So just for fun I decided to stick my black mage in the same gear my Blue Mage had on and desync him to level 50 to do some comparisons. Ilvl is 111 with black mage also having a store bought level 50 staff.
Black Mages standard fire attack hits for a flat 100% more targets in comparison to Rams Voice or which 130 potency attack you want to use, with Off-Guard on the target and black mage being in three stacks of Astral Fire. Blue Mage casts .5 seconds faster but even in the optimal situation of Off-Guard and Peculiar light, Blue mage was only hitting 75% of the damage of the black mage. Blue mage has better control of burst damage utilizing Primal Abilities but Fire Starter and Fire 3 coupled with Black Mage just plain hitting harder put Blue Mage far behind Black. Blue Mage AoE is both better and worse than black mage, with Rams Voice into Dragons Voice destroying mobs but Fire 2 dealing more damage to multiple mobs in the event that Rams Dragon wasn't available. Primal Abilities also pushed Blue Mages AoE up even further beyond the black mage.
Bristle not being usable with the Primal Abilities hurt. Explosion, 220 potency, only hit for 1000 damage with a target being under the effect of Off-Guard. Comparatively speaking Fire 3 is 240 potency, hits for upwards of 1600 with the same gear. Yes, multi-target versus single target, but even with improved Main and Mend with Off-Guard up, there should only be a 10% difference in damage, not a 50%.
A Bristled Rams Dragon peculiar light combo was able to hit consistently around 2700 damage but that is entirely dependent on the target not being immune to deep freeze and on Peculiar light being up.
Finally yes, I am aware that Blue Mages have a variety of status attacks no one else has access too. Those skills are entirely dependent on the target not being immune to those status effects and in my soloing of Arum Vale I discovered that even the first boss of that place was immune to everything but Poison and Damage down.
Two things in summation. The first is that Blue Mages can absolutely wreck normal mobs and trash mobs in dungeons but are fairly pitiful against bosses. Second is that I think it was Pheonix who said it, was right. The lack of a dedicated main weapon and the damage ((And defensive stats, my black mage had almost a thousand hit points more then my blue)) stats associated with it really seem to be holding the job back.
Blue Mage damage
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01-25-2019, 08:15 AMPalladiamorsBlue Mage damage
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01-25-2019, 09:06 AMQT_Melon
I agree. Especially given that the Primal Abilities already are "punishing" with a longer GCD and shared skills with another Primal.
Bristle really should have been something like an OGCD like a "Blue Mage Berserk" Bristle in its current form is just meh. That's not to say it isn't fantastic when paired with DoTs. It just feels like an extra button that just feels clunky in design. -
01-25-2019, 10:47 AMEloah
I wanna know why we have so many AoE spells and like only one single target, like what? If most of our spells are swaps with a different element, then where are moves with ice, fire, lightning?
And our damage feels just really low -
01-25-2019, 10:55 AMPalladiamorsIt is. And as for the single target spell, yeah, they needed something stronger than 120 potency. Even with all the buffs the class can bring to itself it never comes close to what other magic DPSers can do. A Bristled Rams voice with Off Guard and Peculiar light up hits for 1100 damage...not even the same amount of as a three Astral fire Fire 1 AND since it uses Bristle its actually a DPS loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloah
BLU's AoE is its only saving grace, and even that depends on a number of factors. The most obvious is access to the right spells, primarily the primal abilities and the Rams Dragon Voice combo. Of course BLU's single target ALSO relies on the Primal abilities...basically, you need the primal abilities. -
01-26-2019, 02:22 PMSymon17
It's pretty commonplace at this point for people to mention how weak BLU is, but I've yet to see it thoroughly tested by these people. Most complaints end at "the potencies are so low compared to other jobs", while completely ignoring off-guard's 50% bonus, in addition to maim and mend V's 20% over magick and mend II. You at least acknowledge those points, but it seems like you're still just comparing individual damage numbers of a random BLM skill with a random BLU skill. Is WAR a better dps than SMN because fell cleave hits harder than fester? There's more to dps than that.
