No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

The most difficult thing is getting used to each individual tank though. They all seem to have a different idea of when to use their cool downs.

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My last several dungeons as a healer have suggested the appropriate time for a tank to use cooldowns is "what are those?"

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Originally Posted by Callinon

My last several dungeons as a healer have suggested the appropriate time for a tank to use cooldowns is "what are those?"

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Quess some new-born tanks there. Were they, by any chance, DRK or GNB..?

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Originally Posted by Halivel

Quess some new-born tanks there. Were they, by any chance, DRK or GNB..?

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Some of them... but we're also talking dungeons at level 40 or level 60... not Sastasha.

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Originally Posted by Superlooser

If you don't have time to do a dungeon properly, don't tag or tag unsync, or build a full rusher group.
Players have also the right to do a dungeon by taking their time and having fun.

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I agree.
But apparently many people in this forum treat the game like a 2nd job but the negative stuff I read here usually is the polar opposite of what I actually experience in game.

If it were up to people here you weren't allowed to talk, deviate from the critical path or stop for just a second to need/greed.
Yes, 90 minutes sounds excessive, but I had a few groups that just needed more time and I'm human enough to empathise and lend a helping hand, not scream from the top of my lungs. That's just unhealthy and silly besides.

I'm not sure why so many stopped playing this game for fun. Eh.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I agree.
But apparently many people in this forum treat the game like a 2nd job but the negative stuff I read here usually is the polar opposite of what I actually experience in game.

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Oh this place is golden. It has very little to do with actual in game experience.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Some of them... but we're also talking dungeons at level 40 or level 60... not Sastasha.

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Still pretty easy to have.
I mean, DRK is initially 30 and GNB is initially 60. Plus people who could buy a skip book for a DRK to drop into MSQ asap. There is pretty decent amount of new tanks since 5.0 released, and DRK/GNB got the biggest amount of them I presume. Though lately I noticed that the hype around them tend to drop and people start to return to their original roles.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I agree.
But apparently many people in this forum treat the game like a 2nd job but the negative stuff I read here usually is the polar opposite of what I actually experience in game.

If it were up to people here you weren't allowed to talk, deviate from the critical path or stop for just a second to need/greed.
Yes, 90 minutes sounds excessive, but I had a few groups that just needed more time and I'm human enough to empathise and lend a helping hand, not scream from the top of my lungs. That's just unhealthy and silly besides.

I'm not sure why so many stopped playing this game for fun. Eh.

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I completely agree. Nicely put.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

No bait, just the truth. If you really, truly cannot wall-to-wall pull, then you should re-think your given role. It's really not hard to cycle cooldowns and stay alive. Of course, if your healer is a turd, things become more complicated, but a healer can keep a tank alive in this scenario by simply spamming a single heal.

Game's not that hard, folks.

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Oh I know, I was just waiting for someone to argue against it.

I'm always down to go all in, it's just hoping everyone else is on the same wavelength no matter the content level. Especially when I was leveling my healers it was getting to a point where I had to pull ahead as a WHM just to have something to do.

Give me tanks that AOE and use their CD's, give me DPS that can dodge AOEs and dish them out, and especially give me healers that can heal minimally and throw those AOEs.

There is a hidden action in the game you can unlock really easy, called communication. I know sounds really strange but...with that action you can actually ask people if they are comfortable to do big pulls and try to get along with your group.

Big pulls are the norm, so if you play a tank just ask your healer if he feels comfortable with it and then plan your trip through the dungeon together. Just try it out, being nice doesn't hurt at all and that is true for both sides.

This is clearly a bait thread, but regardless i'll comment why this is wrong as someone who plays every role.

As a healer or tank small pulls are boring af. Obviously you can pull big good (knowing your limits, keeping aggro, aoeing well), or can do it bad (pulling way too big, not keeping aggro, and focusing on one target), but even if you do it bad i still find it more fun.
Of course tanks should pull however they're comfortable, but experienced tanks should be and are encouraged to pull big.
Dps also really shouldn't care how big someone pulls unless the party cant handle it or they're heavily undergeared (which 5.1 is preventing), regardless if theres 3 or 10 enemies their job is always the same.

