Why are Healers allowed to be insanely overpowered?

Numbers don't lie and healers constantly outstrip damage dealers every game by a margin of ~5 to 1. That's completely insane.

Players should die when focused, playing well should be rewarded. Having a giant stallfest is neither fun nor good design. I have healers, I don't LIKE playing healers in PVP, I prefer to be more active. I'm not going to heal just because it's overpowered, I don't find that fun.

Healing needs to be reduced by about half in PVP to create anything even remotely resembling balance.

Then again, this is how we have 15sec hard crowd control in PVP... because that's another good idea. :/

oh cry me a river. i play a sch and i only heal for 600-850ish

(That's interesting.)

(That's too bad.)

You do realize that healers are almost always the main target and get interrupted CONSTANTLY. To the point that using surcast and equanimity does NOT help. I say you should play the class before you bash.

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Originally Posted by MajinUltima

Healing needs to be reduced by about half in PVP to create anything even remotely resembling balance.

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keep in mind what ur requesting not only affects ur enemies but also ur own team. dont think u want your healer healing u for only 400 when u have 3-5 enemy players on u hitting u for 5k+ damage per second. if we can't heal u, you're dead. do you understand that? so please remind me of how "balanced" that is when you're staring down at your lala corpse everytime you go up against an entire enemy team.

I dont feel like a god healing at pvp actually I feel like a piñata

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Originally Posted by NargaHuntress

You do realize that healers are almost always the main target and get interrupted CONSTANTLY. To the point that using surcast and equanimity does NOT help. I say you should play the class before you bash.

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This, so much this.

I go BRD most of the time now. I have more fun when I can just linger in the back shooting stuff, rather then getting frustrated because I can't cast a thing. That and I just don't think I'm a very good pvp healer lol.

A party with 3 healers will win against a party with 1 healer every time.

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Originally Posted by MajinUltima

Numbers don't lie and healers constantly outstrip damage dealers every game by a margin of ~5 to 1. That's completely insane.

Players should die when focused, playing well should be rewarded. Having a giant stallfest is neither fun nor good design. I have healers, I don't LIKE playing healers in PVP, I prefer to be more active. I'm not going to heal just because it's overpowered, I don't find that fun.

Healing needs to be reduced by about half in PVP to create anything even remotely resembling balance.

Then again, this is how we have 15sec hard crowd control in PVP... because that's another good idea. :/

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First of all, no they dont 'outstrip' damage dealers every game by a margin of 5 to 1. Secondly they do die when focused, really really easily. Maybe you just arent focusing?

The problem is, that the as the game is dumbed down, to enable it to be more accessible to players new to mmo's granting healers far more healing ability than they would normally have. When translated to a pvp enviroment this becomes a huge imbalance and highlights the issues with the each class as a whole. Im not sure how it will be possible to balance a healer for competitive pvp combat whilst enabling them to stay functional for the pre designed pve content. Many people say that ff14 simply wasnt designed for pvp, and it was thrown in purely so it wouldnt be missing the feature, so its easy to see why it is such a mess at the moment with little hope of being resolved. It is a shame though as the pvp setting of frontlines could be alot of fun.

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Originally Posted by ZellXIII

The problem is, that the as the game is dumbed down, to enable it to be more accessible to players new to mmo's granting healers far more healing ability than they would normally have.

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granting healers far more healing ability than they would normally have? such as what? i've been playing pvp for 8 months now and we healers haven't gained anything, instead we have been nerfed in earlier pvp patches. if anything we have lost abilities. our pets and dots were nerfed months ago and imo were rightfully nerfed because it was too op at that time when rolling SCH-SMN Wolves Den teams. it was almost a guaranteed loss because SMNs and SCHs could infinitely resurrect each other and keep enemy teams heavied and double dotted for days. so no, healers have not gained abilities, we have lost abilities.

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Originally Posted by ZellXIII

Snip.

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Except there arent these HUGE imbalances people are talking about. Its mostly a L2P issue.
Ive played PvP focused MMOs, infact i enjoy PvP more then PvE. I PvP in every game i can and this games PvP balance is not bad at all- infact its better then a lot of those PvP focused games (which is sad in its own right) Anyone that thinks there this massive imbalance issue really... is most likely soloqueing 99% of the time (in which case DUH ITS PVP, its much harder to win with all randoms) or just isnt very good.

