Addersgall idea for when you are capped but have no-one to heal

Hey everyone, something I have been thinking about for the last little bit is how to allow Sage to use Addersgall when no-one needs heavy healing. Granted I haven't done any taxing content on it yet but here's some food for thought and I hope a discussion :)

What if we let Eukrasia interact with Druochole and Ixochole? making them heal for roughly 1/2 as much but shielding for 200% of the amount healed? Potency values would of course need to be balanced but by having them be Eukrasia'd then they are technically on the GCD and imo would need to be stronger than their normal counterparts but not so crazy as to make casting them on the GCD as the only option.

What do you all think?

Transform it into the one that you get from breaking the shield.

Broken? Maybe.
Fun? I hope so.

Didn't even think of having the Toxicon procs on there, but that would def make it more fun to cast these ;)

Could be a good way to give something to spend it on, without creating Energy Drain-esque problems that scholar has.

tbh, I don't understand why this isn't a thing. It feels weird to press healing actions just to get MP when no one needs HP in the party.

Which implies then that by design there should be a resource to burn extra stacks. It's akin to when they released SCH without Energy Drain in Shadowbringers and it was a funky few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Could be a good way to give something to spend it on, without creating Energy Drain-esque problems that scholar has.

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What problems? Is it so mindbongingly weird and complicated that spending your resources on *gasp* damage when you don't need to heal?

And we wonder why healers are so braindead to play.

i mean if you dont have anything to heal....... whats the point of shielding then? this would fix nothing

just burn a druochole on a random person if youre about to overcap. I personally think it would be way better if the addersgall timer still progressed at 3 stacks so you didnt have to always be at 2 or less.

An example of what I was thinking about for this is during fights its not uncommon for you to have 20-30 seconds of downtime when you are just doing the dance of the fight with minimal unavoidable damage coming in. During these phases its not difficult to cap out your stacks and this would allow for you to get something out of your resource instead of wasting the heal on someone already at (or near to) full hp. If we could use our charges to give people shields that last for the normal 30s that would give you at least something for the resource instead of overhealing just to keep your MP income going.

Please no Energy Drain for Sage, I don’t want another entire job mechanic to be completely dominated by a single skill. No job should have a mechanic whose sole purpose is ‘if you use me for my intended purpose you are bad at your job’

I mean, there’s a reason people don’t use Aetherflow healing without Recitation to make it free, and it’s not because the abilities are weak lol.
If Sage had an Addersgall dps dump you’d just never see a Sage using the Addersgall heals ever again. I mean, it’s already hard enough to get Scholars to use their massive amounts of free oGCD heals because they just Energy Drain it all away lol. And I mean, why wouldn’t they when there’s so little to heal anyway. I honestly think people would use Recitation with Energy Drain if it was possible for a dps gain.

I really don’t want to see Sage going down the same route. I mean, if we actually had things to heal and there was any actual decision between ‘Energy Drain Equivalent’ and ‘Job Resource’ I could maybe support it. But with current encounter design anything healers have that can be used for dps must be used for dps, because really, what else are you gonna do with it lol.

Making over-capped Addersgall convert into Addersting would be a much better way to deal with the issue. And since Toxicon II is has no MP cost, wouldn’t having more charges of it indirectly increase Sage’s MP recovery if they’re unable to use Addersgall without overhealing?

hmmm, if we allow for the charges over 3 to convert into toxicon then isn't it just another way to have the same e-drain issue go on too? Cause then instead of just using the resource for damage directly then it becomes "don't use this resource cause if you don't touch it you do more aoe damage or can move more"? Don't forget that toxicon has the same potency as dosis, so getting charges of that just make your single target instant cast. To keep from running into e-drain like heartburn we probably need to keep addersgall completely separated from damage (save for maybe having the "if shield breaks gain a toxicon charge" mechanic). :/

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Originally Posted by Alcimus

hmmm, if we allow for the charges over 3 to convert into toxicon then isn't it just another way to have the same e-drain issue go on too? Cause then instead of just using the resource for damage directly then it becomes "don't use this resource cause if you don't touch it you do more aoe damage or can move more"? Don't forget that toxicon has the same potency as dosis, so getting charges of that just make your single target instant cast. To keep from running into e-drain like heartburn we probably need to keep addersgall completely separated from damage (save for maybe having the "if shield breaks gain a toxicon charge" mechanic). :/

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You’re right actually and I’m not sure why I missed that lol. Yeah, if overcapped Addersgall became Addersting it’d mean everyone would have to hold Addersgall forever for the Sting procs so it’s essentially the same issue.

I don’t think that necessarily means that there can’t be some alternative usage for Addersgall to avoid overcapping, just that the ‘Energy Drain’ type model wouldn’t really work, because it ends up forcing players to work around it rather than with it.

