Paladins issues: Parry rate and MP

My friend and I were testing out paladin today because he just unlocked it.
I told him about how alot of paladins seem to run out of MP rather quick (to which bards need to throw on magi and sanguine rite blah blah)

In addition to ther MP crisis they should have a better parry rate considering their connection to MRD as they get the abiltiy foresight.

we tested foresight and concluded that it doesnt do shit for you

Why?

this is the problem. dont boost block rate give them parrys in addition to blocks.

The parry rate is fine, if you unequip your shield.

This is by design.

You make the choice: parry or block, but never both.

Duuude speaks truth. As long as your shield is present, you do not have a chance to parry.

An old game mechanic that was carried over. Gladiators did not have a passive chance to block before. During this time, you could parry an attack. In order to have a chance at blocking, a Gladiator would have to select the Guard command. During this time, the gladiator could not parry, since they had their shield actively raised. Since most gladiators were constantly hitting guard to keep their shield up anyway, SE made the shield auto-block, but at the cost of reduced block rate. However, since the game things your shield is always out, gladiators do not have a chance to parry unless the shield is removed from the equation.

Battledance Materia and equipment that yield +parry rate will enhance your parry chance ever so slightly.
Likewise for Swiftwall Materia and equipment that yield +block rate.

Also, MP isn't an issue if you're using your gear and skills properly. Cover returns a substantial amount of MP based on how much damage you take from any source, and Outmaneuver combined with Divine Veil nets you a fair MP restore off of physical attacks.

I would personally like to have both parry and shield block, but as it is now, you can't parry with a shield equipped.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The parry rate is fine, if you unequip your shield.

This is by design.

You make the choice: parry or block, but never both.

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Wouldn't it be better to normalize Parry and Block for PLDs, making parries less effective at mitigating damage than 2-hander parries and scale proc rate so that block and parry are cumulative forms of mitigatioin instead of wanting one to proc over the other?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Wouldn't it be better to normalize Parry and Block for PLDs, making parries less effective at mitigating damage than 2-hander parries and scale proc rate so that block and parry are cumulative forms of mitigatioin instead of wanting one to proc over the other?

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Block: Stand still, absorb damage
I want to blatantly place my heavily armored shield between the enemy and myself, so that incoming damage can sometimes be completely prevented, when damaged is absorbed by the shield.

Parry: Deflect damage with quick movement
I want to be free of an encumbering shield so that i can use my weapon to parry, deftly glance away an enemy's strike to reduce their accuracy, and therefore damage.

This combat logic happens in nature. Why would they do it differently in xiv?

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Block: Stand still, absorb damage
I want to blatantly place my heavily armored shield between the enemy and myself, so that incoming damage can sometimes be completely prevented, when damaged is absorbed by the shield.

Parry: Deflect damage with quick movement
I want to be free of an encumbering shield so that i can use my weapon to parry, deftly glance away an enemy's strike to reduce their accuracy, and therefore damage.

This combat logic happens in nature. Why would they do it differently in xiv?

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Your sword arm should be strong enough to parry a blow, even with a shield in the other hand. Specially in a situation where the parry is easier to perform than the block with the shield.

I'll admit I like the tanking model that treats parry, block and evasion as cumulative mitigation tools that are par the course for tanking. To me it just seems that separating parrying from blocking is one of those "for the sake of being different" types of implementation, which I don't really like because if FFXI was any indication, SE is willing to sacrifice functionality for "uniqueness" (which is a big no-no in my book).

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Block: Stand still, absorb damage
I want to blatantly place my heavily armored shield between the enemy and myself, so that incoming damage can sometimes be completely prevented, when damaged is absorbed by the shield.

Parry: Deflect damage with quick movement
I want to be free of an encumbering shield so that i can use my weapon to parry, deftly glance away an enemy's strike to reduce their accuracy, and therefore damage.

This combat logic happens in nature. Why would they do it differently in xiv?