There are translated quotes from Japanese players in another BLU thread saying things like "Our firepower isn't as low as some have said. With final [BiS, or at least level 50] gear and after casting Off Guard, our damage per hit seems fine for a level 50."
Before repeating how weak BLU is for a lvl 50 job, I'd like to see people actually test the damage an optimized BLU rotation can do. I really think they'd find that it's not as simple as "glower only has 130 potency". -
01-26-2019, 03:36 PMPalladiamorsI think you missed the part where I tested stacked damage and max damage potential in comparison to Black Mage. I took into account cast times for blue mage and black mage as well as maximum burst potential. Black Mage has far more burst potential in the same time period as Blue Mage, and Black Mages filler, Fire 1, hits for more than 50% more damage than Blue Mages fillers. The 20% increased attack speed alleviates some of that, but Blacks increased damage from more bursts swings it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
Blue Mage does have Aqua Breath and Song of Torment to help but Thunder 2 tends to swing that back so those still don't make up the gap. To compare the one for ones right now, a level 50 Black Mages Fire tops out at 378 with three stacks of Astral Fire and Maim and Mend. Rams Glower Voice tops out at 260 with the assumption of Off Guard, and 299 with Peculiar Light. This looks good on paper, but in practice it leads to blue mages doing 800 to the blacks 1200, and even thats only for the 10 seconds peculiar light is up. The 20% faster cast time does not make up for this difference. The instant casts are the same story, with Mount Busters 310 potency breaking roughly even with Fire Starter Fire 3 WITH Peculiar Light up and a bit behind without, but being able to chain cast its big three during Peculiar Lights up time helps but doesn't quite make up for the number of likely procs of Firestarter. -
01-26-2019, 03:36 PMPalladiamors
THAT BEING SAID, I am comparing the king of magic DPS to Blue Mage AND under the assumption that the Black Mage is going to constantly be in Astral Fire, which isn't accurate. That being said, the downtime in Astral Ice still doesn't let Blue Mage catch up that much, with the main strike being the lack of Firestarter procs. But if Firestarter procs at least three times during a thirty second period then the Black Mage still has the advantage, even more so under the consideration that the second usage of the Primal Abilities won't be under Peculiar light.
And again, in the realm of AoE Blue Mage is absolutely king. No damage drop off on spammable and decently powerful AoE, the ability to perform a one two punch on normal mobs with a base potency of 310 WHILE RESTRAINING SAID MOBS, TWO AoE DoTs with one still being a 90 potency attack as well, THREE instant cast high damage AoE attacks with one not suffering from damage falloff, THE ABILITY TO BEEF UP ANY OF THESE EXCEPT THE PRIMALS BY 50%, an AoE paralyze power down poison etc...
And in all due fairness again, Black Mage. If I had compared Blue Mage to Red Mage the end result would be different. Not to mention that Blue Mage has a good deal of support going for it as well. In group content Blue Mage is going to have a lot to offer. Its damage is just a bit lower then it probably needs to be at current. -
01-26-2019, 03:46 PMKabooaIt isn't so much that it's bad, but that it's boring. Blue's extended DPS cycle boils down to glower or whatever 130 you want to use after a Machinist similar burst period opener.Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
Because anything worth DPSing is immune to status effects, you literally have no spell combos to use, and after your OGCD burn phase you're just hitting glower until it comes back up.
It's not easy to test since you can't force sync yourself down, and while mimicing your stats at 50 while on 70 is comparable (As base level beyond 50 rarely increases flat damage), that still screws with your stat scaling and you don't get a clearer picture.
It is not only annoying to do these tests, but they're also ultimately fruitless. What's the point? Why put the work in?
Because I'm bored.
Tried a moon flute opener vs non. (Moon flute is only worth using during Opener-esque segments - All three primal spells and a bristled Torment)
using a percent scale, the following is what I have recorded.
