Healers need an overhaul

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Originally Posted by rewd

There is Toxicon, but it is DPS neutral

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assuming you have already got a charge of addersting.
usually Toxikon is a 50% damage loss

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

assuming you have already got a charge of addersting.
usually Toxikon is a 50% damage loss

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Indeed, I'm just talking about the stacks you get at the start and those from a possible downtime. I don't even consider GCD heals as SGE.

The whole game needs a over haul before healers will feel good again.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Indeed, I'm just talking about the stacks you get at the start and those from a possible downtime. I don't even consider GCD heals as SGE.

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At this point, all heals should be moved to an ogcd and all attacks/utility/whatever be a gcd, with maybe a few exceptions like lilies. I mean, it's been the average playstyle for years, but not "officially" since obviously the devs think of healers as little more than curebots.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

At this point, all heals should be moved to an ogcd and all attacks/utility/whatever be a gcd, with maybe a few exceptions like lilies. I mean, it's been the average playstyle for years, but not "officially" since obviously the devs think of healers as little more than curebots.

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Firstly, there needs to be some level of safety net healing on the GCD, like Benefic II and Helios. These can stay DPS losses, but should be much more effective at helping struggling healers salvage a messy run.

Examples:
Cure II and Medica generate 1 Lily upon use. If you're out of lilies and struggling to heal, these give you stronger healing resources and allow you to combo heal your way out of that mess.
Emergency Tactics should guarantee Adloquium and Succor are critical heals, significantly boosting their healing potential.
Diagnosis and Prognosis should allow you 1 use of your Addersgall heals that does not consume Addersgall and is independent of their cooldowns.

This accomplishes a few things: It makes GCD heals that are often used as clutches for inexperienced healers far more effective at carrying them through content. It increases the skill floor on healing as messy runs are easier to salvage when other resources have run dry. Because they are still DPS losses, skilled healing gameplay still disincentives their use, so rather than buffing optimal healing resources, it instead simply acts as a stronger safety net.

Beyond that, remaining GCD healing can exist if it provides DPS neutral returns with proper usage. This needs to be handled carefully and correctly, but the lily system, for example, can be a really healthy system. Rather than making every healer a DPS Support that weaves healing, we should instead have healers with different toolkits that cater to different playstyles. SGE can be hyper aggressive while AST could instead pass its DPS onto other players while it focuses on buffs and utility on the GCD instead.

I’m happy with WHM but would like to see some QOL such as making lily bell 2 minutes instead of there but other than that, I like where WHM is in the game.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

The whole game needs a over haul before healers will feel good again.

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I'm willing to settle for a few more DPS buttons, should be less work for the devs :D

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

I'm willing to settle for a few more DPS buttons, should be less work for the devs :D

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I'm just gonna quote myself from another post I made in healer sub-forum not long ago:

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

A pet peeve that I’ve developed ever since the DPS neutral misery and 20s lily timer was added is how abundant the random WHMs who are still not relying on their lilies. Cure I, Cure II, Medica, Medica II spammer in lv80/90 duties. Holy moly, what are they doing with their now-overabundant lilies?

Squeenix can lower the lily timer to 5s per 1 lily and I’ll still see these spammers ignoring their lilies any days. They are no use unless the WHM are actually using them.

Tell me, what’s so stinky from the lily that they just don’t want to touch it? /s

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The bolded part: we can certainly use more DPS buttons, too. Since those healers aren't even touching their new shiny healy buttons!

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I'm just gonna quote myself from another post I made in healer sub-forum not long ago:


The bolded part: we can certainly use more DPS buttons, too. Since those healers aren't even touching their new shiny healy buttons!

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Just wanted to clarify something I learned/did/still do(Not anymore since I don't play WHM).

Not sure if we're talking about the same content but during pulls(w2w) lilies really shine while you're running mid pull to the finish of the pull in a complete pull I usually only use my lilies to avoid capping them.
This is mainly because of the nature of insta-cast GCDs. Unlike early game healing where everything is basically benediction to the tank late game dungeon healing is keeping sustain healing/mit on the tank, basically mob dps vs tank hps.