I don't think any class is overpowered in their own right. Although, I do have to say that I think WHM/SMN are in the top of the list.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Yoshi P is a pvp veteran and enthusiast and knows exactly what hes doing and it thoroughly shows in ff 14 pvp. There has been minimal tweaks to the system since release and inspite of this, the game has some of the best class balance I've experienced in any MMO ever (very, very few MMO's get that sort of balance pretty right off the bat). You don't just throw a pve system together and produce this sort of pvp balance just by chance.

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exactly. agreed. the pvp is about as balanced as its going to get and it was implemented from jump better than most mmos i've played that took years to get it even remotely balanced.

I apologise, I wasn't very clear on my first post. I mean that the game from its inital conception was designed to be easier than previously released mmo's in general it an attempt to help those that have little or no previous experience with the genre. One of the ways they have done this is to make the healer role stronger than you would normally see in other simular games in my opinion. This i feel is highlighted within the games pvp content and as i feel it is part of the games mechanics, will be difficult to address. I appreciate you all enjoy playing the healer class and more power to you, however to say that the game has one of the most balanced pvp features you have seen, I would say places your experiences outside that of the majority of players, as the above mentioned reasons are why a huge number of people avoid the pvp content within the game. Which again, is a shame.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

A party with 3 healers will win against a party with 1 healer every time.

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Wrong, I've outlasted this setup several times as a solo healer. The key is having a party with solidly skilled DPS/Tanks that can pressure the other side/keep me protected enough that we can outlast their healers....People like to point out how well healers can heal, and miss the fast that most of the time, the battle is a stalemate....meaning no one's dying but no one's being creamed either, the team with the flag is simply the one that keeps the most bodies closest to it.


More to the OP's point:

If you can't burn down a 3-healer team, when that means the most dps they have is 5 against your 7 dps team, then your dps failed....You simply didn't apply pressure to all 3 healers at the same time and concentrate one down. But again, a good tank+melee dd can duo burn a healer down in under 10 seconds...w/o a LB.

Now if healers could DPS at the same output as a dedicated DD+heal, then you'd have a point. But really,anyone who thinks healing is 'easy' and 'OP' in Frontlines, should roll healer, and see just how 'easy' it is.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

But really, if you think healing is 'easy' and 'OP' in Frontlines, then maybe you should roll healer, and see just how 'easy' it is.

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I have all classes 50, healed in PvP. Maybe you should check people's classes before assuming they didn't play them.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Except there arent these HUGE imbalances people are talking about. Its mostly a L2P issue.

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ty! exactly. people fail to realize there have been healers doing pvp in this game for 8 months already who are used to having 3-4 people on them so they already have their rotation down. and now with frontlines, new healers are coming up learning the classes as well. so when you come across us and you can't kill us, then the problem isn't the amount of heals, we are just more skilled players than the enemies of the tank and dps are just doing it wrong. pvp 101, you aren't going to kill a healer with only 1 tank on it while another healer is up and your dps is doing 1v1 with the other enemy players. i see this crap happening all the time in pvp, even on my team sometimes and all i can do is smdh and just leave the flag for another alliance team that is more competent that needs help or help a tank ninja an enemy base since its obvious we are going to lose that one because of tards.

i mean crap, even i get merked sometimes. it happens. we are not overpowered.

we had to LEARN to be a skilled healer. and then you have to LEARN to be a good tank and dps and work together to take out a skilled healer. you ain't merkin us down like a dog in the street.

@MajinUltima. Come heal and i guarantee if you come heal you will get wrecked and smashed then we shall see if you still think healers are overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I have all classes 50, healed in PvP. Maybe you should check people's classes before assuming they didn't play them.

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Right...because leveling everything makes you an expert.... furthermore, I was in the middle of editing and wasn't directing that at you specifically.

Still point stands, if healers were truly OP, then all we'd see in Frontlines is Healerx8 parties etc. It is RARE to have more than 2 healers in any given party. And judging how easily this community joins in on 'flavor of the month' club things, I am positive that enough time has passed that if Healer roles were the 'OP' build for frontlines, more people would be rolling them by now. ( I mean how long did it take for servers to blow up over the 'free candy!' sign that was hunts).

So again, if healing is the 'Easy' button people claim it is for victory, then more people should play it. ...or admit, it's NOT as easy as they claim, and spend more energy figuring out how to burn down said healer teams instead of whining about them.

Kinseykinz, You cant call someone out claiming they need experience they tell them that there experience doesnt matter :/ And to your second point I think you are greatly over estimating the player based, of those players that are left pvping from my experience they are more interested in trying to be ranged dps superstars as they want the kills, as mentioned here previously by some that they would much rather play another role than heal despite it being so strong.