Moon flute Opener -> Light "Wildfires": 100%
No Flute OPener -> Light Wildifers: 92%
Moon Flute Opener -> Moonflute + Light "Wildfires": 92%
70 Black Mage mimicking level 50 stats - Dreadwyrm Staff
Compared to 100% Opener
50 Rotation: 80%
70 rotation: 116% -
01-26-2019, 04:54 PMSymon17How much DPS does a BLU do in a 2-3 min period? How much DPS does a level 50 BLM do in a 2-3 min period?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladiamors
I'd argue if it's not interesting enough to fully experiment, why discuss it at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
I am interested, though. How long did your tests last? If I understand your numbers, BLMs lvl 50 opener did 80% of the damage of a Moonfluted BLU opener, while the lvl 70 opener did 116%?
Ultimately, I want to make sure my overall point isn't lost here. I'm not being difficult for fun. I'm commenting because I've looked at numbers some other players have come up with, and I've confirmed them with testing myself. This includes entering lvl 50 dungeons while level sync'd. "BLU is very weak" is considered common knowledge at this point, but I'm not seeing that in actual practice. I'm seeing a class that does completely average damage for a lvl 50 caster. When I see people saying it's so very weak, I want to verify their numbers, and possibly revise my own testing if necessary. -
01-26-2019, 06:29 PMKalise
Really, one of the things that needs pinning down is just how much exactly does INT and secondary stats impact things.
Since, while BLU gets bonus magical power from INT, a BLM has not only the stats on their weapon (Both INT and some secondary stats) but also has Enhanced Intellect traits for bonus INT.
Then of course, there's Maim and Might vs Magick and Might 50% vs 30% with also Off-Guard vs Astral Fire 50% vs 80%
Essentially, potency wise, BLM has Fire which is 180 and then it's amp'd by 110% by M&M and AF up to 378 potency. They also have procs of Fire III which is 240 and then amp'd up to 504 potency. Meaning that on average they push out 428 potency with their Astral Fire CD's (Assuming perfect 40% of Fire I replaced with Fire III)
BLU has Glower (Or another of like a million other spells) with 130 potency. Amp'd by M&M up to 195 and amp'd by OG up to 293 potency.
If you then account for their oGCD primal skills, they get 220 from Eruption (495 after amplification) for ~41 potency per GCD, Static Strike for 310 potency (~678 after amplification) for ~29 potency per GCD and Glass Dance for 290 potency (~653 after amplification) for ~18 potency per GCD.
Putting BLU's average potency per GCD to 381. With Peculiar Light averaging about 26 potency per GCD bringing that up to 407 potency per GCD.
A mere 21 potency per GCD away from BLM. Which may or may not be matched by Torment vs Thunder it's harder to average them out because of Thundercloud procs being weird and dealing full damage of the DoT in addition to its refresh... Potentially doubling the output of the GCD spent refreshing it.
At the very least, the time that BLM has to spend in Astral Ice would put the 2 closer to each other in terms of potency output.
So again, it really hinges on just how effective BLU's INT scaling is at matching the weapon damage, INT and secondary stats that BLM has from their weapon and Enhanced Intelligence traits. -
01-27-2019, 02:51 AMPalladiamorsNot trying to be rude but at this point, go test it yourself. You're not going to listen to anything anyone else says until you do. I've spent hours switching back and forth between classes and waiting for FATES to sync my black mage for more accurate results. Your turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
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01-27-2019, 03:00 AMKabooaBlu operates on a 3 minute cycle (When Shiva and Light line up naturally after the first use) and Black Mage 50 is basically a 24 second cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
I ran every test for about 1 minute, 45 seconds, as Blue levels out -extremely- fast due to the aforementioned limit of variables we can consider. Black mage 50 just had to be spammed to match the time.
70 Black Mage works on 90 second cycles, as convert is a boost, but less influential than lining up 3 primals with Peculiar light, so hard 3 minute cycles aren't required. You get a good idea of where 70 Black Mage lies just rotating around leylines.