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It really doesn't a blow coming from your shield side or front would be blocked by your shield for it's greater ability to reduce dmg received, while your sword arm would still be able to parry attacks from your sword side and front, a good fighter can easily manage both, and quick/deft and 2 handed heavy weapon don't fit in the same sentence well.

If you tuck behind your shield completely you'd sacrifice the ability to parry, but you'd also be fully behind your shield which would imply a nearly 100% chance to block frontal assaults so parrying would be pointless.

End of it all though, your chances of fully parrying an attack vs. that of getting a shield in the middle shouldn't be so close, w/o buffs shield blocks should happen significantly more often than they do, especially if for some reason having a shield makes my sword arm lame.

Nowhere in the history of sword/shield combat could a shield user not parry, it's really not realistic. It's a flow chart cop out.

Lol who said it made your sword hand lame?

Strength is not the issue here; its agility. You bulk up on armor, youre trading one style of protection for another.

If you want them both at the same time, there should be diminishing returns on both. and at that point, why even bother?

Why "should there be dimishing returns" ?
There's no flaw on equipping a Shield with you sword if you can aford one. In fact, shield is the best part of defense against a close range weapon, not the armor.
The only drawback of the shield is that you have to use short weapon, and, obviously, have a shorter range than foes with 2-handed weapon.

Shield is treated as armor, and at times a blunt weapon, in this game. So if you have one equipped you are still making yourself less agile than if you could dance around the enemy with just a sword or axe or spear.

No, Shield is not an armor, cause it doesn't give defense.
And equipinng one doesn't make you "less agile" by reducing your parry rate, it makes you totally lose the ability of parrying.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

it makes you totally lose the ability of parrying.

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Um, that was my point.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Also, MP isn't an issue if you're using your gear and skills properly. Cover returns a substantial amount of MP based on how much damage you take from any source, and Outmaneuver combined with Divine Veil nets you a fair MP restore off of physical attacks..

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cover fails. becuase it forces you to use your af body. without it your screwed. and to be so reliant on a specific piece of gear is incredibly broken imo. what it should do is give you the mp return regardless of body piece and let the enhance cover effect offer an increased duration or something. that way cover remains usefull regardless of what you equip.

outmanouvere is petty cack for mp even divine vieled vs something that hits hard it gives me barely enough mp to get one succor off which in relation to the damage i took to get that mp is bugger all. if it was a full time stance like rampage it'd be a lot better. at least then it be a somewhat continous mp supply rather than just about giving enough mp for 1 spell a minute.

at best a plds current mp puts it on par with a warriors bloodbath and second wind spammage. for survivability

These midigation controls should NOT be seperate.
You can't tell me that I cant parry someones attack WHILE holding a shield AND even have a chance to evade.
Its completely possible to do all of that realisitcly, and dont tell me you cant, because a human can lift a 2000lbs boulder; crazier shit has happened.

Foresight as a transferable skill should not be useless to be honest.

Paladins can elect to use the following skills:

Heavy Swing
Foresight
Brutal Swing
Bloodbath
Skull Sunder
Provoke
Maim
Overpower

Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism

Now if paladin was allowed to parry, then with foresight they could actually use overpower, which would be nice because it helps grab all of the mobs right away, something small that is making warrior such a good tank right now. (at least to me as a healer)
Other than that cure, raise, and stoneskin are what should be taken

As for MP, I've only seen paladins in parties run out too fast. Since they are the initiator the party usually doesn't expect them to rest for MP, and why should they? How about outmaneuver give MP as well? That way it can actually be useful for White Mage

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

These mitigation controls should NOT be seperate.
You can't tell me that I cant parry someones attack WHILE holding a shield AND even have a chance to evade.
Its completely possible to do all of that realisitcly, and dont tell me you cant, because a human can lift a 2000lbs boulder; crazier shit has happened.

Foresight as a transferable skill should not be useless to be honest.

