Job/Role daydreaming

So this is just some daydreaming I had while bored at work, considering the role skills system the game currently has. What if they gave each class an alternate spec/role, utilizing the role skills more heavily? (keeping in mind that it would have to make sense with the job as a whole if it were to cross a role barrier)

For instance, I think tank role skills are already halfway there....just consolidate the rest of the defensive cooldowns into there, add a heavy threat weaponskill + aoe, along with a stance/trait to take reduced damage. Then most of the melee classes could tank as well.

Similarly, for a DPS kit, put in a trait/stance to do increased damage and whatever support skills would be needed for balance. Then the current tanks can go as full-fledged DPS - who wouldn't want those greatswords and giant axes to do bigger numbers :p

Black Mage, Bard, and Machinist would probably need something to switch within different DPS specs (maybe something similar to Noct/Diurn sects for AST?). The healers could all draw upon a DPS kit pretty effectively, given just a few tweaks to numbers and an added skill or 2.

Could open up some interesting combinations and party setups if they changed things up like this. I imagine it'd be a complete nightmare for the balance team, though hehe

Anyways, this was just a muse/ramble, though I'd be curious what other people would think of this.

So. .. talent trees or specs from WoW is what you want?

What would be the purpose when we can already change jobs if we need to be tank or healer or DPS for whatever reason?

My experience is people ask for these types of changes when they want to be more efficient at soloing content without having any concern about the impact those changes would have on group play. Such changes would lead to homogenization and homogenization leads to people getting bored because there's nothing to switch to when they're in the mood to do something differently.

It also leads to a meta where only one class job gets invited because that job is seen as the best overall at doing it all.

While I miss things like spec and talents from WoW, I don't think this would be a great fit for FF XIV. Taking say Ninja and Samurai and tacking on a few basic tank skills would just water the game down.

With them allowing us to take all 10 tank skills I think they should do the opposite. Get rid of cross roll skills in 5.0, which I think this change is prepping for, and then just bake the important things into the jobs.

In a game like EOS maybe flexible roles fits well. Or in GW2 where there is no trinity system. In FF XIV, I don't think muddying the waters between roles would fit or even really add anything since we can play every job on one character as is. Want to swap to a tank? Level a tank job and click a button.

While I think it would be a neat idea for Red Mages to be able to heal because of the class concept, I just don't buy the idea of a Ninja trying to tank damage.

Isn’t this what they’re going for with the ‘Logos’ system featured in the next Eureka?(Pyros)
Not quite the same since it’ll be Eureka only and the abilities are likely heavily restricted (huge cooldowns, they’re consumable, likely a pain to get)

Certain cross-role abilities will be added in the new Eureka content that allow a class to temporarily take on another role. Examples given were an ability that increases max HP and defense for melee or a Cure spell for every job.

I’d give anything to be able to use Cure, Raise and Stoneskin again as a Bard like in pre-2.0 versions. They can take all the DPS they want away from the job

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

What would be the purpose when we can already change jobs if we need to be tank or healer or DPS for whatever reason?

My experience is people ask for these types of changes when they want to be more efficient at soloing content without having any concern about the impact those changes would have on group play. Such changes would lead to homogenization and homogenization leads to people getting bored because there's nothing to switch to when they're in the mood to do something differently.

It also leads to a meta where only one class job gets invited because that job is seen as the best overall at doing it all.

---

You just described where we are sitting right now...

I'm a boycotter of the role skill/sub job system. It's an antiquated system that makes everything more tedious than it has to be already. Even back in FFXI, I remember thinking how much I hated the subjob system because even for casual content, I was forced to level jobs I had absolutely zero interest in if I wanted to participate in group play. I remember being an RDM/WHM and getting booted from an exp party so they could nab a RDM/BLM (because RDM/BLM had like +2 additional INT over the other, so you know... more deeps). Then I remember getting picked up by another party and then getting /tells from my former party asking me to come back (apparently their optimal rdm/blm wasn't working out as they had hoped).

Now that is a story over a decade old, and times are different now.... or are they? I think we still have the same, yet modernized meta yo. I just can't fathom why anyone wants this system in 2018. Is it nostalgia? I could see them tossing a subjob system into something like Eureka that deviates from the normal instances, but I think it would only serve to frustrate today's players who see the cross skill/sub job system for what it is in today's standards. It has no place, sorry. The dev team should focus on making jobs unique but balanced. And the more skills there are in the pool, the more difficult this becomes.