Healers have insane numbers on the roster at the end of a match because overhealing counts towards the sum, does it not? I can easily get 200k worth of healing done by spamming Medica II in the two minutes before the match starts. Every heal registers as a full heal regardless of how much HP the target is at whereas DPS actually have to do damage to something to register any numbers.

So, if you're only looking at the chart's numbers to determine how overpowered healers are, well............

Heres some ways to deal with healers-

Disease 20% reduced healing.
Storms Eye is another 20% I believe
STUNS/SILENCES during Equinimity/Surecast. NOT BEFORE. Seriously, they arent getting heals off if your simply hitting them- they need these spells to be able to get off those heals.
Hawkseye can be used to burst them down AFTER they use attunement.
Focusfire, focusfire, focusfire. Seriously, even in a non-premade you can just mark targets and tell everyone to focus them. It works. Just make sure you have just one person on the other healer.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

snip

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Equally skilled team with 3 healers vs a team with 1 healers, the team with 3 healers will always win. No question. The only time that wouldn't work is if the team with 3 healers DPS's are just plainly too stupid to realize that there's only 1 healer there.

Also, healing as a WHM with at minimum, 2 other WHM's around is easy difficulty. 2 becomes a challenge if you're facing a team that knows how to coordinate attacks. 1 is just outright suicide.

But again, the one thing about PvP is that almost everything is circumstantial. So quit arguing and just have fun PvPing. If your team sucks then you lose, if your team is good then you win. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by hours

Healers have insane numbers on the roster at the end of a match because overhealing counts towards the sum, does it not? I can easily get 200k worth of healing done by spamming Medica II in the two minutes before the match starts.

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Yea i've seen healers doing this, mainly WHMs. Today while waiting for drones on the platform, and no enemy players around us, the WHM on my team was consistently casting Medica II over and over again when we weren't even fighting and everyone was at full hp. checked the board at the end of the match and it showed him at 283k healing done. silly WHMs trying to pad meters. :)

Pretty much every number on the results screen is meaningless/undervalued/padded.

• Kills only count who got the final blow not whoever did the majority of the damage that allowed the kill and killing a Scholar or Summoner gets you two kills if their pet is alive.
• Damage mitigated is unlisted so the effects of abilities such as Stoneskin, Succor, Adloquium, Cover and Testudo are not fully counted in the final results.
• The increased damage granted to other players by abilities such as Full Swing, Storm's Eye, Disembowel and Dragon Kick is not tallied to the inflicter of the debuff, but to whomever made the attack that got the benefit of the debuff.
• And as previously mentioned, overhealed damage is tallied padding the healing totals.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

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Originally Posted by ZellXIII

.Many people say that ff14 simply wasnt designed for pvp,

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Anyone who says that is just a pve scrub with no clue about pvp or any experience. This game was designed with PVP heavily on the developers minds.

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Is that why they added morale and then subsequently made it useless in Frontlines? Is that why many skills are outright useless or otherwise disabled in PvP? Face facts, it's PvE and they slapped on PvP with a few alterations to appease players.

Want more evidence? Poorly designed arenas. Wolves Den is basically just a weak colosseum and Frontlines...? Frontlines is a vast expanse of nothing, with the only real action happening on a mere handful of points on the map. That 'action' is simply a capture the point to boot.

If you want to see examples of properly developed PvP, you need to cast your eyes on rival games. Guild Wars 2's World VS World brings brand new mechanics to the fold, building and applying siege weapons to destroy or to defend strongholds. I've probably over-used that example, but it's a good one. It shows that you don't need to rinse and repeat the vanilla game to get a strong PvP experience. Bringing something NEW to the table is preferable over doing the same stuff in a different setting.

Sadly, PvP combat in FFXIV is pretty uninspired. It boils down to one mass of players versus another mass of players. The only variation is the mob totems in the middle of the battlefield, which could have actually had some effect beyond giving you points, but no. They dropped the ball there too.

Haters gonna hate. Healers gonna heal. Keep tossing that nerf ball around til you realize if you're unhappy that other jobs are so OP, maybe it's because you suck at your own job.

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Originally Posted by MajinUltima

Players should die when focused

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And they do, regardless of role.

Have one of your DPS toss some AoEs or play interrupt duty if you're having trouble dealing with 3-4 healer groups.

I actually play PLD with a BRD over voip and we time bursts together to down healers due to Full Swing being the healer killer. Killing multiple healer groups isn't hard but man it takes a ton of coordination and in a pug alliance that's almost impossible to get.

Also just get off the point when you see a WHM on the point use Equanimity. They'll just holy nonstop most of the time and blow their MP and their cooldown for no reason. Save Glory Slash and Wither for when you see Medica II go off so you can stop the flow of regens as well. Since the healers tend to bunch together on the point to dickride each other you can usually dispel 2-3 targets at a time.

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Originally Posted by MajinUltima

Numbers don't lie and healers constantly outstrip damage dealers every game by a margin of ~5 to 1. That's completely insane.

Players should die when focused, playing well should be rewarded. Having a giant stallfest is neither fun nor good design. I have healers, I don't LIKE playing healers in PVP, I prefer to be more active. I'm not going to heal just because it's overpowered, I don't find that fun.

Healing needs to be reduced by about half in PVP to create anything even remotely resembling balance.

Then again, this is how we have 15sec hard crowd control in PVP... because that's another good idea. :/

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This is what I get for not posting for a week?
Get better, stop crying; the more time you spend here the less time you have to get better. Go queue!

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Sadly, PvP combat in FFXIV is pretty uninspired. It boils down to one mass of players versus another mass of players. The only variation is the mob totems in the middle of the battlefield, which could have actually had some effect beyond giving you points, but no. They dropped the ball there too.

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and you want to know WHY its "uninspired" compared to other games? because look at this forum and the type of players we are dealing with. a bunch of cry babies over petty and irrelevant arguments. players who cry over having to rank up for pvp. players who cry nerf nerf nerf and raise their pitchforks in the air when there's a class they can't beat. players who are ready to lynch a certain class when they don't even use their own skills properly to outsmart it. players who want the right to glamour pvp gear without having to earn the rank! majority of the crap here on these forums is just insanity. the FFXIV community is too carebear and wouldn't be able to handle a more robust, competitive pvp environment because it would be too hard and too coordinated for the majority and wouldn't play it. so SE gave us the type of pvp play that coincides with the mentality of its playerbase. basic, dumbed-downed, kiddie-pool pvp. i've played GW2 pvp and my opinion of it compared to FFXIV is most of these people wouldn't be able to handle it. GW2 has a strong pvp playerbase which is why the pvp in that game is better. there is no reason for SE to create more in-depth pvp if that's not the kind of paying subscribers they have and i doubt it will ever be that way. i mean look at what happened in Wolves Den. i've seen news healers try to do 30s, get smashed over and over again and then quit and when i ask them why they aren't playing healer anymore every single time their response was "its too hard". since the inception of pvp i can only count about 5 healers on my entire data center that actually stuck with the class. in FFXIV people care more about getting the next fluffy Moogle pet and blowing kisses and hugs. so comparing the playerbase of GW2 to FFXIV is like comparing apples and oranges.

players are crying about they want more competitive pvp ... yet bich and moan when there's more than 3 healers they claim they can't kill on the enemy team.
players are crying about this isn't "real" pvp ... yet cry rivers of blood when they get kited for days by a healer and demand to have them not be able to cast while Sprinting

i mean damn, ya'll can't have your cake and eat it too. either you want somewhat competitive pvp or you want SE to create a "hold your hand" pvp environment, because when players keep griping about the irrelevant aspects of pvp in this game, non-competitive, watered-down, splash your feet in the kiddie-pool pvp is exactly what SE is going to give you because they know you can't handle "real" pvp. they read these forums, feedbacks, suggestions, fan sites and other havens of where where their players reside to get into their players' heads so they know exactly what kind of content to provide for their subscribers. they aren't going to waste time and money creating content the majority can't handle nor want. i've worked for gaming companies before so i know all too well devs will only produce the kind of quality in a game that their playerbase demands, so the more ya'll keep demanding rudimentary, carebear game play, then rudimentary, carebear game play is exactly what Square Enix is going to give you.

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Originally Posted by Potatoes

... dickride ...

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ROFL HAHALOL

This again: "I complain to SE about PvP because I'm a dick and don't want to acknowledge my own shortcomings".

The fact that a group with two healers wins over a group with one healer has nothing to do with healers. That has to do with group composition. Thàt has to change, not the healers.

Hi OP,
Healer here with limited Frontlines experience. I roll as a WHM if I see we got two SCHs. Since we are a coordinated effort, your team will need to be more coordinated to stop us. Here are a few of my observations:

If you want to focus a target down, make sure a heal debuff like Miasma or Storm's Eye is applied. As a WHM, you've reduced my healing effectiveness as well as the fairy's. If I want to keep up, I have to use Divine Seal now or the target a Convalescence and a defensive buff. Though this won't stop the scholars and their lusty rations.