Paladins can elect to use the following skills:

Heavy Swing
Foresight
Brutal Swing
Bloodbath
Skull Sunder
Provoke
Maim
Overpower

Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism

Now if paladin was allowed to parry, then with foresight they could actually use overpower, which would be nice because it helps grab all of the mobs right away, something small that is making warrior such a good tank right now. (at least to me as a healer)

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Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

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"Miss" is an evasion your right. But it's not going to end up much of a primary for a PLD, the heavy ass gear makes moving quickly a tad difficult.

To say that a one handed weapon can't fully parry a blow doesn't make sense any more than saying that because I've a shield I can't parry at all. Parrying is deflecting the incoming attack it's not the size of the weapon, but rather being able to position it properly to alter the path of the incoming attack. Now the idea of deflecting a g.swd w/ a rapier seems a bit more difficult and certainly shouldn't have a "full" parry rate that matches a g.axe it's alot easier to get the rapier into the position because it's a smaller more agile weapon so "partial" parries should happen more often, but it's still capable of fully deflecting an attack from just about anything.

These are tactics and manuevers that have been being used for centuries, seeing as the real world provided the base model for them look at how they work in the real world everyone. They all go hand in hand, bracing behind a shield so it absorbs the brunt of an attack, knocking another attack slightly off it's mark while sidestepping so that you aren't hit at all and because you aren't trying to absorb the brunt but rather shift where it's headed it does very little damage. Parries work almost perfectly based on the real life model, they just need to be allowed with a shield, like the real life model.

DEX + Block Rate + Parry Rate Materia all rolled onto PLD that could actually parry = worth something.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

To say that a one handed weapon can't fully parry a blow doesn't make sense any more than saying that because I've a shield I can't parry at all. Parrying is deflecting the incoming attack it's not the size of the weapon, but rather being able to position it properly to alter the path of the incoming attack. Now the idea of deflecting a g.swd w/ a rapier seems a bit more difficult and certainly shouldn't have a "full" parry rate that matches a g.axe it's alot easier to get the rapier into the position because it's a smaller more agile weapon so "partial" parries should happen more often, but it's still capable of fully deflecting an attack from just about anything.

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This is more for gameplay purposes. If you make parries fully mitigate an attack that gives the developers an excuse to make the parry rate stupidly low or floor it by an insane amount like it was in FFXI. I'd rather the mitigation threshold be something like between 20%-80% of the damage mitigated when parrying.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Well, considering dodge seems to be the same as what would count as a "miss" by the mob, PLD would viably be able to block and parry.

Under ideal conditions, their proc rates would be cumulative so that if your block chance is 25% and and your parry chance is 15% you have a total 40% chance of mitigating incoming blows. At the same time, I would ensure parries are not full mitigation when used with a one-handed sword, but instead what are considered partial parries for MRD/WAR; that is to say, a PLD can parry an attack and mitigate the incoming damage by an amount, but never do a full parry that entirely negates that incoming attack.

PLD having the ability to parry does give some of the gear I've seen floating around some use. At the same time, it would also give us more tools to use while tanking (your mentioning stuff like Overpower and Foresight as additional tanking tools). Of course, this creates an issue in gearing: that being that while block rate can be buffed by +block rate and DEX, there's nothing that would increase parry rate on PLD. My fix for this would be to make parry rate and mitigation scale with STR (as opposed to my usual suggestion, which is make block rate scale with STR instead of DEX).

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I agree, it shouldn't be a full parry, I'm not gonna lie a shield can stifle your aim a little bit (300 reference)
So why not, a partial parry is fair enough, and with enough increase your parry rate you can make it a full parry.

I agree with a lot of you saying that parry should be a viable trait that is usable for Gld/Pld even if it is only a partial parry. Like a fair few of you said Block and Parry for dmg mitigation would significantly improve or rather make Pld much more viable as a meat shield to take the brunt of the attacks in a combative situation. But mp is still an issue since outmaneuver doesn't give very great mp return, and cover is nice for mp gain, but its not very versatile with a fair bit of the End game content atm; both raids stick out to me like a sore thumb. The Primals and HNM are definitely viable options to use cover for mp return, but the raids are very limiting that way.