I would be totally ok with zero jobs being introduced in 5.0 for a system that favors how I envision our jobs being played: Diverse, balanced, fun as hell to not only level but max out in ilvl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

You just described where we are sitting right now...

---

Not entirely.
There are different "metas" depending on what you're trying to do, each job is good at different things - AST is the best healer for speed kills where everyone knows what they're doing but when you're progging WHM is much better as it can easily recover faster; Monk and Ninja are pretty much interchangeable considering the latter's aggro tools aren't nearly as valuable now, some groups even take both over a second ranged DPS for certain fights.

The only jobs that are really locked in terms of "meta" are Warrior, Paladin, Scholar, Dragoon and Bard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm a boycotter of the role skill/sub job system. It's an antiquated system that makes everything more tedious than it has to be already. Even back in FFXI, I remember thinking how much I hated the subjob system because even for casual content, I was forced to level jobs I had absolutely zero interest in if I wanted to participate in group play.

---

The role archetype is specifically made so that you won't have to level jobs you don't want to. Like you don't have to level CNJ if you want to heal effectively as a SCH or AST, anymore.

Right now, jobs are restricted to one weapon only, so if you love having a Big Axe but don't want to tank, you're screwed. Having a DPS role tied to MRD would solve this. Same if you like fighting with a Polearm but would like to tank t the same time.

What I think should be done, on top or role skills, is removing traits for classes and giving them to jobs. This way, a Gladiator-based DPS could have the enmity modifiers removed from its skills or have a potency boost.

And, finally, if each class has a tank/healer associated with it in addition to a DPS, it could make people more eager to try these roles. If you level your pugilist to become a MNK, and gain a fairly high experience with its rotation, you should be more comfortable using most of the same skills as a tank, as opposed to learning a totally new job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

It's an antiquated system that makes everything more tedious than it has to be already.

---

That's not the proper use of "antiquated". Entertainment does not ever get "out of fashion" and for something to be outdated there needs to be a modern version that is superior.

In other words, for the sub-job system you speak of to be viably considered antiquated, there needs to be a different kind of sub-job system that is more user-friendly/enjoyable. You cannot say that the sub-job mechanic itself is antiquated, ever, without being plain wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Even back in FFXI, I remember thinking how much I hated the subjob system because even for casual content, I was forced to level jobs I had absolutely zero interest in if I wanted to participate in group play.

---

You're free to hate this system, it's your opinion and your enjoyment. I on the other hand like this system and it irked me that the "necessity" in FFXIV was so low when I begun playing. I always wanted the multiple classes to be more tied together, not less. And they completely removed it...I say, what's the point of making a Final Fantasy game and then remove the very thing that makes Final Fantasy series games different from rank and file RPG's?! This is not Final Fantasy game in anything but name. It's a good RPG with good story, but it have nothing that makes Final Fantasy what it is beyond that and some aesthetics. Not even skill effects are anywhere near other Final Fantasy titles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

I just can't fathom why anyone wants this system in 2018. Is it nostalgia?

---

No, it's not nostalgia. It's entertainment. If I'd say that I cannot understand how anyone can still want RPG's in this day and age when all the rage is Battle Royale, Idle games, mobile strategy games and MOBA games, I'd be rightfully laughed at. You are doing the exact same here, completely dismissing a core concept that simply cannot become outdated.

This can be done well and it can be done poorly. But the idea behind it is at the same level as tactical strategy games, turn-based strategy games, real-time strategy games, arcade races or simulation races, isometric RPG's, third person perspective RPG's or first person perspective RPG's etc. It's a design type within the general genre of RPG.

And I like it now for the same reasons I liked it five, ten, fifteen years ago. Because it's fun. Because I like mix and matching stuff. Final Fantasy Tactics series are still one of my favorite games ever, not for the stories which weren't all that fun in comparison to some other games, but for the mechanics that these three games offered. I liked trying to figure out how to get an overpowered Calculator in the PS original, without putting myself in a bind (random encounters were based on the highest/average level among your party, so you could power-level a single character in a single fight to high heaven, but as a result you would be absolutely obliterated in the first random encounter). I liked making powerhouses that could deal with individuals or groups at any range in Tactics Advance. The final game in the series actually took some of that freedom away with its changes to mana system (start at zero, rather than start from full) and all-around "balancing", but it still offered customization that allowed me to make a party however I wanted.


