How about we create a single thread for suggestions and get it sticky-ed so we can keep the discussions focused and in one place for us and the devs? If there is support for this I can do the homework and get us started.
Consolidated thread of DoH suggestions - post 2.4
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11-12-2014, 02:12 AMgovtcheezeConsolidated thread of DoH suggestions - post 2.4
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11-12-2014, 02:54 AMManweSulimo
You got my support! I would really like to see crafting available using items inside retainers cause I am battling inventory space harder than I battled Nael Deus Darnus =.=
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11-13-2014, 01:30 AMYonko
More of a change to the lodestone than the game but would be useful in game.
Let us sort by actual recipe level. The X-X+5 is great for 1-50 but once you hit 50 everything is either 50 or master. It would be great if there was a 1 star/2 star category and a category for each master book. I haven't got the master II books yet and some of my crafts already require scrolling in the master category. -
11-14-2014, 02:07 AMgovtcheeze
Related to this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...quit-this-game
I understand from a system perspective it would be incredibly expensive to save the crafting state after every single turn. But SE could tap into the allowance system and give us a daily number of "this craft is important and I need to recover after a disconnect".
At the start of the combine we could spend an allowance and the server would save the state after each event. If you disconnect it will allow you to reconnect back into the combine. Saving after every event would prevent people from abusing the system to bail on a combine that is failing. Allowances let people decide which combines they really, really want to not fail due to a non-crafting issue and would limit the system resource use. -
11-18-2014, 05:35 AMSibyll
I'd like to see DoH crafting classes vary more greatly between each crafter. In it's current state any two DoH classes play the same because they will all have the same cross class skills. Rotations only vary based on recipe class (ex: 40 dur 2* or 80 dur 4*). Compare this to a DoW/DoM class where any two DPS play different.
That being said, I'd like to see them either remove cross class skills all together, or begin releasing recipes that remove the ability to use cross class skills (similar to some of the Ixali Quests). This would allow them to create synths that are difficult because of the skill sets that the class is limited to rather than absurd Quality/Progress values and RNG dependence. Overall I think it's very bad design to have the crafting system rely so heavily on crafters having all their classes to 50.
If they want to still encourage cross class, then maybe have two associated sub-crafts, similar to how jobs can cross class with two other classes. It might actually add some diversity and make a Blacksmith feel like he's different from a Goldsmith and a Carpenter in more ways than just the types of gear they produce.
I think the DoL classes could be flushed out a bit as well. -
11-18-2014, 05:44 AMRiceisNiceThe classes already differ out from what they can make. If you take cross classing out of the equation, they'd need to redo end game crafting as a whole to accommodate that. Othewise, certain recipes will be impossible to reach; I just shudder at trying to do a 3* furnisher craft as a CRP without ingeunity or PbP, on top of the only durability skill I'd have is MMII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
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11-18-2014, 06:26 AMSibyllThey could have new recipes be like Ixali quest lines where those specific recipes don't allow cross class skills. That way they could implement diversity without having to redo older meaningless content.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Furthermore, the recipes you make offers little difference in how the class is played. Explain to me how making a Darksteel Ingot on a Blacksmith differs from making Growth Formula Delta Concentrate on an Alchemist. It doesn't. A Blacksmith with 50s in all crafting classes can play any other crafting class equally well with no prior experience.
To elaborate my point, take Monk and Dragoon. Both are melee DPS, but I can assure you that a person that's has played only Monk can't go to Dragoon and play it equally well because there are those little differences that show the difference between an experience Dragoon and someone that just started playing it and read a rotation online.
I'd like to see more crafting progression that tests your skill as a good Blacksmith or Carpenter rather than treating all crafting classes as generic crafting classes. -
11-18-2014, 06:28 AMKenji1134
So, for 4 stars...
If you have the class body, ixal gloves, artisan's head/legs/feet, new accessories/belt, standard rings, all of that fully melded, along with the artisan mainhand and hq artisan offhand (no melds), that comes to...
426 Crafts and 404 Control, and 349 CP.
Out of 451 Crafts and 407 Control.
We can still meld a good a 25 crafts on the offhand, and there is food which gives crafts, though we generally need CP food more. Plus melding that much crafts will be very expensive.
So, are we basically forced to get the Supra in order to do 4 stars?
The HQ rotations are all very CP dependent, so we will end up using CP food over craftsmanship food. And melding the Offhand with say 18 crafts (3x Crafts IV), and then control in the other 2 slots. -
11-18-2014, 06:42 AMRiceisNiceBecause the ixali quest recipes are designed with that restriction in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
You're trying to see crafting classes to have a different playstyle from each other, just as the combat classes do. But now here's the thing, you're comparing combat to crafting; both completely different beasts.
You're correct in that crafting an individual item is no different than another because you have access to all the skills, but the requirement and stats of star crafting are tuned with this in mind. Without adjusting the durability, difficulty and quaility of wolfram, try and 100% HQ it with only BSM skills. Now do the same for alchemy and with only alchemy skills. If we want to step away from cross skilling on crafting classes, they'd need to redo nearly all star recipes and furnishing to accommodate.
http://link.ffxivcrafter.com/?id=cbb74 is an example of what I'm talking about. As a CRP, you only have access to base skills, rumination and bygrot's blessing. It's impossible for you to even finish this without cross skills.
And again, crafting is a turn-based thing. We can argue semantics, but this is mostly planning your steps based on numbers, not skill-oriented on your performance. What you're suggesting would require a complete overhaul of the system, when for the most part it works and it differentiates itself from the typical "click-n-wait" process that other MMOs use.
I really cant see how you can make crafting classes standout from each other aside from what they can make, because even if we try your suggestion and future recipes would lock out cross class skills, so many of them are so situation that it's really ineffective on its own. Alchemist would be heavily reliant on RNG, CRP can't prolong it's craft to make use out of rumination, etc etc. On top of that they all share the same base skills that the standard-to-go crafting process would be the same anyway... only that CUL will laugh at everyone else with SHII and hasty touch. -
11-18-2014, 07:15 AMSibyllThat's why I said "new" recipes. As in future recipes added later on. I agree it would be stupid to go back and redo everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Similar to how certain Synths say "Hiqh-Quality Unavailable" for housing items or "Aspect: Earth" for certain recipes you could have a designator that says "Cross Class Skills Unavailable" for certain higher level crafts. These crafts would be designed with each specific craft in mind and the specific skills that the specific class has available in mind.
Remember that some of the housing items are balanced around the idea that you can't HQ them and are given absurd progress bars to make PbP be completely required to do them. All of the crafting classes more or less have a theme associated with them: Alchemy is all about CP, Carpentry is about Inner Quiet Stacks, Armorsmith is about taking big chunks out of the progress bar etc. I don't see why it's so difficult to grasp that Alchemy recipes would be balanced around the skills they have available to them, because only an Alchemist can attempt the recipes.
Honestly, I think the system needs a complete overhaul. The crafting system is becoming more and more like a gimmicky WoW crafting system. There are a lot of people that play the game just to craft, and are quite disappointed that SE is treating the crafting system like a time sink for DoW/DoMs rather than as it's own entity. Gearing crafters is becoming arguable more difficult than gearing a DoW/DoM class for all the wrong reasons.
You seem content with crafting being a secondary thought just like most MMOs treat it, I'd like to see it be something more. I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. -
11-18-2014, 08:20 AMRiceisNiceThe thing is, the way it is now it's hard to do so without redoing the class abilities themselves instead of the recipes. How does alchemy work on getting that CP? CZ works on prolonging the craft with TotT and durability restoration, which requires RNGjeesus to be merciful with good conditions. CRP works off IQ stacks, but they can't spare the CP to build it up because they are limited by durability and CP since they can't hasty touch. Weaver has nothing going for it except guaranteed synthesis, which can be done with SH+basic synthesis by other classes, the list goes on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
The biggest gate to this is CP for most classes in order to use their skills effectively yet maintain the concept of crafting (unless we do away with HQ and quality, something I'd also be against) because the majority of it will be spent on durability restoration and quality increase.
Yeah, quite frankly that's how I'd see crafting and gathering in a typical mmo game. It exists to make equipment and consumables for other aspects of the game, and I like how they handled the crafting aspect of it instead of being a straight up stare-at-progress-bar that most games do. Though I can agree that I don't like how they handled 4* star crafting, in regards to gating the recipe books themselves by RNG and the materials by beast tribe and more RNG. -
11-18-2014, 12:33 PMSibyllThey most certainly would need to revisit skills. Some of the crafting skills are just down right useless. Flawless synthesis, Rumination, Careful Synthesis I (after you've gotten II), Basic Touch (once you get Careful Synthesis II) etc. Other skills are just too good: Byregot's is required to do anything, Comfort Zone is literally free CP, Steady Hand II/Hasty Touch are also required. The following point extends to combat classes as well: Cross Class skills cease to offer diversity and choice when they are required to do anything end-game related. If you are going to design it this way then you might as well just give the class the skills in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Also, Basic Synthesis+Steady Hand I costs 22 CP, Careful Synthesis I/II are both free (in the case of II it's also better than a Basic touch which is quite idiotic balance).
I don't want them to do away with HQing, but I'd like to see this expanded upon. I'm glad that recent progress in the crafting system has made HQ base materials much more valuable now that 100% HQ from NQ mats isn't really possible.
It was obvious that's how you view crafting; most MMOs treat it like that and that's fine. I, and I'm sure many people who enjoy crafting, would like to see it be treated as a more integral part of the game. SWG is an example of a game that did exactly that. -
11-18-2014, 12:57 PMRiceisNiceThe thing is, this is possible because you've maxed out your stats at that point from tools, melds and getting everyything to 50. You should be able to easily get HQ with little to no HQ mats. However, a lot of the 4* crafting recipes (specifically the artisan/forager series) have it that even if you use HQ when possible, you're up to RNG to make have a higher than 70% HQ chance at the end, even with optimum melds and equips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
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11-18-2014, 03:00 PMSibyllI should've clarified. I was referring to 2.0 when you could HQ the 80 durability 2* recipes with NQ mats. The joke was that the 2* 40 durability mats (Darksteel Ingots) were far more difficult to HQ consistently, even with HQ mats because of 9 cokes involved. However, this didn't matter because the additional durability and the ridiculousness of Hasty Touch spam + Byregot's made the 80 durability 2*s are real joke to HQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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11-18-2014, 04:17 PMRiceisNiceIsn't that pretty much falling into the whole RNG business; trying to HQ a 80 durability item without any NQ materials via HT + BB, even with SHII. I'm assuming that 2.0, the best you could get was the crafted set in HQ + militia offhand. You're practically in relevant gear for 2* crafting at that point. You're also looking at star alignment if you're getting 7+ successful HTs in a single craft. Not to mention the gear set up at the time, they'd still have access to the crafted set and milltia offhand, no? I'm missing a bit of context on whether or not they were geared at that point when you gave that example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
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11-18-2014, 10:42 PMSibyllAccessories overmelded and base melds for other gear (i55), which I would say is the reasonable entry level requirement for end-game crafting at the time. It was pretty easy to HQ 2* crafts because of Hasty Touch and BB, even with less than 7 Inner Quiet stacks. The game relies heavily on the player maxing all the other crafting classes to be at all relevant, and in that regard I think it's significantly worse than any other MMO crafting system. If they are going to treat crafting like secondary content then just do the WoW crafting style where you only need to level the two crafts you want. They are throwing so much pointless grinding in front of the players that they are driving away the player base that plays for the crafting.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Mastercraft Demimateria, Master Books, Sealants, Desynthesis. These grinds are atrocious compared to any coil raid. -
11-19-2014, 12:31 AMRiceisNiceHaving a full accessory being overmelded, on top of gear being melded, is border-line geared for the current end game crafting imo, the key is that you mentioned melding. With the stat requirements of 2*, you're only shy 4 craftsmanship (or one II meld) of meeting the stat requirements. Going well and beyond that (especially overmelding) would be stepping into overgearing for that level. But I think maxing each craft is the key though that they were going for though, in the similair sense that they wanted us to have a class at level 15 for job advancement. We're just talking semantics now though, so eh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
Still agree that they handled 4* crafting pretty atrociously, though. 3 weeks after patch day and I have only ever made one forager gear (and i'm not even the one using it...) -
11-19-2014, 01:39 AMSibyllI know what you mean by semantics, but I think it's key to distinguish between the time needed to level 3 classes to 50 (1 to 50 and 2 to 34 to be really technical) and 8 classes to 50. Honestly I'd really love to see a Job type system for the crafting progression. I mean the crafting system feels like what the battle system would feel like if Job didn't exist, everyone taking the same cross class skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Placing restrictions on what people can take forces decision making, theory crafting and depth. Even if they cut down the number of cross class skills from 10 to 5 (or something) it'd keep the essence of crafting the same while adding some amount of challenge and strategy because there would be different approaches to synths.
Another good start would be to remove some of the redundant skills. For example, CSII complete replaces CSI (and Basic Synthesis); Ingenuity II kind of makes Ingenuity useless. Many of the class skills are pointless. Standard and Advanced Touch only get used when I'm HQing stuff I out gear and don't feel like doing really rotations. They basically have a lot of interesting class skills that get out classed until they produce recipes or restrictions to make them desirable. They kind of did this with Piece by Piece when the Progression bar and recipes levels got high enough that it became required. Rapid Synthesis seems like it's going through a similar phase with the new recipes.
I'm still on Supra myself. I have my NQ Artisan off hand, but I didn't level GSM for desynthesis and MCDs are about 1.2 million on my server. The grind is real. -
11-19-2014, 01:57 AMRiceisNiceWith leves and ixali tribes, leveling a craft is second thought to me at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
I don't have a supra, though you can meet the stat requirements for 4* provided you use a food and FC buff (which I have the benefit off being the grand mistress of it). Even then, I have GSM at 93 and I still botch desynthesis at 83%, if not only get a rose gold out the thing. In the end I'd wish they'd step out out of the RNG requirements for end game crafting (in the end you even mentioned rapid synthesis which is just as bad as relying on HT spamming). Another thing to note that ingeunity is pretty worthles for 3* and 4* crafting now, that the CP cost doesn't justify the minuscule boost because the level different is just so high. -
11-19-2014, 02:34 AMSibyllThe RNG is awful, especially when you get no stat raise for a botched desynth and progression depends on this. For people that can't rely on FC buffs, Supra is basically require.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I've heard that the stats are meaningless at 4* beyond meeting the minimum requirements. And yea Ingenuity I and II are more or less pointless. It's painfully obvious that they are trying to make Reclaim more usable as many of these crafts require you to get a Good or Excellent on your BB and good Hasty Touch RNG. I realize crafting isn't necessary, but why make the crafting so tedious and unenjoyable (because of RNG) that people don't want to get involved in it. Could you imagine the uproar if FCoB was as RNG reliant as the crafting is?