Please make Blue Mage a normal job

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Originally Posted by Mariel_Crystallie

would be a great thing were bozja and eureka weren't FATE-centric contents.. because otherwise missile and lvl5 death will demolish those FATES.. unless they make the enemies immune to it/have different system for blue mage.

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Death already exists as a logos/lost action, a lot of the enemies/ bosses are either immune or die fast enough that its not an issue.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Limited Job content and having a balanced spec for duty finder are not inherently mutually exclusive. BLU could keep its limited content and then be locked into its already existing almost balanced optimal dps setup if you wish to play it in regular content.

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It could. But then BLU is taking up the resources and 'space' of two jobs, a full job (of which we only have 3-4 left) AND the extra stuff that makes it a Limited Job.

We could, for example, get Chemist, Geomancer, Mystic Knight and another phys ranged job in the next two expansions.
Or they could make BLU a normal job, and lose one of those four new jobs....

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It could. But then BLU is taking up the resources and 'space' of two jobs, a full job (of which we only have 3-4 left) AND the extra stuff that makes it a Limited Job.

We could, for example, get Chemist, Geomancer, Mystic Knight and another phys ranged job in the next two expansions.
Or they could make BLU a normal job, and lose one of those four new jobs....

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Personally I would take that trade, however im fairly sure the limited side of BLU is not handled by the job balance and design team, instead it is handled by the Atma guy and the side content rescources, so generating limited content is not taking away rescources from job development, sure it would "take away" the rescources from a CHM GEO ect if they did make an unlimited spec, but i would argue BLU is more iconic and its development would be more economical

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Personally I would take that trade, however im fairly sure the limited side of BLU is not handled by the job balance and design team, instead it is handled by the Atma guy and the side content rescources, so generating limited content is not taking away rescources from job development, sure it would "take away" the rescources from a CHM GEO ect if they did make an unlimited spec, but i would argue BLU is more iconic and its development would be more economical

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This is entirely subjective.
Trying to remove as much subjectivity as possible. I'd argue the variety of having multiple different jobs in different capacities, is greater than the same job overlapping two different functions.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This is entirely subjective.
Trying to remove as much subjectivity as possible. I'd argue the variety of having multiple different jobs in different capacities, is greater than the same job overlapping two different functions.

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Its not that subjective. It is objectively true that it would take far less rescources to develop a balanced job spec out of the limited job form of BLU due to the ground work covered already by the limited side. It is also objectively true that side content and job development do not compete for rescources so they could be handled concurrently. I would also argue it is objectively true that BLU is more iconic than any of the jobs you have mentioned due to the fact it has turned up in more final fantasy games, spinoff and mainline included.

In the subjective realm, I would disagree that it is greater having multiple different things, rather than one more robust thing, but as you said, that is subjective.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Its not that subjective. It is objectively true that it would take far less rescources to develop a balanced job spec out of the limited job form of BLU due to the ground work covered already by the limited side. It is also objectively true that side content and job development do not compete for rescources so they could be handled concurrently. I would also argue it is objectively true that BLU is more iconic than any of the jobs you have mentioned due to the fact it has turned up in more final fantasy games, spinoff and mainline included.

In the subjective realm, I would disagree that it is greater having multiple different things, rather than one more robust thing, but as you said, that is subjective.

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Let's say they did make BLU a regular job.

It would obviously be a caster DPS, so it would eliminate Geomancer right off the bat. It would likely mean we never get another caster DPS job.

Blue Magic is known for its versatility, but how would this translate in XIV's strictly balanced format?
It has a mix of magical and physical damage types.
It would likely have things like White Wind and Mighty Guard as party utility. This in turn would result in a lower personal dps output.
Judging by it's limited form implementation so far, it would have some kind of combo system. Something like one spell procs another spell, or empowers another spell. This isn't something covered by BLM (AF/UI) or SMN (trance cycle)

If you're reading between the lines, you'll notice a lot of similarity with Red Mage, which is our other modern/dapper styled showman mage with high versatility, low pdps and party utility, with a combo system.

I'd much rather have Geomancer, to introduce a new aesthetic to the caster DPS role, and likely bring different mechanics such as more interaction with ground-based effects and channelled spells.

Now, we may still not get Geomancer, so I still won't be getting my first choice. But whatever we do get, I would still wager would be more unique than Blue Mage.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Let's say they did make BLU a regular job.

It would obviously be a caster DPS, so it would eliminate Geomancer right off the bat. It would likely mean we never get another caster DPS job.

Blue Magic is known for its versatility, but how would this translate in XIV's strictly balanced format?
It has a mix of magical and physical damage types.
It would likely have things like White Wind and Mighty Guard as party utility. This in turn would result in a lower personal dps output.
Judging by it's limited form implementation so far, it would have some kind of combo system. Something like one spell procs another spell, or empowers another spell. This isn't something covered by BLM (AF/UI) or SMN (trance cycle)

If you're reading between the lines, you'll notice a lot of similarity with Red Mage, which is our other modern/dapper styled showman mage with high versatility, low pdps and party utility.

I'd much rather have Geomancer, to introduce a new aesthetic to the caster DPS role, and likely bring different mechanics such as more interaction with ground-based effects and channelled spells.

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Thats pure speculation on your part saying we'd never get geomancer after that but regardless.