It doesn't matter if im healer, tank, or dps, i love big pulls. They add challenge to some dungeons, and for others they just help hurry things up and keep things more interesting. If you're having problems with them then either your tank is bad, you need to practice some more, or if you have a handicap actually tell the party cuz tanks aren't mind readers.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Especially when I was leveling my healers it was getting to a point where I had to pull ahead as a WHM just to have something to do.

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To everybody reading this: do not ever do this. It's one of the rudest things and most toxic you can do to a Tank (assuming that the two of you are strangers and the Tank didn't approve you doing this).

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Originally Posted by Callinon

My last several dungeons as a healer have suggested the appropriate time for a tank to use cooldowns is "what are those?"

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Lol that's fun.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I'm not sure why so many stopped playing this game for fun. Eh.

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Did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, those who do dungeons in 15 minutes or less are having fun? Or that, perhaps, being efficient with their toolkit is fun for them? Or big pulls are fun for them?

My idea of fun is not spending 30-40 minutes in a dungeon I’ve done hundreds of times.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

To everybody reading this: do not ever do this. It's one of the rudest things and most toxic you can do to a Tank (assuming that the two of you are strangers and the Tank didn't approve you doing this).

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They weren't strangers btw as I was leveling them in a group.

Even then as a guy who mainly tanks if there's a DRG about to lose BotD or a BRD riding PP procs it's better for them to pull anyway if you're not quicker to the punch as it's going to make your life easier then having them rework themselves back up.

People gotta understand we're not in the days of Stormblood where we don't have diversion and an enmity reducing lucid, aggro is a joke so even if a DPS or Healer does pull first a tank even in the bare understanding is able to snap that aggro back insanely quickly.

That being said it's best to look at your tank first and if they're already sprinting into the best mob it's a good idea to set them up for an easier time.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, those who do dungeons in 15 minutes or less are having fun? Or that, perhaps, being efficient with their toolkit is fun for them? Or big pulls are fun for them?

My idea of fun is not spending 30-40 minutes in a dungeon I’ve done hundreds of times.

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No need to be snarky, and hey, if that's what you find fun, more power to you, (although tbh I do strongly disagree :P ), I won't argue that. "Fun" is a bit subjective for sure. However, you must recognize that when it comes to a dungeon, or really any instance for that matter, the only "real" objective goal there is, is to complete said instance. Anything else is superfluous as far as the content goes, because, with all due respect, your standards are also subjective

Quick example, I'm one of those Tanks that you read about in horror stories that melds straight Tenacity + Determination. What makes me feel good as a Tank is seeing how little damage I take, opposed to how much damage I deal. Doing this has not prevented me from clearing any content,
in fact, the 4-5% extra mitigation has saved lots of runs I've been in. Am I wrong for focusing on Defense? No. Are you wrong for focusing on Offense? No, because we just have different standards/playstyles. And that's chill, as long as we don't try to impose them on others.

So to sum up my points, unless someone is preventing the group from clearing/progressing in the content, objectively speaking, just leave them be. HyoMinPark, you seem like an intelligent person, although as your peer I strongly disagree with most of your views, I'll admit that you are very well spoken and at least provide understandable reasoning. I'm sure you know there's a fine line between giving desperately needed advice to save a run and nitpicking.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, those who do dungeons in 15 minutes or less are having fun? Or that, perhaps, being efficient with their toolkit is fun for them? Or big pulls are fun for them?

My idea of fun is not spending 30-40 minutes in a dungeon I’ve done hundreds of times.

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Landed in a Sastasha yesterday.. all of us level 60+ kind of scratching our heads as to what we were doing there. So we decided to roll the place. Finished in a little under 15 minutes. Actually was pretty fun doing that.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

No need to be snarky, and hey, if that's what you find fun, more power to you, (although tbh I do strongly disagree :P ), I won't argue that. "Fun" is a bit subjective for sure. However, you must recognize that when it comes to a dungeon, or really any instance for that matter, the only "real" objective goal there is, is to complete said instance. Anything else is superfluous as far as the content goes, because, with all due respect, your standards are also subjective

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This argument falls a bit flat when you've repeatedly insisted only the tank can dictate the pace. If the party, especially the healer, wants to go fast and you refuse to even attempt it. That would be you enforcing your subjective standards onto three other people.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Quick example, I'm one of those Tanks that you read about in horror stories that melds straight Tenacity + Determination. What makes me feel good as a Tank is seeing how little damage I take, opposed to how much damage I deal. Doing this has not prevented me from clearing any content,
in fact, the 4-5% extra mitigation has saved lots of runs I've been in. Am I wrong for focusing on Defense? No. Are you wrong for focusing on Offense? No, because we just have different standards/playstyles. And that's chill, as long as we don't try to impose them on others.

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Actually, you are. At least to an extent. Less damage translates to the mobs living longer, thus you taking more damage in the long run. While Tenacity certainly won't make or break a run, it's objectively the inferior stat simply because it takes an obscene amount—far more than we can reasonably obtain—to have any impact how healers play. My healing rotation/priority will not deviant in the slightest based on whether you have Tenacity melds or Crit. Therefore, the former isn't doing anything except lowering your damage output. That has been the biggest complaints in regard to Tenacity as a stat. If it saved a GCD heal, then it'd be valuable. It doesn't, unfortunately. The only time Tenacity will have any impact is Ultimate prog and week 1 Savage.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

No need to be snarky, and hey, if that's what you find fun, more power to you, (although tbh I do strongly disagree :P ), I won't argue that. "Fun" is a bit subjective for sure.

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Not being snarky; even though I am annoyed at the constant “Idk what people treat this game like a job it’s just a video game” comments that appear whenever anyone mentions anything about being quick and efficient in any type of content. That’s not us treating anything like a job—it’s merely us getting stuff done in a quick and efficient manner; and yes, we do find that fun. As I said, I don’t enjoy spending 30~40 minutes in an easy dungeon that I’ve done countless times before; and it is quite fun to have all my AOE burst on a large pull and watch things melt.

I make concessions for those who say “I’m new to tanking/a bit rusty from a break” or “I’m new to healing/a bit rusty from a break”—a lot of the time, they do just fine and we still finish faster than 30 minutes. I make concessions for newcomers, but even they don’t often spend that long “taking in the sights”. I stop making concessions the minute an individual starts being rude or abrasive in chat regardless of if they are new, inexperienced, or a veteran: by either pulling the “I’m the tank, I’m the leader” card, or other rude comments (e.g., “I just won’t heal you if you pull more than one pack, then” or “AOEs are boring and I don’t like them so I won’t use them”).

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However, you must recognize that when it comes to a dungeon, or really any instance for that matter, the only "real" objective goal there is, is to complete said instance. Anything else is superfluous as far as the content goes, because, with all due respect, your standards are also subjective

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You need to also recognize that majority rules in content; the majority adds objectives. If 3 out of 4 want to go quickly, then the final person either has to acquiesce or leave. Same applies the other way around: if 3 out of 4 want to take their time and full-clear, then the outlier either needs to acquiesce or leave.

This thread in its entirety was started (assuming it wasn’t just troll bait) on the premise that parties had to acquiesce to the OP’s personal demands in the content (i.e., no large pulls; taking forever to finish the dungeon because the instance timer is 90 minutes; etc.); and there have been an increasing number of posts containing the “I’m the tank; I’m the leader” argument lately. These posts are those forcing their personal standards to go slow onto the rest of their party, but I don’t see you trying to apply any of your statements to them: only really to those that tend to disagree with the way you wish to do things.

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Quick example, I'm one of those Tanks that you read about in horror stories that melds straight Tenacity + Determination. What makes me feel good as a Tank is seeing how little damage I take, opposed to how much damage I deal. Doing this has not prevented me from clearing any content,
in fact, the 4-5% extra mitigation has saved lots of runs I've been in. Am I wrong for focusing on Defense? No. Are you wrong for focusing on Offense? No, because we just have different standards/playstyles. And that's chill, as long as we don't try to impose them on others.