Maybe they could make an ability that consumes all Addersgall stacks for some kind of effect similar to Astrodyne, in that the effect differs depending on the number of stacks consumed. Direct MP restoration would allow Sages to recover the MP from those stacks without having to rely on overhealing, but it’s also not very exciting lol. Or maybe Sage could get an Addersgall ability that’s pure utility, like increasing healing intake or reducing damage taken, but then we also already have a load of those baked into the healing lol. But then if it gets a damage related effect, suddenly the Addersgall mechanic becomes entirely directed towards getting that damage boost.

It’s difficult to find a solution that resolves the issue of unused Addersgall without essentially ruining the purpose of the mechanic. But I don’t think that means it can’t be done, just that the answer isn’t clear yet.

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Originally Posted by Connor;5797907 if we actually had things to heal and there was any actual decision between ‘Energy Drain Equivalent’ and ‘Job Resource’ I could maybe support it. But with current encounter design anything healers have that [i

can [/i] be used for dps must be used for dps, because really, what else are you gonna do with it lol.

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Exactly, do what's the issue with burning gall for dps then if we don't need to heal anyway? Besides most players don't even play the role optimally and will overheal anyway.

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Originally Posted by Connor

It’s difficult to find a solution that resolves the issue of unused Addersgall without essentially ruining the purpose of the mechanic. But I don’t think that means it can’t be done, just that the answer isn’t clear yet.

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This is why I was thinking of having the option to shift some of the healing budget for the abilities into a shield, cause that's just preventative healing instead of reactionary. It keeps the damage abilities and healing abilities separate :)

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

Exactly, do what's the issue with burning gall for dps then if we don't need to heal anyway? Besides most players don't even play the role optimally and will overheal anyway.

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While I can kinda agree with the "everyone's a dps" mentality, I still think that each role should have job mechanics that tailor to their role. Tanks have a LOT of mitigation, DPS focus on killing things, and Healers focus on keeping their friends HP above 0. There can be some overlap (like tanks/dps healing) but I don't believe that this cross pollination should come at the cost of what the job should be doing.

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Originally Posted by Connor

You’re right actually and I’m not sure why I missed that lol. Yeah, if overcapped Addersgall became Addersting it’d mean everyone would have to hold Addersgall forever for the Sting procs so it’s essentially the same issue.

I don’t think that necessarily means that there can’t be some alternative usage for Addersgall to avoid overcapping, just that the ‘Energy Drain’ type model wouldn’t really work, because it ends up forcing players to work around it rather than with it.

Maybe they could make an ability that consumes all Addersgall stacks for some kind of effect similar to Astrodyne, in that the effect differs depending on the number of stacks consumed. Direct MP restoration would allow Sages to recover the MP from those stacks without having to rely on overhealing, but it’s also not very exciting lol. Or maybe Sage could get an Addersgall ability that’s pure utility, like increasing healing intake or reducing damage taken, but then we also already have a load of those baked into the healing lol. But then if it gets a damage related effect, suddenly the Addersgall mechanic becomes entirely directed towards getting that damage boost.

It’s difficult to find a solution that resolves the issue of unused Addersgall without essentially ruining the purpose of the mechanic. But I don’t think that means it can’t be done, just that the answer isn’t clear yet.

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What's so complicated? It was LITERALLY marketed as a healer with more damage options. Not just another braindrad WHM clone.

If players play around it to maximize gall dps usage, what the hell is wrong with that? Bad healers will take it off their hotbar and either overheal, or not heal at all anyway. Let people who want to optimize, optimize.

I swear this community will beg for an auto-battler system and still complain it's too difficult.

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Originally Posted by Alcimus

While I can kinda agree with the "everyone's a dps" mentality, I still think that each role should have job mechanics that tailor to their role. Tanks have a LOT of mitigation, DPS focus on killing things, and Healers focus on keeping their friends HP above 0. There can be some overlap (like tanks/dps healing) but I don't believe that this cross pollination should come at the cost of what the job should be doing.

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Just another "healers should be healers LUL" Andy with an argument that's been debunked countless times.

1. This game is designed around having more healing options then you need, resulting in lots of downtime where you're pressing 1. Which is braindead and not fun.
2. Enrages are a thing. Healers are expected to contribute in damage, when playing at a high level. This is true in every RPG.

It's like you don't even PLAY the game.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

What problems? Is it so mindbongingly weird and complicated that spending your resources on *gasp* damage when you don't need to heal?

And we wonder why healers are so braindead to play.

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No, it's just really dumb to make a system where people spend all their resources on damage, and then resent any time they have to hold it for healing instead.