Outmaneuver with mp refresh ability(even if minute)+mp return via incoming attacks would make it viable as a stand alone mp return to keep Pld's mp pool up for longevity purposes/sustainability.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This is more for gameplay purposes. If you make parries fully mitigate an attack that gives the developers an excuse to make the parry rate stupidly low or floor it by an insane amount like it was in FFXI. I'd rather the mitigation threshold be something like between 20%-80% of the damage mitigated when parrying.

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That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

End of the day, having a shield should not remove parries from anyone, any weapon can be used to deflect an attack, how effective is partly a function of the mass of the weapon, but also being able to position the weapon is a factor. The trade is the same as blocks should be, larger=more mitigation but larger means harder to get up in time so lowered rate.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

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The possibility of full mitigation is more powerful than you think. That's largely why I'm in favor of parrying only mitigating some of the damage rather than negating it.

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End of the day, having a shield should not remove parries from anyone, any weapon can be used to deflect an attack, how effective is partly a function of the mass of the weapon, but also being able to position the weapon is a factor. The trade is the same as blocks should be, larger=more mitigation but larger means harder to get up in time so lowered rate.

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I'd rather shields be normalized and avoid the nonsense from FFXI with shield size. What I'd like to see is the devs build on the distinction between PLD/GLA shields and THM/BLM/WHM/CON shields.

Might not be good for PLD more of DRK ability but they should add where you can use a action just like MNK's stance or WAR's Rampage/Berserk mode but PLD Tank mode and Force mode or something where they dump the shield and becomes more of a DD with Parry & dealing more damage - boosts attack but lowers defence + gives MP on specific actions which normally not granting MP's. Kind of like WAR + Rampage + Steel Cyclone

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The possibility of full mitigation is more powerful than you think. That's largely why I'm in favor of parrying only mitigating some of the damage rather than negating it.
I'd rather shields be normalized and avoid the nonsense from FFXI with shield size. What I'd like to see is the devs build on the distinction between PLD/GLA shields and THM/BLM/WHM/CON shields.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

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Seriously, read the whole thing completely. I said exactly what you did.

I think also that what they have with different sized shields providing increased/decreased block rates and decreased/increased damage reduction for smaller/larger shields makes good sense. A smaller shield is less heavy and alot easier to move quickly but the lack of mass means that more of the hit is going to be passed to the wielder, where a 50 lb. tower shield is not moving real fast but it's mass would absorb significantly more of the momentum thus reducing the shock felt by the wielder.

Why make a simpler system that would lead to everyone carrying the exact same shield in the end. What we have now encourages some differences in gearing. Now if you wanted to you could boost your block rate to try to reduce the DoT you take through a hi number of blocks, or you gear to maximize damage reduction through fewer far more potent blocks. Both ways can give the same overall reduction over time but allows people to choose which way to play.

Didn't the Elezan Gladiator in the intro movie parry the Malbro's 2 arms while covering the Murader? She had a shield on, how did she do that? :o

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Didn't the Elezan Gladiator in the intro movie parry the Malbro's 2 arms while covering the Murader? She had a shield on, how did she do that? :o

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She didn't have her guard ability on :p

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Seriously, read the whole thing completely. I said exactly what you did.

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Not really. You said full parries should still be present in the proposed tanking model for PLD. I am arguing that they should not and parries should just be an additional mitigation-type proc that acts cumulative to block chance, as PLD would already gain plenty from being able to parry in the form of Overpower and Foresight.

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Why make a simpler system that would lead to everyone carrying the exact same shield in the end. What we have now encourages some differences in gearing.

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You mean aside from that fact that people at the level cap are already all using the same gear for the most part? It would go with the grain rather than against it.

