Living Dead Change: Instead of Death, make it impose "Weakness"

Instead of killing the Dark Knight, instead just make it impose a special 1 min "Weakness" where their damage dealt is lowered. I say special because if it's literally "weakness" then, if they die while it's up, they will get "Brink of Death".

Lol?



You want to add MORE punishing factors to the WORST invuln skill in the game XD.



Living Dead needs to be LESS PUNISHING to both the DRK and their healers not more punishing.



I'd like to see Living Dead reworked to something like this -

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Living Dead 300 second cooldown

Grants the effect of Living Dead.
When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead.
Living Dead Duration: 10s

While under the effect of Walking Dead, your health cannot be dropped below 1 and you heal for 75% of all damage you deal.

If after 10 seconds 100% of your maximum health is not restored, you will receive a bleed that lasts for 12 seconds totaling the % of health that was not restored.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

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So if you only receive 60% of your health back during Walking Dead, you will receive a bleed that cannot be esuna'd that will deal 40% of your maximum health over 12 seconds (10% per 3 sec (as per the server tick for DoT's))


This will stop a few things

1. Reliance on White Mages
2. Benediction canceling your invulnerability early.


Pro's:

- This will help SGE and SCH, giving them a chance to deal with Walking Dead.
- The DRK is now able to actively contribute to their walking dead healing requirement just by doing their normal damage rotation.
- No longer the only invuln ability in the game that can actually kill you.


I'd also like a Green tick to appear above the DRK's head when the healing requirement is satisfied.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Lol?



You want to add MORE punishing factors to the WORST invuln skill in the game XD.

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I wasn't aware weakness is more punishing than death, lol. DRK is in a bad spot and at least this idea is a stab at fixing it.

It's a small improvement, but a bad idea.

It still makes LD far worse than other invulns and SE would probably think "hey, we fixed it!" and call it a day. It also encourages healers to not even bother burning resources to heal the tank to full.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I wasn't aware weakness is more punishing than death, lol.

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Actually, the OP's idea gives a 1 minute increase to damage taken, which depending on the severity of the debuff could be worse than a Swift-Raise.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Actually, the OP's idea gives a 1 minute increase to damage taken, which depending on the severity of the debuff could be worse than a Swift-Raise.

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Three words:
The
Blackest
Night
:^)

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I wasn't aware weakness is more punishing than death, lol. DRK is in a bad spot and at least this idea is a stab at fixing it.

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Didn't know that "increases damage taken" wasn't punishing, especially to a tank :D

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Instead of killing the Dark Knight, instead just make it impose a special 1 min "Weakness" where their damage received is increased and damage dealt is lowered. I say special because if it's literally "weakness" then, if they die while it's up, they will get "Brink of Death".

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I wonder why PLD can have invuln whenever they want unlike others?

Just thinking of something maybe a bit simple but how about if TBN extended your /healing/ duration of walking dead? To the point if Dark Knight prioritizes survival they could continue to survive, even on their own, out of walking dead - it might just take quite a while then lol. Edit: To be clear not the invulnerability status, just the time you have to be healed before you die from being a zombie lol.

In fact may have it such that a new buff to dark knight that disregards health restored and just gives DRK a flat invulnerability period once the skill is triggered, meanwhile the walking dead debuff now is just doom in essence that has to be healed (such that TBN extends the duration of doom). Then DRK get to enjoy the invulnerability they earned by 'dying' to the full extent even if healed to full health. Duration / cooldown being adjust depending on a few factors.

Also I think the HP bars getting special effects could be good. For Dark Knight the HP might go to a dark gray with cracks in the bar and maybe lightly shake. Small chains around the bar for warrior. Light star effect for GNB (around hp bar). Holy aura for Paladin. In this way with a quick glance healers could assess the DRK still needs healed (or Paladin is going to be a-okay for a little while, etc).

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

I wonder why PLD can have invuln whenever they want unlike others?

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PLD's is most casual friendly / use convenient, but I caution over valuing it compared to a skilled team with a much shorter cooldown. There is some opportunity when you've the right healer oGCDs and anti-tank busters on short coodlown, especially since the duration of all the anti-tank busters were brought inline with each other.