White Wind and mighty guard could have balancing applied to them easily, just taking final fantasy explorers white wind would be a fairly solid way of balancing WW, where it created an assylum esq bubble which healed everyone in it for 5% of the blu's current health per tick for 20 ticks. Mightyguard is even easier to balance, being that it is traditionally a raidwide shell and protect, with occasionally other bells and whistles like float or sometimes haste. Mixing damage types is a non issue. Yes it would end up having superficial similarities to red mage, but its own gameplay flavour would be different and would be used differently, so it would be no more similar than monk is to sam. Its current limited state shows its rotation is noticable different to the other 3 casters, having to spend "empty" gcds to buff other skills, and being a sort of "magic beserker", developing this groundwork further would only have superfisical similarities to rdm in that it would have some non strictly damaging utility.

Its all well and good saying you'd prefer to have geomancer, but i don't think its honest using it as an argument for not having BLU. That would be like me saying you shouldn't want GEO because I want time mage (which would be my choice for 4th caster if we didnt get blu)

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Thats pure speculation on your part saying we'd never get geomancer after that but regardless.

White Wind and mighty guard could have balancing applied to them easily, just taking final fantasy explorers white wind would be a fairly solid way of balancing WW, where it created an assylum esq bubble which healed everyone in it for 5% of the blu's current health per tick for 20 ticks. Mightyguard is even easier to balance, being that it is traditionally a raidwide shell and protect, with occasionally other bells and whistles like float or sometimes haste. Mixing damage types is a non issue. Yes it would end up having superficial similarities to red mage, but its own gameplay flavour would be different and would be used differently, so it would be no more similar than monk is to sam. Its current limited state shows its rotation is noticable different to the other 3 casters, having to spend "empty" gcds to buff other skills, and being a sort of "magic beserker", developing this groundwork further would only have superfisical similarities to rdm in that it would have some non strictly damaging utility.

Its all well and good saying you'd prefer to have geomancer, but i don't think its honest using it as an argument for not having BLU. That would be like me saying you shouldn't want GEO because I want time mage (which would be my choice for 4th caster if we didnt get blu)

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I never said those things were issues in themselves, but they are all similarities to Red Mage, including it's aesthetic and 'job fantasy'.
There's a lot of similarities, and I think, even if we still hadn't had any sign of Blue Mage in XIV yet, that such a job build, with the style it currently has, would be too similar to Red Mage to consider.

If it had an entirely different aesthetic, and was perhaps even a different role such as a Tank, then I'd be for it. In it's current form, I wouldn't like to see it as a regular job as a caster DPS.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Limited Job content and having a balanced spec for duty finder are not inherently mutually exclusive. BLU could keep its limited content and then be locked into its already existing almost balanced optimal dps setup if you wish to play it in regular content. Unless you can enlighten me as to why everything that currently exist would HAVE to be gutted, the only one i can think of is rescources, but even then having a df spec of BLU is even more rescource economical than making a whole new job.

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I agree with you there. we can always keep the current blue mage content but tweak it a little bit for it to be able to enter normal contents. I'll say it time and time again, blue mage current contents are fun and intriguing at least for me, but the hard part is getting the spell because nobody ever does it anymore. they really don't have to scrap what they already do because people actually enjoy it but then when you enter you realize you need a certain spell from certain dungeon that you can't solo but can find nobody to queue with / group up with.. just irritating.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I never said those things were issues in themselves, but they are all similarities to Red Mage, including it's aesthetic and 'job fantasy'.
There's a lot of similarities, and I think, even if we still hadn't had any sign of Blue Mage in XIV yet, that such a job build, with the style it currently has, would be too similar to Red Mage to consider.

If it had an entirely different aesthetic, and was perhaps even a different role such as a Tank, then I'd be for it. In it's current form, I wouldn't like to see it as a regular job as a caster DPS.

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Before we had GNB I thought blue mage tank would have been awesome. . . Back when we had stances I thought Immortal Lion and Azure Eye could be their defensive and offensive modes :3.

Personally I see normal blue, in the current state of the game, being in an offensive support role where when the offensive support fails it translates smoothly into more damage. For example bad breath in most basic terms is in effect a holy from white mage, blue mage being able to disrupt the enemy to support the team (dealing red mage / dancer levels of damage); however, they'd have a mechanic that any debuff that fails to connect (immune / too many debuffs on the monster) turns into a general stacking blue mage corruption debuff that their kit will work around as well (also the general debuff would have a different bit more friendly timer- good for boss fights, and may be applied via other mechanics that don't relate to a failing immunity).

In simple terms it would be akin to fester on summoner, except blue mage would have like 8 debuffs on trash instead of 2 and 8 stacks of 1 debuff on a boss. The blue mage specific debuff would deal more damage with damage related mechanics, such that blue mage gains damage as they loose their support benefits (boss ignoring most offensive support, enfeebles, of course). Having multiple mechanics that could interact, with the ultimate but not first step being a consumption of stacks that fuel their more ancient and wacky blue magic spells. So you could give blue mage pretty much exactly white wind (I would even say buff it, like your hp and a minimum of 300 potency aoe cure) but it would cost them their damage opportunity (which means a blue mage would only use it in emergency situations, like Paladin with Clemency).

Due to the carnival vibe I believe the mechanics of the job revolving around acts and reveals, game show host / ring leader on the battle field. Many of the wacky blue mage spells could translate into normal content, and some could translate 'partially' well. Like for example you might have doom flat out kill trash at some large % health, during the doom countdown the monster takes more damage (and refunds some of the cooldown / cost based on life remaining before death effect activated or if it's killed before doom finished then even more of a refund, quite a bit longer cooldown / cost if it succeeds), and if doom finishes and can't kill the monster it'll then deal massive damage instead (so awesome on bosses).

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It could. But then BLU is taking up the resources and 'space' of two jobs, a full job (of which we only have 3-4 left) AND the extra stuff that makes it a Limited Job.