Also, there is no such thing as "unique but balanced". It's either unique OR balanced. There are only so many factors that can be modified, even less of them are left.

Range (close, mid or long).
Which of the trinity.
Damage in burst, or in constant.
AoE heavy or single-target heavy.
Magical or physical.
Support heavy or raw damage.
Heavy heal or heal and shield or heal over time.
High HP or high damage reduction.

And...that's really all. The last two don't even apply to DPS, each applies to only one role. So that's six factors for DPS, seven factors for tanks and healers. You simply will not be able to maintain balance with variety. There's only so many ways to make damage dealing skills when there is no difference between the damage types anyway. They removed elemental effects so all the skills are one and the same, with different potency. There is still a difference between magical and physical to account for magic classes lack of auto-attack, giving them more bang for the buck on skills, but that's about all.

They should go the other way around, actually. Embrace the fact that classes can be changed freely and make classes that are simply fun even if they lag behind on power. In lower content they can be enjoyed as is, in higher content the players can just switch. But of course...they won't. Cause they listen to the "I don't care about multi-class system, I want my class to be at the top in all content, period, cause I like it the most" instead.

The problem with this request is ALWAYS the same. Why do specs or talent trees when you could just make a new job? That's the dev teams thought process and I agree with it. Why make a NIN with tanking skills tacted on? You can just make an eastern themed tank instead. Why have a WHM that is DPS focused when you could just make a job out of it instead?


The only answer people have come up with is basically "I don't want to level another job." That's just lazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Why do specs or talent trees when you could just make a new job?

---

It cost less to tweak a class skills so that they fit two roles and use role actions to cover the core aspect of each archetype than creating a new job from scratch. And it pleases the fetishists of a certain type of weapon. And, again, it could make player feel more comfortable to switch role if they're already familiar with the flavor of the class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

The only answer people have come up with is basically "I don't want to level another job." That's just lazy.

---

The answer to that is actually much simpler than that. If the talent tree is a supplement, then there is the core there. The class in itself would be largely in the skills that are set in stone.

Think about Scholar and Summoner for a moment. Both of them have the same basic toolkit. Let's ignore the major mistake a DPS class being the core for a healer. But that's the core in the form of Arcanist.

Since that core is there, there is no need to duplicate it. Making a new class entirely you will need to make that "core" again. And either you copy it from the original class (if Scholar was an upgrade of, lets say, Savant, then that Savant would copy the skills of an arcanist) which either makes the two classes so similar they could be one and the same to begin with (duh), or you have to change the aesthetics at least which would result in copying the skill effects, but would name them differently reducing the pool of names for actual new skills in the future. Alternatively those core skills could be made completely different (like, if this Savant would have an entirely different toolkit from Arcanist), making it bona-fide new class...but then you have to do TWICE as many skills in design. And the core skills usually are the simple things that are mostly copy-pasted with potencies switched around, so they are rather...unexciting. In both design and practice. So twice the design work for barely anything more.

These "talent trees" could even be leveled separately, so the "lazy" excuse is not even valid.

Now, what is a bad idea is to bleed into different roles, unless the core would really be basic. That's what they did with Arcanist and Scholar and that absolutely did not work. Frankly, the team behind FFXIV is absolutely not able to properly balance the core between two different parts of the trinity. It's just not something they are skilled in, and it is not easy either. You can see that the game is simplified because they simply cannot cope up with balancing more complicated mechanics (they and some of the playerbase both). So I'm afraid that if such a thing would happen, it either would be ill-suited to a trinity system made by this team, or it would need to be mostly lesser in effect or entirely about play-style rather than role. As in, a paladin could get a bit more healing, but could not be a healer (changing survivability from brute-forcing into healing himself up, for example, paying for the ability to help the healers for non-tanks with having a harder time to deal with tankbusters himself). Red mage is a good example. The healing of a red mage is good enough to keep the party floating even without healers for a short while, but the healers are imperative in the long run. Red mage loses on damage however as a result.

And these "specialties", is what I'd like to see. Not reinventing the wheel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

Now, what is a bad idea is to bleed into different roles, unless the core would really be basic.

---

I think it's doable, with a little thought put in it. For me, it wasn't that great for SCH and SMN because SCH really felt rushed to avoid the "only one healer job". With the proper role actions, you have everything at your disposal to do any role with any class at low level. And at higher level, the job specific actions will fill in the gap.

A long time ago, I used Gladiator as an example, and how reorganizing the current PLD skills could give room for a sword/shield based DPS. It went that way :

List Of Gladiator Skills

• Fast Blade (1)
• Fight or Flight (2)
• Savage Blade (4)
• Riot Blade (6)
• Shield Stance (10)
• Total Eclipse (15)
• Shield Lob (18)
• Shield Bash (26)
• Rage Of Halone (30)
• Sword Stance (38)
• Tempered Will (42)
• Goring Blade (46)
• Royal Authority (48)
• Circle Of Scorn (50)

List Of Paladin Skills

• Flash (30)
• Sentinel (35)
• Spirits Within(40)
• Shield Swipe (45)
• Hallowed Ground (50)
• Sheltron (52)
• Bulwark (54)
• Divine Veil (56)
• Clemency (58)
• Cover (60)
• Intervention (62)
• Holy Spirit (64)
• Requiescat (68)
• Passage Of Arms (70)

List Of Paladin Traits

• Enhanced Vitality (20, 40 and 60)
• Enhanced Enmity (30 and 50)
• Oath Mastery (52)
• Divine Magic Mastery (64)
• Enhanced Cover (66)

Below lvl 30, the enmity boost of "Shield Stance" would be enough to keep ennemies on you, so that you can remove the enmity bonus on Savage Blade, Shield Lob and RoH, and we know that current role skills are enough to survive. The PLD Enmity traits would add enmity bonus to (at least) your "enmity" combo, Shield Lob and Circle of Scorn. In the end, you'd have the exact same PLD that now at level 70, but it wouldn't be that hard to create a physical DPS using the Glad skills from level 1 to 50 at its core + the DPS role skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I think it's doable, with a little thought put in it.

---

That's the problem here. I have little to no faith in this team being able to do that. Is it doable? Yes. Same as lifting a small car on your head. But not everyone can lift one, just like not everyone can do make such bleeding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

For me, it wasn't that great for SCH and SMN because SCH really felt rushed to avoid the "only one healer job".

---

There were two expansions and multitude of patches since then, including ones that significantly changed the classes. And they still did not find a way to do it properly. They simply do not know how to deal with it.

And the cross role?! The way it was originally was rather...bad. The way it evolved into role skills was even worse and had no place in the game at all (it was counterproductive to the very intention for "role skills"). It's unfortunate, but this development team either lacks people capable of making mechanics that give customization or the higher ups ignore those people. Considering what Yoshida said during all manner of interviews, I'm willing to bet that they are outright ignored though. So there is little to no chance for a properly made system like that. If that is the case, they should stick to the simplest forms without touching the trinity system they decided on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

That's the problem here. I have little to no faith in this team being able to do that. Is it doable? Yes.

---

Frankly, I think the playerbase is the main culprit on that. "No build but the best, personal preference be damned", "no thoughts put in managing the character", "splitting bonus points is an absolute no-no even though at the end, they almost don't matter compared to the stats you gain from gear"...Why would a developper put any effort in doing that if the playerbase if gonna brush the very concept ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

There were two expansions and multitude of patches since then, including ones that significantly changed the classes. And they still did not find a way to do it properly.

---

SCH and SMN are two well loved and really useful jobs, so they're working fine. But, to be honest, my gripe with SMN has no tie to the branching jobs. I just find it stupid to have a pet job having so few action actually tied to its pets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

And the cross role?! The way it was originally was rather...bad. The way it evolved into role skills was even worse and had no place in the game at all (it was counterproductive to the very intention for "role skills").

---

The problem with role skills is that they're only useful if you want to change the archetype of a class. Having tank role skills for tank role classes (DRK included) is useless. That's why I hope that they'll try to go back and do it properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

SCH and SMN are two well loved and really useful jobs, so they're working fine.

---

They're working fine now because after 2 expansions the only skills shared between the two are Ruin II, Bane and Rouse. Other than that they're completely different jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ameela

They're working fine now because after 2 expansions the only skills shared between the two are Ruin II, Bane and Rouse. Other than that they're completely different jobs.

---

Yes, and like my example above, I'm pretty sure you could easily create a DPS job based on a Gladiator if you reorganize some skill between GLD and PLD, because they'd still have different role and job actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, and like my example above, I'm pretty sure you could easily create a DPS job based on a Gladiator if you reorganize some skill between GLD and PLD, because they'd still have different role and job actions.

---

If we're using SMN and SCH as a benchmark then you could consider any melee job with two 3-button combos to be a variation of Gladiator, as the similarities are about the same.
Could also say WHM is to BLM as SCH is to SMN, the only difference being that the latter come from the same class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Frankly, I think the playerbase is the main culprit on that.

---

Yoshida literally and openly said that they pursue simplification to make balancing future fights easier. I don't remember now in regards to what he gave that answer (probably as to why there are no gear varieties at the same item level anymore), but the answer was general enough.

That's why the stat distribution was removed, why elemental affinities were removed, why the class/job system was abandoned (and they didn't even have the courage to actually remove it leaving the trashed system behind), why the hunting log was abandoned. They make a lot of systems then abandon or remove them because they turn out to be too much of a pain to develop in the long run. Even leve quests for disciples of war. They abandoned it because it was too much work to give them flavor. Because writing "A rise in humidity increased the marlboro population. Nip the problem at the bud." is apparently too hard.


As for the role skills, I think you missed the point of role skills as stated by the developers. Their purpose was to make sure that every player had every necessary skill at their disposal without having to level other classes. Because things like Swiftcast always were "mandatory" for all related classes. That is large part of why this system was a complete and utter failure. Because of how limited the slots for them in comparison to the skills, people ended up picking four or five per class that everyone and their mother will have leaving the other skills behind. At that point this system is strictly inferior to simply GIVING every class the toolkit that they need to begin with.

It never was made for customization. Cross-class skills were made for that...but the choice of skills in it were simply flawed. Majority of the skills in questions simply had no utility whatsoever outside of classes that already had equivalent skills to begin with. Heck. There was even a warriors combo starter skill if I remember correctly...without any combo compatibility or purpose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ameela

If we're using SMN and SCH as a benchmark then you could consider any melee job with two 3-button combos to be a variation of Gladiator, as the similarities are about the same.

---

Technically, there's not that much difference between ROG and LNC. It doesn't prevent the game from creating two different jobs. If you take the Gladiator above, give it some debuffing spells, a "stance" that spends HP to buff each WS and a skill that deals more damage the less HP you have, you could come close to a real "Dark Knight" DPS that would feel very different from PLD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

Yoshida literally and openly said that they pursue simplification to make balancing future fights easier.

---

He also said thaty they wouldn't put unique builds for characters and unique effect on items because he thought people would be rejected if they didn't have the mandatory best setup...which is stupid, because ilvl is already a mathematically best setup and yet the world didn't burn when not everyone had a perfect Zeta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

That's why the stat distribution was removed, why elemental affinities were removed

---

Stat distribution was removed way after they decided that jobs would only use one stat for all. And elemental affinities were removed right from the start because they feared that some jobs might be pushed away...yet they have no issue having physical affinities that effectively pushed jobs away...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

As for the role skills, I think you missed the point of role skills as stated by the developers. Their purpose was to make sure that every player had every necessary skill at their disposal without having to level other classes.

---

But, that's stupid. You want every healer to have Swiftcast ? Make switcast a native skill for all of them. You want every tank to have Provoke ? Make Provoke a native skill to all of them. Removing the actual cross-"role" skills (Like Internal Release for WAR or Stoneskin for PLD) make those actions just bland, and especially because there wasn't even a choice of what you should use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Technically, there's not that much difference between ROG and LNC. It doesn't prevent the game from creating two different jobs. If you take the Gladiator above, give it some debuffing spells, a "stance" that spends HP to buff each WS and a skill that deals more damage the less HP you have, you could come close to a real "Dark Knight" DPS that would feel very different from PLD.

---

My point is there's no real point to tying two jobs to a class when you can just make a completely new job with no restrictions in terms of how it has to interact with parts of a pre-existing kit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ameela

My point is there's no real point to tying two jobs to a class when you can just make a completely new job with no restrictions in terms of how it has to interact with parts of a pre-existing kit.

---

Again, there is. It cost less money to create a job based on an existing kit, so they could create more jobs. And it could help people try different roles since they'd already be comfortable with the core skills of their job. If you know your LNC rotation, having a spear-tank could feel less frightening that having to learn the MRD rotation.

