Reporting FC leaders who know about cheaters?

Hello. I was just curious if it is legal to report an FC leader who i've told a few times now of this cheater in his FC and he continues to let the player operate in the FC and farm shards each night. (note: forgot to mention seen Fate farm also)

Since he has full knowledge that the player is using 3rd party tools but still allows it to stay with the FC can I also report him for turning a blind eye?

His response is pretty much "Meh" when I told him last time so he is fully aware.

I mean he is earning FC points and rank from its activities so he is techially accepting its ill gotten payoff.

Just curious if that is within terms of a report?

Not the leader's job to punish players. Leave that to the GMs.

You'd have to report the cheater in question and the leader and let the GMs decide. You're going to need some hard evidence though, like a screenshot or exact time/date of the leader acknowledging that he knows the cheater is actually cheating. At that point everything is up to GM discretion.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Not the leader's job to punish players. Leave that to the GMs.

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True but as I mentioned they are earning "something" off its activities and still allow it to stay in the FC. He is fully aware of its activities but still allows it to operate in his FC so he is allowing a cheater to cheat away under his company (and possibly even own it, i have no idea).

I understand bots are one thing but a lvl 50 botter in a max rank FC is something that you can at least make fcless.

If hes making profit or benefits from the bot by gaining gil/items from it then he is breaking the TOS and u can report him.

If he gains nothing from it then he most likely cannot be punished for it since even if he kicks out the bot its still going to continue what it does.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

True but as I mentioned they are earning "something" off its activities and still allow it to stay in the FC. He is fully aware of its activities but still allows it to operate in his FC so he is allowing a cheater to cheat away under his company (and possibly even own it, i have no idea).

I understand bots are one thing but a lvl 50 botter in a max rank FC is something that you can at least make fcless.

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Would somewhat agree, I mean, they punished people who were earning money off bots during beta/early release.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

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Originally Posted by Scarletyoshi

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

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That's why im asking a question about it. In my eyes hes guilty as sin (the leader) but im not arrogant enough to report till I know for sure if it is a reportable offense.

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Originally Posted by Devils_Lawyer

If hes making profit or benefits from the bot by gaining gil/items from it then he is breaking the TOS and u can report him.

If he gains nothing from it then he most likely cannot be punished for it since even if he kicks out the bot its still going to continue what it does.

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He gains fc points to spend on buffs and rank (if it wasnt already maxed that is). Like I said, im aware bots will bot, cant stop them all, but you can at least not associate yourself with it.

Shard gathering is not in any way generating FC points. Gathering only generates points when getting a HQ item. Shards cannot HQ.

I am assuming you've a written admission, signed and appropriately notified by the cheater in question?

Or you've just made allegations without any hard proof to the leader and he's decided not to kick the player on hearsay?

I am not sure whether or not it is considered a reportable offense, but in my own opinion, I do agree with you. If he is aware of it, the FC leader is supporting botting/RMT activities or whatever by not dismissing them from the FC. I'd report them and let the GM decide whether or not they consider it alright. It certainly isn't abuse of the reporting system.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Shard gathering is not in any way generating FC points. Gathering only generates points when getting a HQ item. Shards cannot HQ.

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True but i've seen the same bot gathering as well as Fate farm about 1 month ago (when I first reported it to leader/SE -.-) so he does get fc points when the bot is fating unfortunately.

I'm confused here. Why not just report the botting player? Go to the source of the problem if you're that concerned about it.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

True but i've seen the same bot gathering as well as Fate farm about 1 month ago (when I first reported it to leader/SE -.-) so he does get fc poitns when the bot is fating unfortunately.

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DoH/DoL doesn't get fate credit.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

I am assuming you've a written admission, signed and appropriately notified by the cheater in question?

Or you've just made allegations without any hard proof to the leader and he's decided not to kick the player on hearsay?

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As i've said in first post i've alerted this FC leader several times now about the bot, hes aware.

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Originally Posted by Scarletyoshi

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

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LOL i actually read that in her voice..

http://i.lvme.me/pzv5j7l.jpg

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Originally Posted by Azper

I'm confused here. Why not just report the botting player? Go to the source of the problem if you're that concerned about it.

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Firstly im not even gonna get started on SE banning of bots, seen enough still walking about, but thats another story, im just trying to see if I can also report those associated with the bot as well.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

As i've said in first post i've alerted this FC leader several times now about the bot, hes aware.

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Aware of what? How can he be sure you're not making it up?

He doesn't have the powers to investigate that GMs do. What you are describing is a witch hunt.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Aware of what? How can he be sure you're not making it up?

He doesn't have the powers to investigate that GMs do. What you are describing is a witch hunt.

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Essentially this.

While you can try to do a player "investigation" (I use this word very lightly as players don't have access to GM tools etc) on your own and take it upon yourself to alert an FC leader that one of their members may or may not be using 3rd party tools, the call really falls down to the FC leader as to whether or not to act on your word and really has no bearing ToS wise.

There really isn't a "Report this player for not removing someone from their FC based on player speculation" clause in the ToS and if there was one i assure you the backlash would be monumental.

Your best bet is to let the people who are supposed to handle this (The GMs) handle it, if you wish to notify an FC leader of your suspicions of a member you can do so but that road pretty much ends there.

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Originally Posted by Scarletyoshi

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

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Your exactly right! How it works is that SE turns a blind eye to botters as long as they continue to pay their sub fee!

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Aware of what? How can he be sure you're not making it up?

He doesn't have the powers to investigate that GMs do. What you are describing is a witch hunt.

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You can tell a bot by watching its movement and if it doesn't respond to your replies. I am not new to the reporting game and know how to spot a bot when I see one.

They are pre programed to follow set cords and respond with the same times with every movement and attack. They also do not show human characteristics when behaving such as jumping and taking the long way around rocks/rivers/gaps.

The Leader can warp to my location and see for himself so don't act like they are so preoccupied with their own things that they are incapable of confirming themselves, I gladly tell them the area the bot was in.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

You can tell a bot by watching its movement and if it doesn't respond to your replies. I am not new to the reporting game and know how to spot a bot when I see one.

They are pre programed to follow set cords and respond with the same times with every movement and attack. They also do not show human characteristics when behaving such as jumping and taking the long way around rocks/rivers/gaps.

The Leader can warp to my location and see for himself so don't act like they are so preoccupied with their own things that they are incapable of confirming themselves, I gladly tell them the area the bot was in.

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Even a GM wouldn't ban based on this. Doesn't respond to your tells? maybe he doesn't like you (possibly because you report him to the FC leader all the time), in any event he is under no obligation to reply to you. He does need to respond to a GM though, so they are the right people to report to, not your FC leader.

If the FC leader hasn't personally witnessed the other suspicious behaviour you describe (which is again, not sufficient for a GM to take steps) then he has no evidence to go by, just your testimony, which could be entirely made up.

From your description does it sound like he's a bot? definitely
Is it something to report to a GM? definitely
If the player responds to the GM is he going to get banned? Not a chance in hell unless he is implicated in suspicious transactions too.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

I am not new to the reporting game

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If this is your standard of evidence, I shudder to think how many false reports you may have submitted over the years.

I always had fun with those players who hunted fishing bots in FFXI when I was fishing. Actually got 2 suspended for harassment.

Anyway, on to your questions.

Is it reportable? Yes it is. But you can report people for using an /emote too.

The important part is that it is not in no way an offense. At least I have never seen a part about players having to police other players.

The leader and the rest of the FC will prob end up in the next blanket banning due to gil flow. I wouldn't worry about it OP.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Even a GM wouldn't ban based on this. Doesn't respond to your tells? maybe he doesn't like you (possibly because you report him to the FC leader all the time), in any event he is under no obligation to reply to you. He does need to respond to a GM though, so they are the right people to report to, not your FC leader.


If this is your standard of evidence, I shudder to think how many false reports you may have submitted over the years.

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He doesn't reply means hes not playing, also doesn't discredit the unhuman characteristics so you can't deny that. He doesn't reply because he doesnt like me? I dont tell him I told his FC leader so how would he know unless the FC leader (whom I told a few times) told him about me, some random guy, who goes around reporting people.

My reports are not false. People just play dumb and blind and I would not report unless im certain. You are just one of those blind people.

Also really? I would lie to a random FC leader about one of its random members doing illegal things? Think about that....... I would randomly spread false lies to try to get some random dude banned under my "uneducated" shot in the dark?

No I tell the FC leaders of the issue to help them clean up their FCs from associating with trash.

I need not say more to you as I feel you are leading me on now and trying to aggravate me.

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Originally Posted by Velox

The leader and the rest of the FC will prob end up in the next blanket banning due to gil flow. I wouldn't worry about it OP.

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http://i.imgur.com/jUIObc5.gif

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

He doesn't reply means hes not playing, also doesn't discredit the unhuman characteristics so you can't deny that. He doesn't reply because he doesnt like me? I dont tell him I told his FC leader so how would he know unless the FC leader (whom I told a few times) told him about me, some random guy, who goes around reporting people.

My reports are not false. People just play dumb and blind and I would not report unless im certain. You are just one of those blind people.

Also really? I would lie to a random FC leader about one of its random members doing illegal things? Think about that....... I would randomly spread false lies to try to get some random dude banned under my "uneducated" shot in the dark?

No I tell the FC leaders of the issue to help them clean up their FCs from associating with trash.

I need not say more to you as I feel you are leading me on now and trying to aggravate me.

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What distinguishes this player from any other who follows a set path between gathering nodes and has you on blist? You even said he was FATE-botting... how is that even possible? They're not regularly timed.

Raise the report with the GM and put it out of your mind. It's not the FC leader's job to respond to a disgruntled employee (know how i know you're disgruntled? you're looking into reporting someone who has done nothing wrong, but won't back up your accusations when he/she has seen nothing wrong?)

Hell, this other player has a case for harassment if you're trying to have him kicked from the FC behind his back...

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

I need not say more to you as I feel you are leading me on now and trying to aggravate me.

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You seem the type to be easily aggravated.

Why are you hung up so much on the FC? Report the player you have reason to believe is cheating and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

Your exactly right! How it works is that SE turns a blind eye to botters as long as they continue to pay their sub fee!

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Comments like this are a bit irrational. Botters are frowned upon heavily by gamers, especially in sub-based games. The active presence of known botters will lead to genuine players to unsub. However, all players are given the benefit of the doubt and much investigation has to be done in order to verify any reported botters are in fact botters.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

You can tell a bot by watching its movement and if it doesn't respond to your replies. I am not new to the reporting game and know how to spot a bot when I see one.

They are pre programed to follow set cords and respond with the same times with every movement and attack. They also do not show human characteristics when behaving such as jumping and taking the long way around rocks/rivers/gaps.

The Leader can warp to my location and see for himself so don't act like they are so preoccupied with their own things that they are incapable of confirming themselves, I gladly tell them the area the bot was in.

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When I gather, I don't reply to people who try to chit chat to "feel me out", because eff those guys, I'm too busy to accommodate your private investigator game.

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Originally Posted by rwyan

However, all players are given the benefit of the doubt and much investigation has to be done in order to verify any reported botters are in fact botters.

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Months and months and months of investigation if the lack of progress on doing anything about the same group of botters on Sargatanas who are always, always, always at the plasmoid spawn in North Shroud doing the same motions and automatically attacking anything that comes into range... Not sure when they first got reported by my partner,at least 4 months ago, possibly 6. They're still there though.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

What distinguishes this player from any other who follows a set path between gathering nodes and has you on blist? You even said he was FATE-botting... how is that even possible? They're not regularly timed.

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Bots do fate farm. I reported a guy 2 months back with 4 other people cause he was a level 50 PLD with a Novus and was fate farming and he's still around cause he pays a sub. SE is letting botters run around. If you don't know what bots are capable of, you really shouldn't be telling others what's a bot and what isn't. The people that report them know what to look for and can easily tell a bot from a normal player. It's not rocket science (but to you it might be). Just because you can't tell a bot from a normal person doesn't mean someone is wrong. Just means you're blind and don't want to realize the truth. I've seen bots farm fates, make a b-line to newly spawned hunts using radar, farm monsters in a small area for mats, craft all though the night, and even have a group of them in-sync with each other doing fates in the starter areas. If you don't believe bots can do fates, go to Gridania or Ul'dah early in the morning and go around to the fates till you see 4 bots in starting armor all doing fates with similar names with decent levels. Until you see that, you have no right to comment on what a bot is.

On topic, Maddonious is correct to report FC leaders if they refuse to kick a bot and don't want to see them. It's their responsibility to keep their FC's clean. It's no different than being an accomplice to a crime. The only people that protect bots are those that use them. Just like people that hate cops that have something to hide. It's been proven time and time again.

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Originally Posted by Frisque

When I gather, I don't reply to people who try to chit chat to "feel me out", because eff those guys, I'm too busy to accommodate your private investigator game.

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Yes, cause I'm sure so many people want to talk to you. Rude people are just going to be rude I guess.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

I need not say more to you as I feel you are leading me on now and trying to aggravate me.

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While you may not like the replies that Aegis has given you, they aren't incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

You can tell a bot by watching its movement and if it doesn't respond to your replies. I am not new to the reporting game and know how to spot a bot when I see one.

They are pre programed to follow set cords and respond with the same times with every movement and attack. They also do not show human characteristics when behaving such as jumping and taking the long way around rocks/rivers/gaps.

The Leader can warp to my location and see for himself so don't act like they are so preoccupied with their own things that they are incapable of confirming themselves, I gladly tell them the area the bot was in.

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A lot of this is possibly accurate but impossible to verify with the tools available to you as a player.

Speaking from personal experience, I'm a PC player who plays with a controller using a dual monitor setup. This allows me to alt tab and input commands via controller so i can watch movies or browse the web while still doing tasks that require minimal attention to the game like bulk craft orders or fishing or even simple FATE spam for Atma grind.

The volume from other sources or the log spam from crafting / battle / anything else could very easily cause me to miss a /tell if I'm not expecting one, does this mean I'm botting because i didn't respond to you?

This is exactly the reason that players aren't the ones tasked with carrying out in-game investigations on 3rd party activity and even with recorded evidence GM's have a policy of not using evidence submitted from outside of the game (Youtube videos, forums posts) in their investigations because of the caution they have to take when dealing with a player's account.

If an FC leader does choose to follow up on your independent investigation that is entirely their call, but them not following up on your personal speculation is not grounds to report them.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

On topic, Maddonious is correct to report FC leaders if they refuse to kick a bot and don't want to see them. It's their responsibility to keep their FC's clean. It's no different than being an accomplice to a crime. The only people that protect bots are those that use them. Just like people that hate cops that have something to hide. It's been proven time and time again.

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This would be correct if the FC leader was actively encouraging the use of 3rd party tools and you could prove it, while i agree an FC leader should keep a clean FC it isn't a reportable offense

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Originally Posted by Yahavage

Months and months and months of investigation if the lack of progress on doing anything about the same group of botters on Sargatanas who are always, always, always at the plasmoid spawn in North Shroud doing the same motions and automatically attacking anything that comes into range... Not sure when they first got reported by my partner,at least 4 months ago, possibly 6. They're still there though.

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The sad truth about bots in this game, no matter how you report they still keep playing cause they still keep paying (but doesnt stop me from trying hoping for change :\ )

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Speaking from personal experience, I'm a PC player who plays with a controller using a dual monitor setup. This allows me to alt tab and input commands via controller so i can watch movies or browse the web while still doing tasks that require minimal attention to the game like bulk craft orders or fishing or even simple FATE spam for Atma grind.

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Doing those things with little attention is normal, but doing them nonstop and perfect with little attention is not. Everyone can hear a wisp to them unless they shut the sound to the game off.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

While you may not like the replies that Aegis has given you, they aren't incorrect.




A lot of this is possibly accurate but impossible to verify with the tools available to you as a player.

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Tools= My eyes. If your curious they work great.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Speaking from personal experience, I'm a PC player who plays with a controller using a dual monitor setup. ect. --->

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Your missing the unhuman characteristic aspect of my report. I don't report solely on being rude with not responding, I also cross check with movement and study them to see if they are on a grid.

I don't know why people are thinking that Human movement = Pre programed coordinates.

What what people are telling me......"Oh you saw that guy perform the same path for over 15 mins now with no alterations in its movement (no path changes, no character swinging, no stopping)....... no its human, your just blind......"

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

Doing those things with little attention is normal, but doing them nonstop and perfect with little attention is not. Everyone can hear a wisp to them unless they shut the sound to the game off.

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Which i often do when crafting while watching a movie, in game option allows you to mute the sound when it isn't the primary window (dual monitor + borderless window) so it's entirely possible for me to miss a /tell or two while playing.

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

Doing those things with little attention is normal, but doing them nonstop and perfect with little attention is not. Everyone can hear a wisp to them unless they shut the sound to the game off.

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To be fair if they are listening to something else they pry won't hear the tell ping.

I do agree they have to stop sometime, no one can watch something and play at the same time nonstop without getting distracted.

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

Bots do fate farm. I reported a guy 2 months back with 4 other people cause he was a level 50 PLD with a Novus and was fate farming and he's still around cause he pays a sub.

Nowhere in this statement does it say how you know he's using any kind of third party tool to farm FATES. Your entire statement is that he's guilty because you reported him. Ignoring the fact that a GM looked into it and didn't back you up

SE is letting botters run around. If you don't know what bots are capable of, you really shouldn't be telling others what's a bot and what isn't. The people that report them know what to look for and can easily tell a bot from a normal player. It's not rocket science (but to you it might be). Just because you can't tell a bot from a normal person doesn't mean someone is wrong. Just means you're blind and don't want to realize the truth.

Lots of name calling in here, but it doesn't particularly bother me that you get this worked up. Again, you are just saying "I know bots better than you do, just because." Even though the one guy you've told me you reported was found by a GM not to be botting...

I've seen bots farm fates, make a b-line to newly spawned hunts using radar, farm monsters in a small area for mats, craft all though the night,

Radar is a third party tool and reportable, of course, but it's not botting. Crafting all through the night is very possible to bot, agreed and that's easy to report. Though again, if a GM speaks to them and they respond, there's no evidence they aren't just macro-crafting and are at the screen at all times. Same with farming monsters, you can set a macro to cycle between targets and attack.


and even have a group of them in-sync with each other doing fates in the starter areas.
If you don't believe bots can do fates, go to Gridania or Ul'dah early in the morning and go around to the fates till you see 4 bots in starting armor all doing fates with similar names with decent levels. Until you see that, you have no right to comment on what a bot is.

I pay my sub (for about four more years than you) so I can comment on whatever I like. I don't deny there are bots, although the low level FATE ones sound more like the multi-boxing that used to go on in V1 at cedarwood all the time. Ie: one person is controlling them all through third party tools, but is actively there to respond to /tells and so is cheating, but not botting.

On topic, Maddonious is correct to report FC leaders if they refuse to kick a bot and don't want to see them. It's their responsibility to keep their FC's clean. It's no different than being an accomplice to a crime. The only people that protect bots are those that use them. Just like people that hate cops that have something to hide. It's been proven time and time again.

I'd like to think I'm protecting those who are accused of being botters until they are found guilty by the GMs rather than this internet lynch mob you appear to be advocating.


Yes, cause I'm sure so many people want to talk to you. Rude people are just going to be rude I guess.

You've certainly managed to be

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I'm gonna need more persuading than some this rant...