I'm still confused as to why we can't block and parry at the same time. If nothing else, I'd really like to be able to look at a listing of swords, and not feel the strong desire to punch someone on account of how many of them have +parry (which has no effect unless I feel like giving up a substantial chunk of my abilities and attacks! krtgekjgtjkgejkr :()

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

These midigation controls should NOT be seperate.
You can't tell me that I cant parry someones attack WHILE holding a shield AND even have a chance to evade.
Its completely possible to do all of that realisitcly, and dont tell me you cant, because a human can lift a 2000lbs boulder; crazier shit has happened.

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Realistically, yeah you can do it. It's for the sake of balance I believe. Each of the tank classes (gonna throw PGL in there as an example anyway, you can tank for like 3 seconds) has two damage mitigation moves.

PLD = Block and Evade
WAR = Parry and Evade
MNK = Evade and Parry

To me at least, this makes sense. If Paladin has access to all three, it would throw of the balance. I think what they should do is making blocking actually matter. I would also be okay with Block and Parry instead of Evade.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Realistically, yeah you can do it. It's for the sake of balance I believe. Each of the tank classes (gonna throw PGL in there as an example anyway, you can tank for like 3 seconds) has two damage mitigation moves.

PLD = Block and Evade
WAR = Parry and Evade
MNK = Evade and Parry

To me at least, this makes sense. If Paladin has access to all three, it would throw of the balance. I think what they should do is making blocking actually matter. I would also be okay with Block and Parry instead of Evade.

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True my good man, but WAR and MNK also stand as the highest potential DPS's as well. PLD often isn't considered a DPS even in the slightest sense, and since it's main focus is tanking having the ability to parry would give them at least a significant leg up in the defensive department over other jobs, course that depends how well the shield adjustment in 1.22b is. I think when they initially redesigned shields in 1.19 (or was it 1.20) they were originally hoping they would come out on par with parry damage negation, or at least block far more often to make up for the difference. Of course, what looks good on paper doesn't always pan out in application and Shields as we all know failed miserably.

Anyways, the way things are looking with Shields if they make shields work like a boss in 1.22b, I might care less if we regained the ability to parry or not (though it would be welcomed none the less.)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Not really. You said full parries should still be present in the proposed tanking model for PLD. I am arguing that they should not and parries should just be an additional mitigation-type proc that acts cumulative to block chance, as PLD would already gain plenty from being able to parry in the form of Overpower and Foresight.

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Ok not "exactly" I said partial parries should happen, and full parries should also, but with far less frequency, I also said that they should be impacted by the size/mass of a weapon/shield for both parries and blocks. :When I say should happen I'm talking
20~30% rate for 5~10% reductions
10~20% rate for 10~20% reductions
1~5% rate for 80%+ reductions

where a shield should have more like:
50~60% rate for 20~30% reductions
30~40% rate for 40~50% reductions
20~30% rate for 60~70% reductions
Of course those would be altered by stats/gear/traits/materia but as base rates

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You mean aside from that fact that people at the level cap are already all using the same gear for the most part? It would go with the grain rather than against it.

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People do use the same gear now, for the most part, but it's a lack of options, there aren't 3 sizes of shields for a 50 PLD that provide the kind of flexibility I'm talking about. Having the one with the highest rate/reduction is currently an option, what I'm looking for is 3 sizes where you CAN'T get both at the highest on a single shield.
Small (think buckler diameter no larger than your wrist to elbow) = very high block rate, low reduction;
Med (typical spartan sized round shield, 2~3x the length of wrist to elbow) = well middle of the road for both;
Large(think kite~tower 1/2~3/4 of your total height)= low block rate, maximum reduction;

