DoH need major changes just like battle classes

As someone who mainly focuses on battle classes, but have levelled up many crafters/gatherers to lv.60, it's easy to say that crafters have it much harder than common adventurers.

However after 4.0, surprisingly much work was done to battle classes to get rid of the past's mistakes such as the necessity of cross class skills and to put some classes more in line with each other.

I believe these are really great changes, but I'm disappointed these weren't put across to crafters.

Crafters face many similar problems to battle classes. Cross class skills are absolutely necessary which means you'd have to spend much more time levelling up many classes. You'd also want to level up multiple crafters due to many materials being required from other disciplines.

Crafters need the same treatment as battle classes. I would argue all crafters should be given the same skill set as there really isn't a good reason why one class should have different skills when crafters are all essentially the same (hopefully one would agree carpentry is the same as blacksmithing in this game).

Also if recipes weren't so dependent on so many other crafting classes, players could feel more inclined to just focus on levelling up their favorite crafting class instead of omnicrafting. Of course omnicrafters are still welcome just like how players may level up multiple battle classes, but it shouldn't feel necessary.

If you compare DoH to botany/mining, you'll see how botany/mining is much easier. Same skills. They essentially do the same thing. And to level one, you don’t need to level the other.

This is what crafting should feel like. Unfortunately crafting has continued to tread along the old path to sink as much time as possible and it’s clear that battle classes are much more focused on. Part of this focus needs to be turned towards crafters and I believe the treatment which battle classes have received paves a clear path for crafting to be improved.

I'd like to hear from very experienced crafters in this community. Do you enjoy levelling up all of your crafting classes? Or would you prefer that players can have more of a choice to specialize in one craft and not have to feel compelled to level everything else?

All 60+ DoH here - one of the many gillionaires whose fortunes have come from crafting. (I'll hit all 70s this weekend; I focused on my DoH classes first.)

1. Do you enjoy leveling crafting classes?

I did, but I like leveling in general. I also greatly enjoy the side stories while leveling, although some are better quality than others.

It's a grind, but the prize at the end is limitless wealth, a worthy aim. And I'm not even Ul'dahn.

2. Should players be allowed to specialize in one craft and not be forced to level everything else?

The specialist system already exists, but the skills are completely useless, and if there is anything that needs an overhaul, it's this. Nobody uses the whistles because they are far too dependent on RNG, and the skills you get from 61+ now make them virtually worthless.

They unified the skill set from 61+ so that all crafters have access to the same basic kit, and this kit is going to be almost all you need to make a HQ item from NQ ingredients if you've been keeping up with your gear. Of course, GETTING to 60 is still a pain in the ass if you haven't done all the classes.

I disagree that they should dummy down crafting like they did the battle classes, though. It's one of the strongest parts of this game and one of the systems that makes it stand out completely from other games in the genre. You can live your whole life as a crafter with a single battle class, which is what a few folks in my FC do.

I consider myself a goldsmith main of the crafts. It's one of my three specialist crafters, and I'm currently gunning for the title of "Master Goldsmith." (Only two thousand more items to go.... oy vey.)

But because I use crafting as a means of making gil - and lots of it - I have all the other crafts leveled up too, to minimize my investment. I think that's fair - you don't NEED gil in this game, any more than you need to craft. (And even non crafters will eventually accumulate a few tens of million gil just selling rare ingredients to crafters... ahem.)

I really disagree that Crafting Classes should be treated the same as battle classes. You can do the Ixali tribes for your crafters and gatherers, and daily turn ins. When end game crafting and gathering got nearly the same treatment as Battle Classes with end game currency with weekly caps, it felt more frustrating. I'm soooooooooo glad they took it a step back with Stormblood. FFXIV's crafting system is one of the better systems out there, but people tend to lose focus that this is supporting content, not exactly main content even if at times I enjoy it more than battles.

Making other jobs dependent upon each other is good. When it was hogged up by all omnicrafters in ARR this wasn't that fun. Now everyone has a chance at the market.