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I personally don’t care what you meld on tanks—melds are inconsequential in dungeons. Whether or not you understand how to use your defensives and your tank AOEs to adequately hold aggro on all mobs in a trash pull means more to me than what you choose to meld in an Expert Roulette.

What I would also care about is if you and I were in a party, and you were the only one insisting on things like single pulls, taking our time through the content, trying to dictate what the party does, etc., when the rest of the party wanted to get the dungeon over with quickly. If you were in the minority and attempted to go against the majority, that would irritate me far more than what type of melds you have.

If I was the one in the minority, I would take my own advice and acquiesce to a slower pace—I’ve done this before. Would you acquiesce to a faster pace if the majority wanted things faster, or would you try to force a slower pace on the rest of the party?

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So to sum up my points, unless someone is preventing the group from clearing/progressing in the content, objectively speaking, just leave them be.

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To sum up my own: outliers should not attempt to dictate the pace of a party or a dungeon, but rather acquiesce to the majority and quietly remove themselves from a party. I’m a firm believer in majority rules, even when I’m in the minority.

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HyoMinPark, you seem like an intelligent person, although as your peer I strongly disagree with most of your views, I'll admit that you are very well spoken and at least provide understandable reasoning. I'm sure you know there's a fine line between giving desperately needed advice to save a run and nitpicking.

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This sounds more backhanded than complimentary, and I’m not sure if that was your intention or not...

When I’m in-game, I actually rarely even talk to people I’m partied with outside of a “hello” and “tyfp”. This is primarily because I don’t tend to have many complaints, and also because I play on a controller and putting it down to type (or typing one-handed) is a pain in my rear.

If I do speak out, it’s usually because something is going fairly wrong: DPS aren’t AOEing, healer is not keeping people alive, tank is not popping defensive cooldowns and dying a lot, someone is AFK for no reason, someone is being a brat, etc.. I’ve never pulled extra mobs for a tank. I’ve never tried to make a tank go faster by suggesting it in chat or Rescuing them into the next pack (although, if I’m healing and the tanks asks “big pulls or small”, I will always say big because I’ll fall asleep otherwise). I rarely even try to dismiss a person unless they’re being just downright belligerent or trying to leech. So I do a lot less nitpicking in-game than you seem to think.

That doesn’t mean I don’t stand behind what I say on here. I do. I just know when to acquiesce and adjust, and when I shouldn’t have to.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Quick example, I'm one of those Tanks that you read about in horror stories that melds straight Tenacity + Determination. What makes me feel good as a Tank is seeing how little damage I take, opposed to how much damage I deal. Doing this has not prevented me from clearing any content,
in fact, the 4-5% extra mitigation has saved lots of runs I've been in. Am I wrong for focusing on Defense? No. Are you wrong for focusing on Offense? No, because we just have different standards/playstyles. And that's chill, as long as we don't try to impose them on others.

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This is a really bad example. DPS players obviously don't build defensively because slotting tenacity on dps would severely gimp the role they function as, The same thing applies to tanks. You building only tenacity and determination is not doing anyone any favors. The only purpose it serves is to slow down every group that has to deal with you as a tank. It's pretty obvious that you don't do content above DF, no one in their sane mind would take a tank that slots ten/det to any EX trial or Savage Raid and for some odd reason wants to intentionally gimp themselves under the guise of "Muh Playstyle". If you honestly enjoy playing like this then go for it, but don't be surprised when you get constantly VTK'd from groups.

Substats really don't matter much outside of bleeding edge content/min-maxing potential, but that still doesn't mean tenacity is something you should go out of your way to stat for because it's not going to change healer decision making at all (meaning it is effectively doing nothing).

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Originally Posted by Selova

This is a really bad example. DPS players obviously don't build defensively because slotting tenacity on dps would severely gimp the role they function as, The same thing applies to tanks. You building only tenacity and determination is not doing anyone any favors. The only purpose it serves is to slow down every group that has to deal with you as a tank. It's pretty obvious that you don't do content above DF, no one in their sane mind would take a tank that slots ten/det to any EX trial or Savage Raid and for some odd reason wants to intentionally gimp themselves under the guise of "Muh Playstyle". If you honestly enjoy playing like this then go for it, but don't be surprised when you get constantly VTK'd from groups.

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It's really not, and hey I don't wanna get too into it on here but honestly I cannot take you seriously when you say that melding Tenacity "gimps the role I function as", I am a Tank, a Tank's primary goal has always been and will always be to stay alive and take the least damage possible. Tanks and DPS are two completely different roles. Also, don't you think it's a bit ridiculous that you're judging the content I do in this game based on materia I meld. It's just so crazy hearing you say "no one in their sane mind would take a tank that slots ten/det to any EX trial or Savage Raid"
Because all I do is I run countless EX primals and also Savage raids (most notably had over 100 clears for Suzaku, Titania, and Hades all while relevant, and I've taught groups all 3). Actually, to all of my friends and my FC I have the reputation as the "EX primal guy" haha because I run them and teach them so often. A few peeps on Party Finder have even began to recognize my name and rejoice when I join parties. It feels great.

"The only purpose it serves is to slow down the group that has to deal with you as a Tank." Not only is this 100% untrue, but it's also rude and toxic, I'd appreciate if you stop talking like this. Everytime I'm left at ~4% of my health, Tenacity saved my life, that's how I see it. And imo me being alive matters infinitely more than me doing a few points of superfluous damage. If a Tank's damage is deciding whether a run is cleared or not, there's an issue going on with the DPS to be honest.
Btw, if anyone tries to vote kick someone from a group based solely on materia, they are toxic and the definition of an elitist. I have never been vote kicked from an instance despite my melds because thankfully 95% of the game knows this as well.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

What else are healers supposed to do? This game's content hits like a wet noodle. Healers place so much emphasis on their DPS because they'd be AFK otherwise. When the current Expert dungeon bosses can't break 50,000 on their busters despite the tank having several vuln stacks, it highlights just how little healing is actually required.

As for your BLM. Those "nuclear bombs" will deal significantly more damage on a pack of ten mobs than three. So waiting until the tank has everything gathered up is far better than wanting baby pulls.

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There is a HUGE difference between a "baby" pack and a pack of 20+ mobs. I only get bored when the Tank runs from the start to the first boss before finally stopping. You can grab 10 mobs in the first two rooms of a dungeon. Ten mobs is a baby pack. 30 is a monstrous pull.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

I'll admit that I did show slight toxicity in my past responses, I had good intentions but just came across the wrong way. I'll apologize for that. But I gotta be real with you man, by saying "especially you", you're inferring that I'm the main one showing toxicity in this thread, and that couldn't be further from the truth. My main mission here is to just defend people from verbal abuse, especially verbal abuse they don't deserve.

People are allowed to disagree with the pull style, but leave it at that. They must not start disrespecting the Tank because of it. There are people in this thread who are seriously (and proudly) putting down Tanks who pull small and speaking so nastily about them when the Tank didn't even do or say anything to them. I read a response from a guy who said Tanks who do this shouldn't even queue up. Really? Just because they pull small they're not allowed to play the game? Like, come on man. That's just messed up, stuff like that is not okay, and yes I do hold onto the belief that stuff like that does come across as elitist. So to restate my main point, you can feel how you wanna feel about it, but don't start disrespecting people over it (something we all need to work on in this thread).

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Well what do you do in your runs as a tank?
And I don't mean to disrespect you, I really wasn't, but I just saw you
really at the one person and it was kind of mean.

That said, I guess it all depends on how well anyone can keep up.
Don't stress your healers though if they seem to struggle.
Why can't people just ask whether not they're good for big or small pulls?
People act like you can't talk anymore, takes 4 seconds.
There's no need to take people on the stake about it, jeez.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

snip.

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Your job as a tank is to hold threat while contributing as much as you can to the group you are in. As long as the mobs aren't attacking your group and you know how to effectively spread out and juggle your defensive cooldowns, that is all you need for survivability. Using full determination and Tenacity materia isn't going to help you live any longer, and If you are having to rely on it you either need to learn how to tank or get a new healer.


I honestly can't comprehend why you would intentionally gimp yourself because you seem insistent on sticking to archaic rules of Tanking. Not every Tank in every game needs to focus on reducing the damage they take, FFXIV is one of those exceptions. Every single point of damage you take in this game is 100% scripted, there is zero reason to focus on decreasing how much damage you take, You are never going to be in a situation where you go "Man I would have survived that Tank Buster had i beefed up defensively by melding tenacity", If you are dying to any damage you tank in this game you either don't know how to manage your cooldowns properly or you don't have a good healer. That is it, period.


I honestly don't care if you want to interpret reality as me being "Toxic". You need to get over your Primadonna Tank mentality and start accepting the fact that what you're saying is 100% incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Your job as a tank is to hold threat while contributing as much as you can to the group you are in. As long as the mobs aren't attacking your group and you know how to effectively spread out and juggle your defensive cooldowns, that is all you need for survivability. Using full determination and Tenacity materia isn't going to help you live any longer, and If you are having to rely on it you either need to learn how to tank or get a new healer.


I honestly can't comprehend why you would intentionally gimp yourself because you seem insistent on sticking to archaic rules of Tanking. Not every Tank in every game needs to focus on reducing the damage they take, FFXIV is one of those exceptions. Every single point of damage you take in this game is 100% scripted, there is zero reason to focus on decreasing how much damage you take, You are never going to be in a situation where you go "Man I would have survived that Tank Buster had i beefed up defensively by melding tenacity", If you are dying to any damage you tank in this game you either don't know how to manage your cooldowns properly or you don't have a good healer. That is it, period.

I honestly don't care if you want to interpret reality as me being "Toxic". You need to get over your Primadonna Tank mentality and start accepting the fact that what you're saying is 100% incorrect.

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TBF, as someone that also melds TEN/DET on my Tanks, I do it because I flat out do not trust PUG healers, like at all. Admittedly, I don't do anything beyond Dungeons with my Tanks because I'm a meh Tank when it comes to CD management but I don't view TEN/DET melds as gimping the group but just something that I do to ease my anxiety for tanking. Is it optimal? No, but then again, its still a step up from a totally unmelded player and unless you're going for speed runs or World 1sts, it ultimately doesn't matter apart from the minute or 2 you save doing whatever it is you're doing.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Why ya'll responding to a troll in a troll thread?

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Because many people like to thow mud at each other (to put it nicely) in order to prove that they are a better player, person, human being than the other "lowlife". The exception is players who are actually useful without letting their ego get in the way, regardless of how top-tier raiding or casual-gaming they are.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Your job as a tank is to hold threat while contributing as much as you can to the group you are in. As long as the mobs aren't attacking your group and you know how to effectively spread out and juggle your defensive cooldowns, that is all you need for survivability. Using full determination and Tenacity materia isn't going to help you live any longer, and If you are having to rely on it you either need to learn how to tank or get a new healer.


I honestly can't comprehend why you would intentionally gimp yourself because you seem insistent on sticking to archaic rules of Tanking. Not every Tank in every game needs to focus on reducing the damage they take, FFXIV is one of those exceptions. Every single point of damage you take in this game is 100% scripted, there is zero reason to focus on decreasing how much damage you take, You are never going to be in a situation where you go "Man I would have survived that Tank Buster had i beefed up defensively by melding tenacity", If you are dying to any damage you tank in this game you either don't know how to manage your cooldowns properly or you don't have a good healer. That is it, period.


I honestly don't care if you want to interpret reality as me being "Toxic". You need to get over your Primadonna Tank mentality and start accepting the fact that what you're saying is 100% incorrect.

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You have your opinion, and I have mine. Stop speaking as if your word is law and I must abide by it. You couldn't be more wrong in that sense. Also, if you're trying to say acting in this toxic manner is the equivalent of "reality", then I really worry about your social skills man. It's possible to try and convey a point without being condescending, disrespectful, and name-calling ("Primadonna Tank", really?).

THAT is it, period.

