1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

Patch 1.18 came with fixes - not game-breakers. I spent a decent amount of time reading and participating in all these threads suggesting that the game is broken, and things are not working.

I just thought I'd compile some of my contributions to the various topics in said threads:

Enmity is not broken. It is different. The change is well done. Tanks just need to adjust and learn to effectively gain hate with this new system instead of trying to do what used to work in the old system and asserting the system is broken when that doesn't work...

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Equip any of the following that you have:

Intimidation - this one goes without saying.
Accomplice - use on any healer that grabs hate, and make liberal use of it on the healers of your party throughout the battle to consistently reduce their hate and increase your own.
Cure/Sacrifice II/III - Start the fight with you taking care of your own healing, using tier 2/3 heals so you grab the massive hate generated by heals. When your MP gets low the mages can take over, but by then you'll already have a headstart on hate amount.

Make sure everyone lays off [the target] for [the beginning of the fight, briefly] allowing you to secure a good amount of hate.

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I myself tank on PGL, and will admit that at first I wasn't able to hold hate well at all. I pride myself on being a quick learner and adapting to change well. Even prior to playing the game after the patch, while just reading the notes I knew my old tanking strategies were not going to cut it. I knew with this new cumulative enmity system, my strategy was to shift from a method of holding hate, to one of accumulating hate. Once I made some changes to my routine, and swapped around some skills I was holding hate at least as well as before 1.18. Add to this how the rest of the team can now monitor their enmity levels and adjust accordingly, and hate management is much more... manageable now.

Another popular topic of QQ is Archers - apparently they've been nerfed...

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Archer has not been nerfed at all. It only incurred the loss of being able to nock 2 arrows back to back via Multishot, which was not a desirable thing to do mid-battle anyway and served more of a preparation purpose for opening with a burst on the next target while running. The stamina cost was just large for 1, let alone 2 arrows to be nocked... which meant you were waiting instead of shooting some more.

Now with the abolition of the stamina system, Multishot can be prepped right away for a FREE double shot via Light Shot OR Foeseeker with a damage buff (did you guys honestly miss that buff?) since it costs nothing to nock an arrow.
Add to that the ability to use Invigorate, Chameleon, Decoy, Scouring Strike, Still Precision and various other ARC staple skills that used to cost lots of stamina instantly now...

Archer got a buff with 1.18. Anyone that argues otherwise is kidding themselves.

EDIT: Bloodletter, considered the best DPS weaponskill in the game, is now Archer only? The utility of Archer as a DD has increased. C'mon guys, the answer lies in the details.

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Even after an edit I still see I forgot to add Trifurcate in there. Another skill that used to cost a lot of stamina, but can now be used instantly with no change to it's cooldown. It was always the preferred way to store 3 arrows mid-fight, and now it's free due to lack of stamina too.

The thing is, 1.18 changed the game... a lot. It was a major patch. The real issue here is it seems to be "too much, too fast" for a lot of players. SE can't just slow things down and ease players into this game's new direction any more than they do. They've got a serious deadline to keep or else this game is not likely to succeed. It's not like the devs haven't told us time and time again how many things are going to change with these upcoming patches - 1.18 being just the beginning.

There are going to be players who keep up to change and enjoy where the game is headed, and there are going to be players who fail to adapt or don't agree with where the game is headed and they will quit. It's a necessary part of change.

Let's just not confuse an inability or unwillingness to adapt with a broken game mechanic. Broken game mechanics are broken for everyone.

Finally,

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

By far my favorite part of this patch is how amazingly efficient it is in filtering out players who can adapt to a new challenge and determine the most effective way to do their job in very short amount of time from the players who do not like to escape their comfort zone because they believed they used to be so good, but now they can't play as effectively and thus believe the game must be broken.

Even within my circle of friends and shell-mates I now have a new appreciation for a handful of them that showed exceptional skill in the dungeons these last few nights.

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We as a community must embrace this new, challenging, and incredibly fun game we have been given. We must keep our criticisms constructive, and not fall into the trap of ranting/whining about personal opinions/feelings and confusing them for game shortcomings or flaws.