The Black Mage numbers are likely a little inaccurate due to improper stat scaling, but the ballpark should be well enough around there. -
01-27-2019, 03:21 AMSymon17I may not have been clear about this, but I have tested it. I was asking for more about your personal results because they weren't matching what I was getting. I'm definitely interested in what others have to say, but I do have concerns about comparing certain attacks without a full rotation for context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladiamors
Thanks for the extra info. That's exactly what I was looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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01-27-2019, 06:34 AMPhoeniciaGood to see people testing, and it is appreciated. However, are you testing pure DPS (damage overtime) or just comparing hit by hit. BLU oGCDs have cast times and naturally clip into each other. If your BLM is hitting 1100~1600 per GCD it would be higher than BLU's throughput in DPS simply because Bristling Ram and Dragon voices does delay the damage for a 50% which is probably not worth the delay. Comparing damage for hit by hit takes us no where. For example WARs fell cleaves do REALLY high damage yet they are still outputting "tank" DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladiamors
Also I do not think BLM is a good or fair comparison as you are comparing the supposed highest DPS job in the game. Not to mention jobs are not balanced around level 50 anymore. But at level 50 if the job is capable of doing anything above 400 they should be in a decent spot. (ilv 130 BLM used to do 600 and MNKs 650 but MNKs may do less now since their output was lowered because of new skills added in SB). Now fixing them to take less damage so they can actually solo or to unlock them into normal duties would be very nice. -
01-27-2019, 06:53 AMPhoeniciaEdit: According to a try on Ultros where I was hitting 2 targets consistently, I did 152 but that fight sucks in general. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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01-27-2019, 06:59 AMPalladiamorsDamage over time, with a one for one just for comparisons sake. The one for one is also important because the faster casts shouldn't be hitting as hard as the longer casts but the difference shouldn't be as big as it is. Its those individual filler casts coupled with Blue Mage's big hitters being on 30 second and 60 second cooldowns with Black Mages being dependent on two procs. Blue's heavy hitters do align with Peculiar Light so the sixty second cooldown primal abilities line up with it perfectly while the thirty seconds are every other peculiar light. Glass Dance is the odd man out at 90 seconds but Peculiar Light is still available every other cast of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Now...it MIGHT be useful to use Moon Flute during the first and third and every other Peculiar Light there after for your burn phases. I am loathe to use Moon Flute in general due to that fifteen second time with complete inaction but considering how much of BLU's damage is going to come from those cooldowns it might be worth the tradeoff. Cram in your three Primal abilities and your DoT's...maybe.
...okay, okay, so there are a LOT of moving parts to BLU. Now I need to log back in and start testing with Moon Flute during burn phases to see if its worth the loss of damage and support during down time.
Edit: Also, dog gone you. I said I was done testing and now I am going to go and test both that and relative damage to a red mage. Weeeee, more desycning! -
01-27-2019, 07:44 AMPalladiamors
Moon Flute is a big old nope. It's a damage loss, doesn't make up for the lack of seven or so filler spells. Only time I can see Moon Flute being useful is when you know a phase shift is coming up with the boss being invincible for a while.
Red Mage highlighted the issues a bit more, I think. The damage numbers were closer, Red Mage ((In slightly inferior gear, due to me just letting my BLU keep on his swanky clothes)) hitting for 750ish a cast, Blue Mage hitting for 690ish a cast. And that's the issue, three is a .3 second difference in cast times for me ((1.98 Jolt 1 to 1.9 Blue filler)) but Blue Mage has a 20% increase in damage over the Red due to Maim and Mend and a 15 potency advantage over Jolt 1 with Off Guard on the target. Then again it might have to do with how scaling from Maim and Mend and Off guard work, both only adding to the base 130 while the 30% from Red Mage gets added to the 180. ...nope, even then it should be what, 260 from Maim and Mend and Off Guard doubling the potency of the filler to the 240 from Jolt 1 with Maim and Mend 3.
So...yeah. I think that more or less proves that Blue mage scaling is too low right now. So thank you, Phoenicia, for making me get off my backside and test something with potency and cast time closer to what the Blue Mage has. If the additional scaling from gear were really making up the difference for Blue Mages lack of a main weapon then Blue Mage 130 potency spells would be hitting for more then Jolt 1. Considering that fillers are hitting for 8% less I think its safe to say that Blue Mages are about fifteen or so percent behind from where they need to be in that department.