If all 3 were available people could choose but they aren't not really, right now there's 1 "best" for everything pretty much. It doesn't encourage individual play styles, but rather the all too typical borg drone play style.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Ok not "exactly" I said partial parries should happen, and full parries should also, but with far less frequency, I also said that they should be impacted by the size/mass of a weapon/shield for both parries and blocks. :When I say should happen I'm talking
20~30% rate for 5~10% reductions
10~20% rate for 10~20% reductions
1~5% rate for 80%+ reductions

where a shield should have more like:
50~60% rate for 20~30% reductions
30~40% rate for 40~50% reductions
20~30% rate for 60~70% reductions
Of course those would be altered by stats/gear/traits/materia but as base rates

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I can understand what you're proposing better, though I am still against a full parry (attack is parried, negating that entire attack round) from occurring. I'll agree to disagree. Mitigation is easier to balance around than the chance of fully avoiding enemy attacks.

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People do use the same gear now, for the most part, but it's a lack of options, there aren't 3 sizes of shields for a 50 PLD that provide the kind of flexibility I'm talking about. Having the one with the highest rate/reduction is currently an option, what I'm looking for is 3 sizes where you CAN'T get both at the highest on a single shield.
Small (think buckler diameter no larger than your wrist to elbow) = very high block rate, low reduction;
Med (typical spartan sized round shield, 2~3x the length of wrist to elbow) = well middle of the road for both;
Large(think kite~tower 1/2~3/4 of your total height)= low block rate, maximum reduction;

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It works well on paper, but this fell flat on its face in FFXI. You never used small or medium shields unless you were skilling up shield or could just not equip tower/kite type shields. PLDs in XI got their cake and ate it too in the form of Aegis, which basically bypassed the entire shield design.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I can understand what you're proposing better, though I am still against a full parry (attack is parried, negating that entire attack round) from occurring. I'll agree to disagree. Mitigation is easier to balance around than the chance of fully avoiding enemy attacks.

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Evaded attacks are full mitigation, it doesn't break mechanics unless it's happening entirely too often, if <1% of attacks are 100% parry/block your talking in the course of a 10 min. fight, 600 seconds w/ 3 sec delay 200 AAs, < 2 hits fully mitigated, which is what WAR gets now on ~70% of it's parried attacks 99.99% reductions.
But as you saw, when I talk rates, I don't mean we get 50% rate and 99% reduction across the board.

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It works well on paper, but this fell flat on its face in FFXI. You never used small or medium shields unless you were skilling up shield or could just not equip tower/kite type shields. PLDs in XI got their cake and ate it too in the form of Aegis, which basically bypassed the entire shield design.

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That's exactly my point though isn't it, IF they make the shields/weapons to support playing different ways. In XI they didn't they broke the whole concept, made a single weapon/shield for every class that was end all be all. They removed options and everyone either joined the collective and wore all the same shit or they got called gimp and were kicked from parties and generally ostracized.
My point there is IF the options are present and I CAN gear jobs in a way that they're EQUALLY able to do the job while wearing different gear than the person standing next to me we get back choice. If there's a lg/med/sm shield that serve a purpose to different play styles and work well @lvlcap, if they go and do the same thing and create 1 shield/armor that is just blatantly better than anything else then of course this all goes out the window and we end up wearing all the same crap again.
XI had alot of game breaking, well not breaking, but player choice removing items. To be the "best" you could be you had to have on "this" gear, Aegis was one of those things. I pray that we don't end up with another of those things, but rather that we get 3+ forms of Aegis-grade shield/armor/weapon to suit multiple playstyles, if someone wants to be a hyper block rate shield tank they shouldn't have to play in the same gear w/ the same stats as the hyper dmg reduction low rate tank. They should both be encouraged by having gear options that are rewarding to both styles, not a single shield that takes it all. This obviously goes for tons of other gear as well, and the reason for not gear swapping in combat. 10k people wandering each server wearing or in search of the "best" gear so we're just a pack of clones again, yeah it makes it easier if you only have to design one sword/shield/axe/helm/etc. for the, end but having 5 of each that can be equally useful to different play styles would allow more variety in player styles and choices.