I have all of crafters at 70. They did put this work in. Crafting is much easier now, and many cross class skills now have -some- kind of analogous skill that doesn't require cross-class. I don't need so many anymore. Crafting is fine, if anything it's too easy rn. Leveling crafters was a lot easier for me this time around as well.

Let's be real here, it's not like you pretty much need other crafters for anything when you're crafting your one item. By that I mean not them making the mats, but unlike battle content where you're actively working as a team, this is more passive with crafting. You don't need another crafter if you have leveled everything up. End game battle you need party members for those weapons/gear period. You can "solo" play without knowing ppl in dungeons, but you can solo play period with crafting if you got the gil.

You cannot make crafting analogous to battle unless there's active content that demands a party of 4 crafters (besides workshops).

Worse off, Once you figured out a rotation in crafting with no RNG, that's it, you can macro it. You can't do that in battle. There is no change, whereas if I went into battle with a different role ie healer/tank/dps where I was not in the same role I would have to change it up and do mechanics accordingly.

That doesn't mean I hate crafting, but too many of these topics want crafting to be compared to battle classes and there are way more variables in battle versus crafting. I love crafting in this game (gathering moreso) but this is pretty static once you figured out the rotation in end game and can macro it, and afk a bit...

I would much prefer the DoH classes remaining as they are. I like cross-class skills and wish they had kept them for the DoW/DoM classes as well.
I like that leveling one class actually makes a difference for other classes - unlke the DoW/DoM classes where they might almost be different characters

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Let's be real here, it's not like you pretty much need other crafters for anything when you're crafting your one item. By that I mean not them making the mats, but unlike battle content where you're actively working as a team, this is more passive with crafting.

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have you leveled any crafting to 60 yet? this is where specialists came into play to help with that type of play style. players can waste scripts to switch between specialists or train up other characters too but it in the end was supposed to make the crafters not self dependent where they can do everything.

I see no need for crafting to be similar to battle content because the only role crafters play is supply and demand which brings in market pvp. Also with regards to making all the crafters use the same skills I'd rather not see that happen (insert random real world example of crafting job techniques) and this game to some point is emulating that fact which is one of the things i like.

Personally I think they are fine as is. Maybe over look some of the mentions above for tweaks but that's it. I could have been 60 or even 70 on a lot of my classes already but I have kids so I can't be on the game all the time. For that reason I am thankful for the moogle quests. I already had my crafts all to 50 before the first beast dailies were added to help in leveling but I'm sure they were helpful to a lot of folks too. My only real question is if they'll add a beast tribe for crafting leveling to the new expansion. If not that's fine but I think it's a nice touch and allows some of us casuals to still level the crafts without grinding leves. ^^ While no I am not part of the rush on new crafting patterns and materials.. I don't level the crafts to make gil off of them. My only real focus in leveling them is for cosmetics for myself or my fc mates and housing decor.

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Originally Posted by vio_p

have you leveled any crafting to 60 yet?

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If you look at my lodestone you'll see I'm all 70 Crafters and Gatherers. I was end game crafter in HW often the raid crafter and cook. I was already 50 everything in ARR as well. people got around specialists by creating alts and using players as mules to funnel mats between their alts. It was like Eorzean's version of Breaking Bad. So it wasn't like it really discouraged others in the end, like I said it was passive dependency, not active.

I didn't dislike the idea of locking specialist crafts, but materials like Luminous Fiber, Star Velvet, the base components, never should have been locked. Only the finished pieces.

Some good ideas, some bad.

Rather than single-class crafters being punished by lack of abilities, a better implementation would probably include, rather than removing the need for cross class entirely, but giving single-class crafters a set of abilities equivalent to what we'd see with cross class abilities. Quite like what we saw with Byregot's Blessing, and Byregot's Brow, and similarly to what they almost done with Rapid Synth II, Careful Synth III, and Hasty Touch II. At least then maybe we'd have avoided the seriously OP abilities we got 66+

Recipes really need to come down to requiring crafts from other classes, like having a LTW item on a WVR crafted piece. I really need not explain more but rather than just say a little sense would cover the explanation. You wouldn't exactly see an axe made of items strictly from BSM, you'd still have the haft/handle made from lumber. That much is inescapable. It wouldn't just spawn itself in, or magically appear.