Now the question of whether or not fixing that divide would close the gap between BLU and other jobs is another story. I THINK it would close to gap to the point where we'd see the standard differences between classes and not a clear divide. -
01-27-2019, 09:10 AMPhoeniciaJust keep in mind buffs stack multiplicatively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladiamors
What does this mean, you ask? It means Off-guard's 50% applies AFTER the Maim and Mend, this means once you're at 150% output, Off-guard adds 75% to base, totally 225% of "base-line"... Same with Peculiar light applying AFTER aforementioned 2 effects. If BLU is 15% behind at 225% output instead of RDM's 130%, we have a serious scaling problem. -
01-27-2019, 09:31 AMPalladiamorsIf thats the case then its even worse. Blue Mages ability to control its burst is nice sure, but the cooldowns are inhibitive and don't add enough on their own to make up for the down time spent using fillers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
If they can fix the scaling Blue mage will be in a good place. But...considering its a limited job, I dunno if they will or not. -
01-27-2019, 09:33 AMSymon17This was the point I was trying to make earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
If I beat a dummy for 90 seconds, I'm averaging about 41,424 damage according to my battle log. The issue is the battle log doesn't show the damage of dot ticks. So I separately cast those and add up the ticks to get an average both with peculiar light and without. Again, in a 90 second period, those average 8972 when added together.
It's not perfect, but that roughly equates to 50,396, which is about 560 dps when divided over 90 seconds. Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't seem too poor for a caster in ilvl 129 gear. For what it's worth, I've sync'd my SMN down to 50 and tested in similar ways. I average about 570 dps. -
01-28-2019, 06:19 AMRosa_Frandlia
Are we forgetting missile? While it doesn't work on all bosses, on the second boss of most dungeons it works well and I've had it deal 60k damage. If the target isn't immune, that's a huge number that a 50 blm can't come close to overcoming.
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01-28-2019, 07:45 AMKaliseWell, because Missile and the insta-kill abilities are limited in what they can actually affect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia
I mean, technically you can say that BLU has ridiculous damage because if they land a Doom or Tail Screw they instantly kill the target.
But, usually these kinds of comparisons are a way of judging just how far away from a "Normal" job the class is, which generally implies to accounting for skills that would obviously be restricted if the classes were both playing in relevant content. -
01-28-2019, 12:31 PMCabalabob
Keep in mind that BLU unlike BLM is also more than a dps, people think ninja is utility god because it brings a 10% damage buff every minute. Well how many dps can AoE heal, reduce their damage taken by 92%, use a stun as powerful as an AoE shield bash, reduce mob damage dealt by 10% on demand, silence on demand and most importantly buff the entire parties magic damage by 30% every minute (before you even consider spell speed)?
BLU may not be top DPS but it’s utility is through the roof.
That’s not even mentioning other things that have more niche use like tail screw, paralyse, deep freeze, blind, evasion up, petrify etc. -
01-28-2019, 12:42 PMPalladiamorsAlready covered that in a comparison to Red Mage. The problem is less the potential damage of BLU and more that scaling is borked. Where as the 130 potency attacks SHOULD be hitting for more damage than Red Mages Jolt 1, its hitting for a good chunk less. This is just a fixable scaling issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Past that its good controlled burst, great AoE damage, and good if limited support. Fixing the damage issues will put them just behind Red Mage but with more utility, which to me makes sense. -
01-28-2019, 08:28 PMPhoeniciaDepends on how you look at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
The case here is, you have low potency spells in general and lack of weapon dage stat that is being off-set one way or another. This gives us three scenarios(ignoring gimmicky spells for obvious reasons)
1- you have all your spells to choose from.
In this case you have a burst that increases your average DPS to slightly below average at leel 50. You parse something between 400 and 500. Which is more on the low side (tanks at 50 can do 300~400 if want a ballpark).
2- You don't have all your spells and you try to make do (i.e. no primal spells because f*** that grind, right?)
You lose your actual burst and the biggest thing will a bristled moonflute inside peculiar light. You won't reach 300 DPS. You'll peak at 297 or something as a matter of fact.
