Weekly Savage Dungeon

Hello!

A lot of players have requested more difficult dungeon content and it sparked an idea in my head.

While we do have a form a daily and weekly challenges to complete, I think SE could expand on this to include a random, beefed up, savage level dungeon for us to challenge on (at least) a weekly basis.

We all know the devs are under a heavy work load and re-tuning a new dungeon every week would require extra manpower. My suggestion in this regard, though I have no idea how the game operates internally, would be something along the lines of code that can read a particular dungeon's data and adjust the raw values up to (let's say) item level 370 average and create a new instance based on the new variables. A few test runs would be in order and fine adjustments made from there. Ideally there should be a way to automate as much as possible to keep the devs from spending "too much" time on something like this. Least I'd hope.

I don't know how feasible any of that is, or there could certainly be more efficient ways to accomplish such. I just wonder if something along these lines would interest the community. So here is my post.

Would you even be interested in running such content?

(I think something like this would be a nice and fun addition to the game, just something extra to do after capping tomes and getting weekly clears. Can't go wrong with more content.. Well wait.. I guess they can >.>)

Would there have to be a nice or unique reward to entice you to challenge it every week?

(I don't think I'd need anything extra special to run it, challenge for challenge sake is fun sometimes. I wouldn't expect top level gear but maybe some unique minion or glamour in addition to the usual currency would be cool)

Would it be fun/challenging enough if the mobs simply hit hard enough to one-shot you, or would they need to introduce new/modified "mechanics" on top of it?

(Since it may be more difficult to actually modify abilities/mechanics of certain mobs/dungeons.. What if everything was beefed up in general and then an additional new mob was added somewhere in the dungeon, even perhaps with special spawning conditions, so they could add new/challenging mechanics via this new enemy unit?)

I plan on trying to ask this again when the next live letter comes around if there's enough likes. If not, that it speaks for itself I suppose. Either way..

Please discuss!

I think that would be fun. Considering that every dungeon is a snooze fest. Only thing I’d see as a problem would be rewards(maybe drop mats needed for endgame crafts). Also I would not put a savage dungeon on roulette. Making pre made parties would hopefully make it easy to find people who know how to play their jobs(looking at you no song bards).

Grab some buddies, and do naked run of your dungeon of choice. Savage.

The thinly stretched Dec team won't even have to lift a finger.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Grab some buddies, and do naked run of your dungeon of choice. Savage.

The thinly stretched Dec team won't even have to lift a finger.

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That "thinly stretched" dev team is larger than WoW's. Yoshida outright said they have over 400 people working on the game, but lack battle designers. Considering Mythic+ is essentially re-purposing existing assets, you don't need many to make it work. So this excuse they don't have enough people needs to die. They do. They're just afraid to actually do anything difficult.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That "thinly stretched" dev team is larger than WoW's. Yoshida outright said they have over 400 people working on the game, but lack battle designers. Considering Mythic+ is essentially re-purposing existing assets, you don't need many to make it work. So this excuse they don't have enough people needs to die. They do. They're just afraid to actually do anything difficult.

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Do you think their afraid to try something like this because majority of the community is casual?

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Originally Posted by Hugowulf

Do you think their afraid to try something like this because majority of the community is casual?

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To some extent, yes. Unfortunately, it's had the side effect of taking away any incentive to improve. Why push yourself to get better if you can go through the MSQ pressing 1-2-3? When content becomes that easy though, you complete it much faster. And now you're seeing more and more people complaining they have very little to do. This game sorely lacks a middle ground. What they should be working towards is a difficulty curve. Everything starts easier but becomes progressively harder. Imagine if normal mode raids had some teeth to them or dungeons borrowing Deep Dungeon ideas like priority mobs and necessary CC? That gives people who aren't raiders something to work towards. Even if they want to keep "baby" mode. At least develop a midcore level. Sadly, their solution in Stormblood has basically been "nerf EX Primals and Savage!"