I do enjoy levelling up all crafts, in fact, so much I done it twice, but that's besides the point. again, I do agree that in terms of cross class it shouldn't feel as much as a necessity as it was in end game ARR, HW, or partially as it was in Stormblood. They have made a tread in the right direction I think, but Initial Preparations should've been buffed I feel. For example, with our current set of abilities in Stormblood:

Have Initial Preparations to be a stacked action. Using the action requires 50-76CP, can only be used in the first step of the craft, but grants 2-3 stacks of use. First stack could be used on, say Speciality: Reflect, then in the later craft, or midway, consume a second stack by using refurbish (Would be the equivalent of how many Comfort Zones you had in higher level crafts. Then an additional ability, one that lowers the recipe complexity/level by, say, for the next 4 steps of the craft.

I still do think that omnicrafting shouldn't be made entirely obsolete, which is an impression I got for some of the suggestions, as ultimately, that effort shouldn't go unrewarded, so the ability to craft almost anything you want without using the marketboard is good, and having a nice set of cross-class is nice. But again, going by my second paragraph I do believe the specialist ability set could do with some improvements, but otherwise how they've come from Heavensward-to-Stormblood is a major step in the right direction IMO

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I didn't dislike the idea of locking specialist crafts, but materials like Luminous Fiber, Star Velvet, the base components, never should have been locked. Only the finished pieces.

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Locking recipes of any sort accomplished nothing except hurt the mid-tier crafter. Most omni-crafters simply leveled a second or even third character just to get around it, thus the portion of the playerbase SE wanted to halt were the only ones take advantage.

I would hesitate to say "most" omni crafters leveled alts to get around the restriction. I knew exactly one person who had alts for that purpose, and I know a lot of crafters. I'm sure there was more than just my one person but I'd argue the majority of people found it a lot easier to just find a specialist they needed as opposed to going through all the hoopla of not only leveling your character up as a battle class so you could get to the quests you needed (since the specialist quest is in Ishgard), but also leveling all their crafts, probably through expensive grinding unless you really want to wait on leve allowances, and then gearing those ones as well.

I don't think it was a terrible idea to give some sort of unique identity to your specialist focused classes. Having EVERY recipe be specialist locked was a terrible idea, but having some isn't. And that combined with the strategy of unlocking them at the next tier does not really sound that horrible. I realize this is an unpopular opinion, but if you're choosing to focus on these certain crafts, it feels like there should be some tangible benefit beyond "here's some different buttons that are extremely awkward to use, and a little bit of extra Control and Craftsmanship."

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I would hesitate to say "most" omni crafters leveled alts to get around the restriction. I knew exactly one person who had alts for that purpose, and I know a lot of crafters.

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My wife and I both did it. Three omni-crafters characters each.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

My wife and I both did it. Three omni-crafters characters each.

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Yes but that is a confirmational bias.

Elamys is hesitant because there isn't exactly mathematical data actually supporting this claim other than "word of mouth".

I have heard of a few here and there who went ahead and had alts to get around the recipe restrictions imposed by the HW iteration of the Specialist system. That said, I too am hesitant to suggest that many or most omnicrafters bothered with doing that.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

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I know plenty who do, though perhaps most is too strong. I would say enough as it doesn't take many hardcore crafters to completely dominate. It's also why I suspect the devs abandoned recipe restrictions if they, indeed, have.

The other issue with Specialist is it doesn't really accomplish anything except to gate you. If they do return and I don't feel like leveling my alt, I'll just mass produce materials before switching. Only people who prefer just picking up and crafting are hindered by this system. I'll admit, locking the end product is far better than the mats to make it, especially when some required four Specialists, but I just don't see the value. It doesn't provide much identity when you just switch Specialist based on market demands. Today I'm a expert chef; tomorrow a blacksmith. The new Specialist abilities are actually fairly strong, albeit undervalued since recipes aren't at all challenging right now.

It is kind of a moot point now. It's unlikely SE's gonna go back to the old system. I guess the big problem is how underwhelming the system feels.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

It is kind of a moot point now. It's unlikely SE's gonna go back to the old system. I guess the big problem is how underwhelming the system feels.

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I'm hoping they'll make the CP cost higher for either Prudent or Manip II, the abilities in itself aren't a major issue but it's just so little CP cost for something so good. Well, I guess the upside is, I can't see it scaling to 3* as it has with 1/2*. Then again.... It'll probably just necessitate the double Patient Touch.

As much as I've trashed it to my FC, and in some places on here, I must admit it feels good not failing Hasty Touches

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Originally Posted by Catwho

All 60+ DoH here - one of the many gillionaires whose fortunes have come from crafting. (I'll hit all 70s this weekend; I focused on my DoH classes first.)
1. Do you enjoy leveling crafting classes?
I did, but I like leveling in general.. (And even non crafters will eventually accumulate a few tens of million gil just selling rare ingredients to crafters... ahem.)

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Ewww Cathy, back to ZAM with the other narcissists!

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Locking recipes of any sort accomplished nothing except hurt the mid-tier crafter. Most omni-crafters simply leveled a second or even third character just to get around it, thus the portion of the playerbase SE wanted to halt were the only ones take advantage.

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I wanted to make a post like this, they really should abolish the specialist system, it does nothing to curb anything. It just hurts the "mid-tier" as you said, since hard core will make alts. I never liked it, it does not fulfill the goals why it was placed and it is actually hurting the wrong group that it was meant to target. What where they thinking?!!?!?!? It actually does the reverse, it only puts hard core at a GREATER advantage then it would without a spec lock. Then it also hurts the uninformed, those that always ask "what is best to spec in?" How are we supposed to answer when the econ changes hourly because gil is worthless?

As one who leveled all my crafters to 70, I would say that the current difficulty is nice as in they actually allow crafters at all level to earn gils. I doubt players will be buying mat to progress in crafting if the difficulty is lower.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I know plenty who do, though perhaps most is too strong. I would say enough as it doesn't take many hardcore crafters to completely dominate. It's also why I suspect the devs abandoned recipe restrictions if they, indeed, have.

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Personally I would say it was a Balmung/Greg thing to do that. The edge on a smaller server is not there, as you will likely never get enough of a return for investing in it. People generally would just work within FC's for it, meaning there costs are the same as somone with alts.

The last thing crafting needs is to be made more accessible. It's fine as is. If anything, it should be less accessible, since that's the only way items actually have value.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

The last thing crafting needs is to be made more accessible. It's fine as is. If anything, it should be less accessible, since that's the only way items actually have value.

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No thanks, the crafting mafia can go home. I like seeing friends enjoy crafting now that it's more accessible. We don't need Gordias Crafting extreme. Not healthy for the game at all. There are plenty of mats that have value. Just because not everything is in the millions doesn't mean it won't sell. Play the market smarter, not make it harder.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

No thanks, the crafting mafia can go home. I like seeing friends enjoy crafting now that it's more accessible. We don't need Gordias Crafting extreme. Not healthy for the game at all. There are plenty of mats that have value. Just because not everything is in the millions doesn't mean it won't sell. Play the market smarter, not make it harder.

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Asinine tripe. All you have are vapid platitudes. You can't just endlessly "play smarter" to make up for lost value when SE implements a design that's too accessible and recipes that are too undesirable. The value simply isn't there. The efficiency is simply not there. Your time will always be converted into gil at a lower rate, and while knowing what to do can mitigate it to some extent, it cannot simply pick itself up by the bootstraps and overcome bad design. The value of the items comes from scarcity and desirability and since this time around SE decided to make crafting utterly trivial and only added items that have very little value, since they were released well after the launch of easily farmed content dropping similar items, the value simply isn't there. It's not even a week into the the release of Master V books and the things they make have already tanked due to both over competition and lack of demand. Nobody is asking for "Gordias Crafting extreme." All I'm saying is that SE should make sure to preserve the value of crafting over appeasing a bunch of lazy people who don't want to put the effort in to get the reward. Like why would I make some armor piece and babysit it just to make 200k because there are six other people making and posting the same thing and hardly anyone is buying them? Crafting needs some exclusivity to maintain its value and right now that's not what's happening. I'm basically looking at a situation where crafting, like gathering before it, isn't worth the time it takes and I should focus entirely on flipping.