Rather than remaking and rebalancing Gladiator and Paladin just so could potentially slap a DPS job on it's side... It would be much easier to just create a completely new job.
It's not just a matter of the skills, there's the issue with gear as well. They shouldn't be using gear meant for GLA/PLD or MRD/WAR. They'd have terrible secondary stats and tenacity completely wasting a stat slot. Although I suppose, they could use the slightly higher def DRG gear to go with the shield... But they'd need their own weapons and shields separate from GLA/PLD ones. Which begs the question, if they're gonna make completely new weapons for them, why still base it off of GLA...

And since you can't really have only upsides, so they'd have to kind of be on the lower end of DPS in exchange for more survivability which would likely just end up hurting raids...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

It would be much easier to just create a completely new job.

---

I really don't think it would. In my example, the only change to skills I made was separating the enmity bonus to a trait for PLD. Everything else is exactly the same as it is now, just with a different requirement, that doesn't need any "remaking" or "rebalancing".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

They shouldn't be using gear meant for GLA/PLD or MRD/WAR.

---

At low level, no one would care, and at high level, they woul indeed wear different gear. Like you said in that case, probably LCN/DRG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Which begs the question, if they're gonna make completely new weapons for them, why still base it off of GLA...

---

SCH, ACN and SMN all share a "book" type weapon, some of those books are simply restricted for each job. Not a big deal...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

SCH, ACN and SMN all share a "book" type weapon, some of those books are simply restricted for each job. Not a big deal...

---

Literally every weapon after level 49 is restricted because they realised basing two jobs with different roles on the same class was a horrible idea.
SCH has so little to do with ACN nowadays it may as well not even branch off of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ameela

Literally every weapon after level 49 is restricted because they realised basing two jobs with different roles on the same class was a horrible idea.

---

No, they were restricted because you could't have both INT and MND on a weapon without unbalancing SCH or SMN at that time. Now that those jobs only have one stat, you could put both of them at the same time, and no one would care. That's also why putting MNK and NIN on the same gear wasn't a big deal.
Also, you already have swords and shields that Glad can't equip, even though there's only PLD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, there is. It cost less money to create a job based on an existing kit, so they could create more jobs. And it could help people try different roles since they'd already be comfortable with the core skills of their job. If you know your LNC rotation, having a spear-tank could feel less frightening that having to learn the MRD rotation.

---

A spear tank would mostly be spear&shield and can't reuse the animations and weapons from LNC, so it would take more work.

Also for the GLA/PLD ones i would suggest to expand on the idea of a fast fighter with slim swords and fencing weapons like foil, epee and rapiers (to bad RDM already covers this weapon type) and buckler.

The branching can work, but mostly you have to readjust skill names and animations to fit the new style.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I really don't think it would. In my example, the only change to skills I made was separating the enmity bonus to a trait for PLD. Everything else is exactly the same as it is now, just with a different requirement, that doesn't need any "remaking" or "rebalancing".

---

I know low levels get easily ignored, but GLA still needs to function at below level 30, so you can't just lump every tanking related skill onto PLD. Which would mean that when you unlock the hypothetical DPS class for them, they'd still have those tank skills from GLA, which they wouldn't really have use for... Sure nowadays some of the essential tank skills are on the role skills, but basic enmity building skills are still on the job itself, though one change that would make sense would be making Flash into a role skill, and working one of the current role skills into all the tanks...
The basic enmity combo would have to remain as it is, it would more make sense for the DPS job to have a trait that lowers it's enmity generation instead.

So there would be reworking to be done in order to make GLA support a DPS job.


And even then, bringing up the gear issues again, they wouldn't use GLA/PLD armor, they wouldn't use the same weapons and shields as GLA/PLD, so why base it off of GLA/PLD?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

But, that's stupid. You want every healer to have Swiftcast ? Make switcast a native skill for all of them.

---

Yes, exactly. That's my point. This simple fact is why I do not trust the developers with a more complicated form of talent trees or sub-jobs, ones that would bleed into different trinity role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

A spear tank would mostly be spear&shield and can't reuse the animations and weapons from LNC, so it would take more work.

---

Based on what ? The tank that's Axe & Shield ? Or Longsword and Shield ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I know low levels get easily ignored, but GLA still needs to function at below level 30, so you can't just lump every tanking related skill onto PLD.