It's quite telling when Yoshida laments how Warrior's never want to use Defiance. And to that I ask, "give me a reason to and I will." Swallow's Compass is such a joke, I pull in Deliverance. Even if a mob breaks off to poke a DPS momentarily, the damage is negligible. I appreciate wanting easy content for less experienced players, but things shouldn't be that easy at level 70.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Everything starts easier but becomes progressively harder. Imagine if normal mode raids had some teeth to them...

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So you like vote abandons and doing normal dungeons with your static because duty findering it is a crap shoot? Because that's what happens when you make basic content markedly harder. Did you like rath ex learning parties? That's what you are going to get with a hard dungeon. So every time you level, you are going to have a rath ex experience, i.e. it taking forever to fill, it disbanding due to wipes a lot, and maybe clearing after a full lockout if lucky.

I think you guys assume that hard means "still can beat in a single pull, but i don't fall asleep doing it." The idea that this content might actually be difficult to many people slips by you.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

So you like vote abandons and doing normal dungeons with your static because duty findering it is a crap shoot? Because that's what happens when you make basic content markedly harder. Did you like rath ex learning parties? That's what you are going to get with a hard dungeon. So every time you level, you are going to have a rath ex experience, i.e. it taking forever to fill, it disbanding due to wipes a lot, and maybe clearing after a full lockout if lucky.

I think you guys assume that hard means "still can beat in a single pull, but i don't fall asleep doing it." The idea that this content might actually be difficult to many people slips by you.

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I think you missed the "progressively harder" part. Shinryu is actually a good example of the devs doing this. It's harder than content before it, but not so hard that people can't clear it. It encourages players to get better to be able to clear it. Thordan is a good example of the devs not doing it. That fight is a complete joke. Is it even possible to fail it?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I think you missed the "progressively harder" part. Shinryu is actually a good example of the devs doing this. It's harder than content before it, but not so hard that people can't clear it. It encourages players to get better to be able to clear it. Thordan is a good example of the devs not doing it. That fight is a complete joke. Is it even possible to fail it?

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People were vote abandoning in swarms when Shinryu first came out and for a good amount of time afterward. I ran Trial Roulette every day and constantly saw it. I helped a lot of newbies through it, but not everyone is going to stick around like me. The only thing that scaling up the MSQ is going to do is drive off those who are only in the game for the MSQ. The optional content is there for the challenge.

As for the OP, I think it's a good idea. I wouldn't give it unique drop rewards, but a higher tomestone reward like MSQ Roulette or Alliance Roulette have would be a good incentive to run it.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

People were vote abandoning in swarms when Shinryu first came out and for a good amount of time afterward. I ran Trial Roulette every day and constantly saw it. I helped a lot of newbies through it, but not everyone is going to stick around like me. The only thing that scaling up the MSQ is going to do is drive off those who are only in the game for the MSQ. The optional content is there for the challenge.

As for the OP, I think it's a good idea. I wouldn't give it unique drop rewards, but a higher tomestone reward like MSQ Roulette or Alliance Roulette have would be a good incentive to run it.

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Strange, because I did it a lot and not a single vote abandon happened. A wipe or two and people ended up getting it.

Dungeons are meant to be casual content. That's why it award players with currency to eventually purchase comparable end-game gear to players who can do savage raids and get the drops in much shorter time. Not "gud" enough for savage? Do dungeons and you too can get high-end gear, but you'll be restricted to 0-1 pieces per week. It's a trade off. That said, why make savage dungeons? Savage raids and ultimate raids were implemented to appeal to the 5% of the community that clears them, the normal raids, extreme trials, and dungeons are meant for the rest of the player base.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Strange, because I did it a lot and not a single vote abandon happened.

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You're on Primal. I'm on Aether. We also possibly play at vastly different times. People would take one look at what we got and take the penalty. And once one person does it, others can leave without the penalty.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

So you like vote abandons and doing normal dungeons with your static because duty findering it is a crap shoot? Because that's what happens when you make basic content markedly harder.

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In my ideal scenario it would be for groups of friends who want that particular challenge, not necessarily for "casual" players to repeatedly go in and disband instances because they can't keep up. Realistically it's going to happen anyways, but I don't think that's a good reason to not explore the feasibility of adding something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

That said, why make savage dungeons? Savage raids and ultimate raids were implemented to appeal to the 5% of the community that clears them, the normal raids, extreme trials, and dungeons are meant for the rest of the player base.