3- This is the hypothetical case if the job loses the "limited" part and becomes an actual job of which BLU will go through significant changes that aren't necessarily a rework. Take WAR changes in 4.2 with IR beoming a 90s CD, replacing Berserk and changing wat it does. Completely changed the rotation but the class is still about fell cleaves and very short defensive cooldowns.
Weapon damage needs o be added back and the scaling "fixed". Peculiar light will probably drop to 5% because it is AoE. 10% if SE wants to stretch it to remain relevant on bosses. Off-guard might stay as is and blu's average potency remains the same, or lowered to 10-20% and make it a buff you keep akin to Dragon Kick or something. A general rotation should be figured out with some spells of choice (added flavour, not damage) and others repurposed into situational or Carnival exclusive.
Before anyone asks, don't use parses! (Don't ban me Yoshi-P, ok? We love you!) -
01-29-2019, 02:33 AMSymon17Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Out of curiosity, can you confirm that any dots used were properly calculated in those parses? -
01-29-2019, 03:49 AMPhoenicia
When calculating the damage of 1 person it is pretty much 100% accurate. In general the current parser (ahem, which I'm not using of course!!, /wink) is within a 2% error margins that get corrected when uploaded to fflogs (that's why the dps on fflogs is usually lower than *ahem* said certain not-allowed program*cough*).
Also GMs I love you too, don't ban me for using the bad p-word! (not as much as Yoshida-San of course). -
01-29-2019, 03:56 AMSymon17Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Right. I'm not questioning the quality of the parser per se. But if you perform that same rotation but cast no dots, do you get the same results? Others have noted that some of the more popular parsers don't add BLUs dot ticks to the overall dps because the class is new. There was a similar issue with SMN back in 2.x. -
01-29-2019, 04:06 AMPhoeniciaYeah and that stopped being the case in 2.x. :) Now we have concrete data like how summoner's dots contribute 20% of its dps if kept at 100% uptime and Pld is about 10%, etc. To be fair I did not dissect the BLU damage contributors, and probably won't as it is useless atm due to no relevance to any content, we just wanted ballpark marks and I got the numbers in my previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
Back then we had multiples but everyone converged to 1 parser that was originally designed for ever quest but been since changed to accommodate various plug-ins that work on many mmos in the market. This one reads dot damage from the packets being sent back and forth to the server. The issue is the game reads dot ticks as "combined damage" so you can't separate them (but fflogs follows a formula to do so). But if you're the only source of said dots, it will be exact. -
01-29-2019, 04:13 AMQT_Melon
Keep in mind your utility spells are just generally useless in end game due to a boss resistance to it. The bad part is BLU is probably king of CC but once you get to dungeons that even have trash immune to a majority of it, this takes the fun out of Blue Mage. Just like how BLM's sleep, and WHM's repose gets put on the shelf.
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01-29-2019, 04:18 AMSymon17If that's the case for BLU, then why do you parse the same when casting dots vs not? That's what I'm really getting to. The parse gives you between 400 and 500 when casting song of torment for instance. If you parse and never cast it, the dps doesn't go down. Does Song of torment do no damage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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01-29-2019, 04:57 AMPhoeniciaSong of Torment is being cast. And if you drop it you lose DPS. If your parser is not logging the DoT, you configured it incorrectly, or aren't running it as an administrator. Check google as I don't want to get into details on the official forums. (Again, the SMN loses 20% for not using Bio and Miasma which we know for a fact because it logs so).Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
Also, DPS in general is all about damage over a period of time. Think of it Damage per GCD (Since GCD is a unit of time). If a DoT like Aqua Breath is used, which applies Dropsy, it directly deals 90 potency and Dropsy deals 10/tick, which in 12 seconds is 3~4 ticks. The GCD you used net you 120~130 potency.. Might as well just cast Glower. Aqua Breath into High Voltage is 130/GCD, so unless you "want" the paralysis to be extended, just cast Glower/Flamethrower/etal. This for example is why using Thunder Cloud on BLM is not considered "clipping the DoT" because the GCD you spent nets you the total value of a thunder + refresh the DoT. But if you use 2 TCs in a row you "waste" a GCD that could've been spent on Fire 4 which is higher potency than a TC before the DoT ticks.
