Wish FF14 would transition to FFE job/skill system

FFE actually feels more like a final fantasy game. I'm not going to defend its grind or lack of story, but its skill and job customization is really nice and would be great to see if FF14 could implement a bit more of that.

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Originally Posted by Taei

FFE actually feels more like a final fantasy game. I'm not going to defend its grind or lack of story, but its skill and job customization is really nice and would be great to see if FF14 could implement a bit more of that.

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Unfortunately, while I agree it is a very rich system... it's also a single-player game and in an MMO that kind of system is killed by two words: Balancing Issues

There's 2 issues that arise when making a system like this in a multiplayer-online game:

First, if you're trying to build a game that works on the 'Trinity' system of Tank/Healer/DPS then you totally destroy it with this type of system. Balancing in this is a nightmare since you have to adjust for every little setup that could possibly come about and it really is entirely unmanageable.

Second, no matter what 'options' you are given for your build, people will show what is mathematically the best build and you will be shunned if you aren't using it hence you really have no options. This is -already- a problem with the Cross-class skill system where specific Cross-class skills are required for specific jobs, and if you choose the wrong ones for whatever reason you're going to be called out on it.

TBH I think the overly infatuation with "balance" in MMOs is what killed the old school feeling of MMOs to begin with. The need for balance causes the developers to have over arching control over the tiniest details of the game. And in order for them to save themselves work, they simplify things. That's why Yoshi-P says that he won't implement more choices for job variation because in the end he believes people will pick the best one. Well that's not really the point is it? The point is to create an environment where people can experiement/play/test builds.

For example MOBAs
LoL and any moba game has a lot of balance issues because of the many many choices to build your character(hots is a bit of an exception). Sure the game is never truly "balanced" but does that keep people from playing the game? Last time I checked it doesn't because MOBAs are the fastest growing genre still.

So I don't buy the argument of balance. I think its bad design philosophy and complacency.

Balance is what killed MMOs honestly. That is why we don't have CC and Support Classes anymore, in the right hands they are OP, so we remove them.

Developers are afraid of players, so they give them as little control of the game as possible.

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Originally Posted by Taei

Tsnip[/URL]

So I don't buy the argument of balance. I think its bad design philosophy and complacency.

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I think the popularity of MOBAs nowadays is that it's more like a sport - teamwork, watchable by an audience, quick fast matches. Easier to market to non-hardcore gamers. ESPECIALLY the viewing aspect
You know what's not interesting to watch? People leveling up a crafter, or doing a dungeon 200 times.

Anyway you can't compare MOBA and MMORPG balance since they are two different genres with different setups. Might as well compare FFXIV and Starcraft or something.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Unfortunately, while I agree it is a very rich system... it's also a single-player game and in an MMO that kind of system is killed by two words: Balancing Issues

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BTW, FF explorers can be played singleplayer, but its not a singleplayer game.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I think the popularity of MOBAs nowadays is that it's more like a sport - teamwork, watchable by an audience, quick fast matches. Easier to market to non-hardcore gamers. ESPECIALLY the viewing aspect
You know what's not interesting to watch? People leveling up a crafter, or doing a dungeon 200 times.

Anyway you can't compare MOBA and MMORPG balance since they are two different genres with different setups. Might as well compare FFXIV and Starcraft or something.

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The point is not to compare MOBA with MMO. The point is that a game that isn't completely "balanced" doesn't necessarily mean its not fun. I think people are forgetting that games are supposed to be fun lol.

They are both technically MMOS.

If FFE has a que or duty system its pretty much an MMO.

Does FFE have a duty finder type system?



FFXIV, like it or not is a single player game where you just see other people and the only multiplayer parts are dungeons/raids.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Unfortunately, while I agree it is a very rich system... it's also a single-player game and in an MMO that kind of system is killed by two words: Balancing Issues

There's 2 issues that arise when making a system like this in a multiplayer-online game:

First, if you're trying to build a game that works on the 'Trinity' system of Tank/Healer/DPS then you totally destroy it with this type of system. Balancing in this is a nightmare since you have to adjust for every little setup that could possibly come about and it really is entirely unmanageable.