I really want to not see people try and nerf HG just because it appears at face value to be so easy, the other skills can have their moments / values too, that can be superior to HG. With obviously DRK being one of the least friendly to casual environments and open for poor timed moments, but it does come with a unique trigger clause allowing it to activate at the moment you 'die' rather than in advance and tick down the clock earlier than the other job's.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

I wonder why PLD can have invuln whenever they want unlike others?

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To be fair, if any tank is going to have a flat out invuln it should be the job that is THE defensive tank. If you want a real suggestion on how to fix DRK's invuln then you need to see WHAT the class is and go from there. Drk is known for two things, TBN and your shadow clone. Go from there, if you want to double down on TBN then give their invuln some sort of super bubble that scales based on the drk's total HP. If you want to make it spicy then you can focus on the shadow clone and make their invuln create a shadow that tanks for you for the next X seconds while giving the drk a small bubble/defensive buff that ensures that AoEs don't completely wreck them. When the shadow's timer runs out then all hate it generated is transferred back to you.

Considering how endgame revolves around how much DPS you can put out, I think that kind of change would make DRKs cry.

Hallowed Ground doesn't require a heal to full. Hell, the tank is losing zero HP.
Holmgang doesn't require a heal to full.
Superbolide doesn't require a heal to full.

Why does Living Dead require a 100% heal?


I appreciate what SE is trying to do by giving the tanks different flavors of invuln, but they are simply unbalanced. Look at Superbolide vs Holmgang. If a WAR pops Holmgang and his HP doesn't drop to 1 from incoming damage, there's no loss. You do that on Gunbreaker and you essentially get the benefit of the invuln with the guaranteed penalty of your HP going to 1. Living Dead is just broken. However, I suppose is fits DRK well, so that's why they keep it.

Remove death from it entirely

It then becomes then a very unique invuln with a different way it STOPS what would normally be a death blow . It then becomes at least one thing that stands out as being better at than the other tanks , apart from its damage output


oh and remove MP cost from TBN whilst yer at it

If I am understanding it correctly, what they want is for Living Dead to not kill the the DRK when it goes off and the DRK doesn't get healed to full. They want the DRK dying to be replaced with getting a different version of the Weakness debuff you'd get from being raised if you would die from Walking Dead.

Though if Square did do it, there would probably have to be other changes to it as it would kind of just become a worse version of Holmgang. As similarly to it, you can't get taken below 1HP during the Walking Dead debuff, with the difference that you're debuffed if you're not taken to 100% health.

Stop fighting and begging to make Dark Knight the most inconvenience skilled class. It already is like the all loss loss mitig skill class of them all Tanks. It has little to no "plus" to anything he has in it's arsenal, can't self heal for sh*t, can't survive without poping 4 mitigs at once dispersed like a cluedo / rubixcube everywhere on the skill bar, it's like negative tanking skill class with absolutely no plus to it. You really want to add more negatives to it ? You didn't think this through i believe or you are just sadomasochistic.

JUST MAKE LD NOT KILL THE DRK THAT IS ALL. Just stop piling on maluses to hell and back onto this job. It's already a f*cking disaster.

that's just a minute long penalty for pressing the button lol

I believe this is what they call the bargaining stage.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Hallowed Ground doesn't require a heal to full. Hell, the tank is losing zero HP.
Holmgang doesn't require a heal to full.
Superbolide doesn't require a heal to full.

Why does Living Dead require a 100% heal?

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It doesn't. You need to receive healing equal to your total health, not be brought to 100% health. It did originally require you to be healed to 100%, but this was changed after it was determined to be absolutely ridiculous.

The above aside, you do have a point. I mean, GNB's invuln is less trouble than LD, and it requires the Gunbreaker to shoot themselves in the face.

I don't understand the whole idea of "Living Dead has a huge drawback, lets replace the drawback with a slightly less awful drawback." Why does Living Dead need any kind of drawback?

For example:

Living Dead: Grants the effect of Living Dead. When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead.
Living Dead Duration: 10
While under the effect of Walking Dead, you are rendered impervious to most attacks.
Walking Dead Duration: 10

There, no drawback. Increase cooldown to 6 minutes if necessary.