BLU having no actual off-GCD actions and its damage boosters "costing" GCDs lowers the average Damage/GCD (DPS). That's why Bristling everything is a net loss. Song of Torment is worth the Bristle use though. Because every GCD you spend is 130 (using as base line), SoT is 300 potency (inital damage + dot), Bristle will give you 150 which is higher than the 130 baseline. Parsers WILL show you this.
Based on the above 2 points, if you are using Bad Breath and Aqua Breath for the DoT component, you are not "gaining" damage since they total 130 for the GCD they cost you to cast. Meaning Aqua Breath + its DoT = Glower. As such you will parse the same.
There is also DoT uptime or clipping. If you let the DoT drop or you cut it too early it might make no difference. This is mainly because BLU's "DoT"s are laughable at best 300 (song) or 130 (aqua and bad breath) vs 130 fillers. On the other hand, the SMN's Bio is 500 and Miasma is 550 vs it's filler GCD being 120 in Ruin 3. Or the PLD's Goring Blade being a 570 GCD when the PLD's average GCD is ~250 or so. Black Mage Thunder III is 390 total, and TC is double that.
The thing that WILL throw your parse out of whack though is the usage of Missile/Tail Screw. Against Ramuh I was doing 350-ish, which is low since with 7 BLUs rotating Peculiar Light we should have a permanent 30% increase, but also no one had primal spells and the Fear that most of the team didn't know how to break made the average so low. However, if one of us lands the first tail screw their DPS shoots to 800 (and when the fight ends they would "average" 700). But that's not really "DPS".... It's called "Cheese". And this can be adjusted to only work for certain things instead of being "OP".
Edit: Sorry for the edits. Typing on the phone sucks and auto correct doesn't' help lol. And I tend to derp because my fingers don't like to listen to my brain... bad fingers!!
Last Edit: I just remembered this: The margin of error in the DoT calculation is that the parser does not know which DoTs crit so it tries to estimate the crits. This is mainly an issue if you have multiple DoT classes (BRD+DRG+SMN+BLM) or multiples of the same DoT (i.e. 2 SMNs). FFlogs corrects it to be more accurate crit/dh rate (not exact). Total damage done will be exact, however, so DPS will not be affected by this. -
01-29-2019, 05:20 AMSymon17None of the rotations I'm referring to use aqua breath, bad breath, or an instant death skill though. And I can confirm that they aren't trying to make use of the combos (like high voltage) you mentioned. I understand that a 130 potency spell spam in between primal skills and bristled song of torment is the most efficient. My issue isn't that my numbers are low. I'm trying to understand how, if what you're saying is true, I can consistently hit around 550 dps, even when checked against multiple sources. That includes manually calculating the dps by adding up the damage from the battle log.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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01-29-2019, 05:43 AMPhoeniciaWell, if you're consistently hitting 550 then that's your DPS. I approximated a DPS range between 400 and 500, 50 above that isn't too far off. I wasn't optimizing and I only tried it twice (once by myself and a second time showing a friend). But if what you are saying that with and without Song of Torment you're getting 550, then it can be that whoever is updating the parsing plug-in didn't care enough to accurately hit BLU. But I know for a fact SoT increased my damage (when I was testing without the primal spells I tried with it and without it to see if bristling SoT vs skipping made a difference while doing mainly Off-Guard and glower spam (Peculiar Light when UP of course).)Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
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01-29-2019, 06:01 AMUrsa_Vonfiebryd
Blue magic has always been an odd duck in the FF franchise. In most cases, it was more effectively paired with some sort of melee physical damage like in FF8/FFT/FF10 (I haven't played 11 but I assume its a bit like that as well), making Blue magic a sort of 'flavor', rather than a dedicated caster class. FF14 has chosen to go the route of FF7's enemy skill materia--an extremely useful materia but also extremely niche. The difference being that there are aspects that target specific roles here, most notably tank, that FF7 did not account for since it had only a rudimentary mmo structure that did not rely on the standard tank/healer/dps model.