We could, for example, get Chemist, Geomancer, Mystic Knight and another phys ranged job in the next two expansions.
Or they could make BLU a normal job, and lose one of those four new jobs....

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It would of course take more resources to have blue be both limited and normal; however, I would argue it would not take two jobs- it would be more like 1 1/2, because you could use much of the limited resources to build the normal portion.

It's a cup half full half empty thing but you can picture it as well that blue mage is currently one of the easiest normal jobs to implement right now. Much of what normal blue needs already exists, it even has story quests. You may add an extra reward or another side quest or something but much of normal blue could simply saddle up next to limited.

This is actually why I suggested what they could do, and should tell people if they're going to do it, is make a limited job each expansion, adding content to it as they go, and then in the end of that expansion cycle make it go from limited to advanced. This could be the way they go back to three jobs, sort of, per expansion without having to put three up front.

4.5 -> Blue limited
5.0 - 5.5 -> Blue gains more content and matches the current level of our jobs
5.5a/b - > New limited job
5.55 -> Blue becomes 'advanced' (gains normal utility)

As they've already made many resources for the job at the point that they get close to our actual cap, the cost of making them normal goes down significantly (of course it'll still be there, got to balance it).

Like I said obviously not free, but if we're arguing it'll cost to make it a job at least we could agree (?) that it'll likely cost a lot less as many of the quests, mechanics, art, and general lore can be used as a foundation.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Before we had GNB I thought blue mage tank would have been awesome. . . Back when we had stances I thought Immortal Lion and Azure Eye could be their defensive and offensive modes :3.

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Oh yeah, before we had either of those jobs, I thought Blue Magic could be combined into the Gunblade tank (similarly to how AST encompasses Time Mage).

I figured Magitek was essentially stealing and creating 'artificial magic', which screamed Blue Magic to me.
It would suit things like Magic Missile (ranged enmity skill) and Ray Bomb perfectly. Mighty Guard could be it's LB3, etc. Job gauge could unlock your 'acquired' magic, Aqualung, Flamethrower, Trine, etc.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Post 319, 322, 326

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Nope, I can tell you why. All of what you have just mentioned doesn't rely on the Limited Job system. If you move it to the Normal Job system it'll all still be there. It'll be like Fisher with its own exclusive content. The spells that have been shown to us do not rely on Limited Job, it relies on the mobs and the Blue Mage spell book, not the Limited Job system. Masked Carnival will still be there, it doesn't rely on the Limited Job system but rather it relies on Blue Mage being there. Achievements will stay mainly because even when you balance it it still can be doable, just that you may not be able to skip phases. All of the lore can still work, in no way shape or form is that even related to the Limited Job system. All of what you have mentioned is in no way related to the Limited Job system even if it was a Normal Job it'll still be there. There are some RPG games without a Job system and all of these content, lore, mini games and collection are still there. Your point about them gutting Blue Mage is moot and I will give you an analogy for it.

All of the furniture is the Blue Mage and the content itself, while the Limited Job system is a house. The Normal Job system is a different house and already has a wide variety of furniture. We move the Blue Mage furniture to the Normal Job house leaving nothing behind in the Limited Job house. Nothing of value was lost because everything got carried over to the Normal Job House.

It possibly can happen.

Blue Mage has a lot to offer, but it'll be in a much better position when it becomes a Normal Job. Sadly that is the truth, you wanna do current tier savage? Better gear up for it. You need to farm Phantasmagoria, Allegory, Poetics and Clusters? Do the 9 roulettes MSQ included. You want grade 8 materia? Beast Tribes, Cluster Farming are the fastest solution while allied seals is far slower since it is a one time reward per clear of any Masked Carnival stage and Blue Mage Log plus even with the weeklies it is far more effective to do beast tribes for materia and the roulettes for clusters since it is a 1:1 conversion for the clusters.

I disagree, most of the classic jobs can be made into a normal job. Yes FFXI is a whole different game and it has its own thing. So does FFXIV with its job gauge, again it can be balanced but they have to focus on making a job gauge for it first. It cant be easily ignored because what they have now is a solid foundation to make it into a perfectly playable normal job with the ability to customize its moves. Plus caster spam moves or rotation even without a rotation Black Mages can spam Fire III (Even though it is not ideal), Summoner can just spam Ruin III (again, not ideal but they can do it), Red Mages (Not ideal, if they don't want to upset the balance gauge) can spam spells as well. So does White Mages, Scholar and Astrologian. Without Job gauges most of the moves we have now can and could be spammable which would make most of the jobs broken. If they wanna bring in the classic job then they have to approach with every class starting with the Job Gauge.

It doesn't, what we have seen so far with Limited Job is... nothing. We see nothing because the only function it does is housing the job itself. There is no Limited Job roulette, there is no Limited Job content. It is just a system meant to house Jobs just like the Normal Job system if anything it is more of a hindrance since it is only Blue Mages getting content. Plus it allows the excuse for developers to finish a job half done. Who knows maybe the new two new jobs in 6.0 will both be limited job probably because they cannot be bothered. By allowing limited jobs you have just lower the standards, you have just allow jobs to be half finished and not allow into the game and to be just filler content which will die in one to two weeks. As for the number of jobs being added, we could have 10+ more we can theorize or guess but that is as far we can get. Guessing how many will come, but that isn't the issue here. You don't need Limited Job to introduce Beastmaster or Puppetmaster, they just need to start making the job gauges first before anything else alongside with the abilities and skills.

Actually I can, Limited Job as the system itself doesn't consume much time or coding, as I have said it before many times it is a copycat of the normal job but with restrictions and a lower level cap and that is the only difference between the two system with Limited Job being the horrible system. All those resources that are mostly spent on Masked Carnival, Blue Mage Log, Achievements and Spells will still be there even without the Limited Job System the resources spent on Blue Mage is in no way related to the resources spent on the limited job system because there wasn't any spent to begin with. They have just copied the Normal Job system and readjusted it and gave it a different name. If it was then most of it would have a Limited Job only dungeon or a Limited Job only content, but we don't have that (Which thankfully so, content island is a bad design and a waste of investment). However all of Blue Mage content doesn't rely on the need of the Limited Job system, all the system does is house it. So does the Normal Job system. Yeah, sometimes teams have their budget cut to give it to another team, kinda normal in certain businesses under certain circumstances.

You are correct, it doesn't need a full on rework but some few additional major reworks like giving it a job gauge. However it does need to be balanced since it has to be able to play alongside with the other jobs and frankly it can work in normal party composition, just let it be a normal job after the balancing and it should be ready. What Blue Mage is right now is a filler content which is not good, jobs are not filler content they are a way to experience a game.

We could, for example, get Chemist, Geomancer, Mystic Knight and another phys ranged job in the next two expansions.
Or they could make BLU a normal job, and lose one of those four new jobs....[/QUOTE]

Do you even have any proof of that? We can't just assume BLU is just going to take up the resources of the two new jobs. That is highly unlikely, since some practices behind the scenes is that a team can possibly pocket a part of the budget to pool it later for a bigger project for the upcoming future. Not everything is short term, sometimes there even long term plans.

Or... We could have Chemist and Blue Mage as the two new jobs of 6.0. Haven't thought that one did you? Better yet, a surprise where instead of two new jobs it'll be 3 new jobs. All guessing leads to one thing, we all don't know what is going on behind the scenes of the FFXIV team.

How would you know? You wouldn't know that. None of us would know that. For all we know Geomancer may come in 7.0 or far into the future but we don't know. Most of the FF series job have an opportunity to become a job in FFXIV.

Tank Stances but more towards for roles. I mean even Astrologian has something like aetherial mimicry but it works far differently but does the nearly the same thing under certain stances certain spells and abilities will have additional effect based on the stance that is active at the moment.

Yes it has been covered.... BLM with its Thunder Spells as there is a 10% chance per tick it activate thundercloud granting them instant cast, another would be Fire having a 40% chance to proc a free cast Fire III with no cast time. As for Summoner using any of the egi assault will grant you Further Ruin, upgrading your Ruin II to Ruin IV literally empowering it.

That is not reading between the lines, you have just stated what Red Mage literally does. It is only versatile in terms of Resurrecting and having a wider variety of AoE options, they can cure but at the cost of their DPS. People just only use the Verraise Skill and if they were using Vercure then it is because they are in a solo fight or they are in casual content. In high end content red mages rarely use Vercure unless they are trying to Verraise someone. and Summoners can resurrect as well, they have Physick but no one uses it unless it is in a solo situation. The only versatility they have in high end content is their ability to raise and cure and people rather have them using Verraise, however Summoners can raise too so you could say these two jobs have versatility.

Good news for you bud, I love Geomancer too. Bad news I prefer it being a new healer than a caster.

Again, we don't know but I would rather see them work on something half done and complete it before working on something new.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Oh yeah, before we had either of those jobs, I thought Blue Magic could be combined into the Gunblade tank (similarly to how AST encompasses Time Mage).

I figured Magitek was essentially stealing and creating 'artificial magic', which screamed Blue Magic to me.
It would suit things like Magic Missile (ranged enmity skill) and Ray Bomb perfectly. Mighty Guard could be it's LB3, etc.

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Yeah I feel blue mage tank would be pretty cool, also it would make a decent amount of sense that your blue magic is making the enemy mad lol. Nothing like getting fish slap by your own fish XD.

"How can you slap!?!!" lol.

Plus I thought taking FFXI story forward I thought would be fun with Immortal Lion (which totally sounds like a tank stance lol). Azure Eye being their demon eye / sauron eye mode where they focus more on casting.

Gunblade blue mage sounds cool btw. Mighty Guard stay an LB3 would also have been nice :P and make it feel even more epic since it would be.. well an lb XD.

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Without tank I think an offensive support with some sort of safety net design where failed support turns into damage would be the next good place to go since it would allow blue mage some more wonky spells and diversity.

I know people like to point at BLM but I would point more towards SMN if we had to point at another mage as an inspiration point. Red Mage wasn't a terrible example either, but I general dislike black mage as the go to people (usually on the offensive of blue mage) use since it's like "nah.. he has to have some weird stuff and much of that weird stuff CAN work but you need more wiggle room than 'top dps' - also I know you're using BLM as the most generic not even trying example to say we can't have more mages". Although to be fair, SMN is pretty dang good damage and still has nice support so.. ... eh.. Some jobs get to have and eat their cake lol. The fact you said red mage over black mage makes me believe you care to have the conversation more than a usual person saying "hey. . wait a moment . . ". So thumbs up for that :D. Black mage is clearly all power and not much else, Blue has to be at least like RDM or SMN not BLM.

Like their raise could be unique and work both on the dead and the living something akin to a warden's peon. If you cast it on them while they're living it'll last X seconds, at the end it'll either cure them significantly but if they die before the duration is up then they'll be immediately raised instead. Unlike PF where they balanced the job even though they claim to have wanted to make 'true blue' "/flips and throws table" (and made the worst angel whisper in the history of FF), in a normal setting adding a cooldown and giving it such a auto-raise like property would actually make sense (I wouldn't have minded the cooldown on limited as much either if it AT LEAST could auto-raise self, I thought they were going to add that spell so players could final sting something on their lonesome- but no... the worst raise in our game and the worst angel whisper in FF series XD). White Wind for example could also largely be fine so long as it is a choice between damage or support in a mechanic that acts as a sort of cooldown (largely as in you can keep the major theme, and may even improve use case / 'feel', but may need some tweaks on rules), in that situation like if you had a mechanic to fill a bar (in this case I imagine filling a bar that looks like his staff lol), then players have to choose damage or support and should choose damage in all but the most dire situations (like Paladin with their clemency).