Insta-cast GCDs will always put you behind on regular hard cast GCDs because the GCD has been shifted from a back-end heal to a front-end heal so unless you can continue to keep casting insta-cast GCDs then the next hard cast GCD is going to be slower overall(More like longer vs shorter) than if you just casted 2 hard casts because you have to go from a front end heal to a back end heal.
This isn't super important except during dungeon pulls where EVERYTHING has been blown, dps is low and now you're stuck GCD healing a tank with no mit and using one of your limited insta-cast GCDs will put you behind the damage tick from the mobs if they don't die before you run out of insta-cast GCDs.

A GCD is still a GCD regardless of insta or hard but the difference of when the healing comes out can be fairly deadly in specific situations.

Though this was a lot more important back when healer was actually required and not just a requirement of the queue and you could pull more than 3-4 packs of mobs and tanks didn't have higher HPS than healers in a vacuum.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

WHM - Just give them more nukes. Quake, Tornado, Flood. WHM go kaboom. WHM don't need heal tie-ins.

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This is good and ties in several iconic FF abilities that Black Mages have decided to abandon between FFXI and FFXIV, but also, I need to mention Aero 3.

I'm still mad about Aero 3.

Mr. Yoshida, I'm looking directly at you right now (in a stern but non-threatening way). What did you do to my Aero 3?

Actually while I'm at it, Shadow Flare. And Bane. And Miasma 2.

Oh no, I better stop before I start writing an essay...

Anyway I agree with this post, yes yes.

I know this is hopelessly unfashionable, but I enjoy running my SGE a lot, and my SCH and WHM only slightly less so.
YMMV. (AST I haven't touched since Heavensward.)

But I'm just a "filthy casual" here to enjoy the game with my wife and friends.
I used to be in a couple of static raid groups (in another MMORPG) but that's too much commitment and drama for me these days. But maybe I'll try being in a static again when I retire in a few years ...

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

I know this is hopelessly unfashionable, but I enjoy running my SGE a lot, and my SCH and WHM only slightly less so.
YMMV. (AST I haven't touched since Heavensward.)

But I'm just a "filthy casual" here to enjoy the game with my wife and friends.
I used to be in a couple of static raid groups (in another MMORPG) but that's too much commitment and drama for me these days. But maybe I'll try being in a static again when I retire in a few years ...

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You are allowed to like the current state of healers. The issue comes when people give legitimate criticism of the current design and the response we get from other players is "Well, I like it so there is no need to even adress it."
It adds more insult to injury when the players that like the current design admit to not really caring for optimization or DPS or have no desire to learn their kits.

The biggest criticism the forums have for healers is "1 button nuke spam" during downtime. It's not the existence of downtime itself, it's not the classes being accessible or simple. It's the fact that any minimum amount of optimization with a healer rewards you with incredibly dull and repetitive gameplay.

This game has a leveling curve. Why on earth are we stuck with the same buttons from level 16 to level 90 to fill up 70-90% of our gameplay as healers.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

You are allowed to like the current state of healers. The issue comes when people give legitimate criticism of the current design and the response we get from other players is "Well, I like it so there is no need to even adress it."
It adds more insult to injury when the players that like the current design admit to not really caring for optimization or DPS or have no desire to learn their kits.

The biggest criticism the forums have for healers is "1 button nuke spam" during downtime. It's not the existence of downtime itself, it's not the classes being accessible or simple. It's the fact that any minimum amount of optimization with a healer rewards you with incredibly dull and repetitive gameplay.

This game has a leveling curve. Why on earth are we stuck with the same buttons from level 16 to level 90 to fill up 70-90% of our gameplay as healers.

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Someone who uses the drive through isn't going to care what state the dining room is in for a fast food restaurant, but an ugly and/or dirty dining area will push away people that to go in and eat. Even though many big name fast food restaurants had high financial success, many of them still invested in cleaning up and stylizing their dining areas to attract more people.