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Mainly just because there are a lot of other games that offer dynamic weekly challenges and it's an area that I believe could be better developed in this game to remain relevant moving forward. Like, we have weekly challenges but they are the same every week. I'm just attempting to suggest a little variety, and since there is definitely a segment of the playerbase that does want to experience some sort of savage dungeon content, it seems possible to introduce it in a way that's both easy enough for the devs to stay on top of and varied enough to not bore the player base after a couple of weeks.

Maybe it's just a bad idea, or not "in demand". And that's fine. Just something that crossed my mind and wanted to throw it out there.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I think you missed the "progressively harder" part.

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Do you remember doing that fight new and at min ilvl? Lots of wipes, lots of vote abandons, and its really only tolerable due to massive gear creep. But of course, for everyone here it was one and done, and wasn't hard at all because apparently nothing in this game should be hard for anyone.

Do you really want more of the launch shin/tsuyu/math boss/hashmal experience? Or even harder than that?

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

In my ideal scenario it would be for groups of friends who want that particular challenge, not necessarily for "casual" players to repeatedly go in and disband instances because they can't keep up

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yeah i was responding more to bournes idea that normal stuff should be harder. As for yours, it will end up two weeks and done, probably. Without two healers or tanks what they can do is limited. With the hard content we have, they tend use randomness to make it palatable. Rath charges you randomly, the difficulty of hoh is random enemy movement and placement, etc. A single tank can't really do much; they only have so many cooldowns and no one to tank swap with. A single healer can only heal so much. It would be a lot more fixed in potential.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

You're on Primal. I'm on Aether. We also possibly play at vastly different times. People would take one look at what we got and take the penalty. And once one person does it, others can leave without the penalty.

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eh im on primal too, it was never one and done. The times when four people would wipe on the first tidal wave were too common to be believed. There's this sort of forum bias that everything is easy, which I don't see in game and frustrates me when we try to talk about difficulty.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Do you remember doing that fight new and at min ilvl? Lots of wipes, lots of vote abandons, and its really only tolerable due to massive gear creep. But of course, for everyone here it was one and done, and wasn't hard at all because apparently nothing in this game should be hard for anyone.

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It took me 2 lockouts for me to get through Shinryu, and 1 additional run to be able to do so without being carried. Blanket assessments against the raiders here is not good.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Do you remember doing that fight new and at min ilvl? Lots of wipes, lots of vote abandons, and its really only tolerable due to massive gear creep. But of course, for everyone here it was one and done, and wasn't hard at all because apparently nothing in this game should be hard for anyone.

Do you really want more of the launch shin/tsuyu/math boss/hashmal experience? Or even harder than that?

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Progressively harder. Those experiences are pretty fun, and they push the player to become better. Part of the reason why players struggle with them is because they are rarely challenged. You can just faceroll dungeons. There's almost never any risk, especially if you're not making large pulls, which isn't even how they're designed to be played.

The problem, from my point of view, is that they're generally afraid to make the players fail in the majority of content. And when they suddenly decide to risk making players fail, the players aren't prepared for it.

By making dungeons as easy as they are, the players are only going to be worse when it comes to harder content. Training should start at the low end.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

It took me 2 lockouts for me to get through Shinryu, and 1 additional run to be able to do so without being carried. Blanket assessments against the raiders here is not good.

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i'm just being snarky about the tendency to say that everything is easy. You know it gets said on forums a lot. "Why can't people skip soar? All you have to do is a normal opener." etc.

Takeaway is just remember when you ask for hard things, they will be hard. If not for you, definitely for someone. Making them required is tricky. Making them optional is cool, but even then, savage anything a lot of people seem to struggle with.

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Originally Posted by Hugowulf

Do you think their afraid to try something like this because majority of the community is casual?

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You know that everytime Yoshi uses the term casual he speaks only in terms on time and not player skill right? there's a good amount of casual players out there who would relish upping the base level of difficulty of the game. hell it might actrually feel rewarding then and keep players subscribed...

there's no satisfaction at all clearing content you would quite literally have to go out of your way to fail at.... this is why virtually everyone INCLUDING the casuals find dungeons monotonous and boring..