I read plenty of lvl80 explaining that they do big pulls because they are bored in low level dungeons. Did y ou even try to understand a low level dps who will have to just keep spamming his only aoe all the dungeon ? Do you think it's not boring ? The only difference is that they need to do the dungeon for story, for xp or to farm stuff And a lvl80 doesn't need it. I Don't think that your Advanced stuff and the fact you Don't like to lose your time gives you the right to break ne players experience.

People do tend to completely freak out over this subject. You should probably toss in healer dps to really get them riled up. Personally I'd much rather take a few minutes more doing a dungeon than speed run everything. Unfortunately for me, that is not what the majority seem to want so I do the best I can.

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Originally Posted by Superlooser

Did y ou even try to understand a low level dps who will have to just keep spamming his only aoe all the dungeon ?

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So what? Otherwise he'd have to spam his 1-2-3 combo if it's a low level dungeon. Equally boring, but spamming AoEs on big pulls gets you out faster. Your point is invalid.

@the force because I can't quote on phone for some reason: well I asked you how you tank out of genuine curiosity but you just seem like you want to get mad and fight with anyone who disagrees with you lol.
need to chill out for real.

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

So what? Otherwise he'd have to spam his 1-2-3 combo if it's a low level dungeon. Equally boring, but spamming AoEs on big pulls gets you out faster. Your point is invalid.

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Better spamming 3 skills than only one skill. And you dont go much faster exept maybe if you have only aoe class like summoners in the team but you lose a lot of power when you spam aoe because melee dps and black mage monotarget skills are stronger and bard dps is weak if you dont Apply dots on each target (impossible with 18 ennemies)

I like pulling huge when I tank purely because I find tiny pulls boring and then at least you get to use your cds and manage aggro a bit more. :)

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Originally Posted by Superlooser

Better spamming 3 skills than only one skill. And you dont go much faster exept maybe if you have only aoe class like summoners in the team but you lose a lot of power when you spam aoe because melee dps and black mage monotarget skills are stronger and bard dps is weak if you dont Apply dots on each target (impossible with 18 ennemies)

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BRD got more AOE power in ShB. Their AOE isn’t weak at all. You only need to DoT 3-4 mobs, and then you Quick Nock spam while weaving in Rain of Death resets and Apex Arrow (at level 80). You don’t need to DoT every single enemy; just a handful. Then bask in the glory of all the procs you get during Mage’s Ballad from Repertoire, or from Quick Nock spam (at level 74, Enhanced Quick Nock Trait gives you a 30% chance to reset Rain of Death’s cooldown).

A lot of jobs got additional AOE skills in ShB, so it’s not always spamming one button unless you get synced down to a low level. In the higher level dungeons, most jobs have at least a two-tier AOE combo system. I believe DRG gets a 3-tier AOE combo during levels 71~80. And you do kill things more faster when you AOE. You also help out your tank and healer by getting rid of mobs faster so that they don’t have to use up all their resources on a single pull.

I guess I picked a bad time to consider learning/practicing tanking

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

A lot of jobs got additional AOE skills in ShB, so it’s not always spamming one button unless you get synced down to a low level. In the higher level dungeons, most jobs have at least a two-tier AOE combo system. I believe DRG gets a 3-tier AOE combo during levels 71~80. And you do kill things more faster when you AOE. You also help out your tank and healer by getting rid of mobs faster so that they don’t have to use up all their resources on a single pull.

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For new players this is the biggest thing to keep to heart as it's true. It all comes down to simple math, lets say DRG is a perfect example:

DRG's main single target 1-2-3 rotation goes 240/350/530 then if you do both extenders it adds on 640/720. So all together your total damage is (if positionals are hit) is 1840

DRG's AOE 1-2-3 rotation goes 170/200/230. Which seems smaller but let's add the general rule of thumb for AOEing and say there are three mobs present. So you would multiply those numbers by three would be 510/600/690 making it 2010. Three is the minimum but the number will keep growing overtime the more mobs that are present. While you're not doing that much damage to a SINGLE target, remember that all of that damage is going to the current pull so it is going by faster. So in turn the AOE would be more powerful based on how many enemies you hit, these skills have the exact same weaponskill CD time and that's not even factoring in moves like Dragonfire Dive, Geirsh, Nastrond, and Stardiver which you can weave in.