Second, no matter what 'options' you are given for your build, people will show what is mathematically the best build and you will be shunned if you aren't using it hence you really have no options. This is -already- a problem with the Cross-class skill system where specific Cross-class skills are required for specific jobs, and if you choose the wrong ones for whatever reason you're going to be called out on it.

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But FFE is built for online multiplayer. Of course it would work as an MMO.

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good. It only exists because WoW became so popular after taking it and everyone, Squeenix included, has been constantly trying to copy their success despite the fact that the reason WoW even chose to use that old system was because it had been fleshed out in other games and had proven the most functional system back in the days of early broadband. Back then you couldn't do a good combat system in an MMO without lag problems, so they used one that would run mostly automatically with minimal player input required. It's boring, outdated, and needs to go.

The second issue you have still only applies to these WoW clones. Since the gameplay is just obfuscated balancing of several numbers, there is a mathematically optimal solution. In a real game sacrificing damage for more reliable cancels, better block/counter abilities, more retaliation options, iframes, etc. is actually valuable and can lead to smoother fights based on your playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They are both technically MMOS.

If FFE has a que or duty system its pretty much an MMO.

Does FFE have a duty finder type system?

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Nope. Explorers doesn't have ques or a duty system.
It mimic's Monster Hunters quest board: Pick a quest, go to the map, do the objectives, and finish and get teleported back to town. You can only do one quest at a time.
You can play multiplayer with up-to-3-other-people via friend codes on the internet or local connection.
Saying Monster Hunters is an MMO just because you can play with people online is like saying Super Smash Bros. or Pokemon are MMOs, and even then, both of those games at least give you the option of playing with random people online.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Nope. Explorers doesn't have ques or a duty system.
It mimic's Monster Hunters quest board: Pick a quest, go to the map, do the objectives, and finish and get teleported back to town. You can only do one quest at a time.
You can play multiplayer with up-to-3-other-people via friend codes on the internet or local connection.
Saying Monster Hunters is an MMO just because you can play with people online is like saying Super Smash Bros. or Pokemon are MMOs, and even then, both of those games at least give you the option of playing with random people online.

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They are MMOs. They are massively multiplayer games.

Any game that is played worldwide and has multiplayer is an MMO.

League of Legends is also an MMO.


Everquest 1, even with its low population is still an MMO. Its not even played world wide.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They are MMOs. They are massively multiplayer games.

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2-4 players =/= massive

They are just multiplayer games

This thread...

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Any game that is played worldwide and has multiplayer is an MMO.

League of Legends is also an MMO.

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http://media1.giphy.com/media/6OWIl75ibpuFO/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Any game that is played worldwide and has multiplayer is an MMO.

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No, just....no. It's not that blanket black and white.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

League of Legends is also an MMO.

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Again, No. Gods I hope you're joking and just being facetious with this comment...

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They are MMOs. They are massively multiplayer games.

Any game that is played worldwide and has multiplayer is an MMO.

League of Legends is also an MMO.


Everquest 1, even with its low population is still an MMO. Its not even played world wide.

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LoL isn't an MMO, it's a MOBA. Totally different classification. Just because a game is played Worldwide -and- has multiplayer features does not make it an MMO. To classify as an MMO a game needs 2 key features: 1) a persistent game world and 2) a large amount of concurrent players inhabiting that world. Note... concurrent players in a persistent world. A large amount of players does not suffice to fulfill the definition or by that right Dark Souls, Bloodbourne and Assassin's Creed 3 are MMOs (which they are decidedly not). Online does not satisfy either since then Mario Kart U is an MMO. There is a vast gulf between a single player game with online multiplayer functionality and an MMO.

For the need of balancing in an MMO, while it does cause issues wherein it makes the jobs feel like they're not very unique, if you don't do it then what you end up with are the OP jobs that everyone clamors to play (looking at you, WAR) and the underpowered ones that people shy away from. With that you end up with a terrible glut of one role and none of another which makes filling out parties even worse then it is now.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They are MMOs. They are massively multiplayer games.

Any game that is played worldwide and has multiplayer is an MMO.

League of Legends is also an MMO.


Everquest 1, even with its low population is still an MMO. Its not even played world wide.

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Huh? Might want to re-think that one..

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They are MMOs. They are massively multiplayer games.

Any game that is played worldwide and has multiplayer is an MMO.

League of Legends is also an MMO.


Everquest 1, even with its low population is still an MMO. Its not even played world wide.

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MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online game.
To count as an MMO, a game needs a massive amount of players, in the same game, in the same area, at the same time.
Explorers, Super Smash Bros, and Pokemon have online-multiplayer but lack numbers.
LoL is a MOBA, a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. Again, it lacks the sheer number of characters in an area at a time.
EverQuest is the only game you have listed that is an MMO.

All right, you want support classes and feel that balance ruined this game? Fine. Devs are going to add a support class for you next expansion. You don't need balance, so whatever, let's add a dozen new classes. The support classes will give the party less damage and healing than before, because they won't bother balancing it. Oh, and you can all play red mages and do mixtures of sub-par healing and sub-par damage, just like a real Final Fantasy game. When your party complains about the choice of class you've made, or your choice of irrelevant cross-class skills, just ignore them. I mean, mmorpgs are still rpgs, and that means they are all about YOUR choices. It doesn't matter if your damage is a third of other classes, class balancing is the bane of mmos.

This thread was serious until this guy opened his mouth.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They are MMOs. They are massively multiplayer games.

Any game that is played worldwide and has multiplayer is an MMO.

League of Legends is also an MMO.


Everquest 1, even with its low population is still an MMO. Its not even played world wide.

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Originally Posted by Taei

TBH I think the overly infatuation with "balance" in MMOs is what killed the old school feeling of MMOs to begin with.

<snip>

So I don't buy the argument of balance. I think its bad design philosophy and complacency.

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I assume you don't bother with PvP, or you wouldn't be using this argument.

I am not sure what you mean by "old school" here. The only MMO I remember that didn't take balance into account was, um, .... nah, forget it. Even WoW started to consider balance after they introduced PvP into the game.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

...

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You say it like SE can't manage a balanced support system. And as everything goes so far, Healers are heal slash dps, tanks are tank/dps, and dps are dps/dps (some support). Adding support would obviously be support/heal/dps, or support/dps. Where's the unbalancy in that?

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Second, no matter what 'options' you are given for your build, people will show what is mathematically the best build and you will be shunned if you aren't using it hence you really have no options. This is -already- a problem with the Cross-class skill system where specific Cross-class skills are required for specific jobs, and if you choose the wrong ones for whatever reason you're going to be called out on it.

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You say it like we don't have a choice but to play with these elitest a-holes. What happened to playing with friends? Balance is what SE has been doing forever. dps numbers would be lowered or increased as "balance" commands it.

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Originally Posted by Callback

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good.

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I enjoy tanking, am indifferent to healing, and find DPS jobs uninteresting and boring. My roommate enjoys healing, has dabbled in tanking, but also hates how boring DPS is. Our friend enjoys minmaxing and killing things faster than should be possible, feels indifferent about tanking, but doesn't enjoy focusing on keeping us alive. We've all tried the different roles, and we've all found a niche gameplay that we enjoy.

I don't think we'd enjoy an MMO that didn't have at least a trinity system in place.

I disagree with your statement. The trinity has made gameplay in MMOs more enjoyable than any shooter I've played.

EDIT: People are also forgetting that FFXIV is an MMORPG - a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE-Playing Game. In almost every RPG out there, different characters fit into different roles. They aren't shoehorned or forced, they just have strengths and weaknesses that separate them from everyone else. The "trinity" system actually goes back to traditional tabletop RPGs and even to the original, from which all that we know and love here has grown: Dungeons and Dragons. People play different roles that have different ways of contributing to group success. But people become so damn focused on numbers and efficiency and mathematical equilibrium that they stop playing a game they enjoy, and start working at a job they pay for. There's so much more to FFXIV and even the MMORPG genre in general than just having equilibrium and balance, and I think it would do good for more people to remember that.

EDIT 2: Even in MOBAs and most shooters, different characters have different roles according to their abilities. Go into any match of HotS without a tank or support class, and your team will not last.

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Originally Posted by Callback

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good. It only exists because WoW became so popular after taking it and everyone, Squeenix included, has been constantly trying to copy their success ...

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Funny, I always thought that the Trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS was developed because otherwise most MMO players would quit after the first dungeon instance when an end-boss threw out a cleave that was higher damage than everyone's health points combined.

If WoW had not become so popular, do you think we would even have MMOs today? It was a pretty small niche market, with only thousands of users playing in any one game.

All that aside -- name a couple of MMORPGs that do not utilize the Trinity [in any fashion] that have any sort of popular following.

Inquiring minds would like to try them out.

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Originally Posted by CompSci88

This thread was serious until this guy opened his mouth.

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I'm just going to assume he's trying to be a troll, seeing as he is praising Explorers as what XIV should be but hasn't touched the game yet... >w>
Best we stop getting sucked in to these discussions... >w>

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

All that aside -- name a couple of MMORPGs that do not utilize the Trinity [in any fashion] that have any sort of popular following.

Inquiring minds would like to try them out.

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Mortal Online, Wizardry (barely) Tera Online (ehh), Blade and Soul, Onigiri and that's what I can come up with. Actually its kinda rough thinking of a game like that if they have an enmity meter there's ultimately a possiblity of anyone being a tank even though you wont need one. I didn't need a tank in wizardry. I just ran around like a b**** setting traps everywhere stunning enemies and stabbing kneecaps with my little character, BUT I could've had a beefy warrior with me taking the damge while he lured the bosses into my traps and stabbed the crap out of his kneecaps......and the warrior later (hehe, loved that game). Tera is pretty solid without a tank I believe, oh and Elsword, and Dungeon Fighter Online. Those games play just fine without a trinity system. But yeah its pretty difficult to name games like that. Even White Knight Chronicles somewhat had a trinity but you didn't really need one if your character was built well and you knew how to use your character enough as well as the players you were with.

Edit: PSO2, wreck things just fine with my Fists of awesomesauce. X)
Oops, how could I forget The Secret World. My laptop could barely run it so I had to let that one go sadly....cmon PS4 take the good stuff man...
Geez I'm getting senile. Dragons Dogma Online. Took on a troll (or was it an ogre.... it was big) with my assassin and stabbed his head till it went down. Healing items don't have cooldowns luckily X)
Ultima I believe as well? I could be wrong, someone correct me on that.
DayZ
Nether......I think thats it for games I actually tried (besides Ultima, a friend of mine played it)

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I enjoy tanking, am indifferent to healing, and find DPS jobs droll and boring.

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I don't like to be that person, but droll means something similar to unusual or quirky; pretty much the opposite of dull.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I don't think we'd enjoy an MMO that didn't have at least a trinity system in place.

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This on the other hand, I agree with. I'm not even sure what other systems would work in MMO's, having not seen anything else. I know some people often talk about a fourth option (support) but I just don't think it'd work that well as it falls too closely to what a healer does to be a class in its own right. Or on here I suppose you have bards which mainly do dps. A support role that would literally be about giving people buffs wouldn't make for engaging gameplay in my opinion, yet its what i see most often suggested when people want to break out of the trinity system.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online game.
To count as an MMO, a game needs a massive amount of players, in the same game, in the same area, at the same time.
Explorers, Super Smash Bros, and Pokemon have online-multiplayer but lack numbers.
LoL is a MOBA, a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. Again, it lacks the sheer number of characters in an area at a time.
EverQuest is the only game you have listed that is an MMO.