It's also unpleasant to heal with a lot of scholars (and really any coheal that won't stop DPSing when more healing/recovery is needed) because of stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

Just another "healers should be healers LUL" Andy with an argument that's been debunked countless times.

1. This game is designed around having more healing options then you need, resulting in lots of downtime where you're pressing 1. Which is braindead and not fun.
2. Enrages are a thing. Healers are expected to contribute in damage, when playing at a high level. This is true in every RPG.

It's like you don't even PLAY the game.

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Glad we have gotten to personal insults already, wondered how long that would take ;)
I'm wanting to keep the other Addersgall abilities on my hotbar and if we open those up for damage they realistically wont be. The moment something becomes expected is the moment its balanced around, and the moment its balanced around is the moment its required. If we expect the charges to be used for damage, then if you aren't using them for damage you are using them wrong. See Power Drain, if you are using your Aetherflow charges for anything else you are losing damage which is being expected to be there, so your Broil has a lower potency than it would have without it.

If the party survives, then what is the issue here? Besides a lot of healers DON'T play SCH that way or even have ED on their hotbar and will overheal anyway.

Who cares if it's balanced around? If the party isn't dying then again what's the issue if a player is trying to maximize damage? Obviously a smart player wouldn't be doing that if the party is taking a lot of damage and won't survive. There is nothing wrong about spending excess resources during downtime, which is good design in my opinion.

Besides, if your damage output becomes an expectation and you are being excluded or harassed over it, there's a system in place to penalize that so it's a moot point.

SE's intent with addersgall is to dump healing on people. With the grounds that we had to kick and scream until they gave SCH their ED back, I don't see them giving SGE any kind of dump. Besides, what is the point of more healing if there's nothing to heal in the first place? An extra shield isn't going to help with charge overflow, and SE giving them a dump like ED is a vapor dream.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

If the party survives, then what is the issue here? Besides a lot of healers DON'T play SCH that way or even have ED on their hotbar and will overheal anyway.

Who cares if it's balanced around? If the party isn't dying then again what's the issue if a player is trying to maximize damage? Obviously a smart player wouldn't be doing that if the party is taking a lot of damage and won't survive. There is nothing wrong about spending excess resources during downtime, which is good design in my opinion.

Besides, if your damage output becomes an expectation and you are being excluded or harassed over it, there's a system in place to penalize that so it's a moot point.

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Never once has it been an issue to optimize. That's a strawman argument no one is making.

Of course it's good to optimize. Please do optimize and do damage.

But there is a problem at a system design level when a game that emphasizes damage output so much contests DPS resources with healing resources. Scholar has this problem, Sage does not have the problem, and I'd really prefer it not be introduced to sage.

Look at it another way. It doesn't cost a tank anything to pop Rampart or (insert job-flavored 30% mitigation here). And that's a good thing. If it cost DPS for tanks to pop their mitigation, they'd try to avoid that. Well meaning tanks would incorrectly gauge when they could get away with no CDs, and bad tanks just wouldn't care. And of course (as was once the case with the old tank/DPS stances), all tanks would want to be off tanks.

Same thing applies to healers. If you can spend Aetherflow on damage or healing, you'll always want to go for damage and it will feel bad to lose damage for healing. Addersgall doesn't have this problem and doesn't need this problem and sage has excellent damage output anyways.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

If the party survives, then what is the issue here? Besides a lot of healers DON'T play SCH that way or even have ED on their hotbar and will overheal anyway.

Who cares if it's balanced around? If the party isn't dying then again what's the issue if a player is trying to maximize damage? Obviously a smart player wouldn't be doing that if the party is taking a lot of damage and won't survive. There is nothing wrong about spending excess resources during downtime, which is good design in my opinion.

Besides, if your damage output becomes an expectation and you are being excluded or harassed over it, there's a system in place to penalize that so it's a moot point.

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There, we hit the important part, its based on opinion and perception. In your opinion its good to allow the player to have the decision to use their healing resources to deal damage and I would agree except for the perception of the playerbase. In my opinion its a moral hazard to have the cooldown based resources for a healer to be usable for damage, cause then people expect it to be used that way and many will not use their heals because...

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

Enrages are a thing. Healers are expected to contribute in damage, when playing at a high level. This is true in every RPG.

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you are trying to argue both for and against your own arguments

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

No, it's just really dumb to make a system where people spend all their resources on damage, and then resent any time they have to hold it for healing instead.

It's also unpleasant to heal with a lot of scholars (and really any coheal that won't stop DPSing when more healing/recovery is needed) because of stuff like that.

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This. Please keep healing and dps resources separate. I'm not saying a healer shouldn't have a dps rotation with resource management, but surely we can think of a way to have an engaging DPS game without having to tie healing resources into it, right?