---

Basically, my suggestion simply swaps Flash for Total Eclipse, and give Shield "Stance" much sooner than now, boosting enmity of every action and offering higher mitigation. This would easily compensate for losing the only tanking skills GLA natively has below lvl 30, which is Flash and the enmity boost on Savage and RoH (Especially since you'd only have RoH for Haukke Manor before being PLD and having the enmity bonus again).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

And even then, bringing up the gear issues again, they wouldn't use GLA/PLD armor, they wouldn't use the same weapons and shields as GLA/PLD, so why base it off of GLA/PLD?

---

They would still use sword and shield, so you wouldn't even have to create new types of weapon, simply flagging them off GLA/PLD. After all, you already have shields and swords that GLA can't equip (Even PLD for some shields), it's not really a problem.
And for armor, you just add this new DPS to DRG gear, just a flag again. And you'd still use the same basic rotation, meaning you wouldn't start this new job completely blind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

Yes, exactly. That's my point.

---

That's technically also my point. Putting them on a separate set instead of simply giving them to all classes would be a great way to offer more job opportunities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Based on what ? The tank that's Axe & Shield ? Or Longsword and Shield ?

---

Neither nor.
Roman Legions

Just to throw my 2 cents back in after reading where discussion has gone:
I wasn't thinking of separate jobs off of the base class - everything about the Job's core kit would remain the same. You wouldn't even use different gear (they'd probably have to scale PLD/WAR/DRK gear down defense-wise to balance it out while going as dps). You would simply have a different set of actions/traits from the Role Actions to allow you to do that different role. (Also, keep in mind that some jobs would not make sense to have another role, such as Ninja as I've seen discussed above)
...of course now I'm thinking of the old joke of Dragoons tanking the floor....
...and possibly tanking a lower floor after accidentally using Evasive Jump and going over the edge...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Muchmidget

Just to throw my 2 cents back in after reading where discussion has gone:
I wasn't thinking of separate jobs off of the base class - everything about the Job's core kit would remain the same. You wouldn't even use different gear (they'd probably have to scale PLD/WAR/DRK gear down defense-wise to balance it out while going as dps). You would simply have a different set of actions/traits from the Role Actions to allow you to do that different role. (Also, keep in mind that some jobs would not make sense to have another role, such as Ninja as I've seen discussed above)
...of course now I'm thinking of the old joke of Dragoons tanking the floor....
...and possibly tanking a lower floor after accidentally using Evasive Jump and going over the edge...

---

The gear wouldn't be the problem, because the DPS job from GLA, wouldn't be able to wear fending/tank gear it would have to wear maiming or striking gear, depending of the style of the job.
Also Reynhart showed how to rework GLA to make a DPS offspring possible, even if i think that a basic tank stance for the classes should be available via the role skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

The gear wouldn't be the problem, because the DPS job from GLA, wouldn't be able to wear fending/tank gear it would have to wear maiming or striking gear, depending of the style of the job.
Also Reynhart showed how to rework GLA to make a DPS offspring possible, even if i think that a basic tank stance for the classes should be available via the role skills.

---

Yeah, just as scholar and smn don't use the same gear, a dps splitting off of gladiator wouldn't wear tank gear.

Though I don't see this happening I'm pretty sure all new jobs added will be new jobs from the ground up. As much as I would like a job that used a longsword as dps. (I don't like katanas as much, and drk swords are too crazy oversized generally for me to be into them.)

Part of that is more my dislike of job specific weapons. Sure it leads to some cool stuff like how red mage rapeirs and focuses work, but generally I'd prefer my paladin to be able to use a one handed sword, mace or axe etc. But I guess this is kind of a FF staple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

Neither nor. Roman Legions

---

Roman legions didn't have tanks, healers and DPS :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

even if i think that a basic tank stance for the classes should be available via the role skills.

---

The issue with this is that all tank stances would be exactly the same, which would only make them bland. My personal gripe against Dark Knight is that Grit is just another name for Shield Oath.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Roman legions didn't have tanks, healers and DPS :p

---

The same could be sayed for every source of inspiration in the real world and even for most fantasy worlds :p
I have to correct myself, but i will do this in another post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

The issue with this is that all tank stances would be exactly the same, which would only make them bland. My personal gripe against Dark Knight is that Grit is just another name for Shield Oath.