If the responsibility of healing is the food and the dining area is the gameplay, casual players passing through the drive through won't care what you do with the interior as long as you don't tear down the building, but it will continue to drive away those of us who want to stay and sit for the food.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

If the responsibility of healing is the food and the dining area is the gameplay, casual players passing through the drive through won't care what you do with the interior as long as you don't tear down the building, but it will continue to drive away those of us who want to stay and sit for the food.

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Meanwhile, I'm over by the window, trying to wipe the spilled soda off of my seat while scanning around for roaches and roadkill in and around my burger.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

You are allowed to like the current state of healers. The issue comes when people give legitimate criticism of the current design and the response we get from other players is "Well, I like it so there is no need to even adress it."
It adds more insult to injury when the players that like the current design admit to not really caring for optimization or DPS or have no desire to learn their kits.

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Personal attacks on people with different likes than you won't convince them or SquareEnix of anything;
at least a few of us casual healers do care about maxing our DPS when we're not healing. That's part of the fun.

For some people "this isn't my preference" seems indistinguishable from "this is wrong and must be eliminated!"
It's an all-too-common affliction these days, and it's the opposite of productive.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether there's more people like me paying subscriptions for FFXIV than there are like you.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Personal attacks on people with different likes than you won't convince them or SquareEnix of anything;
at least a few of us casual healers do care about maxing our DPS when we're not healing. That's part of the fun.

For some people "this isn't my preference" seems indistinguishable from "this is wrong and must be eliminated!"
It's an all-too-common affliction these days, and it's the opposite of productive.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether there's more people like me paying subscriptions for FFXIV than there are like you.

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It's really not a personal attack.

Every player's enjoyment matters equally, but there's a difference in the understanding of the role between someone who's healed at all levels of content, casual, midcore, and hardcore, or who's been healing since SB, HW, or even ARR, and someone who's only healed casually, who's only started FFXIV recently, or who doesn't main healing. Who do you think has more creditable feedback?

Healing suffers a very unique issue where it's issues are not apparently to new, learning, casual, or flex healers because of how players engage with the responsibility of healing. Those types of players find lost HP scarier. They feel the adrenaline much more easily because they don't realize that no one will take damage for another 20 seconds. They're prone to overhealing out of fear of leaving someone unhealed and out of a lack of understanding on how the healing role is played. You know how frequently I encounter SCH and SGE players in things like trial roulette who cast Succor/E. Prognosis constantly? The thing about that is it makes healing more engaging even though it's terribly optimized.

It's only when you start learning how to improve that the reward for your skill is utter monotony. This makes it that much harder to give reasonable feedback at a low skill or casual perspective of healing. And it's not as though the majority of more experienced healers on the forums are advocating for things that harm casual players. On the contrary, the majority desire to raise the skill floor to make healing actually easier for new or casual healers while expanding on the gameplay for experienced healers to have fun in all levels of content.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Personal attacks on people with different likes than you won't convince them or SquareEnix of anything;
at least a few of us casual healers do care about maxing our DPS when we're not healing. That's part of the fun.

For some people "this isn't my preference" seems indistinguishable from "this is wrong and must be eliminated!"
It's an all-too-common affliction these days, and it's the opposite of productive.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether there's more people like me paying subscriptions for FFXIV than there are like you.

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Yes yes, we know 1111111111111111111111 is *so fun*. None of our criticisms are legitimate. It's simply a disagreement between evil current-design-dislikers and the cool current-design-enjoyers. We're making it all up just to be mean, and all would be well if we simply gave up and left the role to the 1111111111111111 enjoyed.

What stunning, fantastic game design, I cave to its superiority.

My biggest issue is that you don't see people who want to increase the skill ceiling get in the way of people who want to decrease the skill floor.

The opposite is not true.

When anyone tries to increase the skill ceiling everyone immediately goes to "think of the children(skill floor)." when it has no impact on the skill floor other than distancing itself further from the ceiling.

You are upset because of the preconceived notion that by increasing the gap between the skill ceiling & the skill floor that the class will change, that how you play at the floor will change or become less accessible, it won't but you wouldn't know that because your skill level has only been at below average for the past 8 years. The only thing that will change is now more people will have fun and they'll know you have no idea what you're doing.

People like the ones I'm describing get in the way of progress simply because any change at all could only be bad for them and they don't care if other people aren't having fun.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It's really not a personal attack.

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Well we disagree on that. And some of the other replies indisputably are personal attacks.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Every player's enjoyment matters equally, but there's a difference in the understanding of the role between someone who's healed at all levels of content, casual, midcore, and hardcore, or who's been healing since SB, HW, or even ARR, and someone who's only healed casually, who's only started FFXIV recently, or who doesn't main healing. Who do you think has more creditable feedback?

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Mine, for how I've been playing the game since 2015.
I don't know what the "hardcore" players need: I don't have their perspective, and I'll do them the courtesy of not pretending I do. It would be nice if they returned that favor.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Healing suffers a very unique issue where it's issues are not apparently to new, learning, casual, or flex healers because of how players engage with the responsibility of healing. Those types of players find lost HP scarier. ... They're prone to overhealing out of fear of leaving someone unhealed ...

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If I was ever "scared" of people having low HP, it was years ago.
These days, I'm just amused when, for example, a tank dies because he ran out of my range or LoS'd me in a W2W trash pull. It's all part of the fun, and how people learn.

Besides, in the immortal words of Vince Lombardi, "the best defense is a good offense." Like dead DPS, dead mobs do no damage. So if the tank dies in a W2W pull but all the mobs die too, as happened in a recent pub run with me on SCH and two decent RPRs on DPS, that seems a fair trade. :)

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It's only when you start learning how to improve that the reward for your skill is utter monotony.

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Maybe you need to pug more. There's nothing monotonous about running with tanks and/or DPS who don't know their kit, don't know the mechanics, or both. I don't even find it frustrating, because I don't have high expectations for pugging, and certainly don't expect a fast clear.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

People like the ones I'm describing get in the way of progress simply because any change at all could only be bad for them and they don't care if other people aren't having fun.

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Huh. If you're one of the billions of people on Earth that I don't know, I don't even care whether you're getting enough to eat, much less whether you're "having fun." Otherwise I'd be sending my FFXIV subscription money to charity, and -- like you -- I'm not.

Also, after all, wouldn't it be arrogant to pretend to understand what makes something fun for other people? Tastes vary, after all. I don't like tea. My spouse doesn't like espresso. We don't understand the other's reasons, but we're both okay with it.

That said, I personally have never said anything about opposing change, I simply stated that I'm enjoying healing as it is now. I'm not opposed to change per se.

However, I do prefer the old animation for Holy. YMMV.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Well we disagree on that. And some of the other replies indisputably are personal attacks.

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The first response you relied to wasn’t a personal attack. It was merely a statement of fact that wasn’t even directed at you.

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Mine, for how I've been playing the game since 2015.

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How convenient. I, too, started playing this game in late 2015. So now which one of us is more important? Do you see how you cannot base whose feedback is the most meaningful around playtime? Just because someone has been playing for longer doesn’t mean their feedback with regards to any topic is more important.

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I don't know what the "hardcore" players need: I don't have their perspective, and I'll do them the courtesy of not pretending I do. It would be nice if they returned that favor.

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This could be turned right back against you. Keep that in mind. It would be nice if a lot of the people on here that argue with healer mains that want something to change would take a step back and really consider why the former group is asking for change in the first place.

It’s not as if all hardcore players don’t do casual content or don’t remember what it was like before they started raiding. “Hardcore” healers asking for more engagement—be it via more healing needed or variety in a damage rotation—are unlikely to affect those playing at a casual level.

I don’t know if you are aware, but even our “hardcore” content suffers from lack of healer engagement. I spend 80% or more of my time casting Dosis III. I have usually anywhere from 100 to 150 or more casts of it depending on the fight kill time. I don’t heal with GCDs. I can basically autopilot. It’s incredibly boring, and it’s disheartening that even tough content cannot be engaging for healers.

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Maybe you need to pug more. There's nothing monotonous about running with tanks and/or DPS who don't know their kit, don't know the mechanics, or both. I don't even find it frustrating, because I don't have high expectations for pugging, and certainly don't expect a fast clear.

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I really dislike this argument. Why do healers have to go out of their way to find fun and engagement in their role? Do DPS have to do this? What about tanks? Why are healers the only one that get to be bored? Why are healers the only ones who need to go find clown fiesta parties to have fun? Is there a reason we can’t just have fun and be engaged all the time?

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Maybe you need to pug more. There's nothing monotonous about running with tanks and/or DPS who don't know their kit, don't know the mechanics, or both. I don't even find it frustrating, because I don't have high expectations for pugging, and certainly don't expect a fast clear.

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What a god awful take. There is absolutely an issue with the job design if the only way to have fun with the job is to seek out subpar players.

I wrote:
There's nothing monotonous about running with tanks and/or DPS who don't know their kit, don't know the mechanics, or both. I don't even find it frustrating, because I don't have high expectations for pugging, and certainly don't expect a fast clear.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I really dislike this argument. Why do healers have to go out of their way to find fun and engagement in their role?

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Go out of my way? You mean, by doing duty roulettes?

As in all of life, you can either find a way to enjoy what the game offers you, or not.
Totally up to you.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

What a god awful take. There is absolutely an issue with the job design if the only way to have fun with the job is to seek out subpar players.

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Who said it was the only way? And although it seems odd to have to tell someone with such a strong opinion on healing this, no one (i.e., not tanks or DPS either) needs to "seek out subpar players." Just run duty roulettes, and you can't avoid them.

Do try to remember, though, that just about everyone was a sub par players at some point.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s not as if all hardcore players don’t do casual content or don’t remember what it was like before they started raiding. “Hardcore” healers asking for more engagement—be it via more healing needed or variety in a damage rotation—are unlikely to affect those playing at a casual level.

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In a world where FFXIV had infinite development resources to allocate, that might be true. But we don't live in that world.
Every change consumes development budget. So every change comes at a cost: other changes not made, less and/or lower quality content being developed, and so on.

But feel free to keep asking for the change you want.
I'm saying, quite simply, that I don't want what you want, and by implication would rather SE directed their efforts elsewhere.
Like to more quality content, for example, I never don't want that.

I have no expectation that I will convince the "healers need an overhaul" contingent to agree with me.
I just want SE to hear that yes, some people like what they've done with healers (especially with SGE).
It's regrettable if people on this thread can't tolerate seeing that put in print, but it's still true.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

I wrote:

There's nothing monotonous about running with tanks and/or DPS who don't know their kit, don't know the mechanics, or both. I don't even find it frustrating, because I don't have high expectations for pugging, and certainly don't expect a fast clear.

Go out of my way? You mean, by doing duty roulettes?

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Yes. You do have to go out of your way. The average duty roulette is just that: average. People aren’t dying left and right; I can keep the tank alive with oGCDs if they somehow forget about their self-mitigations and heals. DPS may eat an AOE or two, but nothing my oGCD toolkit won’t solve. I don’t really have to lift much of a finger in the average duty finder run.

What I do have to do is find true meme parties to feel engaged on healer. It’s the main reason why I always heal 24-mans on the day they release: people are going to eat stuff, people are going to die, and I will actually have to go into damage control. I finally get to be an actual healer, and not just a gimped damage dealer. Because that’s what healers are at this point: gimped damage dealers. We certainly aren’t healers. Content is being done without us—that’s how “valuable” we are.

I spam old 24-mans—specifically Dun Scaith and Orbonne Monastery and sometimes the NieR raids—just to get that one party that is a complete mess. The main way for a healer to remain engaged is to basically go out of their way and find groups like that. In any average group, you are pressing one button the majority of the time: be it your AOE or your single-target nuke. And you are doing little to no thought while doing so.

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As in all of life, you can either find a way to enjoy what the game offers you, or not.
Totally up to you.

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Or…the developers could make healing at all levels engaging. Be it by giving us more to heal, or by giving us an actual rotation or something else to do other than spam Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis until our keybind breaks. That sounds like a much better alternative instead of what you suggested: telling us to go find parties that are basically a mess.

Or, you know, instead of the developers themselves telling us to go do Ultimate. I’ve healed Ultimates. They don’t require nearly the amount of healing you would think a fight with the tag “ultimate” would require. And if the hardest fights in the game require so little healing compared to the amount of damage abilities I’m using, then how do you think normal content is?

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

In a world where FFXIV had infinite development resources to allocate, that might be true. But we don't live in that world.
Every change consumes development budget. So every change comes at a cost: other changes not made, less and/or lower quality content being developed, and so on.

But feel free to keep asking for the change you want.
I'm saying, quite simply, that I don't want what you want, and by implication would rather SE directed their efforts elsewhere.
Like to more quality content, for example, I never don't want that.

I have no expectation that I will convince the "healers need an overhaul" contingent to agree with me.
I just want SE to hear that yes, some people like what they've done with healers (especially with SGE).
It's regrettable if people on this thread can't tolerate seeing that put in print, but it's still true.

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Healers have been asking for changes for years. Since late Stormblood/Shadowbringers release. It’s sad that people would rather see us silenced because “it’s fine the way it is because I said so” versus actually considering what those asking for change are saying.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Who said it was the only way? And although it seems odd to have to tell someone with such a strong opinion on healing this, no one (i.e., not tanks or DPS either) needs to "seek out subpar players." Just run duty roulettes, and you can't avoid them.

Do try to remember, though, that just about everyone was a sub par players at some point.

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I stopped running duty roulettes over a month ago. What now? Do I put "bad players only" in the description of my party finder savage groups? Obviously not. That would be stupid.

Not a single person should have to subject oneself to poor play by other players just to enjoy their chosen job. It is the job of the developers to make sure the core gameplay is enjoyable at all levels and facets of the game whether its causal or hardcore, and if they're unable to or unwilling to then they're in the wrong career.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

What I do have to do is find true meme parties ... people are going to eat stuff, people are going to die, and I will actually have to go into damage control. I finally get to be an actual healer.

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Ah, see, I don't care if I run "an actual healer," whatever that means.
I run a FFXIV Sage, I enjoy running an FFXIV Sage, and whether that means I'm running "an actual healer" is irrelevant. All that matters is that, for me, it's more fun than, say, running an FFXIV Dancer or FFXIV Warrior (both of which are OK, BTW, but I enjoy Sage more.).

If I read you right, and apologies if I haven't, you set your heart on running "an actual healer," whatever that means, and then subscribed to a game that does not offer that option. Now you want the game to change to suit you. I don't think you're entitled to that, and I don't think SE is going to do that, but feel free to keep asking. Damn shame if that's making you unhappy, though, because it's your choices that created the situation.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

That said, I personally have never said anything about opposing change, I simply stated that I'm enjoying healing as it is now. I'm not opposed to change per se. .

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I'm not sure why you're including this, my post wasn't about you? I would've quoted you.

It's not illegal to enjoy the current state of healers.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Ah, see, I don't care if I run "an actual healer," whatever that means.
I run a FFXIV Sage, I enjoy running an FFXIV Sage, and whether that means I'm running "an actual healer" is irrelevant. All that matters is that, for me, it's more fun than, say, running an FFXIV Dancer or FFXIV Warrior (both of which are OK, BTW, but I enjoy Sage more.).

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I also main SGE. I am dealing damage more than I am healing. And it still doesn’t change the fact that my damage rotation is boring.

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If I read you right, and apologies if I haven't, you set your heart on running "an actual healer," whatever that means, and then subscribed to a game that does not offer that option. Now you want the game to change to suit you. I don't think you're entitled to that, and I don't think SE is going to do that, but feel free to keep asking. Damn shame if that's making you unhappy, though, because it's your choices that created the situation.

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I wasn’t aware that I told the developers to make me more of a damage dealer than a healer. Or to give me one button to spam ad nauseam.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Not a single person should have to subject oneself to poor play by other players just to enjoy their chosen job.