I don't exactly agree with that part about battle classes. A lot of raiders complain endlessly when content is made "easier". Those who are late into Savage content face a lot of derision.

I don't think it's a bad thing to have easier crafts, but why not a set of crafts for people who are more dedicated, just like there is in raiding? It could just be stuff like glamour gear for all I care - just give us something, please. I consider myself a crafting main these days, I'd like to see something that makes it worth my time.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Asinine tripe. All you have are vapid platitudes.

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I don't think making a giant essay is proving anything here.

I have still been making steady amounts of income just fine with high profit margins since raid food is still desirable, potions and so forth. The raid gear fell in price quickly in HW too.

The problem is you expected the exact same buying patterns on SB for gear as you did mid HW. So did other crafters, that isn't being smart.

When you rely on the same buying patterns assuming that it should stay that way with exclusivity, it isn't going to work. Especially since this is the first tier of patches.

If anything markets in middle priced items were left vacant.

There weren't many recipes worth doing in the first tier of HW either. It was pretty much glamour because there wasn't good end game gear then either.

What an awful excuse of a crafting system we would have if the crafters didn't require materials from each other. That's what makes the crafting game complex/fun. We are already reduced to one-button cooks and potion makers at end game... no need to make the leveling process feel way too.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

What an awful excuse of a crafting system we would have if the crafters didn't require materials from each other. That's what makes the crafting game complex/fun. We are already reduced to one-button cooks and potion makers at end game... no need to make the leveling process feel way too.

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I have so much fun jumping from one DoH to another to craft sub-components each time I do it! Something like that only makes sense when you can only be one DoH, right now it's a minor annoyance not even supported by the MB (you are forced to buy a whole stack instead of the amount you want/need).

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I have so much fun jumping from one DoH to another to craft sub-components each time I do it! Something like that only makes sense when you can only be one DoH, right now it's a minor annoyance not even supported by the MB (you are forced to buy a whole stack instead of the amount you want/need).

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Not going to argue that the MB couldn't use some serious work. You can always buy a stack of stuff then resell the rest once you're done but I agree that's a huge inconvenience.

(Protip to others: Sell stuff in reasonably-sized stacks. You will sell your stuff faster and can charge a bit more for the convenience of selling smaller stacks.)

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

No thanks, the crafting mafia can go home. I like seeing friends enjoy crafting now that it's more accessible. We don't need Gordias Crafting extreme. Not healthy for the game at all. There are plenty of mats that have value. Just because not everything is in the millions doesn't mean it won't sell. Play the market smarter, not make it harder.

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While I am inclined to agree somewhat, the devs went too far. There is not a single recipe that requires much thought. You don't even need VI materia at all. The new abilities are so powerful, I'm able to make things below level 70. This has severely depleted the market, and not just on Balmung. As per usual, the devs overshot. I will say crafting is in a better place now for adjustments than Heavensward, but there should be much harder crafts. Novel aside, Nixxe's point isn't inherently wrong. Too much accessibility diminishes the value each item has.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

While I am inclined to agree somewhat, the devs went too far. There is not a single recipe that requires much thought. You don't even need VI materia at all. The new abilities are so powerful, I'm able to make things below level 70. This has severely depleted the market, and not just on Balmung. As per usual, the devs overshot. I will say crafting is in a better place now for adjustments than Heavensward, but there should be much harder crafts. Novel aside, Nixxe's point isn't inherently wrong. Too much accessibility diminishes the value each item has.