Bait people away from the healers, ideally in two directions. Pincer and pull around corners. It drives me nuts when someone I'm trying to heal is chasing you around a pillar/wall, because I can't target them without them running back or getting supra close to you. And when I see a second person's life dropping and I can't target them, I know they've chased someone too far or they're no longer with the party. If someone strays far enough from the pack, far enough that they can't get healed, Shadowbind, Heavy, Holmgang, stunlock, sleep, whatever you have to do to kill that person.

Pressure. You'll want at least one person doing AoEs. If we healers are close enough together, it'll interrupt our regular casts. But if you don't put pressure on all of us at the same time, any of us can and will get off our 2.5+ heals on people with all sorts of healing goodness. If I absolutely need to heal, I'll use Presence of Mind, probably Fluid Aura you away, since you can't attack faster than the GCD to interrupt me unless you're an archer.

Don't use your stuns at the beginning of the fight. Wait until we're 30% and try to keep us stunned and slept weaving between the two. This applies more to the scholars.

I hate caster limit breaks. Because lots of life bars will drop. This is your best chance to destroy our group. But if you slip for three seconds, the window is gone. Melee LB, meh due to two chances to insta-raise and/or get insta-raised.

If there's four of us, find another point, because we can't heal everyone/other alliances with AoE. Literally, persuade your team to go somewhere else. Stay away from the healer pack.

Hope this helps some.

Edit: I don't think I've ever been Feinted or Somersaulted. Might make it easier to kill a healer pushing the GCD back.

just to put things in perspective for the "SCHs are op" haters in here, here is a list of my combat log of me and Eos' heals while in Frontlines. i am geared in all ilvl 100 rank 40 pvp gear with no healing jewelry, all fending. you keep using that word "op", I do not think it means what you think it means. nothing op about these numbers at all and i was able to keep the WHM in my group up just fine when he was getting jumped. and you want this reduced to half? I hear that Coke that Rowena sells causes delusions when sniffed.

http://i.imgur.com/ni39wrV.png

@Gor, I think it's what happens when you go after a party that has two scholars. You see the HP drop to 20%, then in 2 seconds, it's full. If you manage to damage him/her again, the full recovery happens again. And again and again, and at some point, the assaulting party starts to die (many assault parties I see are whm/sch or one healer).

It creates the illusion that these two scholars are indestructible. And this often leads to one scholar getting a melee limit break in the face and the second getting his robe tossed over his head, bent over a pillar, and heavily violenced with lances, fists, and behemothian asslodes of fire magic before he can lustrate himself with vigoUr.

Healers are op?

Op do you mean getting interrupted every 2 seconds while trying to cast a heal? Healers are the first ones that usually get focused, locked down, and die first. If you aren't locking down the healer first just like in ANY pvp situation then you probably need to start doing so.

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Originally Posted by Sarahx3

Healers are op?

Op do you mean getting interrupted every 2 seconds while trying to cast a heal? Healers are the first ones that usually get focused, locked down, and die first. If you aren't locking down the healer first just like in ANY pvp situation then you probably need to start doing so.

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I hope you're not a healer, because it's fairly easy to stay alive as one if there's at least another healer there with you. And yes, casting spells without interruptions isn't generally a problem for me either as long as there's another healer with me. Oh, healing isn't even my best class in PvP either. So all you Healer PvP mains have no excuse to dying in a party of multiple healers other than your own lack of skills.

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Originally Posted by Skeet

I hope you're not a healer, because it's fairly easy to stay alive as one if there's at least another healer there with you. And yes, casting spells without interruptions isn't generally a problem for me either as long as there's another healer with me. Oh, healing isn't even my best class in PvP either. So all you Healer PvP mains have no excuse to dying in a party of multiple healers other than your own lack of skills.

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I am actually a healer. Im a newer/ish player to the game. I usually play healers in all my PvP mmos. AND im usually the one that is last alive since all the other healers are usually dead ^_^. I didn't ask if healer was your best or worst class. I'm just saying in general that all healers get interrupted in casting a spell/heal.

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Originally Posted by Sarahx3

I am actually a healer. Im a newer/ish player to the game. I usually play healers in all my PvP mmos. AND im usually the one that is last alive since all the other healers are usually dead ^_^. I didn't ask if healer was your best or worst class. I'm just saying in general that all healers get interrupted in casting a spell/heal.

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I know you didn't ask about it, I'm just saying that they aren't as "interrupted-prone" as you make them out to be.