Vote Kick yourself....

I think we should be able to kick ourselves... There's probably a better solution out there, but why should we be penalized if the party is uncooperative or excessively bad? If a group is claiming they're trying to clear something and is failing, doesn't take advice and refuses to change their strategy, then there is no hope... So, why should an individual have to suffer a 30 minute penalty if no one else is taking it seriously?

Nope, just leave if you want to leave. Your way just defeats the purpose.

No. What purpose? I'm not gonna take the 30mins without retribution. I'll just troll. In my opinion, consistantly running off the edge on a Titan fight by "accident" is just as bad...

Except if you ask them to vote kick you and they don't, then what are the chances that they'll vote to kick you if you start a vote kick on yourself?

No - because tank and healers will missuse such feature to get out "free" of the unvanted dungeons or trials so they can requeue right away. Not gona happen.

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

I'm not gonna take the 30mins without retribution. I'll just troll.

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Really? What kind of person are you?

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Originally Posted by HEC

No - because tank and healers will missuse such feature to get out "free" of the unvanted dungeons or trials so they can requeue right away. Not gona happen.

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This is truth. Honestly, I'm a really nice guy, and extremely tolerant of players who don't have a clue. However with the power suggested by Sensyon, I would eventually fall into abusing it in this manner, attempting to justify it in my own head as a necessary evil. Slippery slope my friend, slippery slope.

Whats the difference between attempting and realizing that the party, as is, is incapable of beating the instance, and refusing advice from someone with a lot of experience and just not participating anymore. Intention? A group of 6 tried to do Titan HM. The WHM was iLvl 85+, and was trying to carry the others, who were in mostly relic gear. Between the 5 of them they had 3 pieces of CT Gear, and 5 pieces of DL gear. We did get to 40% Echo buff within 40 minutes, but they could not dodge, they couldn't deal DPS effectively, and they were randomly walking off the side, even the WHM. I advised that they carry 2 at a time, as it should be easy with Echo for 6 experienced people to carry 2 others if that was the intention, but according to the healer, it took WAY too long to do Garuda that way and he wanted it done quick. He was hostile with my advice. The MT, WHM (except when he was walking off the side) and myself were the only ones alive post-heart the 3 times we got there... Those guys are the trolls...

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Originally Posted by ariaandkia

Except if you ask them to vote kick you and they don't, then what are the chances that they'll vote to kick you if you start a vote kick on yourself?

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It's a reportable offense to "not play anymore". I'm suggesting that they implement a system where you vote-kick yourself for various reasons, and if the party denies it, you, as the innitiator after a small time period (less than 30 minutes) you can leave without reprisal or penalty.

I leave dungeons far too often these day, I'm done putting up with trolls.

But the thirty minute penalty doesn't apply to PF groups. So when I leave the DF, I just look for something to occupy my time in the PF.

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

(...) you can leave without reprisal or penalty.

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This is exactly the behavior that the 30-min penalty was designed to punish. Obviously, SE thinks that people should not do this.

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Originally Posted by Odd

I leave dungeons far too often these day, I'm done putting up with trolls.

But the thirty minute penalty doesn't apply to PF groups. So when I leave the DF, I just look for something to occupy my time in the PF.

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Exactly this.

Sensyon, I can understand your frustration at getting trolled, but your suggestion goes far beyond the scope of fair play, and is far too easy to abuse. Odd's response is exactly the way to handle the situations you have experienced that have frustrated you.

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

It's a reportable offense to "not play anymore". I'm suggesting that they implement a system where you vote-kick yourself for various reasons, and if the party denies it, you, as the innitiator after a small time period (less than 30 minutes) you can leave without reprisal or penalty.

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And what is wrong with using the vote abandon feature?

Personally, If my party is being stupid enough, they just find that suddenly the healer (or tank, or dps/healer/tank/support-in-one) is well, ignoring the party and soloing the dungeon. Because you know what? If it is easier for me to solo the dungeon than do it with the party? I will solo.

Of course, I mainly play healer so... Yeah... My parties tend to not live very long if they are that bad. And I've soloed the first boss of Stone Vigil before so it isn't like I can't do at least part of the dungeon by myself. (Noted, there are some dungeons that can't be solo'ed (maybe possible with the best gear in the game, but not with any gear I have)) due to what is needed).

Because otherwise that would be abused more than those who drop before a dungeon starts up (aka the "Avoid Pharos" method).

IF things are that awful that you want to bail, then eat the 30 min. I've done it before when I had a rough experience with a healer (they were not very pleasant to interact with, and I wasn't in a good mood). If you're looking for a particular group, that's pretty much what the PF is all about IMO.

Man the Miqote up.

Maybe OP's suggestion could be useful when all others are in the 4hr cooldown of vote?
I don't object the suggestion as I rarely quit even there is not hope for win,
however, it seems to be a bad idea as almost everyone object it...^^;

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

Whats the difference between attempting and realizing that the party, as is, is incapable of beating the instance, and refusing advice from someone with a lot of experience and just not participating anymore. Intention? A group of 6 tried to do Titan HM. The WHM was iLvl 85+, and was trying to carry the others, who were in mostly relic gear. Between the 5 of them they had 3 pieces of CT Gear, and 5 pieces of DL gear. We did get to 40% Echo buff within 40 minutes, but they could not dodge, they couldn't deal DPS effectively, and ...

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In this scenario vote abandon is there for this reason, if they didn't vote abandon, they won't vote kick either

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Originally Posted by Odd

I leave dungeons far too often these day, I'm done putting up with trolls.

But the thirty minute penalty doesn't apply to PF groups. So when I leave the DF, I just look for something to occupy my time in the PF.

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Wow. I thought the 30 minute penalty carried over. Didn't know this. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Amnesia

This is exactly the behavior that the 30-min penalty was designed to punish. Obviously, SE thinks that people should not do this.

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Some of SE's policies obviously didn't take everything into account. That's why they're constantly changing things. The 30 minute penalty and Vote-Kick features weren't always there, for example. My complaint is that there is zero reprimand for uncooperative parties. These pseudo-prebuilt parties come into DF and expect everyone to play by there rules. That's not cool...

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Originally Posted by Eruantien

In this scenario vote abandon is there for this reason, if they didn't vote abandon, they won't vote kick either

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I agree. They've made it very clear. I was just suggesting that if they don't vote to kick you, after you initiate it. The penalty for leaving is less severe.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Man the Miqote up.

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OMG! THANK YOU! That's so constructive. I never thought about it that way! Whew. Crisis averted everyone!!!

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Originally Posted by HEC

No - because tank and healers will missuse such feature to get out "free" of the unvanted dungeons or trials so they can requeue right away. Not gona happen.

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http://i.imgur.com/YIKFsNR.gif

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

I think we should be able to kick ourselves... There's probably a better solution out there, but why should we be penalized if the party is uncooperative or excessively bad? If a group is claiming they're trying to clear something and is failing, doesn't take advice and refuses to change their strategy, then there is no hope... So, why should an individual have to suffer a 30 minute penalty if no one else is taking it seriously?

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Honestly, getting kicked should smack you across the face with a 1 hour penalty.

If you were so awful that your party voted to get rid of you, you deserve a penalty. I'm shocked that it doesn't, because it should.

The issue was tht they wouldn't kick anyone or abandon the failing duty...

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

My complaint is that there is zero reprimand for uncooperative parties.

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I think that's exactly the reason for the penalty---so that one person can't just leave if they feel that the rest of the party is not meeting their expectations. They want to encourage people to work together and help each other to learn...

If they wanted you to be able to leave without a leave penalty, then they wouldn't have a leave penalty.

If you want to leave, you don't need the group to kick you. (That's not what "Kick" is for, anyway.) There's a built in "Leave" option already available. That's what you're supposed to be using. You're also supposed to get a 30 minute penalty every time you do that, because that penalty discourages people from doing this all the time.

If the reason you want to leave is because the group is consistently failing, then there's also the "vote abandon" feature. That lets you leave without penalty if the entire group is leaving. But it's only if the entire group is leaving, because in that case you're not abandoning anyone. If the rest of the group wants to keep trying, and it's just you that's leaving, then you deserve the penalty for leaving them short-handed.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

If the rest of the group wants to keep trying, and it's just you that's leaving, then you deserve the penalty for leaving them short-handed.

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Yeah, you're not getting what I'm saying. You're arguing the merits of two situations, neither of which are relevant. The party is pseudo-premade. So, vote-abandon is not gonna happen. Myself and the tank both argued with the group, that if they're not gonna try a new strategy, then we should vote abandon. They came into the DF and held the rest of the group hostage. They trolled. Instead of forming a PF group with the clear intention that it was a "keep trying the same thing until we clear it, regardless of ineffective it is" party, they decideded THEIR time was too precious and jumped into DF. So, now we have to waste our time? SE did not plan around that. And they obviously had no intention of working together. By there logic, they were already "short-handed"...

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Originally Posted by Amnesia

I think that's exactly the reason for the penalty---so that one person can't just leave if they feel that the rest of the party is not meeting their expectations. They want to encourage people to work together and help each other to learn...

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Yet they refused to work with the other's outside of the pre-formed 5. And they were not interested in learning. They wanted carries... The non-preformed members were trying to tell them that learning the fight is the carry. They didn't want to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

Yeah, you're not getting what I'm saying. You're arguing the merits of two situations, neither of which are relevant. The party is pseudo-premade. So, vote-abandon is not gonna happen. Myself and the tank both argued with the group, that if they're not gonna try a new strategy, then we should vote abandon. They came into the DF and held the rest of the group hostage. They trolled. Instead of forming a PF group with the clear intention that it was a "keep trying the same thing until we clear it, regardless of ineffective it is" party, they decideded THEIR time was too precious and jumped into DF. So, now we have to waste our time? SE did not plan around that.

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That's precisely the situation SE set up the rules for. There was a group that wanted to keep trying and you didn't want to. Whether they came in together or separately is irrelevant, as that has no bearing on how many people it takes to decide whether to Vote Abandon or keep trying. The majority of the group wanted to keep trying and you chose to (or at least wanted to) abandon them there. You can do so, but that incurs a 30 minute penalty.

You seem to think that the rules should be tossed out the window just because the other players there didn't agree with you. Well, that's not how games work. That they didn't agree to go with your strategy doesn't change the basic rules of the game. Maybe it was your strategy that was wrong and they were right not to go with it. But regardless of whose strategy may or may not have been better, the group has the right to keep trying if the majority of its players want to do so (at least up until the dungeon's time limit kicks in and SE themselves decide it's not working).

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

Yet they refused to work with the other's outside of the pre-formed 5. And they were not interested in learning. They wanted carries... The non-preformed members were trying to tell them that learning the fight is the carry. They didn't want to hear it.

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So from what I understand, they wanted to learn, but you didn't want to teach them and you felt that it was a burden to have to teach them?

if you make it so you can vote kick yourself, SE might as well just get rid of the penalty altogether. The penalty used to be 15 minutes. They raised it to 30 minutes for a reason. vote kicking yourself is a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by ariaandkia

So from what I understand, they wanted to learn, but you didn't want to teach them and you felt that it was a burden to have to teach them?

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You did not understand at all apparently. Literally, everything I've been saying is the exact opposite of what you just asked. I mean, wow. You're not even close. The three of us that were not preformed WANTED to teach them. They just wanted the carry. What they were doing was not good enough with their gear, plus Echo buff to win. I can prove it... We did not win...

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

if you make it so you can vote kick yourself, SE might as well just get rid of the penalty altogether. The penalty used to be 15 minutes. They raised it to 30 minutes for a reason. vote kicking yourself is a terrible idea.