They could also be one of the only caster mages that come with an interrupt, bit of a special utility case then.

Then Blue Mage would definitely have more than a dancer (another support job) during boss fights (more closer to SMN / RDM) but situationally could provide short term big support (giving them a bit of a variety feeling that they should have). Bigger burst than Red Mage but not as much breadth (like if you dropped a raise and then a white wind, you'd then have put two mechanics on cooldown in effect one literal one more mechanical, meanwhile red mage is still going 'raise raise raise raise vercure vercure'). Then against trash they're not as bulky but their utility shines even more (making a closer comparison to dancer, meaning blue mage shifts on the scale a bit), locking up and generally just messing with monsters.

Of course you might suggest if they had limited resources, even if blue mage might be cheaper than a normal from fresh slate job to add, that you'd hope they do things even more disparate than whatever we currently have. I'm not entirely against that idea, it's why I usually can be found suggesting things that are "not what we have" lol (like a transformation job, or like a bruiser (damage role) battle mage with Golbez, Ex-Death, Sauron inspiration and a construction sort of take on geomancer magic (which I call Geoknight), or even like dark offensive healer, or while not crazy into chemist theme still think it can be interesting addition- things that looks and plays quite different). I think you can still do that with blue mage, like I think making blue mage work with acts (shifting combos that have lite-decisions, as a sort of melee job meets magic would be a start to that), but I definitely accept the concern and desire for things to be unique as a logical concern. And at least you didn't say BLM which is the worst ideal of BLU, so I believe you're trying more than the most generic "that looks similar to X" rebuttal. Still would you say it's impossible that it would be different enough to be interesting (visually and mechanically), or that it just seems unlikely and that other jobs seem far more likely to be valuable in their addition to the game and so they should be sought for first? The first I'd naturally argue against but the later sounds like a valid personal opinion.

Although I've also been pretty upfront that I would be okay if they actually did what they said and make blue mage go insane, if they want it to be limited then DONT design it around PF balance. Again, worst angel whisper ever lol - which makes sense if you were trying to balance content around party stuff and didn't want it to be too OP, but then that makes their whole reason why blue mage is limited feels more like a cop out then an actual reason ("we wanted to make a cheap (not costly) pf exclusive job and claim we added blue mage so people stop asking for it", is what it ultimately sounds like meanwhile their words of intent for why they did what they did don't line up), certainly part of the salt for this job comes from their communication and the mixed and confused messages that came with it, and then the lack of communication there after.

Current limited blue, as is, was not well designed (imo, but obviously prepared to die on that hill) and either normal or limited it should receive major revisions from the very beginning, it's current design has many flaws and some of that includes just a generally boring design that ONLY gets better if you get lucky with the PF content while it's hot. If you don't its the most uninteresting job, mechanically at least, of the whole game (more simple than Paladin in 2.0 era), to the point equally leveled normal jobs are mechanically more interesting with far more actually valuable tools to use, if you do get that PF exclusive content then congratulations but it was a silly design to make it exist that way (it's not good design to be like "oh yeah it stops being super spammy basic once you're level 60 and you've these 6 more PF exclusive skills on that supposedly primarily solo designed job", not rage inducing but nearly there in terms of logic). Even when you get to the better I would still say it's still poorly designed since their current design makes so many spells worthless - for a job touted to have kits the only way they actually gave players a kit was the most artificial and boring way (via forced trinity and ultimately I think that spell disrupts the quality of future builds, so I don't even think it was a good spell to add), as said before they should look towards Diablo 3 when it's performing at it's peak and how many different builds can be so interesting and useful, or heck even Hades the recent rogue like game from Supergiant with all the boons, poms, and weapons (people who made Bastion / Transistor). If it must be limited then so be it, but it is currently designed in a way where I constantly have to edit my words because I'm not going for cruel.. but the only word that pops into my mind is 'awful' (both on the design and communication front - it's an opinon open to change as I watch what happens but in general, and obviously lol, my view of blue mage currently is rather dim). If it's normal then awesome because I actually think their normal jobs are all pretty fun and enjoyed leveling every single one of them (and have all of them to 80), so I have faith a normal blue would have also been fun (yes I know healers have a problem right now, I even made a thread trying to make a healer that would feel more involved, as well as other tweaks and general like support).

I'm also not entirely against the idea of PF focused limited job but I think choosing blue mage for that is a very bad idea and makes the job poorly designed as a result (forced the trinity on it, have to balance the job they removed form PF due to not wanting to balance it, job relies on the content not dying but the content will organically die because of how it's limited (which is a big issue for blue), progression of skills/job means you're generally the least interesting and most generically designed job for most of your beginning experience (1 skill spam) until you get a specific set of PF exclusive skills, they failed to deliver the spirit of a few skills already due to balance like Angel Whisper or Fire Angon, etc), they should try something else that would flow a lot smoother and as well not have been desired as a main job - for example magitek content (xenogears, zone of the enders, gundam, robotech, etc, no one, or at least almost no one, would have ever expected that to be a normal job, and having a squadron / fleet, would feel very fitting, as well the progression design would be relatively easy to create a flow that allows a smooth transition into content even if it's not 'hot' rather than blue mage where if it's not hot then your blue mage is going to have shallow depth and mechanics).