I'm not saying don't make uber EG gear, just saying make more than 1 of each that are equally uber. Unless the goal is to have everyone in the same thing after a couple years.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

That's exactly my point though isn't it, IF they make the shields/weapons to support playing different ways. In XI they didn't they broke the whole concept, made a single weapon/shield for every class that was end all be all.

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They broke it because they needed Aegis to be a special snowflake and because on some level they knew the system for shields didn't work.

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My point there is IF the options are present and I CAN gear jobs in a way that they're EQUALLY able to do the job while wearing different gear than the person standing next to me we get back choice. If there's a lg/med/sm shield that serve a purpose to different play styles and work well @lvlcap, if they go and do the same thing and create 1 shield/armor that is just blatantly better than anything else then of course this all goes out the window and we end up wearing all the same crap again.

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False choice in gearing is no choice at all. I know where you're trying to go with that, because the primal and moogle weapons are trying to go in that direction. I can already see that falling to pieces once the theorycrafters start getting around to parsing DPS and assigning stat values per class and per job.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

They broke it because they needed Aegis to be a special snowflake and because on some level they knew the system for shields didn't work.

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And it was, but it didn't have to be the only thing at the end, that was the flaw.

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False choice in gearing is no choice at all. I know where you're trying to go with that, because the primal and moogle weapons are trying to go in that direction. I can already see that falling to pieces once the theorycrafters start getting around to parsing DPS and assigning stat values per class and per job.

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Ummm I'm one of them, and there is a choice, when it comes to weapons the choice is
1) Hi dmg output low acc, relying on WSs to get most of your DPS
2) Lo dmg output hi acc, relying on AA at a fast rate and hi acc to makeup for less damaging WSs
3) WS dmg focused, acc attk crit rate crit dmg, multi hit WSs and crit WSs
The list is alot longer but end of the day, IF classes and jobs are designed well these options can be viable on every class/job, from a purely mathematical standpoint it's reasonable to say that a person who focuses on acc will hit more often and therefore WS more often offsetting the increased dmg of a person who misses more but hits for more dmg.

False choice is only created if the gear and/or formula aren't properly balanced. In XI I carried different weapons/gear for every job because sometimes the acc wasn't a must and I could bump the dmg, but other times it was a must. Course in XI 60 pieces of gear/job and mid-fight gear swapping made things a little obnoxious, I don't want that back. Just saying that there is choice, so long as there is something that achieves the same effect in a different way. It's when 1 piece is out performing others that the choice fades away and the "elitist" types come out to tell you how bad your gear is.

At any rate I'm fairly certain that this is not something we'll agree on, even if 1+1=2 in math, this is a matter of opinion and mine isn't likely to change, I believe that the dev team CAN accomplish this, I also believe that with enough parses IF the weapons currently labeled "best" will prove to all have advantages and disadvantages that will balance them enough that people WILL be able to use what they like vs. what's "better".

Materia is a wonderful balancing system as well, you want the added WS dmg output, take the hi dmg hi delay weapon, then add materia to your other gear to offset it's weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Duuude speaks truth. As long as your shield is present, you do not have a chance to parry.

An old game mechanic that was carried over. Gladiators did not have a passive chance to block before. During this time, you could parry an attack. In order to have a chance at blocking, a Gladiator would have to select the Guard command. During this time, the gladiator could not parry, since they had their shield actively raised. Since most gladiators were constantly hitting guard to keep their shield up anyway, SE made the shield auto-block, but at the cost of reduced block rate. However, since the game things your shield is always out, gladiators do not have a chance to parry unless the shield is removed from the equation.

Battledance Materia and equipment that yield +parry rate will enhance your parry chance ever so slightly.
Likewise for Swiftwall Materia and equipment that yield +block rate.

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Interesting, if gld had access to greatswords, this could be used to go a more DD route without sacrificing too much defense, could be good for crowd control