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LoL / this new game might have a massive amount of players.

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Originally Posted by Meraii

I don't like to be that person, but droll means something similar to unusual or quirky; pretty much the opposite of dull.

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Oh, derp. I'd seen it used that way, and didn't think to check. Thanks for keeping me honest! :D

SWG had an amazing Multiclass Trinity System.

Old games though. WoW pretty much ruined MMOs, ALL of them.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

LoL / this new game might have a massive amount of players.

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so you pick this comment to quote instead of the one with the breakdown of what "massive" is in the context of an mmo. others said it to you in another thread, FFE is a MH clone.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

so you pick this comment to quote instead of the one with the breakdown of what "massive" is in the context of an mmo. others said it to you in another thread, FFE is a MH clone.

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After looking at it, it actually looks and plays more like a phantasy star clone with a mix of 14 in it. Bosses act like they do in 14 (less aoe-y but aoes exist and damage is often unavoidable) and in MH bosses are unpredictable but you can dodge just about everything if you see it coming (no visible telegraphs for the most part). Though in phantasy star you can avoid stuff like in monster hunter, just less quickly imo. Anyways yeah, explorers is like a phantasy star- 14 hybrid :/

....Is it me or the bosses in that game seem a bit more stupid though?

Edit: also enemies can miss if you stand in front of em not moving....that doesn't happen in monster hunter. I'm kinda disappointed that it isn't a monster hunter clone honestly X(

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

so you pick this comment to quote instead of the one with the breakdown of what "massive" is in the context of an mmo. others said it to you in another thread, FFE is a MH clone.

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You act as if that kind of class system can't work in an MMO when it has successfully in the past. People just "play it safe".

People act like its a new system, when they pretty much copied World of Warcraft, and other MMOs and put a Final Fantasy Skin on it as if its a big deal. They polished it, but its nothing special.

FFXIV is probably the best "Themepark" MMO out there, but it literally does not do anything else, its afraid to step outside the fence. However, for what it is, its polished. However, what new things did they bring to the table? Nothing.

A multi class system, and more variety in dungeons is exactly what the game needs to make it fresh. It has the perfect engine and optimization to do it. Too bad a lot of the money for the game is going in other projects and localization is making them make content specifically for China/Korea.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You act as if that kind of class system can't work in an MMO when it has successfully in the past.
snip.

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no, i act like changing the main way fighting is done this late in the game is a bad idea, and again, a balancing nightmare. regardless of what others have said other games have, they have some form of balance in them, exactly how much varies.

If there was like pick any cross class skills and no balance there would be one super build that had all the most OP skills. Not using this build would lead the person to be mocked by other players. And you get more people complaining how random DF player didn't have X, Y, Z skills set so they were doing low dps.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

You say it like we don't have a choice but to play with these elitest a-holes. What happened to playing with friends? Balance is what SE has been doing forever. dps numbers would be lowered or increased as "balance" commands it.

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Well, considering that unless you avoid the DF entirely you're going to run into someone now and then. Playing with friends is fine, but unless your friends are playing with you consistently you will face this at some point, especially if you ever consider getting into the serious end-game content. However, DPS numbers is only -part- of the issue when choosing your builds and is also heavily dependent upon player skill with a particular job. However... even playing with friends, if you're a WAR without Provoke trying to run 8-man content with a tank-swap mechanic you're crippling and killing your group because of it. Mathematics weight heavily into it, especially when both DPS and Healing checks can be really tight... but your overall build will come down to the things you -have- to have and your choice gets whittled away until it's just pointless otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Good stuff

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Still won't stop someone from saying "Oh god d******, another Astro in this trash filled dungeon. Gonna be a long ride" Or "Of course, a dragoon in this titan run, what will happen I wonder?"