Naturally when I say normal for blue mage I'm thinking more of 'both' in that situation since I see each part helping the other out really neatly and generally don't like to see content removed (redesigns are okay though, if blue is to never become normal than I hope the current limited blue is revamped from the beginning to the end). Like by just having a normal side you already fix many of the issues of the current limited and it even helps out the normal side too- you could learn your DF spells in limited form or your limited in DF form, get access to a huge library but DF could be parsed down for balance, etc.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

"Like their raise could be unique ..."

"... it's current design has many flaws and some of that includes just a generally boring design ..."

"... I think choosing blue mage for that is a very bad idea and makes the job poorly designed as a result (forced the trinity on it, have to balance the job they removed form PF due to not wanting to balance it"

"Naturally when I say normal for blue mage I'm thinking more of 'both' ...

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I like this idea, personally i think the current Caster meta is definitely imbalanced especially in savager raid/optimized situation, it's how BLM doesn't have a raise skill "because of lore", when they only dish out a little bit more damage but need a lot of optimization compared to SMN. Also there's no way people would take RDM over SMN, the only times people will take RDM over SMN is either when they "just personally like the job better", or they're just trying to breeze through raid progression with Ver-raise and switch over to SMN/BLM when need the dps, especially in early weeks of savage raid. For me it's "either remove all the raise skills from casters, or give all of them raise skills". With your idea, we can have a highly mechanical and situational raise skill where they don't just "swiftcast and push a button", i think it'll be a lot more balanced this way.

Yes, we're kind of a little late to the game because of how deep we are in the limited job hole. People coming to the game late or just not having time to play BLU when it's released already set them back by a lot, most people only grind hard like in the first week and then it becomes a kind of "dead content" where there are barely any people doing it, and most of the time you just ask your circle of friends to help you out to get skills(that is, implying everyone have that circle of friend to help them out). With how almost all the OGCDs locked behind primals it really is just one skill spamming if you don't get them, as most of the skills you can get in the overworld are just gimmick skills that you don't really use in real situations. Although to be fair, when you get 8 BLUs to do synced savage content, they need a lot of optimization because they essentially have 8 "trick attacks", and how they can skip mechanics with Diamondback, and burst the boss to death in the final percentage with Flute+Final Sting.

Lastly, the current BLU doesn't work because how lacking they are in the tanking and healing department, and FFXIV fights is designed around the role trinity, and just won't work without them. It's a bit ironic because i remember them saying that they made BLU limited because they don't want to spend a lot of resources balancing them out, when in fact the they do still have to balance them.
I'm also more of a "just make BLU both Limited and Normal Job" instead of just deleting the Limited right out because some people out there probably enjoys how BLU are right now. I just want SE to do the job justice.

They are just trying something new with blue mage and trying to add some contents in the minor patch so basically blue mage is what it is. It's just a filler. This idea of making blue mage as limited job is kinda killing the job considered it has its own progress and party oriented. people who start late will probably having a really bad time and they will stop bothering about blue mage. Balancing blue mage to become a normal job will take some efforts but it's doable. It's just whether they want to do it or just making a new class instead.

Blue Mage is fine the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Alysella

people who start late will probably having a really bad time and they will stop bothering about blue mage.

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Maybe in theory, but people are still picking it up.
Just like how people still pick up Triple Triad.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Oh yeah, before we had either of those jobs, I thought Blue Magic could be combined into the Gunblade tank (similarly to how AST encompasses Time Mage).

I figured Magitek was essentially stealing and creating 'artificial magic', which screamed Blue Magic to me.
It would suit things like Magic Missile (ranged enmity skill) and Ray Bomb perfectly. Mighty Guard could be it's LB3, etc. Job gauge could unlock your 'acquired' magic, Aqualung, Flamethrower, Trine, etc.

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Blue Bullet from X-2. That would be pretty cool. I thought GNB was going to be very Mystic Knight like as well from the little they showed us of the actions teaser reveal, but blue bullet from gunblade would have been really interesting reinvention of the wheel

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Originally Posted by SamsonBlacke

Blue Mage is fine the way it is.

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Blue Mage is not fine as a Limited Job

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Maybe in theory, but people are still picking it up.
Just like how people still pick up Triple Triad.

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u just don't know how many people giving up after reach level 60 BLU . like they levelling easily then after that their realize the end game content of BLU is troublesome (Savage 8man BLU) , yeah you can try catch up easily with other people help. But enjoying the end game content as BLU? I don't think so. Currently people just abusing BLU for FATE farming on Yokai only. so if people say BLU is fine , because they only think to abuse thing like this with BLU not really care about BLU personally.

Don't say thing about the carnival.. people only do it once for the achievement and no one will bother to re-enter it.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Maybe in theory, but people are still picking it up.
Just like how people still pick up Triple Triad.

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You can't compare them. Blue mage is a class. They can just make it the same with other classes and not some limited class. Alll other classes have their own uniqueness. They just need to do it

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Originally Posted by Alysella

You can't compare them. Blue mage is a class. They can just make it the same with other classes and not some limited class. Alll other classes have their own uniqueness. They just need to do it

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A class as side content is still just that, side content. They don't have any reason to do more than that.

And if they want another caster, they could just, I don't know, add another caster.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

A class as side content is still just that, side content. They don't have any reason to do more than that.

And if they want another caster, they could just, I don't know, add another caster.