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It encourages players to get better to be able to clear it.

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It doesn't. WoW already tried that. It doesn't matter if you do it progressively or not - at any difficulty point, there's someone who's gonna fall off, either because they simply hit their skill cap, or because they no longer find it fun and go play sth else. If it was any other way, we could slowly make the entire playerbase beyond Ultimate-ready just by taking perpetual baby steps upward. Good luck trying.

That said, there isn't really an issue with Savage dungeons on paper, whether they or their rewards are time gated or not. If there's an audience for the higher floors of PotD/HoH, there's also an audience for that. The question is only whether the resources required are proportional to the audience covered.

I personally certainly wouldn't participate, because I found that team jumprope isn't my thing and that is all this game is capable of in terms of difficult content. Trying to achieve it PotD style, which would be almost a necessity if you were to automate it, would drive me even further away. That is, unless it gates a reward I desperately want. Then I'd begrudgingly do it and complain on these forums every step on the way, as is custom.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Without two healers or tanks what they can do is limited. With the hard content we have, they tend use randomness to make it palatable. Rath charges you randomly, the difficulty of hoh is random enemy movement and placement, etc. A single tank can't really do much; they only have so many cooldowns and no one to tank swap with. A single healer can only heal so much. It would be a lot more fixed in potential.

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Oh dear, an instance where tanks might actually have to use tank stance :P

But seriously, fair enough points. Damage would have to be limited to what 1 tank/1 healer can handle, and mechanics could only be so "deep". Though I do think there are a number of mechanics that would work with 4 people as they do with 8. Invisible AoEs, debuffs that need to be passed, or things that need to be stood in or interacted with by certain party members at certain times. There are a few enemies that perform telegraphed attacks via their animations instead of the usual cast bar/indicator. But I do agree, it would probably be more limited than what we see in the 8/24 man raids. Maybe..

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It doesn't. WoW already tried that. It doesn't matter if you do it progressively or not - at any difficulty point, there's someone who's gonna fall off, either because they simply hit their skill cap, or because they no longer find it fun and go play sth else. If it was any other way, we could slowly make the entire playerbase beyond Ultimate-ready just by taking perpetual baby steps upward. Good luck trying.

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Now you're just talking business. I'm not. I'm talking about the game-player experience. Losing a player is perfectly acceptable from my perspective. Obviously, it's not something that the business wants.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

So you like vote abandons and doing normal dungeons with your static because duty findering it is a crap shoot? Because that's what happens when you make basic content markedly harder. Did you like rath ex learning parties? That's what you are going to get with a hard dungeon. So every time you level, you are going to have a rath ex experience, i.e. it taking forever to fill, it disbanding due to wipes a lot, and maybe clearing after a full lockout if lucky.

I think you guys assume that hard means "still can beat in a single pull, but i don't fall asleep doing it." The idea that this content might actually be difficult to many people slips by you.

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You mean having dungeons where I have to turn my brain on and can't simply pull the entire room while the DPS spam AoE abilities? Yes. I will gladly take increased failure rates over what we have now. Of course, as per usual, you argue in extremes. Progressive difficulty doesn't mean everything becomes unbearable challenging, but simply scales upwards. A direct equivalent would be campaign modes in single player games where you go from Easy to Normal. If such a curve existed, you aren't going to a constant string of disbands because people will actually have to put forth an effort. When nothing challenges, people get complacent. The reason you see so many mess up Tsukiyomi normal is due to how laughably easy the game between the end of Stormblood up to 4.3. Then out of nowhere, you have an abrupt spike that people aren't expecting. That is FFXIV's issue in a nutshell. Constant, random, spikes of difficulty in lieu of a developed curve.