Even if you tied Addersgall into Addersting, it wouldn't improve Sages DPS game anyway. Toxikon... isn't that special. You can use it while moving and you can use it as an AoE. It also costs no MP. But beyond that it's still not any different from Dosis spam.

How about instead of trying to figure out how to turn healing into Dosis-while-moving, we look into the fundamental flaw of healers in general, that being a lack of engaging gameplay during downtime. And, to me, there's two ways to tackle that. One, make healing a more active role, more healing required means less downtime to notice how bad dosis spam feels, and would promote cooperation between healers as they share out the workload.

Or, two, give healers some more DPS abilities so that they can have their own rotation to follow during downtime, complete with a DPS resource system. Wouldn't it be more interesting if WHM had several DPS spells, which successful completion of a DPS rotation would generate a Blood Lily? Wouldn't it be more interesting if Sage had more pewpew laser spells that generated Addersting and also had different effects on the Kardia target that wasn't just strictly healing?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

No, it's just really dumb to make a system where people spend all their resources on damage, and then resent any time they have to hold it for healing instead.

It's also unpleasant to heal with a lot of scholars (and really any coheal that won't stop DPSing when more healing/recovery is needed) because of stuff like that.

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This really sums it up better than I could.

Also, an even if we did have an Addersgall dps dump, it would be an oGCD anyway to balance with Energy Drain, so you’d still be spamming Dosis III exactly the same the now. The only difference would be you’d be losing a ton of dps potency every time you hit an Addersgall heal, which would just mean Sages stopped using them. You wouldn’t even be using your Addersgalls for some tactical decision making exercise, you’d be stocking them up to three and blowing them all every 120 seconds during raid buffs.

Even if the situation did call for it, somehow I don’t think many Sages would really stop and say ‘maybe I should use one of these stacks to heal even though it’s going to lower my damage purely because one of the dps decided to mess up’.

Maybe it does make me a ‘I just want to heal!’ Sylphie, honestly I can live with that lol. But, I don’t think any healer job should be punished for having to heal. It just doesn’t make any sense. Give them damage rotations, damage related spells and abilities, interactions between healing and damage. I have no issue with any of that. But mechanics that specifically punish you for using your heals as a healer just doesn’t make any sense to me.

Nobody is saying that healers shouldn’t have more dps options or whatever. But making healer mechanics that are ‘choose between healing and damage’ ends up being purely illusory, because there is no choice. You choose damage or you chose wrong. While something definitely does need to be done about healer downtime, developing mechanics like that isn’t the right way to go about it in my opinion

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

This. Please keep healing and dps resources separate. I'm not saying a healer shouldn't have a dps rotation with resource management, but surely we can think of a way to have an engaging DPS game without having to tie healing resources into it, right?

Even if you tied Addersgall into Addersting, it wouldn't improve Sages DPS game anyway. Toxikon... isn't that special. You can use it while moving and you can use it as an AoE. It also costs no MP. But beyond that it's still not any different from Dosis spam.

How about instead of trying to figure out how to turn healing into Dosis-while-moving, we look into the fundamental flaw of healers in general, that being a lack of engaging gameplay during downtime. And, to me, there's two ways to tackle that. One, make healing a more active role, more healing required means less downtime to notice how bad dosis spam feels, and would promote cooperation between healers as they share out the workload.

Or, two, give healers some more DPS abilities so that they can have their own rotation to follow during downtime, complete with a DPS resource system. Wouldn't it be more interesting if WHM had several DPS spells, which successful completion of a DPS rotation would generate a Blood Lily? Wouldn't it be more interesting if Sage had more pewpew laser spells that generated Addersting and also had different effects on the Kardia target that wasn't just strictly healing?

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this this so much this, why try to tie in the healing resources to dealing damage when instead just a more interesting DPS kit could be added to the healers. For example Restoration Shaman from WoW in expansions past (stopped playing at the end of Legion) had a spammable (lightning bolt) a dot (Flame Lash), a heavy hitting long cast (Lava Burst), aoe (Chain Lightning), and interactions between them (eg: chance for Lava Burst to became instant cast on Flame Lash damage).

I like the idea of an ability that's simply converting Adder's Gall into an Adder's Sting + some MP. Yeah, it could be a damage gain in AoE, but on trash pulls you actually need the Adder's Gall healing abilities usually, so it shouldn't be that much of an issue, especially since most DPS-focused Sages will most likely already get their Sting stacks from shielding during pull and later on it's much better to use the Adder heals than have to gcd.

In boss fights it would just be a nice way to get extra mobility when there's no need to gcd shield, so I doubt it would be spammed as much as ED, if people are so afraid of it.

I'm not partial to just letting SGE apply more ogcds shields with it, because that makes the gcd ones even more useless than they usually are in this game.

Anyone else find it weird how hostile that guy got from the jump?