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Not to play devil's advocate, but all crafters/gatherers can technically be called limited classes too. Nothing but side content if you think about it. Completely optional, and can go through the game without even touching one if you don't want to. But very beneficial if you do.
Maybe BLU need to have a reason outside of the Carnival or some mount. Maybe some profitable thing to their use, or something. Maybe give them a trait that increases overworld enemy death drop rates by a high percentage. Go hunting for mats on your BLU I had suggested something years ago for a better way to farm enemy mats besides mug, or sending/waiting on retainers to come back from Ventures. Maybe BLU could fill that role since they already are overworld destroyers. The limited level would then give people incentive to go party up in the higher zones for mats.

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Originally Posted by Mariel_Crystallie

u just don't know how many people giving up after reach level 60 BLU .

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Do you?
If you have a clear idea please share your numbers and sources.
I think they'd do a lot to help the discussion.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Do you?
If you have a clear idea please share your numbers and sources.
I think they'd do a lot to help the discussion.

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There is no such information and I doubt you even have a strong or clear idea of what you are saying. I mean... I don't even play triple triad or even bother playing it. I already gave up halfway doing my Blue Mage considering it takes time and effort to play the class. Plus the skills I want to get are in dungeons, trials and raids. I'd rather queue in duty finder than wait in party finder for more than an hour or even wait for Party Finder to have a party with the skills I want, I did attempt to start it and we waited for about 1-2 hrs before giving up getting a full group for one spell (We only managed to grab 3 people). Sure we can do it with 3 people, but with a random chance? No thank you, I rather do one guarantee run and that is it.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Do you?
If you have a clear idea please share your numbers and sources.
I think they'd do a lot to help the discussion.

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maybe come down from your high horse to our DC and see.
already disregarding the JP Only PF, chances to find high-end blue mage pf are low. even more for skills-collecting dungeon.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Not to play devil's advocate, but all crafters/gatherers can technically be called limited classes too. Nothing but side content if you think about it. Completely optional, and can go through the game without even touching one if you don't want to. But very beneficial if you do.
Maybe BLU need to have a reason outside of the Carnival or some mount. Maybe some profitable thing to their use, or something. Maybe give them a trait that increases overworld enemy death drop rates by a high percentage. Go hunting for mats on your BLU I had suggested something years ago for a better way to farm enemy mats besides mug, or sending/waiting on retainers to come back from Ventures. Maybe BLU could fill that role since they already are overworld destroyers. The limited level would then give people incentive to go party up in the higher zones for mats.

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I wouldn't be opposed to this. Giving BLU more long-term incentives to play it would always be a welcome addition. However, if we're sticking with the crafter/gatherer comparison, I would prefer them not focus on the gil making as an incentive, but rather on the reward structure of say the Restoration. XIV is already a game where you can make gil by barely trying. If anything, XIV needs more gil sinks. Imagine BLU/limited jobs granting access to some expensive mounts and glamour that cost 10s of millions a piece. Maybe won't fly well with this crowd.

Adding more long-term rewards and using older content would be great way to extend the longevity and save on developmental costs. Still basing on the DoH/DoL, maybe give their own unique currency to purchase these items. But I don't know if they're really interested in putting more investment than they already do into another branch of jobs alongside the DoW/DoM and DoL/DoH.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

I wouldn't be opposed to this. Giving BLU more long-term incentives to play it would always be a welcome addition. However, if we're sticking with the crafter/gatherer comparison, I would prefer them not focus on the gil making as an incentive, but rather on the reward structure of say the Restoration. XIV is already a game where you can make gil by barely trying. If anything, XIV needs more gil sinks. Imagine BLU/limited jobs granting access to some expensive mounts and glamour that cost 10s of millions a piece. Maybe won't fly well with this crowd.

Adding more long-term rewards and using older content would be great way to extend the longevity and save on developmental costs. Still basing on the DoH/DoL, maybe give their own unique currency to purchase these items. But I don't know if they're really interested in putting more investment than they already do into another branch of jobs alongside the DoW/DoM and DoL/DoH.

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How about making it a normal job, that is more than enough of an incentive! :D

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Originally Posted by tyranical69

How about making it a normal job, that is more than enough of an incentive! :D

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BLU is a godsend doing the relic FATEs currently. But I can agree with both of you/ btw i was just spitballing suggestions, honestly i would like to see a new DOL handle animal mats, like a trapper type or something. Honestly wish there was more to purchase with Alliance Seals, you can get materia from doing fairy beast tribes(new zone fate gems? not sure havent bothered grinding them yet) So many other methods to get them, it would actually be really nice if they did offer something new and BLU only for profit, or just something to lengthen the content. We dont really know what is coming in 5.4 yet...i have a feeling BLU is getting the 5/45 sadly...

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Do you?
If you have a clear idea please share your numbers and sources.
I think they'd do a lot to help the discussion.

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well at least on my Data Center it's really hard to find a group that willing do the BLU stuffs , and Elemental data center was the biggest on raiding scene community . Even not all my member static want to do it , force me to do find some member to clear the savage achievement for few weeks. After I finally got the clear & morbol mount , no one in my team want to do it anymore. This is why I said this content was a dead content , once you clear once you never want touch it anymore either its savage/carnival. Dev. need to stop making a content like this and wasting a chance to make BLU to become a normal job instead.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...768/bluuuu.jpg

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Adding more long-term rewards and using older content would be great way to extend the longevity and save on developmental costs. Still basing on the DoH/DoL, maybe give their own unique currency to purchase these items. But I don't know if they're really interested in putting more investment than they already do into another branch of jobs alongside the DoW/DoM and DoL/DoH.