They just need to fix it by making everyone's else die as well then it will be perfect

instead of killing the Dark Knight, they should just make it so its not needlessly punishing for both the tank and their healers.

that would require the devs to actually care about the job though. the fact DRK still can't use Dark Missionary, their raid shield, in two of the three current Ultimate fights is telling. and deeply embarrassing.

They need to reduce the healing requirement. Shield healers can't keep up with it. Make it 50% or maybe even 30% of health to be healed to dispel.

I've used living dead with a sage and survived.

You only need to receive heals equivalent to 100%, not be healed to full. Consider saving abyssal drain, if you're dealing with this in big pulls.

If your healer can't keep up, maybe they shouldn't invest in Direct Hit so much?

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I've used living dead with a sage and survived.

You only need to receive heals equivalent to 100%, not be healed to full. Consider saving abyssal drain, if you're dealing with this in big pulls.

If your healer can't keep up, maybe they shouldn't invest in Direct Hit so much?

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Are you lost or something? Take that tripe back to the Healer board so everyone there can continue destroying your strange claims that Direct Hit melds are causing wipes from a lack of healing.

If you turn it into weakness and not death then healers are not even gonna try to heal you through it ever again.

I would actually pose a different idea to their "tank invul". That when living dead is procs, instead of dying they are set too 100% HP and for 4 seconds any heals they receive hurts them, like a zombie takes damage from healing, and they take 50% less damage for the same 4 second.

Shield healers CAN heal the Walking Dead debuff away, but usually to do so they will need their cooldowns. Cooldowns they likely won't have if shit is already gone bad enough that the tank needs an invuln to survive...

So, instead of the tank dying from having to use Living Dead, just being given the Weakness they would get from a raise and a vulnerability up stack, that would make Living Dead a lot less punishing, also would stop the tank from losing aggro while down.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Are you lost or something? Take that tripe back to the Healer board so everyone there can continue destroying your strange claims that Direct Hit melds are causing wipes from a lack of healing.

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Try arguing the point and not attacking me for my message or leave me be. If you could show actual proof, I would back off, but my daily experience tells me I'm right.

If a healer can't manage to heal through living dead, they're doing something wrong. Every time something bad happens in a dungeon, I look and I see those crappy melds. Occasionally, some people are undergeared or just bad, but it's generally the melds and approach to DPSing.

Meanwhile, I've been mentoring a friend of mine who wanted to give healing a try. He's very fond of sage. It doesn't matter what tank I play, he's able to keep up. I popped Living Dead as a test and all was well. Living Dead is fine as it is. It serves as incentive not to mess things up. These skills are supposed to be for emergency use anyway. Next thing you know, people are going to ask for the doom mechanic to be removed from the game.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Try arguing the point and not attacking me for my message or leave me be. If you could show actual proof, I would back off, but my daily experience tells me I'm right.

If a healer can't manage to heal through living dead, they're doing something wrong. Every time something bad happens in a dungeon, I look and I see those crappy melds. Occasionally, some people are undergeared or just bad, but it's generally the melds and approach to DPSing.

Meanwhile, I've been mentoring a friend of mine who wanted to give healing a try. He's very fond of sage. It doesn't matter what tank I play, he's able to keep up. I popped Living Dead as a test and all was well. Living Dead is fine as it is. It serves as incentive not to mess things up. These skills are supposed to be for emergency use anyway. Next thing you know, people are going to ask for the doom mechanic to be removed from the game.

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Question is: Did Walking Dead activate or not?
Since you'd have to let your friend know that they shouldn't heal you until you are in Walking dead, otherwise living dead is completely wasted.

Every healer can heal through LD. Doesn't mean it doesnt cost them more resources than needed tho.
They have to heal a DRK in Walking dead more than they'd have to if it just didnt go off. Which the healers also can prevent with all their mitigation and such.

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Originally Posted by Cyreil

They need to reduce the healing requirement. Shield healers can't keep up with it. Make it 50% or maybe even 30% of health to be healed to dispel.