Despite all of the sincere efforts of the constructive members of our community to assist everyone in catching up, and to prove with videos, screenshots, tips & tricks, and strategies that there is very little wrong with the changes brought by patch 1.18 if anyone still feels the need to complain/rant/whine... all I can say is:

Cry Some More.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Patch 1.18 came with fixes - not game-breakers. I spent a decent amount of time reading and participating in all these threads suggesting that the game is broken, and things are not working.

I just thought I'd compile some of my contributions to the various topics in said threads:

Enmity is not broken. It is different. The change is well done. Tanks just need to adjust and learn to effectively gain hate with this new system instead of trying to do what used to work in the old system and asserting the system is broken when that doesn't work...



I myself tank on PGL, and will admit that at first I wasn't able to hold hate well at all. I pride myself on being a quick learner and adapting to change well. Even prior to playing the game after the patch, while just reading the notes I knew my old tanking strategies were not going to cut it. I knew with this new cumulative enmity system, my strategy was to shift from a method of holding hate, to one of accumulating hate. Once I made some changes to my routine, and swapped around some skills I was holding hate at least as well as before 1.18. Add to this how the rest of the team can now monitor their enmity levels and adjust accordingly, and hate management is much more... manageable now.

Another popular topic of QQ is Archers - apparently they've been nerfed...



Even after an edit I still see I forgot to add Trifurcate in there. Another skill that used to cost a lot of stamina, but can now be used instantly with no change to it's cooldown. It was always the preferred way to store 3 arrows mid-fight, and now it's free due to lack of stamina too.

The thing is, 1.18 changed the game... a lot. It was a major patch. The real issue here is it seems to be "too much, too fast" for a lot of players. Se can't just slow things down and ease players into this game's new direction any more than they do. They've got a serious deadline to keep or else this game is not likely to succeed. It's not like the devs haven't told us time and time again how many things are going to change with these upcoming patches - 1.18 being just the beginning.

There are going to be players who keep up to change and enjoy where the game is headed, and there are going to be players who fail to adapt or don't agree with where the game is headed and they will quit. It's a necessary part of change.

Let's just not confuse an inability or unwillingness to adapt with a broken game mechanic. Broken game mechanics are broken for everyone.

Finally,



We as a community must embrace this new, challenging, and incredibly fun game we have been given. We must keep our criticisms constructive, and not fall into the trap of ranting/whining about personal opinions/feelings and confusing them for game shortcomings or flaws.

If despite all of the sincere efforts of the constructive members of our community to assist everyone in catching up, and to prove with videos, screenshots, tips & tricks, and strategies that there is very little wrong with the changes brought by patch 1.18 anyone still feels the need to complain/rant/whine... all I can say is:

Cry Some More.

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You forgot to point out bloodletter has a badass animation now too :D ... just saying... cause I agree with everything else LoL (I know not technically a gameplay tweak but the Yoshi style ws's are ... O.O)

Oh and provoke now no longer instantly grabs hate from target just builds it, didn't see that directly mentioned (maybe missed it?!) Just wanted to point that out to people, no one seems to read the patch notes, even though you kinda covered that but just wanted to throw it out... otherwise great write up :)

Edit: Cover neeeeeeeds some love, should add that in <3 Hehe sorry xD

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Originally Posted by Misha

You forgot to point out bloodletter has a badass animation now too :D ... just saying... cause I agree with everything else LoL (I know not technically a gameplay tweak but the Yoshi style ws's are ... O.O)

Oh and provoke now no longer instantly grabs hate from target just builds it, didn't see that directly mentioned (maybe missed it?!)... otherwise great write up :)

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Yea I absolutely love the new animation for Bloodletter. You can feel the umph on that release... and the impact is amazing.

As for Provoke, I didn't think it'd be necessary to get into redundant details. I'm sure everyone read the patch notes... right?

You need to reevaluate your opinion of SE's abiity to balance hate if you think telling everyone to not attack for 30 seconds at the beginning of a fight is in any way normal.

I completely avoid the QQ threads, but people are really complaining about Enmity? It's nearly perfect.. I know this place is full of whining baddies, but it really stretches THAT far?