Fairly I'll put something more relevent to dps numbers (which I hate discussing on the forums for f***Ing m******* ******** ********** reasons". If I played my blm even slightly below what I should be doing, someone with a parser or spends too much time checking dps numbers will point me out and say, "This summoner is doing more dps than you, use your rotations lol." Or if I'm a monk and happen to get knocked around alot or happen to mispress a button on my rotation "Ugh, scrub monk and omg why are you using the tank pose (w/e)" I'd answer most likely with "So I'd have better defense to resist your f****** whining" (I'm not cursing at you at anyway btw but omg these people I meet).

About the shunning of players: People worry so much on how others would treat you in this game but do people ever remember the fact that these people that point out this stuff and shun players are just jackasses behind keyboards and controllers thinking their better than others? Maybe on skill level or gear wise, but if I had to take my time to study a game so in depth that I knew the best strat, class, and style of gameplay for every situation, and demand everyone who owns this subscription game to play that way, then I'd be a complete a*******, because we all know the game was not meant to be played in such a strict specific way and I'm criticizing you for not playing how I want you to play. And no, not everyone will want you to play this way. Not everyone is selfish and neither am I. Sorry for the self censoring :p

Anyways it's SE's job to make sure all classes are working properly, if they can be used in all situations like other classes then its alright. Balancing is then taking to account. So no matter who says what is better, players still have a choice to play their desired class.

quicknote: In earlier dungeons I believe provoke is kinda unnecessary, even in the MSQ trials. I'd just use a different class or if your team is nice and innovative they could plan ahead and make sure the warrior and pally (or tank with provoke) is close with enmity levels and can switch easily that way. Not all is lost without provoke. Even with new adds, just need to act quicker. Crippling the team is kinda pushing it I think.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I enjoy tanking, am indifferent to healing, and find DPS jobs uninteresting and boring. My roommate enjoys healing, has dabbled in tanking, but also hates how boring DPS is. Our friend enjoys minmaxing and killing things faster than should be possible, feels indifferent about tanking, but doesn't enjoy focusing on keeping us alive. We've all tried the different roles, and we've all found a niche gameplay that we enjoy.

I don't think we'd enjoy an MMO that didn't have at least a trinity system in place.

I disagree with your statement. The trinity has made gameplay in MMOs more enjoyable than any shooter I've played.

EDIT: People are also forgetting that FFXIV is an MMORPG - a Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE-Playing Game. In almost every RPG out there, different characters fit into different roles. They aren't shoehorned or forced, they just have strengths and weaknesses that separate them from everyone else. The "trinity" system actually goes back to traditional tabletop RPGs and even to the original, from which all that we know and love here has grown: Dungeons and Dragons. People play different roles that have different ways of contributing to group success. But people become so damn focused on numbers and efficiency and mathematical equilibrium that they stop playing a game they enjoy, and start working at a job they pay for. There's so much more to FFXIV and even the MMORPG genre in general than just having equilibrium and balance, and I think it would do good for more people to remember that.

EDIT 2: Even in MOBAs and most shooters, different characters have different roles according to their abilities. Go into any match of HotS without a tank or support class, and your team will not last.

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I never argued against roles. I argued against the trinity, where the game itself forces tanks and healers to be a necessity. It works in something like D&D because that is a turn-based RPG where combat is all about strategy. In an MMO it fails to create an interesting core gameplay loop. Why don't you try an action MMO and see for yourself? Your post makes it sound like you were unaware they existed.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Funny, I always thought that the Trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS was developed because otherwise most MMO players would quit after the first dungeon instance when an end-boss threw out a cleave that was higher damage than everyone's health points combined.