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That's like insisting you be able to drive without encountering sub par drivers, or ride public transit without having to smell sweaty people and deal with drunks.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

It is the job of the developers to make sure the core gameplay is enjoyable at all levels and facets of the game whether its causal or hardcore, and if they're unable to or unwilling to then they're in the wrong career.

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First, you can't please all the people all the time.
Second, the job of the developers is to maintain the game's profitability. Everything else is just a means to that end.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Well we disagree on that. And some of the other replies indisputably are personal attacks.



Mine, for how I've been playing the game since 2015.
I don't know what the "hardcore" players need: I don't have their perspective, and I'll do them the courtesy of not pretending I do. It would be nice if they returned that favor.



If I was ever "scared" of people having low HP, it was years ago.
These days, I'm just amused when, for example, a tank dies because he ran out of my range or LoS'd me in a W2W trash pull. It's all part of the fun, and how people learn.

Besides, in the immortal words of Vince Lombardi, "the best defense is a good offense." Like dead DPS, dead mobs do no damage. So if the tank dies in a W2W pull but all the mobs die too, as happened in a recent pub run with me on SCH and two decent RPRs on DPS, that seems a fair trade. :)



Maybe you need to pug more. There's nothing monotonous about running with tanks and/or DPS who don't know their kit, don't know the mechanics, or both. I don't even find it frustrating, because I don't have high expectations for pugging, and certainly don't expect a fast clear.

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The person who initially replied to you began by acknowledging your opinion and used that as a jumping off point to contrast against the people who claim to not be dedicated healer players and then proceed to write off dedicated healer feedback. You're taking these points as very personal when it was not meant to be about you specifically, though you seem to have used that as an opportunity to assume my level of experience with pug groups. I don't really give a shit, but this seems like a very hypocritical stance you're taking.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

I don't know what the "hardcore" players need: I don't have their perspective, and I'll do them the courtesy of not pretending I do. It would be nice if they returned that favor.

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You quoted my post yet seemed to ignore the part where I said: "On the contrary, the majority desire to raise the skill floor to make healing actually easier for new or casual healers while expanding on the gameplay for experienced healers to have fun in all levels of content." If anyone understands what you and other casual healers need, it would actually be us, the dedicated healers who have a much more detailed understanding of how healing performs and have been making suggestions throughout the forums for years on how to actually make healing easier while allowing it to have depth and engagement. Sure, many of the suggestions made are not wholly perfect, but that's a consequence of being individual people--not a team who can discuss and bounce ideas around--as well as not having the means to test and prototype these ideas. But we by in large understand what the issues are and know what needs to be addressed even if we aren't always on the same page on how to address them.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

First, you can't please all the people all the time.

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you cant please all the people all the time but with 4 different jobs in a role they should at least try to cover their breadth of playstyles to cater to. they almost all feel the same with the exception of ast, which gets to play slightly different for 15 seconds every 2 minutes.


if you like current sage, sure, thats fine. but what do people that used to like their healer job back in stormblood do ? the playstyle of healers before shb does not exist anymore and its why healers have been so dissatisfied since.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I wasn’t aware that I told the developers to make me more of a damage dealer than a healer.

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SE didn't make you anything. They made a Sage class that, by your account, is more a damage dealer than a healer.
And you choose to run a Sage.

To reiterate what I said before: I enjoy running a Sage, regardless of how people categorize the class.
And I enjoy it more than I did WHM, which seems more like the "pure healer" you want to play.
Never expected that, BTW: I outleveled the MSQs so I picked up Sage just to "not waste the XP" from the MSQs.
Glad I did. :)

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

SE didn't make you anything. They made a Sage class that, by your account, is more a damage dealer than a healer.
And you choose to run a Sage.

To reiterate what I said before: I enjoy running a Sage, regardless of how people categorize the class.
And I enjoy it more than I did WHM, which seems more like the "pure healer" you want to play.
Never expected that, BTW: I outleveled the MSQs so I picked up Sage just to "not waste the XP" from the MSQs.
Glad I did. :)

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All the healers play like a damage dealer… this isn’t exclusive to SGE.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

I wrote:
There's nothing monotonous about running with tanks and/or DPS who don't know their kit, don't know the mechanics, or both. I don't even find it frustrating, because I don't have high expectations for pugging, and certainly don't expect a fast clear.