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Not really, no.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Whether they came in together or separately is irrelevant, as that has no bearing on how many people it takes to decide whether to Vote Abandon or keep trying.

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Yes it does have bearing. 5 people out vote 3...

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

Not really, no.

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such an effective argument. gold star effort. you want to be able to vote kick yourself so you can avoid the 30 minute penalty. if this feature is added, it's going to be used in way more situations then just your one alleged incident. you're going to have everyone kicking themselves to avoid the 30 minute penalty. your "not really, no" doesn't explain why this won't happen. vote kicking self is still a terrible idea.

if your party refuses to initiate a vote kick what makes you think they're going to vote for your initiated vote kick.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

You seem to think that the rules should be tossed out the window just because the other players there didn't agree with you. Well, that's not how games work. That they didn't agree to go with your strategy doesn't change the basic rules of the game. Maybe it was your strategy that was wrong and they were right not to go with it. But regardless of whose strategy may or may not have been better, the group has the right to keep trying if the majority of its players want to do so (at least up until the dungeon's time limit kicks in and SE themselves decide it's not working).

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Also, incorrect. I'm asking for an additional feature and NOT the removal of the other rules. Further, the only strategy we were "allowed" to follow was the WHM's, which consisted of getting to at least 30% Echo Buff and healing through Plumes and spamming Manawall... I hope I don't have to explain how thats not a good strategy, right? And they could have vote-kicked me when I asked them to and got another DPS easy, but they didn't. They could have formed a full party and they didn't. They're time was too important, but not the 3 others who were trying to get it done..?

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

such an effective argument. gold star effort. you want to be able to vote kick yourself so you can avoid the 30 minute penalty. if this feature is added, it's going to be used in way more situations then just your one alleged incident. you're going to have everyone kicking themselves to avoid the 30 minute penalty. your "not really, no" doesn't explain why this won't happen. vote kicking self is still a terrible idea.

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Sorry, I just assumed you bothered to peruse the numerous posts in this topic that covered the issue. Essentially, I don't agree with your statement, and have posted reasons why.

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

Sorry, I just assumed you bothered to peruse the numerous posts in this topic that covered the issue. Essentially, I don't agree with your statement, and have posted reasons why.

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well when your "numerous posts" don't make sense it's hard to follow what you're talking about. you want to be able to initiate a vote kick so the rest of your party will vote to kick you after refusing to initiate a vote kick. if your party refuses to initiate a vote kick what makes you think they're going to vote for your initiated vote kick? dumb idea still.

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Whether they came in together or separately is irrelevant, as that has no bearing on how many people it takes to decide whether to Vote Abandon or keep trying.

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Yes it does have bearing. 5 people out vote 3...

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Five people who came in together would out-vote three. Five people who came in separately would out-vote three. If just a couple people out of that group of five had agreed with you to abandon, then your three plus two of the five would have out-voted the other three of the five. It's not coming in together that enabled them to out-vote you. It's the fact that there were more people who wanted to stay than there were people who wanted to leave.

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

I'm asking for an additional feature and NOT the removal of the other rules.

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No, you don't want them removed. You just want them not to apply to you.

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Originally Posted by LexSunfire

well when your "numerous posts" don't make sense it's hard to follow what you're talking about. you want to be able to initiate a vote kick so the rest of your party will vote to kick you after refusing to initiate a vote kick. if your party refuses to initiate a vote kick what makes you think they're going to vote for your initiated vote kick? dumb idea still.

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Again, I mentioned this earlier. If they don't vote-kick you, you give a reason and get a reduced penalty.

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Originally Posted by Sensyon

Again, I mentioned this earlier. If they don't vote-kick you, you give a reason and get a reduced penalty.

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if you want to leave then leave. but trying to "give a reason" to get a reduced penalty...? who decides if your "reason" is good enough to get a reduced penalty? or does your "reason" need to be good at all? can I just put that "people are stupid meanies" and that'll be good enough to get a reduced penalty? how does this suggestion not get abused?