The short of it is, the reason Bluemage is a 'limited' job is because blue magic by itself is extremely limited in effectiveness. If they had added a melee aspect, like redmage it might have been a different story but they chose to go with blue magic alone and that its own major drawback. With that said, I am eagerly awaiting auto-life in the expansion, which will make all those ko spells make more sense lol. -
01-29-2019, 06:05 AMSymon17Thanks for verifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
I was originally confused because I believe we're all doing the same rotation (more or less, there isn't a lot to play with as far a BLU goes), and the general consensus seems to be that BLU has poor DPS for level 50 (some are going so far as to say it's "atrocious"). I've tested so many times at this point, and the range I'm getting is 540-580. I've done what I can to verify that my numbers are accurate, so I'm not sure where the discrepancy lies. That's where all of the questioning comes from (though I do get that it's probably pretty annoying).Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
When sync'd to 50, my SMN was pulling numbers in the high 500s. So when considering the utility BLU brings at that level, it feels somewhat fairly balanced. That's all I'm trying to say. -
01-29-2019, 06:37 AMPhoeniciaI don't mind the questions. Clarifying things is something I do pretty often. Whither I'm on the receiving end or trying to send a message.Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
I am not going to ask your SMN rotation and will trust you know what you are doing. But I want to bring a few more concerns to mind...
First, game is not balanced around level 50 anymore. Summoners lost a fair bit of damage when they lost an entire DoT ability that wasn't compensated until mid-60s for example. The only reason we're not too far off from ARR days is the removal of the "fluff" stat of accuracy (which adds no damage, only ensure hits) and addition of Direct Hit. So not only we have more stats, we have more of the stats.
SMN in Stormblood not only lost the ability to stack Bio II with Bio, but it also lost Raging Strikes, 20% (or was it 30%?) is not something to scoff at. Especially since we could contagion to extend our "super DoTs" which included Miasma II (and Potent Poisoning Potion if people remember this) which we also lost. So if you sync'd at 50 and still kept RS and old contagion, I doubt you'd only get around 500 DPS. Heck, our main mechanic of Dreadwyrm Trance resetting our Tri-D to reapply DoTs without spending GCDs isn't available until 60. (I say "our" because I was a SMN main for most of HW and until 4.4 hit when I changed back to tanks and SMN is my current off-spec).
This isn't only true for SMN mind you. Every job, be it DPS, tanks or healers, changed. MNK lost a vital DoT (touch of death), damage on GCDs and oGCDs because the addition of Brotherhood and crits giving Chakra. DRG changed a lot and lost Phlebotomize and Power Surge (Whichever move that powered their next Jump). Ninja, a DoT and combo changes, etc. IMHO, most jobs are unplayable under 60 now-a-days (mainly because it feels VERY restricted with all the "fun" things are so back-loaded. Warrior's IR and DRK's TBN come to mind.). Hence now that I have all my jobs at 70 I do not touch mentor, leveling, or any other content that syncs me down and I am seriously praying of a Guild Wars 2 style level sync where stats drop below someone at that level but you retain all your abilities. But I digress. My main point here is; it is very difficult to accurately place BLU in a "rank" between the DPS jobs because of lack of balance around level 50.
On last thing, when you sync your SMN to 50, are you wearing actual ilv130 gear or are you using your lv70 gear? You lose melds and the item stat "budget" was different at ilv130 vs current gear (we can have more determination than we did back then and you lose materia effects when sync'd). Just want to know if that was also taken into account. -
01-29-2019, 07:26 AMSymon17That's a good point. I didn't consider the loss of raging strikes (That seems so long ago), but by "High 500s" I meant around 580 ish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
I agree, though it's kind of funny how similar SMN felt to BLU when sync'd. They both have the idea of "get your dots up, blow your burst attacks and then filler until it's time to start over again".Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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01-29-2019, 07:47 AMPhoeniciaThat comparison made me sad :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
580 on smn is pretty high for lv50 though. Meanwhile I get level 70s in dungeon doing that number. Lol -
01-29-2019, 08:17 AMSymon17That's honestly impressive at lvl 70. You have to put real effort into that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia