blow everything to kill one person, it's still entirely possible to win the 4v5 anyway. But that's going to be something you're unlikely to see in disorganized solo queue games.

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So basically

"You need to force it out of them"

Is your answer?

When an ability has to be forced out early because of the impact that it has on the match, what does that make that ability?

Same reason they cut a second off SAM stun and RDM silence (of which both are Purifiable)

They are extremely high impact for what they do.

An instant one frame CC that locks you out of everything for its duration, is high impact and saying "Force it out early"

Is admitting that because it has such a high impact on the match, you need to get rid of it quickly, why?

Because it's Overpowered.

It really is that simple and balancing it is as simple as adding a single extra frame so you actually can counter it as is intended.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

What is always with this dumbass just run away 4Head statements? First of all, a lot of fight area is flat open, you are slowed, you cannot guard or activate def cd, can't heal. Neither can you coordinate a silence into burst with randoms - which believe it or not could also be cleansed by the WHM - and you can't focus them either because they literally
have self heal plus extra heal plus guard.

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i do see your point and i was replaying to someone else i just forgot to quote them but yes all in all it's a learning curve on what each class can adn can't do

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Here's just a few thoughts, I have yet to see anyone saying balance is perfect- and I have yet to see any perfectly balanced PVP game: While we're at it, let's see, why don't we also nerf warrior's LB because of how it affect my guard- but wait - there are ways to handle that if we're smart.

oh, but samurais are ridiculous if I hit them with chiten up that's just crazy too - but , on the other hand, I don't HAVE to hit them then OR of course i could CC them .. so maybe it ISN't so OP.

Oh, and about that white mage/ what if I silence them , or LOS them? Or focus them. or stun them. No pig, no problem.

So maybe stop jumping to the nerf bat all of the time, where do you stop?

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you make vailed points yes but as dragoon i have no cc abilities or silence skill, sould the game give me to be fair so i can do that to mages or no?

To add as to why I don't understand why he continues to push back against a Frame being added.

1 Frame = 1/60th of a second, 16.67 milliseconds.

That will change absolutely nothing at the lower tiers of PvP, in the higher tiers it will mean guard can actually be used as a predictive counter as its intended to be as opposed to as it is now where Miracle always has priority due to only being a single frame.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

So basically

"You need to force it out of them"

Is your answer?

When an ability has to be forced out early because of the impact that it has on the match, what does that make that ability?

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The same as pretty much all major abilities. WAR hasn't used Rend? Okay, don't clump up and keep an eye on their positioning. WAR hasn't used Blota? Be aware of their positioning and don't put yourself in a position where you could be yanked into a dogpile. NIN hasn't used both mudras? Be aware they can stun you, don't put yourself in a position where an "unexpected" stun could kill you. AST hasn't used Gravity yet? Be aware you could be rooted and take 16k damage. And on, and on, and on.

This concept isn't even exclusive to XIV. Memorizing what other players can do, and then operating based off that knowledge, is fundamental basic gameplay for a wide variety of competitive games, from XIV to Starcraft to Quake to chess and Magic and poker and so many others.

I really don't understand why you have a problem with it. Is it really just as simple as "this killed me so it's bullshit?" Because your arguments don't have any rational basis to them. Fine, add an extra frame to poly's animation. It won't change anything significant because server tickrate means reactive play is largely impossible in the first place, and you'd still be right back here whining about it because it killed you anyway.

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Originally Posted by Latarma

you make vailed points yes but as dragoon i have no cc abilities or silence skill, sould the game give me to be fair so i can do that to mages or no?

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i don't know, would you like to give up some of your instant skills, or leech skills, or damage increase debuff on your target to get that? Sounds fair to me. Or maybe trade some of your extra debuff removal + buff skills . Must be nice to get a speed boost and the ability to remove bind and heavy, maybe you'd rather get a silence? Whatever you think is fair.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I think it's time for you to step away. You are becoming increasingly irrational and hostile for no reason than because you disagree over something inconsequential.

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Go recheck your posts, you've been nothing but an insultive little sh** the whole time.

And if it was so inconsequential, you would not be blindly defending it.

And I'm beginning to think the reason you are defending it is because of what kind of player a frame data change would affect the most and then it hit me.

Scripters! It would actually break their precious scripts until their sub human script maker fixes it.

So lemme see

60% winrate

Not in the top 100

Claims to be a God at PvP but doesn't know much, if anything about Frame data and how priorities are changed by frame data alteration

Now what kinda people have that kind of winrate but aren't in the top 100?

People that got suspended for Cheating/Win Trading/Scripting!

Now, I'm not going to surmise that's why you're defending it, but that's the only logical conclusion anyone could draw....

Because it'll break your scripts.