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Originally Posted by Celeras

I completely avoid the QQ threads, but people are really complaining about Enmity? It's nearly perfect.. I know this place is full of whining baddies, but it really stretches THAT far?

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Yep sure does^^ Everyone just wants provoke to be auto hate/win button instead of using all their abilities and/or using any skill at all xD ... next they will be complaining about mp manageme.... errr, nvm LoL

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to reevaluate your opinion of SE's abiity to balance hate if you think telling everyone to not attack for 30 seconds at the beginning of a fight is in any way normal.

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No, I do not.

It was a viable strategy to be safe rather than sorry before this patch, and is now a more effective strategy. If 20-30 seconds of no DPS drastically increases the chance that I will not lose hate from a boss mob/NM which will take a matter of 5 minutes at least to kill, than I will definitely go with it.

I'm sorry but, I find mindless zerging with everyone in the party constantly attacking at maximum output to "maximize DPS" to be neither enjoyable, nor exciting.

Perhaps you need to re-evaluate how you think a strategic battle should play out?

I'll stick with my opinion that people don't like change, many people had to adjust their playstyle with this update on a number of fronts.

hence all the crying on the forums, even if the changes are for the better people will fight change tooth and nail.

OP do you honestly think people just go to fight a NM right away, using their old tactics, fail and think ZOMG BROKE instantly without trying to adjust, knowing its changed, and trying countless times? Its basic instinct to adjust.... This community isnt full of retards who cant tie their own shoelace.

and the fact is what you might think works on 1 mob, might not work on another, so you could be blasting through dungeons keeping hate, good for you, why does it work? Because dungeons have been optimized the crap out of with the new enmity and stuff. While every other mob wouldnt have been. Do you think they are going to spend days testing, optimizing and tweaking a couple of nms? Probably did non at all. Take Cacutars for example, they have almost zero hate gains. No matter how hard you try.

People complaining because they all trying different mobs that react differently and their complain should be more about how unbalanced enmity is in the greater sense. Its only balanced for new content.

And I also agree with Raim, telling your PT to not do anything for 30+ seconds is very stupid.

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Originally Posted by viion

OP do you honestly think people just go to fight a NM right away, using their old tactics, fail and think ZOMG BROKE instantly without trying to adjust, knowing its changed, and trying countless times? Its basic instinct to adjust.... This community isnt full of retards who cant tie their own shoelace.

and the fact is what you might think works on 1 mob, might not work on another, so you could be blasting through dungeons keeping hate, good for you, why does it work? Because dungeons have been optimized the crap out of with the new enmity and stuff. While every other mob wouldnt have been. Do you think they are going to spend days testing, optimizing and tweaking a couple of nms? Probably did non at all. Take Cacutars for example, they have almost zero hate gains. No matter how hard you try.

People complaining because they all trying different mobs that react differently and their complain should be more about how unbalanced enmity is in the greater sense. Its only balanced for new content.

And I also agree with Raim, telling your PT to not do anything for 30+ seconds is very stupid.

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Actually sad thing is the community IS full of retards to be blunt (Anti-social at that too lmao), majority ignorant and not trying to change at all. Personally it would amaze me if in fact these people CAN in fact tie even one shoe let alone both :P Everyone and their mom still has "Sticky shoes" and refuses to use a variety of different abilities, move around battlefeild more and mind their placement in fights, as well as manage their mp effectively xD And it's actually basic instinct to fear change and differences :P Luckly Reasons more powerful than instinct for some people lol

Edit: Tank should ALWAYS be at the head of the party... while 20-30 seconds is a bit much, agreed there, people need to stop rushing ahead of the tank and give them at least time to enter battle. (A good 5-10 seconds doesn't hurt)

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Originally Posted by viion

OP do you honestly think people just go to fight a NM right away, using their old tactics, fail and think ZOMG BROKE instantly without trying to adjust, knowing its changed, and trying countless times? Its basic instinct to adjust.... This community isnt full of retards who cant tie their own shoelace.

and the fact is what you might think works on 1 mob, might not work on another, so you could be blasting through dungeons keeping hate, good for you, why does it work? Because dungeons have been optimized the crap out of with the new enmity and stuff. While every other mob wouldnt have been. Do you think they are going to spend days testing, optimizing and tweaking a couple of nms? Probably did non at all. Take Cacutars for example, they have almost zero hate gains. No matter how hard you try.

People complaining because they all trying different mobs that react differently and their complain should be more about how unbalanced enmity is in the greater sense. Its only balanced for new content.

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Actually I recall cactuars having unusual hate patterns prior to 1.18. Different mobs have different hate patterns, yes. I was not saying that I am able to hold hate well in the dungeon and thus hate everywhere is stable. I was commenting that the enmity system is not broken. There are some topics relating to a few specific mobs that seem glitched even - which is a possibility sure. The target of my post is to the people who are, actually, arguing that the enmity system is broken, period. You say the dungeon has optimized enmity, yet a lot of people were arguing the Ogre has broken enmity.

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And I also agree with Raim, telling your PT to not do anything for 30+ seconds is very stupid.

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To each his own I suppose. I honestly do not see the big deal of such a simple, and very effective strategy. In actuality it may not even last 30 seconds. In fact I just came up with 30 seconds arbitrarily based on a vague memory of how long I estimated it to have taken. The idea is, do not start DPS on the big guy until the tank says he is comfortable with his hate first.

EDIT: Perhaps I should edit the quote in the main post to better reflect the actual message. The arbitrary number appears to be getting more attention than it should, effectively leading to the point of the strategy to be missed.

What is broken then is subject to experience, as obvious as that sounds. Its about as stupid conversation as claiming stats were broken prepatch and other people saw blind it wasnt, and now look whats happened lol getting binned and redone. Though was not broken, just not suitable.

The problem I see with your thread is you are attacking the players saying they are doing it wrong, rather than defending the system. That just makes you as bad as them to be honest. And as silly as it sounds, all the evidence your can gripe up to prove it is not broken, could easily be factored to state it is broken. Never ending war!

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Originally Posted by viion

What is broken then is subject to experience, as obvious as that sounds. Its about as stupid conversation as claiming stats were broken prepatch and other people saw blind it wasnt, and now look whats happened lol getting binned and redone. Though was not broken, just not suitable.

The problem I see with your thread is you are attacking the players saying they are doing it wrong, rather than defending the system. That just makes you as bad as them to be honest. And as silly as it sounds, all the evidence your can gripe up to prove it is not broken, could easily be factored to state it is broken. Never ending war!

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My intention was never to attack anyone. I apologize if it appears that way. I only wish to enlighten people, and help along players that have difficulty adjusting.

The only part of the post that I would agree might be considered an attack is the very end... but it's only a bit of fun really.

While I don't necessarily agree with the 20-30 seconds of no action, its more a preference in tactics than outright opposition.

My preferred approach is a slow ramp up of DPS. Give the tank a few seconds to get his main enmity builds up (as an example, MRD getting their parry buff then setting off key abilities like defender and sunder). After that brief exchange the DPS classes start slow. ARC shouldn't go immediately to their multi-buffed multishot but instead use quelling strike and light shot a few times. Mages with rank 1 of their nukes. Etc.

My reasoning here is a matter of efficiency more than anything else, yes it may be 30 seconds out of a 5 minute fight but its still 30 seconds. You shave that many more seconds between the time the tank runs out of mana to self heal and the CNJ kicks into their own heals and the end of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Phenidate

While I don't necessarily agree with the 20-30 seconds of no action, its more a preference in tactics than outright opposition.

My preferred approach is a slow ramp up of DPS. Give the tank a few seconds to get his main enmity builds up (as an example, MRD getting their parry buff then setting off key abilities like defender and sunder). After that brief exchange the DPS classes start slow. ARC shouldn't go immediately to their multi-buffed multishot but instead use quelling strike and light shot a few times. Mages with rank 1 of their nukes. Etc.

My reasoning here is a matter of efficiency more than anything else, yes it may be 30 seconds out of a 5 minute fight but its still 30 seconds. You shave that many more seconds between the time the tank runs out of mana to self heal and the CNJ kicks into their own heals and the end of the fight.

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Again, the 30 seconds was an arbitrary number. I'm never going to be able to escape that am I? lol. It seems I've got to watch my words even more carefully.

That being said, I feel that your preference and mine stretch from the same root idea: giving the tank a hate headstart. Nevertheless, I agree with your approach - in fact I am considering adding it to the main post right under my quote for a hint of variety, given your permission of course.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

No, I do not.

It was a viable strategy to be safe rather than sorry before this patch, and is now a more effective strategy. If 20-30 seconds of no DPS drastically increases the chance that I will not lose hate from a boss mob/NM which will take a matter of 5 minutes at least to kill, than I will definitely go with it.

I'm sorry but, I find mindless zerging with everyone in the party constantly attacking at maximum output to "maximize DPS" to be neither enjoyable, nor exciting.

Perhaps you need to re-evaluate how you think a strategic battle should play out?

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You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG, and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG, and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

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I'm no longer going to reply to the whole 30 second thing. please reread that section in the main-post as well as some of my earlier comments. I have since adjusted my words to better reflect the point.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to realize that such a tactic is not employed in any other modern MMORPG

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I thought people were against this being streamlined to the point where battle tactics are exactly the same.

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and that 30 seconds of healing even while managing MP properly is a strain on Casters that should not be necessary.

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Tank heals himself, 30 seconds was hyperbole. Did you read the thread? It's barely 2 pages.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

30 seconds was hyperbole.

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This. Thank you.

I was honestly starting to freak out a little bit with everyone taking the number so literally.

Great post OP, well thought out and a good read.

Don't let these kids get you down, I imagine they've been wiping for the past 3 days to the ogre.

I'm really really enjoying this patch as well, and I mainly craft! :P

Another one of these arse kissing threads. Its getting almost as bad as the i hate this game because... threads.

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Originally Posted by Eugenics

Another one of these arse kissing threads. Its getting almost as bad as the i hate this game because... threads.

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Arse... kissing...

Yep. Totally one of those.

Great thread and I must say I agree completely. One of my LS members was telling me that the majority of the CONs he knows switched over to DoW because they couldn't handle the MP costs and the only response I could think of was "They must be scrubby CONs then". From my point of view, things went from broken to balanced, not the other way around, and I've been having MUCH more fun with the game now that it will actually punish you for your mistakes/ignorance.

My only gripe is that controls/targeting/UI response are not up to par with the battle system so I can't play as well as I'd like to.

Brb /gimmicks

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Originally Posted by viion

What is broken then is subject to experience, as obvious as that sounds. Its about as stupid conversation as claiming stats were broken prepatch and other people saw blind it wasnt, and now look whats happened lol getting binned and redone. Though was not broken, just not suitable.

The problem I see with your thread is you are attacking the players saying they are doing it wrong, rather than defending the system. That just makes you as bad as them to be honest. And as silly as it sounds, all the evidence your can gripe up to prove it is not broken, could easily be factored to state it is broken. Never ending war!

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The simple fact that it works for some means it's not broken, if it were broken it would not work for anyone.

While I mostly agree with this thread, I do have a slight issue with blanketing the enmity/hate system as "perfect" or even "mostly ok". I'll start by saying keeping hate under this system is more than possible - it's actually relatively simple once you adjust to the new system and enmity values associated with abilities.

The problem, in my mind, is that the abilities all GLAs are using to keep hate are *not* GLA abilities. It should not be required that a GLA rank up CON and THM to 48 to get Cure/Sac III (or even Cure/Sac II, despite being relatively small investment of time). Or ranking up LNC to 30 for accomplice. Or MRD in the 40s for Defender II. PUG in the 40s for Taunt II. I made a list of all the abilities I could want as a tank and I literally could not find a class I wouldn't want 42+.

Now, we know class abilities are being adjusted to define more class specific roles but who knows what we'll end up with. Jobs apparently are being restricted from using other class abilities? Or something to that effect.

Classes should be relatively stand-alone, in my eyes. Especially since Yoshi recently said he's hoping to develop a system where 2 hours of gameplay a day for 3-4 months will get a class to rank cap. The idea of having to level 7 classes (or more, when more are released) to cap or near cap to be playing your class effectively is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

While I mostly agree with this thread, I do have a slight issue with blanketing the enmity/hate system as "perfect" or even "mostly ok". I'll start by saying keeping hate under this system is more than possible - it's actually relatively simple once you adjust to the new system and enmity values associated with abilities.

The problem, in my mind, is that the abilities all GLAs are using to keep hate are *not* GLA abilities. It should not be required that a GLA rank up CON and THM to 48 to get Cure/Sac III (or even Cure/Sac II, despite being relatively small investment of time). Or ranking up LNC to 30 for accomplice. Or MRD in the 40s for Defender II. PUG in the 40s for Taunt II. I made a list of all the abilities I could want as a tank and I literally could not find a class I wouldn't want 42+.

Now, we know class abilities are being adjusted to define more class specific roles but who knows what we'll end up with. Jobs apparently are being restricted from using other class abilities? Or something to that effect.

Classes should be relatively stand-alone, in my eyes. Especially since Yoshi recently said he's hoping to develop a system where 2 hours of gameplay a day for 3-4 months will get a class to rank cap. The idea of having to level 7 classes (or more, when more are released) to cap or near cap to be playing your class effectively is absurd.

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Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having cross class abilities? Leveling them to cap is absurd, yes, but leveling them to 20 or so for cure II is not that bad at all. no different than leveling subjobs.

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

The simple fact that it works for some means it's not broken, if it were broken it would not work for anyone.

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Not if some say its working cuse they can hold X mob where as others say it doesnt work because they cant hold Y mob, when X and Y are completely different. So thus it can be broken when it works for some but not for others when additional situations are added to the experience.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having cross class abilities? Leveling them to cap is absurd, yes, but leveling them to 20 or so for cure II is not that bad at all. no different than leveling subjobs.

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It totally defeats the purpose of cross-class abilities, like you said. And I'm hoping for that. I actually get confused as to why people enjoy the concept of leveling, say, a Conjurer in order to play your Marauder. It's very counter-intuitive to me.

But even if they don't eliminate cross-class abilities (which I don't think they will) I think a subjob system, or a variation of it, would be better. The difference is, in FFXI you only had one subjob at a time so each main job typically only required a few subjobs to cover all your bases (and usually 1-2 were dominant).

Here, we'll all be required to level all classes to 25 (as an example). Which I'm a lot more comfortable with than currently feeling like I should level all classes to 50...

Hate/enmity still needs a bit of work, but its step in right direction. My biggest complaint is that melees got nerfed big time due to the fact that cure spells are no longer AoE. Many of the R50+ field NMs have nasty AoEs, until those NMs are adjusted, melees arent nearly as useful as ranged damage (ARC and CON/THM)

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Originally Posted by viion

This community isnt full of retards who cant tie their own shoelace.

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Based on what I read here, I'm not so sure about that.

Great thread. You make a lot of great points and I concur that anyone who is whining about the patch are just either bad at the game or don't properly know how to adapt.

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Originally Posted by Raim

You need to reevaluate your opinion of SE's abiity to balance hate if you think telling everyone to not attack for 30 seconds at the beginning of a fight is in any way normal.

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It's actually extremely common in MMO's for DPS to hold off a few seconds before certain difficult fights. It goes along with the strategy, and to be honest I'd rather hold off for a simple 20-30 seconds than have a tank that gets hate extremely easy at the start and never has a chance of losing it throughout the fight.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Based on what I read here, I'm not so sure about that.

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Quoted for truth. All the crying over a very positive patch (by mostly scrubby players) is the proof of that.

first of all the 30 second thing is anything but hyperbole. If you are fighting a rare NM and all the DPS go all out from the start no matter WHAT game you are playing one of the DPS WILL take hate. The 30 second thing was used a lot just to make sure WE DO NOT LOSE and have to start the whole fight again. (doesnt have to be 30 secs it can be 10 secs or 1 whole min.) it was used in FF11 a lot.. hell there was even some battles that DPS could not even attack..... When you are fighting something that can kill a tank in 1 or 2 hits your goal as a DPS is to be absolutely sure you do NOT take hate. and if that means backing off then you must back off... its not the games fault you suck and chose to go crazy.

OT: great thread and I agree with it. However cure 3 and other cures take up way to much hate IMHO. Lower that a little bit and im good with the system.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

Great thread. You make a lot of great points and I concur that anyone who is whining about the patch are just either bad at the game or don't properly know how to adapt.



It's actually extremely common in MMO's for DPS to hold off a few seconds before certain difficult fights. It goes along with the strategy, and to be honest I'd rather hold off for a simple 20-30 seconds than have a tank that gets hate extremely easy at the start and never has a chance of losing it throughout the fight.

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Wow you put it better then i did nice!

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Originally Posted by viion

Not if some say its working cuse they can hold X mob where as others say it doesnt work because they cant hold Y mob, when X and Y are completely different. So thus it can be broken when it works for some but not for others when additional situations are added to the experience.

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This can be defined by a bug in the hate mechanics of mob Y. It does not necessarily suggest the enmity system as a whole is broken.

In fact, the logical step is to suggest the mob being buggy rather than the system when 'mob Ys' are few and far between.

Patch 1.18 inspired me to go back and level some other classes to gain abilities that'll be helpful for my brand of tanking/DD, so hurray 1.18.

That's all I have to add.

The problem I have here is the assumption that every tank NEEDS Cure III Sacrifice III. You can emit plenty of hate without these spells just fine. Spend time doing damage off the back and throw a taunt and provoke and you get the same effect.

I agree that Accomplice is a godly skill to carry though. I would be lost without it on PUG

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

While I mostly agree with this thread, I do have a slight issue with blanketing the enmity/hate system as "perfect" or even "mostly ok". I'll start by saying keeping hate under this system is more than possible - it's actually relatively simple once you adjust to the new system and enmity values associated with abilities.

The problem, in my mind, is that the abilities all GLAs are using to keep hate are *not* GLA abilities. It should not be required that a GLA rank up CON and THM to 48 to get Cure/Sac III (or even Cure/Sac II, despite being relatively small investment of time). Or ranking up LNC to 30 for accomplice. Or MRD in the 40s for Defender II. PUG in the 40s for Taunt II. I made a list of all the abilities I could want as a tank and I literally could not find a class I wouldn't want 42+.

Now, we know class abilities are being adjusted to define more class specific roles but who knows what we'll end up with. Jobs apparently are being restricted from using other class abilities? Or something to that effect.

Classes should be relatively stand-alone, in my eyes. Especially since Yoshi recently said he's hoping to develop a system where 2 hours of gameplay a day for 3-4 months will get a class to rank cap. The idea of having to level 7 classes (or more, when more are released) to cap or near cap to be playing your class effectively is absurd.

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Accomplice is a rank 30 PGL skill... not LNC... :P

In all seriousness though, I don't believe they are necessary in all scenarios of tanking, however they serve as a great boon to one's ability to tank. If all it took to tank effectively was to rank GLA to 50 and be done, there'd be no long-term developmental goals.

The reason I ranked MRD and GLA up at all were to supplement my PGL tank with skills. The reason I ranked LNC was to get Invigorate II for my Archer. These goals keep me playing, trying out all the classes and discovering my unique playstyle.

My suggestions are in response to helping someone tank better - which with this system means accumulating hate more efficiently than the rest of the party's members.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JayvirDeforte

The problem I have here is the assumption that every tank NEEDS Cure III Sacrifice III. You can emit plenty of hate without these spells just fine. Spend time doing damage off the back and throw a taunt and provoke and you get the same effect.

I agree that Accomplice is a godly skill to carry though. I would be lost without it on PUG

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They do not need it. I would highly recommend at least 1 tier 2 heal though - and that is not difficult to obtain in the slightest. A tier 3 heal just makes it easier on the tank.

Again tanking is not only about what skills you have, but the skills you have can boost your ability to tank by a large margin.

Give a deadly warrior a deadly sword and you have a legendary foe... or in this case.. a shield? :P