Add in that it's more Crowd Control for the healers to heal through easier as they all die in tandem, tanks can save their big mitigation for the beginning of the pull and you're getting all of your buffs like BoTD and it's a fantastic way to make pulls go by faster.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

For new players this is the biggest thing to keep to heart as it's true. It all comes down to simple math, lets say DRG is a perfect example:

DRG's main single target 1-2-3 rotation goes 240/350/530 then if you do both extenders it adds on 640/720. So all together your total damage is (if positionals are hit) is 1840

DRG's AOE 1-2-3 rotation goes 170/200/230. Which seems smaller but let's add the general rule of thumb for AOEing and say there are three mobs present. So you would multiply those numbers by three would be 510/600/690 making it 2010. Three is the minimum but the number will keep growing overtime the more mobs that are present. While you're not doing that much damage to a SINGLE target, remember that all of that damage is going to the current pull so it is going by faster. So in turn the AOE would be more powerful based on how many enemies you hit, these skills have the exact same weaponskill CD time and that's not even factoring in moves like Dragonfire Dive, Geirsh, Nastrond, and Stardiver which you can weave in.

Add in that it's more Crowd Control for the healers to heal through easier as they all die in tandem, tanks can save their big mitigation for the beginning of the pull and you're getting all of your buffs like BoTD and it's a fantastic way to make pulls go by faster.

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Can you elaborate more on this?
If I hit each monster for 1840 damage individually dont they die faster when hitting 6 monster for 2010?
Because the way I understand your AoE explanation, your overall damage output is higher, because you hit 6x the targets, but you're going to have to hit many more times with your AoE because you're not hitting each mob individually for 2010, or are you?

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Can you elaborate more on this?
If I hit each monster for 1840 damage individually dont they die faster when hitting 6 monster for 2010?
Because the way I understand your AoE explanation, your overall damage output is higher, because you hit 6x the targets, but you're going to have to hit many more times with your AoE because you're not hitting each mob individually for 2010, or are you?

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Think of it this way. Each pack of mobs is going to have a total amount of health for the entire group. To kill all of them, you will ultimately need to do all of that damage. Using AoEs for 3+ monsters will reach that total faster than soloing down each one individually.

In low level content it's pointless, most classes can't even AoE.

In higher level content you ask first; make sure everyone's on the same page so people aren't blowing CD's prematurely, stealing aggro or falling behind.

If a lot of people in this game weren't so socially inept this wouldn't be very complicated.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Can you elaborate more on this?
If I hit each monster for 1840 damage individually dont they die faster when hitting 6 monster for 2010?
Because the way I understand your AoE explanation, your overall damage output is higher, because you hit 6x the targets, but you're going to have to hit many more times with your AoE because you're not hitting each mob individually for 2010, or are you?

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That 1840 is specifically just a single target rotation, while the 2010 is an overall sum for multiple targets in a single rotation. My example is just using 3 targets, which is the usual point at which AOE outpaces single target combos. The big reason this is important is this is the exact same cool down time, so you're doing more damage in the same amount of time to multiple targets it's just divided among them. Add in that the other 3 people are also doing the same and the overall damage output is much higher compared to everyone focusing on just the one target if there are more mobs to make up that difference.

Probably an easier example for you to get is it for Healers. White Mage's single target (Glare) does 300 while their aoe (Holy) does 140. They both have the exact same cast time as well.

Glare makes sense to cast at two targets, because a single Holy on two targets (140 x 2 =280) do not cover the gap of a single glare(300) . HOWEVER the moment three targets are thrown in Holy becomes the more damaging option over time (140 x 3 = 420). So if I had to chose between in a case of three mobs casting Glare (300) or Holy (420) I'm going to go with Holy because it does more damage to the mobs as a whole. Then per cast that number keeps adding up. It looks like it's less but keep in mind the damage is just sorted out differently, it's MORE damage just divided among the mobs instead of banked on a single one.