That's precisely what hard means. Why is that such a bad thing? Need I reiterate for probably the thousandth time now The Vault is a good example of difficulty done well. It isn't Rathalos EX level but it's not something you can sleep through. What a novel concept. If anyone finds Swallow's Compass hard, they are either woefully undergeared or haven't bothered to learn how to play the game. Players like this shouldn't be rewarded.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

People were vote abandoning in swarms when Shinryu first came out and for a good amount of time afterward. I ran Trial Roulette every day and constantly saw it. I helped a lot of newbies through it, but not everyone is going to stick around like me. The only thing that scaling up the MSQ is going to do is drive off those who are only in the game for the MSQ. The optional content is there for the challenge.

As for the OP, I think it's a good idea. I wouldn't give it unique drop rewards, but a higher tomestone reward like MSQ Roulette or Alliance Roulette have would be a good incentive to run it.

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Because the game is piss easy until Shinryu shows up. As I said, when you have sudden difficulty spikes like that, it will create a wall for people who weren't anticipating such a jump. On the other hand, if content grew progressively harder, Shinryu would feel like a natural step. Is it too much to ask casual content actually require two healers?

Even casual players are asking for more. We lost a dungeon because the developers outright admitted people have been finding them boring.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It doesn't. WoW already tried that. It doesn't matter if you do it progressively or not - at any difficulty point, there's someone who's gonna fall off, either because they simply hit their skill cap, or because they no longer find it fun and go play sth else. If it was any other way, we could slowly make the entire playerbase beyond Ultimate-ready just by taking perpetual baby steps upward. Good luck trying.

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There needs to be a balance. If I recall, WoW swung too hard in the opposite direction which will turn just as many people off as making everything super easy. We've seen that first hand.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Damage would have to be limited to what 1 tank/1 healer can handle, and mechanics could only be so "deep". Though I do think there are a number of mechanics that would work with 4 people as they do with 8.

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They could, idk though. I mean, what would this solve that say doubling the amount of savage fights wouldn't? Maybe they should float up one as a trial for testing, as long as it isn't mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

A direct equivalent would be campaign modes in single player games where you go from Easy to Normal. If such a curve existed, you aren't going to a constant string of disbands because people will actually have to put forth an effort.

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..actually people put down games when the effort is too much. That's kind of why easy mode exists now, i think Deus EX Mankind Divided calls theirs "tell me a story," and easy modes specifically are for people who don't want that in games. And there's actually a decent amount of people who use them. Momo had the same argument, assuming that constantly progressing difficulty makes for a fun experience, but a lot of people actually put games down if the difficulty spikes enough or progresses enough. You can't really assume everyone will keep traveling down the road, because people have different requirements and needs.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

i'm just being snarky about the tendency to say that everything is easy. You know it gets said on forums a lot. "Why can't people skip soar? All you have to do is a normal opener." etc.

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Funny that you're using such a dated meme to make reference to a phenomenon that's apparently "getting said on the forums a lot."

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

So you like vote abandons and doing normal dungeons with your static because duty findering it is a crap shoot? Because that's what happens when you make basic content markedly harder. Did you like rath ex learning parties? That's what you are going to get with a hard dungeon. So every time you level, you are going to have a rath ex experience, i.e. it taking forever to fill, it disbanding due to wipes a lot, and maybe clearing after a full lockout if lucky.

I think you guys assume that hard means "still can beat in a single pull, but i don't fall asleep doing it." The idea that this content might actually be difficult to many people slips by you.

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Or, and hear me out here, they could make casual content incrimentally more difficult instead of going from 0 to 120 in a single instance.

I personally wouldn't mind some wipes in casual content. I see them now even with the abysmal state of things because there are some players out there that are just really, really bad. Those people who literally do not care will likely remain that bad. Its a bell curve though - most sit in the middle without knowing it.

I know that you're a competent player. I would bet that most instances you're in could handle more difficulty without approaching the threshold for a wipe and I think you know that as well.

This constant discussion about increasing the difficulty in casual content is really just about what we all see as the greater good. I think I can speak for a lot of the people who tend to have this debate with you when I say that I genuinely believe the potential gains in average player skill as well as the 'fun level' (arbitrary as that may be) of having more to do than spam Holy/Stone IV are worth the occasional wipe or even disband that might come with reasonable increases to content difficulty.