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Sorry for the long post but here's the TL;DR:

1. People need to remember it's good for data centers that need to grow.
2. People need to break out of certain patterns
3. People need to go back and look at past iterations of this patch and realize this was pretty much the same as before, but people got wiser and overshot to compensate for a future problem. Then forgetting that this was the same as before.

You're saying not just on Balmung, but any highly populated server would have the issue in general, not just because the skills seem too easy. On servers with less crafters, it actually became more accessible and a healthier economy. It's not just about the big servers.

The thing that happened is an economical shift in general. This happens when a new generation comes in with a different mindset and are now the prime demographic. Ie Generation X will not spend the same way as a Millennial. The people who want to be first/old power will still get their profits in first because there's always a percentage that does. Other crafters will either stick to old ways and suffer. Or they change their market strategy.

We have posts complaining about mat consumption so some items are still bottlenecked like Worsted Yarn yet people complain about diminished value. Some items are completely being ignored on the market (and I'm not gonna say what since it varies on each server and stating it always messes up the markets lol) since there are those still looking at selling that 1 million dollar item, letting others easily make that amount in a few hours.

Then we go back to people complaining about the crafted gear not needed. It is needed. It just isn't needed as much for end game progression. People who may have had to take a break are no longer overwhelmed in trying to play catch up or told to "Get out" because their ilevel is too low (where players expect people to cap every week). Now that crafted gear is more accessible to catch up players.

The problem is mindset. We've done this for 3 (4 if you really want to count 1.0) iterations of this game now. People expect the same kind of market strategy as the past one. That's not gonna work. People already guessed those patterns and were immediately getting ready to capitalize on it. The Devs probably figured that out and didn't want the same kind of economy that left players frustrated. Smaller servers can grow better now because more people can craft and gather. Players can take more breaks.

The second problem is still part of the first, but we have developed patterns from this mindset. We keep thinking things will be the same but the playerbase is growing, people are easily sharing information, and people know how to look for it as well.

Third problem is people treating this tier as the same as the third or later tier of a previous patch. You didn't need to seriously meld early on either. I remember back in HW people had figured out melds that didn't take extreme overmelding at first either, then when a later patch dropped they fell behind and needed to pentameld. You think those players repeated that mistake and aren't pentamelded now (and then are upset that they didn't need to meld that way to meet stats?..oh how many have forgotten).

At a certain point, I like the reward of receiving gil for my efforts, but I do have to factor in why do I need to amass all that wealth for. Besides some cute glamours the only other item that is going to need massive spending is Housing. So that's not till maybe October?

Overall this is good for a lot more worlds than those that want to keep things the same.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

You're saying not just on Balmung, but any highly populated server would have the issue in general, not just because the skills seem too easy. On servers with less crafters, it actually became more accessible and a healthier economy. It's not just about the big servers.

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This simply isn't the case. At least not in reference to the perceived dilemma. Balmung does have an overabundance of crafters, yes, yet new crafted gear prices didn't plummet within days throughout Heavensward. Why? High level recipes necessitated overmelding. Not a single current craft requires more than a handful of old materia to meet the requirements since you can easily brute force through. Such isn't the result of an economical shift, but a noticeable reduction in recipe difficulty relative to the new abilities. Put plainly, Stormblood crafting is considerably easier. We would have seen this exact trend in Heavensward were there abilities like Rapid Synthesis and Manipulation II.

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We have posts complaining about mat consumption so some items are still bottlenecked like Worsted Yarn

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The complaint with things like Worsted Yarn relates strictly to the sheer volume associated. A fair few crafters want more focus on crafting materials, not hunting mobs on their battle jobs for hours on end because their retainers don't bring enough back per hour.

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The problem is mindset. We've done this for 3 (4 if you really want to count 1.0) iterations of this game now. People expect the same kind of market strategy as the past one. That's not gonna work. People already guessed those patterns and were immediately getting ready to capitalize on it. The Devs probably figured that out and didn't want the same kind of economy that left players frustrated. Smaller servers can grow better now because more people can craft and gather. Players can take more breaks.