If WoW had not become so popular, do you think we would even have MMOs today? It was a pretty small niche market, with only thousands of users playing in any one game.

All that aside -- name a couple of MMORPGs that do not utilize the Trinity [in any fashion] that have any sort of popular following.

Inquiring minds would like to try them out.

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In a non-trinity MMO, that boss' attack would be avoided or blocked by any smart members of the party, and ones that didn't would lose a big chunk of health and learn a lesson not to let it happen again. Getting hit is a punishment for your mistakes, not some default truth you have to accept. Characters can even HAVE some heals, as a way of lowering the impact of those mistakes without invalidating them entirely.


As for just a handful of examples off the top of my head,

Mabinogi
Blade & Soul
Vindictus
DFO
Warframe
Dragon Nest
Black Desert
Lunia(may no longer be around)
Maple Story 2
Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine

All vastly different styles of combat. All great in their own ways. None enforce the trinity.

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Originally Posted by Callback

I never argued against roles. I argued against the trinity, where the game itself forces tanks and healers to be a necessity. It works in something like D&D because that is a turn-based RPG where combat is all about strategy. In an MMO it fails to create an interesting core gameplay loop. Why don't you try an action MMO and see for yourself? Your post makes it sound like you were unaware they existed.

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The difficulty with a system that doesn't enforce it is that if you show up in a group as a tank, you won't be allowed to tank. People will pull ahead of you, and will ignore any pleas to follow the system. Just thinking about it is giving me flashbacks to dungeons and scenarios in WoW: Mists of Pandaria, where the mobs did so little damage and died so easily that there was no need for any sort of role system. It was incredibly frustrating, because my character was built to be able to survive, and to prevent other people from taking damage, but all of the utility I brought was ignored, and thrown out the window. And especially considering how little damage tanks did natively, I felt utterly useless in that content, which made the game utterly unenjoyable.

Our guild healer experienced the same thing. Classes had so many self-heals that they trivialized most content, and left her Smiting and Penancing to contribute what minuscule amounts of DPS a Disc Priest could. It actually drove us to drop WoW for a while very early in the expansion, because our favorite activity (small group content) was not at all fun for us.

In a system where there is no enforcement of roles, everyone becomes DPS. Tanks aren't allowed to tank, and if they try, they're left behind. Healers aren't allowed to heal, and if they try, they're scolded for not DPSing. Everyone is expected to Zerg rush trash and bosses to death, and there's nothing unique about any of it.

iirc, Ragnarok online and the incoming Tree of Savior are using the trinity system, and have (somewhat) balanced PvP because the OP aspects of some jobs get flooded in the mass of players. Can't have this here because the PvP isn't exactly "massive" (even though the 72 man seal rock can be a joyous clusterfuck of light and sparkles), but the trinity CAN do things even when individual balance is out of whack.

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Originally Posted by Callback

The "trinity" sucks. It has never been good. It only exists because WoW became so popular after taking it and everyone, Squeenix included, has been constantly trying to copy their success...

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Final Fantasy XI was out before WoW. FFXI utilized the trinity system. SE developed FFXI. Sooooooooo, who copied who? Admittedly, SE took from Everquest, but in your example you are falsely claiming that SE took the idea from Blizzard, which is not the case. Sorry to nitpick. Not trying to be rude either. I just had to clear that up cause it really grinded my gears. lol

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

...we don't have CC and Support Classes anymore, in the right hands they are OP, so we remove them.

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Do we need classes dedicated to crowd control only? We have numerous actions for crowd control. Paralyze, Sleep, Bind, Slow, Silence, Stun, Reduced Evasion, Decreased Attack Power, Decreased Movement Speed, etc. and most jobs have some, if not all, of these associated with attacks, or actions that they can perform, and we also have enfeebling potions that can apply these debuffs to mobs. There is also enmity generating actions, and enmity reducing actions, which are forms of CC.

So again, why do we need a job that is dedicated to CC?