I don't expect you to change your mind but I wish you would consider the idea of small increases in difficulty over time, if you honestly look at it with an open mind I don't think you can poke any holes in it as a suggestion. No one is saying every leveling dungeon should be Shinryu on patch day but if things at level cap hit a bit harder or a bit faster to encourage at least some sense of urgency I don't think it would spell doom for even the most casual of players.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Funny that you're using such a dated meme to make reference to a phenomenon that's apparently "getting said on the forums a lot."

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It was when it is relevant. People were saying "oh, Tsuku/shin is easy, its all mechanics you've seen before!" if you want a more current one. I do notice on forums the default seems to be "stuff is too easy" rather than otherwise, because people ironically are modest about their own skill and think everyone can do anything if they just put their mind to it..

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I know that you're a competent player. I would bet that most instances you're in could handle more difficulty without approaching the threshold for a wipe and I think you know that as well.

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Thank you for saying that. I don't think it would still be fun. I would not play any of my weaker jobs in that kind of content. If there is decent risk and urgency (i.e. you dont one-shot it at launch) I wouldn't be using something like MCH or BLM, jobs where it would be a burden to do. Like I don't tank in 24 mans for that reason, and I dislike tanking in dungeons too. The easiness lets me try jobs I wouldn't ordinarily try. Otherwise I'm just picking my couple of strongest jobs.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

They could, idk though. I mean, what would this solve that say doubling the amount of savage fights wouldn't? Maybe they should float up one as a trial for testing, as long as it isn't mandatory.

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I wasn't really thinking of it as anything mandatory, just an extra weekly challenge to throw into the mix for those who'd be interested. Doubling the amount of savage fights would indeed add more challenging content, but I think that's a bit much for the purpose of this suggestion. You can already spend an ungodly amount of time trying to clear the savage turns each week, I wouldn't necessarily want to "double" the time spent raiding.

The other thing is like, until the raids are unlocked you are pretty much tied to raiding with your static group. I certainly have, over the years, wanted to "raid" people who are in my FC, but also they're in their own static, so it's impossible to really ever raid with them unless we happen to be progging the same content when the main group isn't. So having a separate challenge like this might do some good towards strengthening those types of bonds with your FC and LS mates

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It was when it is relevant. People were saying "oh, Tsuku/shin is easy, its all mechanics you've seen before!" if you want a more current one. I do notice on forums the default seems to be "stuff is too easy" rather than otherwise, because people ironically are modest about their own skill and think everyone can do anything if they just put their mind to it..

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I actually find all the 24 alliance stuff to be moderately challenging for everything after (not including) Void Ark.

Maybe we should start using different terms. There's "easy" and then there's "faceroll." That's what our dungeons are, faceroll, and have been since pretty much ever. You could probably clear the majority of our dungeon content without ever using any abilities at all, just auto-attacks. That's the kind of content that I have a problem with.

Savage/Extreme/Ultimate content is on a different level. Those require you to know you how to play your job well, optimal rotations, good reaction times, and team communication. I don't think we need to go that far for the majority of content.

What I do think is that the majority of players can reach the middle tier of content if the devs would simply require it of them, and that's where I believe the majority of content should build up towards and then probably stay at about that difficulty level.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It was when it is relevant. People were saying "oh, Tsuku/shin is easy, its all mechanics you've seen before!" if you want a more current one. I do notice on forums the default seems to be "stuff is too easy" rather than otherwise, because people ironically are modest about their own skill and think everyone can do anything if they just put their mind to it..



Thank you for saying that. I don't think it would still be fun. I would not play any of my weaker jobs in that kind of content. If there is decent risk and urgency (i.e. you dont one-shot it at launch) I wouldn't be using something like MCH or BLM, jobs where it would be a burden to do. Like I don't tank in 24 mans for that reason, and I dislike tanking in dungeons too. The easiness lets me try jobs I wouldn't ordinarily try. Otherwise I'm just picking my couple of strongest jobs.

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Almost everyone has a level of difficulty at which they narrow the scope of jobs they'll use to what they're comfortable with, I think that's normal. That place is still relative to the content you're used to doing though.