---

But this would only be for the classes, jobs could get their own unique tank stances, maybe even a more powerfull variant.
Edit:
Also it is more important how the stance works with the tool kit and PLD and DRK have their stances like independent skills with no real interaction with the toll kit.
The stances on every tank can all be the same as long as the interaction with the tool kit sets them appart from each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

That's not the proper use of "antiquated". Entertainment does not ever get "out of fashion" and for something to be outdated there needs to be a modern version that is superior.

In other words, for the sub-job system you speak of to be viably considered antiquated, there needs to be a different kind of sub-job system that is more user-friendly/enjoyable. You cannot say that the sub-job mechanic itself is antiquated, ever, without being plain wrong.

---

When a superior system replaces an older one of the same type, the older becomes 'obsolete'. That is the word I would have used if there was a current subjob system in FFXIV that is replacing an inferior version. You need to understand that I never stated that the subjob system is a flawed design. It did work well in FFXI and other games for all intents and purposes. I just personally didn't like it. That bias has no bearing on why I used antiquated, because this system IS old, outdated, behind the times; and hell, I'll use obsolete too. When it was a system of FFXI, whose release date is now well over a decade ago and is not a system of FFXIV; is it indeed all of the afore mentioned.

Quote:

---

I on the other hand like this system and it irked me that the "necessity" in FFXIV was so low when I begun playing. I always wanted the multiple classes to be more tied together, not less. And they completely removed it...I say, what's the point of making a Final Fantasy game and then remove the very thing that makes Final Fantasy series games different from rank and file RPG's?! This is not Final Fantasy game in anything but name. It's a good RPG with good story, but it have nothing that makes Final Fantasy what it is beyond that and some aesthetics. Not even skill effects are anywhere near other Final Fantasy titles.

---

Fair enough, but you know why they removed it, right? If you understand why, then you should understand why the subjob system just won't work. I mean, they can put it in and do the best to keep things balanced and playable, fun and all that jazz, but at the end of the day the meta is going to throw out any customization you find the most "fun" if it isn't the most optimal.

Quote:

---

No, it's not nostalgia. It's entertainment. If I'd say that I cannot understand how anyone can still want RPG's in this day and age when all the rage is Battle Royale, Idle games, mobile strategy games and MOBA games, I'd be rightfully laughed at. You are doing the exact same here, completely dismissing a core concept that simply cannot become outdated.

---

But before that, you said this...

Quote:

---

It's a good RPG with good story, but it have nothing that makes Final Fantasy what it is beyond that and some aesthetics.

---

That IS the core concept of Final Fantasy. A good RPG. A good Story. FFXIV has amazing visuals, effects, and aesthetics. Beautifully drawn characters and landscapes. Great music that captures the moment. The ability to take your character and immerse him or her into this fantasy and grow strong and powerful over time. If you think this game misses the core concept of FF, I am more inclined to say that it is actually you. Especially if you are pushing for a subjob system as if this FEATURE in a FF title serves as its foundation. I could say the same about the job system, but not every FF game has had this system. And if my memory serves me correctly, the FF titles that had a true job system were always far less customizable than the games without it.

Quote:

---

the rest...

---

Ok, for the remainder of your post, I am not even quite sure what you're on about. I know it's a daydreaming thread so pretty much anything goes. To close, I will say that there are things about FFXIV that I am not a big fan of, and I have my own ideas I would love implemented into the game. I am but one voice in the community, but the dev team has their own visions and the means to bring them to fruition. All I can do is hope the make the right decisions to keep the game as enjoyable as possible for everyone who subs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Roman legions didn't have tanks, healers and DPS :p

---

They have.
The tanks are the legionaires, shield and spear, they bind enemy advances and try to position them for their own advantage.
DPS are essentially all supporting battle units like archers, chariots, cavallery and war engines like ballistas and catapults.
Healers are the support lines to reinforce the man power and bring in rations and materials.

The same can be said for modern military.
Tanks and infantery are in the tank role. Advancing, binding, enemy positioning.
DPS are all others in form of artillery, bomber, helicoters and special forces.
And the healer role is in the support lines, hospitals, workshops etc.

So the trinity system can be applied on military forces just not on a scale like in an trinity based MMO.

Tanks: high endurance and self sustain, binding enemies and position them.
DPS: high destructive output, highly vulnearable
Healer: recovery and support