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While that would help, I'd much prefer they just scrap the healing requirement altogether. Dark Knight shouldn't be the only tank whose invuln has a massive drawback. It's silly when Holmgang exists and is simply better in every conceivable way. Even Superbolide is better despite the minute longer duration.

My preferred change is making Living Dead freeze your HP upon activation for ten seconds. You can neither be healed nor take damage. So if you pressed it at say, 23%, you will stay at 23% for ten seconds. It's simple, clean and finally puts Living Dead on the same scale as all the other invulns.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I've used living dead with a sage and survived.

You only need to receive heals equivalent to 100%, not be healed to full. Consider saving abyssal drain, if you're dealing with this in big pulls.

If your healer can't keep up, maybe they shouldn't invest in Direct Hit so much?

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Sigh...

You're still on about this tripe? Direct Hit is completely negligible. It has absolutely zero bearing on whether you can heal Living Dead. How much of your actual kit did you use? Because Sage having to heal LD means they dump a massive portion of their resources into one ability. So much in fact it's often better mitigation if LD hadn't been used whatsoever since abilities like Kera and Ixo mitigation effects are entirely wasted whereas they wouldn't be with regular CDs.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

While that would help, I'd much prefer they just scrap the healing requirement altogether. Dark Knight shouldn't be the only tank whose invuln has a massive drawback. It's silly when Holmgang exists and is simply better in every conceivable way. Even Superbolide is better despite the minute longer duration.

My preferred change is making Living Dead freeze your HP upon activation for ten seconds. You can neither be healed nor take damage. So if you pressed it at say, 23%, you will stay at 23% for ten seconds. It's simple, clean and finally puts Living Dead on the same scale as all the other invulns.

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Why does it need to change and what does this really achieve? A healer still needs to do their job at some point. Maybe a tank shouldn't be pulling too much. One or both need to realize when the DPS just can't keep up with wall to wall.

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Sigh...

You're still on about this tripe? Direct Hit is completely negligible. It has absolutely zero bearing on whether you can heal Living Dead. How much of your actual kit did you use? Because Sage having to heal LD means they dump a massive portion of their resources into one ability. So much in fact it's often better mitigation if LD hadn't been used whatsoever since abilities like Kera and Ixo mitigation effects are entirely wasted whereas they wouldn't be with regular CDs.

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I'll be on about it as long as people fail to read what I'm actually saying. You say it has no bearing on whether you can heal living dead, I say it's a reason it has to be used in the first place, but I'm not going to repeat all that here, especially with more childish insults being thrown around (it's sad that's all you have).

As far as the sage question goes, I can't offer an answer as I wasn't the one healing. It's not like we had to take a break or were caught lacking anything. We were in Dead Ends and I popped LD on the second pull and things proceeded smoothly through to the boss.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Try arguing the point and not attacking me for my message or leave me be. If you could show actual proof, I would back off, but my daily experience tells me I'm right.

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Since you're asking, the Balance and Ahk Morning have already assessed the difference. Both Direct Hit and Determination are a 0.1% DPS and DPS/Healing gain, respectively. It takes slightly less Direct Hit to gain a full percentage; 24 points in Shadowbringers compared to 25.3% needed for determination. For the sake of argument, I'll use last expansion since we have that exact data At 720 melded Direct Hit, you gained 3% DPS while you gained 2.85% from Determination. Let's round that up to 3%, and since you mentioned Sage, I'll use Ixochole. If your Ixo healed for 5,000 with zero melds, 3% would make it heal for 5,150. You gained paltry 150 in the best case scenario. That's roughly 0.16% of a Dark Knight's HP at full i600.

Put simply, your Determination melds accomplished nothing. They contributed nothing and in no way helped heal Living Dead once you factor in even using your entire kit would only net you less than 1,000 additional healing. Frankly speaking, the difference between Direct Hit and Determination is negligible. Direct Hit only has a very slightly benefit because Healers don't have any naturally but the gains are small enough you'll hardly notice outside of serious min/maxing. The same logic applies to Determination.