I didn't do Savage at the start of SB and didn't even venture into EX for quite a bit. When I did I would only go on WHM. Other than leveling new classes I would only play WHM. I stepped into EX on WHM and started trying some DPS in Rabanastre to shake things up. At this point I've cleared o8s (omg so thankful for my group) and my 'comfy zone' for playing things other than WHM/RDM has expanded from virtually nothing to me tanking Ridorana. I am an awful tank.

I know not everyone wants to raid or even do EX trials and that's totally fine but I think you would be surprised what completing slightly harder content will do for your confidence as a player in general.

Right now the difficulty spikes are absolutely massive (normal raids/24man to EX is huge and EX to Savage is even worse if you don't count ShinEX) and so jumping up the gap is hard or takes good friends to offer a hand. I was lucky to have a supportive FC with some good players in it and some great friends from the forums who helped me get into some of that stuff. Miste specifically joined a second raid group to help teach me Sigma, she's a peach <3

I'm sorry for the ramble. I guess the tl;dr of all of this is that you don't know what you can do until you try. I'm not special in this, virtually the entire casual playerbase would be capable of these same things in my shoes. Not all want to go that far, that's perfectly fine, but to suggest that we can't move the goalpost just a bit further as the game progresses just doesn't fit in with what I've seen happen as a casual player. Anything that might help teach people that they're capable of advancing seems like a plus to me and I'm sure people would acclimatize as we go so long as we don't suddenly make Expert Roulette into Ultimate. I would hate that too.

Yes! BUT it needs good rewards (stuff at current savage gear AT THE SAME PATCH as Savage gear is released, but with lower drop rate or even by an own currency that drop maybe 1 or 10 per run with a piece costing something like x20-x50 times the amount you get per run per piece) and maybe even mount rewards to justify the difficulty. It also needs to NOT be weekly locked as this sort of content exists in WoW as an option to get good gear that is not dependent on having a static group.

If stuff like this does not have good rewards behind it people will run it once and be done with it, which means that even if the content is great it will be dead within a couple of weeks.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Dungeons are meant to be casual content. That's why it award players with currency to eventually purchase comparable end-game gear to players who can do savage raids and get the drops in much shorter time. Not "gud" enough for savage? Do dungeons and you too can get high-end gear, but you'll be restricted to 0-1 pieces per week. It's a trade off. That said, why make savage dungeons? Savage raids and ultimate raids were implemented to appeal to the 5% of the community that clears them, the normal raids, extreme trials, and dungeons are meant for the rest of the player base.

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Yes, because only people who have a life with a static schedule and therefore are able to form a static are good players, or who can pug for 10h per day to maybe get a group capable of beating the content while its still relevant. Just because you consider finding 7 other good people to play with at a given time fun and challenging content and a bar which gudness is locked behind doesn't make it so.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That "thinly stretched" dev team is larger than WoW's. Yoshida outright said they have over 400 people working on the game, but lack battle designers. Considering Mythic+ is essentially re-purposing existing assets, you don't need many to make it work. So this excuse they don't have enough people needs to die. They do. They're just afraid to actually do anything difficult.

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I evaluate a company's work load capacity based on number of employees, equipment, departments, etc. for a living. Capacity and availability are not the same thing. 400 means squat when you need 410, or lack resources because you have only a certain number of employees and or equipment that can perform a certain task. Such factors can skew your overall capacity if you look at it from purely a number of employees perspective. So when you say "they do", you actually don't really know unless you're in those offices along with Yoshida looking at the numbers.

Resources also involve more than just the number of employees you have working for a company, so when I say "thinly stretched" not only do I think of the dev team, but also the amount of resources available to them, and resources cost tons of money.

This is all beyond my original point though, which really wasn't meant to be taken all that seriously in the first place because I was pretty much just brushing off the idea of savage dungeons.

I'd love OPs idea but unfortunately, as long as fellow players make excuses for themselves, others and SE, we'll never get anything like it or anything to make the game better. This is how you end up with liveletters with 20 minutes of new content and 1h30 of NPC design talk folks...

Dungeons already get gradually harder as you go through them while still being manageable, it's just once you get to the end game ones, they just plummet and you're basically back to square one.