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It already have those i think, i can't remember all of them but i remember one in particular, the Cute Justice minion, iirc you have to finish the Masked Carnivale to some point so you can unlock and buy it. But to be really honest it's both not enough and not worth it, all the skill grinds and effort to clear Carnivale just for ONE minion? It doesn't even have the mechanical sound that all the other alexander minions have! i remember my disappointment after getting them and finding out about this.

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Originally Posted by Volsungr

maybe come down from your high horse to our DC and see.
already disregarding the JP Only PF, chances to find high-end blue mage pf are low. even more for skills-collecting dungeon.

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I don't understand why my horse is high for asking for information someone implied they had, but I'm sorry to hear high end BLU PFs are rare on your server.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Adding more long-term rewards and using older content would be great way to extend the longevity and save on developmental costs. Still basing on the DoH/DoL, maybe give their own unique currency to purchase these items. But I don't know if they're really interested in putting more investment than they already do into another branch of jobs alongside the DoW/DoM and DoL/DoH.

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Well DoH/DoL still contributing a lot in your game progression like food / crafted gear or even gil farming. but what BLU does to game? destroying FATE by abusing the skills.. yeah its good for veteran player that only want quick farm on something like yokai/new relic/speed run Aurum Vale for mog tome. but let's be real , you know since Shadowbringers up many new players was coming and SE feels like want to make an event to veteran player help new player having a good experience by having the FATE back to active again on ARR/HW/SB maps. Sadly currently people only abusing BLU for farming this stuff which is very bad. This won't be happened if BLU was normal job and getting balanced like other jobs.

As for long-term rewards they already have emote , minion and the mount from savage achievement, but the effort to get them all was pretty yikes and thus many of my friends giving up on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mariel_Crystallie

Well DoH/DoL still contributing a lot in your game progression like food / crafted gear or even gil farming. but what BLU does to game? destroying FATE by abusing the skills.. yeah its good for veteran player that only want quick farm on something like yokai/new relic/speed run Aurum Vale for mog tome. but let's be real , you know since Shadowbringers up many new players was coming and SE feels like want to make an event to veteran player help new player having a good experience by having the FATE back to active again on ARR/HW/SB maps. Sadly currently people only abusing BLU for farming this stuff which is very bad. This won't be happened if BLU was normal job and getting balanced like other jobs.

As for long-term rewards they already have emote , minion and the mount from savage achievement, but the effort to get them all was pretty yikes and thus many of my friends giving up on it.

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The funny thing is it's kinda ironic that they gonna have to keep balancing current BLU even though they're LIMITED JOB that's supposed to be limited because SE doesn't want to spend time and resources to balance them, because balancing normal jobs are hard(we're kinda in a good job meta right now, though there are still some jobs weaker than the other, but in Stormblood it was horrendous). First was the Carnivale thing that made them "nerf" the suicide skills by putting death cooldown on them. And just recently new problem arise in an event where you have to farm things in FATEs and those FATEs are one shotted by BLUs, i personally don't think too much of it because i'm not really interested in the event, but a lot of people does. It's silly that they made this job a limited job entirely because they don't want to put too much work in it but they end up having to put extra work for it.

I mean if they are balancing Blue Mage it is kinda sus, since they don't want to balance a limited job. Yeah they starting to put in extra effort when they said they didn't want to and they are now trying to keeping it alive allowing it to Level to 70. Level 90 Blue Mage Normal job in 2021, I hope and pray to the gods!

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Originally Posted by omeganova45

I mean if they are balancing Blue Mage it is kinda sus, since they don't want to balance a limited job. Yeah they starting to put in extra effort when they said they didn't want to and they are now trying to keeping it alive allowing it to Level to 70. Level 90 Blue Mage Normal job in 2021, I hope and pray to the gods!

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I know it might not be popular opinion, but i feel like limited job is just a status its given till theyve fine tuned it, honestly. Otherwise the rebalancing is kind of silly(but also due to answering complaints like missile being unfair in FATEs etc) I think if it is one thing they seem to show is that they like to attempt to do things differently from time to time. Take Rogue/Ninja for instance, they tried to introduce a new job before an expansion and decided adding it, so close to 3 new jobs in HW was a bit more work than theyd like to do ever again. So what would be the next way of introducing a new job midway through a couple expansion cycles they are unsure to begin with whether it will work or not? Add it as limited through a couple expansions and keep updating it until its ready. If 6.0 rolls around and we get a job other than 1 new healer, and its a ranged physical dps, i dont bet often but probably by 6.4 BLU will just become the 4th caster job It might be frustrating for a lot of people right now, who are unwilling willing beta testers for the job, but perhaps theyve purposefully added all these redundant reskinned skills to ease the fans into accepting that possibly, having set skills and a rotation of the best abilities it has to offer at least as the full time job, is totally ok considering there isnt much variance at all in the many spells you learn. Ive come to that point. at 74/80 skills now. There are so many i could do without being on my hotbars(self destruct, final sting), and some i wont ever take off.

I’m calling it now. I don’t care if I’m wrong later. They pushing BLU to 70 now. Next expansion the new jobs will start at 70 including the BLU job :) which will be a normal job. I’m calling it.

We have our first all rounder Trust and BLU will be our first all rounder normal job. Calling it! Hehe

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I’m calling it now. I don’t care if I’m wrong later. They pushing BLU to 70 now. Next expansion the new jobs will start at 70 including the BLU job :) which will be a normal job. I’m calling it.

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Honestly wouldn't be shocked at this, as I was thinking it myself. I refuse to get my hopes up though, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I’m calling it now. I don’t care if I’m wrong later. They pushing BLU to 70 now. Next expansion the new jobs will start at 70 including the BLU job :) which will be a normal job. I’m calling it.

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My thoughts exactly!