Go out of my way? You mean, by doing duty roulettes?

As in all of life, you can either find a way to enjoy what the game offers you, or not.
Totally up to you.

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Oh well, I guess nothing in the world should ever be fixed or improved. Your car broken down? Seems like you just don't know how to enjoy it as it is.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

you cant please all the people all the time but with 4 different jobs in a role they should at least try to cover their breadth of playstyles to cater to.

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If you want all four "healers" to be viable "healers" in all the content, that seems pretty difficult.

Let's say, hypothetically, WHM becomes a "pure healer" and SGE stays what someone here called a "gimped damage dealer."
Can you have content that that requires the (assumed) higher healing output of the WHM, that is still doable with the SGE?
And can you have content that require the DPS contribution of the SGE, but is still doable on the WHM?
Perhaps you can, but it seems a lot more difficult to do than what the situation we have now.

Of course, you could always take the easy path and dumb everything down so that the higher heals of the WHM and the DPS contribution of the SGE are never required, but I don't think anyone wants that.

And then there's the go-hear-kill-this quests in the MSQ: do we eliminate them, gimp them for pure healers, or what?
After all, while arguments here seem to center on group and endgame content, solo MSQ progression is still a major part of the game.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Oh well, I guess nothing in the world should ever be fixed or improved.

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Bad argument. In this case, whether healing is broken or needs fixing is a matter of opinion, not fact.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

That's like insisting you be able to drive without encountering sub par drivers, or ride public transit without having to smell sweaty people and deal with drunks.

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Amazing that you ignored the first sentence in my post about creating my own party finder groups, which allows myself to avoid those sweaty people and drunks in my party.

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First, you can't please all the people all the time.
Second, the job of the developers is to maintain the game's profitability. Everything else is just a means to that end.

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You're right, they "can't please all the people all the time." Right again that it is their job to maintain the profitability of the game.

Guess it'll be such a shock when players such as myself begin canceling our subscription, as I've already have done, due to being dissatisfied with the state of the game, and our feedback being constantly ignored while giving out of touch statements such as "go play ultimate".

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

If you want all four "healers" to be viable "healers" in all the content, that seems pretty difficult.

Let's say, hypothetically, WHM becomes a "pure healer" and SGE stays what someone here called a "gimped damage dealer."
Can you have content that that requires the (assumed) higher healing output of the WHM, that is still doable with the SGE?
And can you have content that require the DPS contribution of the SGE, but is still doable on the WHM?
Perhaps you can, but it seems a lot more difficult to do than what the situation we have now.

Of course, you could always take the easy path and dumb everything down so that the higher heals of the WHM and the DPS contribution of the SGE are never required, but I don't think anyone wants that.

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It is pretty close to the former—you should honestly look at just how little healing healers actually do in content compared to how much time they spend dealing damage. That’s what I mean by “gimped damage dealer”, by the way: I am spending more time dealing damage as opposed to actually performing my role because healing requirements are so low.

And it’s unfortunate that the developers will not increase the damage output even just a little bit. I’m not talking constant raidwides where you have no breathing room and opportunity to deal damage. I’m just talking about a slight increase in casual content, with the increase scaling the higher you go in terms of content (e.g., Extremes, Savages, Ultimate). As it stands now, current Savages and Extremes are being cleared without healers on content. And while they’ve always been solo healed while relevant, it’s rare for them to be straight-up done without healers while the content is relevant.

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And then there's the go-hear-kill-this quests in the MSQ: do we eliminate them, gimp them for pure healers, or what?
After all, while arguments here seem to center on group and endgame content, solo MSQ progression is still a major part of the game.

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No one is asking for that. You aren’t actually reading what healer mains want if you think that we are asking for that.

Keep in mind that MSQ is, more or less, one-and-done unless you do New Game+. Group and endgame content is constant.