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I'll be blunt. You give the devs too much credit. I sincerely doubt they looked into the nuisance of crafting. They changed it for easier accessibility and little else. The stronger abilities were added because they spent two years attempting to make it so you needn't level all your crafters just to be successful. The Specialist system; Red Scrips and etc were all supposed to slow down Omni-crafters while giving players who only wished to focus on a couple crafts a chance to make decent money. It failed spectacularly. Stormblood simplified the whole process by slapping on arguably overtuned abilities that make things like Waste Not II worthless. There was no big economical swing. Just a "dumbing down." Like I said, I don't entirely disagree with the decision. I do, however, feel they went too far in the opposite direction. High level crafting shouldn't be effortless. Right now, it is.

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Third problem is people treating this tier as the same as the third or later tier of a previous patch. You didn't need to seriously meld early on either. I remember back in HW people had figured out melds that didn't take extreme overmelding at first either, then when a later patch dropped they fell behind and needed to pentameld. You think those players repeated that mistake and aren't pentamelded now (and then are upset that they didn't need to meld that way to meet stats?..oh how many have forgotten).

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Heavensward released the craftable AF2 gear during 3.05, which was BiS. Not only have they delayed it with Stormblood, the Yellow Scrip gear equivalent is completely worthless in every way.

The prices DID plummet within days in HW when the third raid tier went out. It's because people "knew the game" by then. The second tier took longer, and there wasn't even a first tier in HW cuz it wasn't worth it. The Devs brought it back and the second time it plummeted fairly fast, and even faster once Rath's rotation became the end game rotation. I find people complaining about Prudent being bad, when most had it figured out using that same rotation all the way through an expansion.

People wanted the first raid tier to be easier. Guess what, it is. Expecting the same market pattern when they were trying to close the gap between players. Sorry, but that already showed they weren't gonna make crafted gear needed as much for that. It's great though for players who missed the weeklies and need catch up gear.

The craftable AF2 gear, most didn't bother with it because they hated the scrip system with caps. People were still wearing white gear UNTIL craftable raid gear was a thing again in HW. The fact they had to change the favors system multiple times because people "Gave up crafting" in HW. So that was another issue.

Once someone figured out a rotation, high level crafting became effortless in about every Xpac, Raths being the biggest offender since the rotation didn't change. The only bottlenecks came from melds. As stated before, RNG doesn't make crafting more difficult for pros, it's artificial. The only way crafting is going to be more challenging is if you had some kind of restrictions like the Ixali quests or a "PoTD" version...where a penalty like "Maximum CP decreased" "Byregot's Blessing Disabled".

No they didn't. I was selling Heavy Metal Axes two weeks after they released for nearly two million a pop-- on a server notorious for its substantially lower prices. What kept those crafts valuable was the meld requirements. You couldn't reach the 995/955 check without Ironworks and proper pentamelds, thus people weren't able to brute force their way through unless they gambled RNG. Currently, you needs only reach the cap on any given craft and it's done. I don't mind the eased difficulty in theory, but it shouldn't spread to every craft available.

And people said Creator was too easy. Hence why they're scaling a separate fight exclusively for the hardcore raiders. There is a difference between easier and effortless. People claiming the current recipes are too easy aren't necessarily saying everything should be an RNG nightmare. They're saying it's so easy, they can macro it and not even pay attention aka effortless.

They did fall for us in the third tier of HW and pretty quick. That's great if your server kept the prices but they definitely took a dive here before. I remember the complaints because other crafters had said they were being undercut heavily. You only had a few days to maximize profits because afterwards everyone else wanted in on the market. There's also the fact if someone undercuts what's deemed as "high demand" items there are a group of high end crafters that will always try to control the market. They'll band together and undercut even further to try to drive those that did mess with the prices even further out of the market. That or they buy out the gear that's lower priced and relist them to keep it artificially high.

I mean there is such thing as price fixing even in this game.

Product still keeps moving, it's just not at the same expected price as before. Some of which is a good thing because more of it moves now.