Next time, do your own research before demanding other people provide proof to a system you're arguing against that has been common knowledge for over two years now.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Since you're asking, the Balance and Ahk Morning have already assessed the difference. Both Direct Hit and Determination are a 0.1% DPS and DPS/Healing gain, respectively. It takes slightly less Direct Hit to gain a full percentage; 24 points in Shadowbringers compared to 25.3% needed for determination. For the sake of argument, I'll use last expansion since we have that exact data At 720 melded Direct Hit, you gained 3% DPS while you gained 2.85% from Determination. Let's round that up to 3%, and since you mentioned Sage, I'll use Ixochole. If your Ixo healed for 5,000 with zero melds, 3% would make it heal for 5,150. You gained paltry 150 in the best case scenario. That's roughly 0.16% of a Dark Knight's HP at full i600.

Put simply, your Determination melds accomplished nothing. They contributed nothing and in no way helped heal Living Dead once you factor in even using your entire kit would only net you less than 1,000 additional healing. Frankly speaking, the difference between Direct Hit and Determination is negligible. Direct Hit only has a very slightly benefit because Healers don't have any naturally but the gains are small enough you'll hardly notice outside of serious min/maxing. The same logic applies to Determination.

Next time, do your own research before demanding other people provide proof to a system you're arguing against that has been common knowledge for over two years now.

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I know about this and that's not the point I'm arguing. You've done nothing more than prove you don't care to read or understand a point that's contrary in the slightest.
I'm talking about a mentality and approach to healing that is toxic to the general experience of the game.
Next time read or ask for clarification on a point rather than lobbing insults.

One simple change that could keep the same functionality would be to just increase healing received if LD activates.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Next time, do your own research before demanding other people provide proof to a system you're arguing against that has been common knowledge for over two years now.

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Ignore him, he's a troll with an obsessive vendetta against healers melding DH. He's had the numbers explained to him countless times.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Why does it need to change and what does this really achieve? A healer still needs to do their job at some point. Maybe a tank shouldn't be pulling too much. One or both need to realize when the DPS just can't keep up with wall to wall.

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Balance? Right now healers don't have to touch Warrior, Gunbreaker or Paladin when they invuln. Even if Gunbreakers were to need an immediate heal for an upcoming raid wide, they only need enough to survive the hit. A single Tetra and they're fine. Meanwhile, Dark Knights need their entire HP recovered. It makes Living Dead objectively the worst invuln. This has nothing to do with pull sizes but Living Dead simply being a poorly designed ability.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Ignore him, he's a troll with an obsessive vendetta against healers melding DH. He's had the numbers explained to him countless times.

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It seems so given he's demanding I read when he quite literally ignored everything I said. The irony.

The weakness debuff in the OP would only proc if the Walking Dead debuff isn't cleansed by a 100% heal. The weakness debuff would be similar to the penalty imposed by death (25% damage penalty) but it would only last for 1 min instead of 2 and you wouldn't require a rez and lost 10s of uptime/mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

The weakness debuff in the OP would only proc if the Walking Dead debuff isn't cleansed by a 100% heal. The weakness debuff would be similar to the penalty imposed by death (25% damage penalty) but it would only last for 1 min instead of 2 and you wouldn't require a rez and lost 10s of uptime/mechanics.

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It still unfairly punishes the Dark Knight when no other tank invuln does. Which is the actual problem here. The OP's purposed change barely does anything to address what everyone hates Living Dead. It's a healer resource black hole and Dark Knights get slapped with a massive penalty if they aren't healed. Meanwhile, Holmgang is a shorter CD, longer duration and is on a job that can heal itself. It's simply better in every way.

Ok but at least it won't KILL the Dark Knight, which is harsh.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Ok but at least it won't KILL the Dark Knight, which is harsh.

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A harsh thing no other tank has to deal with. Only DRK. And it serves what purpose exactly? What does such an obnoxious system add to the game other than people being at each other's throats?

They've done an effort to remove synergies between jobs and also elements that required help from other party members, like Berserk's pacification. I don't know why Living Dead still requires intervention from others.

I've never understood why Paladin has an invuln that doesn't touch their health but the others do (or at least Warrior is rooted in place) Paladin's Hallowed Ground sacrifices nothing -- not movement, not health, nothing. Why can't they all be that way?