Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Instead of a timed enrage they could either set a certain amount of deaths allowed before you need to restart or do it like potd floor 50 (I believe it was 50) where you get killed if you mess up a mechanic a certain amount of times.

---

THIS! It's soooo disheartening to see someone make a single mistake with mechanics one time, at the beginning of a fight, and already seeing the pace of the fight deteriorate to the point of "we're not gonna clear." I like when you can screw up a little bit in a fight and still clear. It helps confidence with the mechanics and your own game play.

Sadly I don't think the devs want to change Savage as they like where the difficulty is at either. I don't think the Savage community wants to have it changed either too. The new tier is gonna be "harder" than the last apparently. People are drawn to the content because it has fangs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Instead of a timed enrage they could either set a certain amount of deaths allowed before you need to restart or do it like potd floor 50 (I believe it was 50) where you get killed if you mess up a mechanic a certain amount of times.

---

THIS! It's soooo disheartening to see someone make a single mistake with mechanics one time, at the beginning of a fight, and already seeing the pace of the fight deteriorate to the point of "we're not gonna clear." I like when you can screw up a little bit in a fight and still clear. It helps confidence with the mechanics and your own game play.

Sadly I don't think the devs want to change Savage as they like where the difficulty is at either. I don't think the Savage community wants to have it changed either too. The new tier is gonna be "harder" than the last apparently. People are drawn to the content because it has fangs.

They really should add at least a self-only parser. Console players have inferior knowledge about how good they're doing, which can make it very shocking when they find out that they're actually doing horribly when someone who can parse informs them. And that situation will come up for pretty much anyone who is doing high-end content and isn't doing well.

Not having an official parser is only increasing the discrepancy between PC and console players.

I don't see why anyone's taking this as anything other than the status quo. The policy's the same as it's always been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

They really should add at least a self-only parser. Console players have inferior knowledge about how good they're doing, which can make it very shocking when they find out that they're actually doing horribly when someone who can parse informs them. And that situation will come up for pretty much anyone who is doing high-end content and isn't doing well.

Not having an official parser is only increasing the discrepancy between PC and console players.

---

But the truth of the matter is PC players took it upon themselves to use parsers and determine what threshold means you’re a good player or not. The game itself isn’t designed to factor that in. If you know mechanics, aren’t wiping and clearing the content, the game rewards you for that. No by analyzing parsing numbers. Also, most players truly don’t give AF.

I play for the story and gathering and crafting. I judge my abilities based on not dying, knowing mechanics and clearing whatever it is I’m doing. Just because someone isn’t doing the numbers an outside program seems decent means nothing in the end because FF14 doesn’t account for it. So parsing PC players can scream until they’re blue in the face.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

But the truth of the matter is PC players took it upon themselves to use parsers and determine what threshold means you’re a good player or not. The game itself isn’t designed to factor that in. If you know mechanics, aren’t wiping and clearing the content, the game rewards you for that. No by analyzing parsing numbers. Also, most players truly don’t give AF.

I play for the story and gathering and crafting. I judge my abilities based on not dying, knowing mechanics and clearing whatever it is I’m doing. Just because someone isn’t doing the numbers an outside program seems decent means nothing in the end because FF14 doesn’t account for it. So parsing PC players can scream until they’re blue in the face.

---

Thats what they do here on the this forum. They find it hard to understand that people play for the reasons you outlined. I know I do and I'm on PC and not the least interested in downloading a parser. The development team and director have made it very clear they don't want one for FFXIV and I'm happy they spelled it out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Thats what they do here on the this forum. They find it hard to understand that people play for the reasons you outlined.

---

The thing is that people talk about different stuff and are not always making clear what they mean.

For the story and dungeons, noone cares how much dps you do. Literally noone. And whoever does has some bigger issues so you want to stay away from these people anyways.
But most of the players that want a parser want it for Ex primals, savage and ultimate content. Content that has enrage timers and require the party to meet a minimum amount of skill. For primals you arguably don't need it bc the enrage is easy to meet and you can carry 'weaker' players, but obviously it's comfier to have everyone perform with a decent amount of skill/dps.
Especially in savage and ultimate you want to hold everyone in the group accountable for their performance and not carry some 'dead weight' through hard content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Especially in savage and ultimate you want to hold everyone in the group accountable for their performance and not carry some 'dead weight' through hard content.

---

This mentality is probably why DPS meters won't be added into the game. DPS meters should be implemented for your own self-improvement. Not as a tool to hold other people accountable.

If you're holding someone "accountable", that basically means you're calling them out for their low DPS. Yeah sure, on paper, people would be eager to learn from their mistakes and follow advice if someone points out their low parse. In reality, people get into fights about it most of the time. This is probably what Yoshi P wants to avoid.

You're not allowed to comment on another player's parse. That's why it won't be added. It's frustrating, because all I want is a personal DPS meter. I don't care about seeing other people's DPS, just mine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Especially in savage and ultimate you want to hold everyone in the group accountable for their performance and not carry some 'dead weight' through hard content.

---

There in lies the issue.

Sure, it's fine to see who is the "weaker link" in the party, but plenty of people use this knowledge to harass and attack other players for being sub-par. They don't offer help, they don't offer tips or tricks to raise their DPS. They just yell at how much they suck. That isn't holding you accountable for being bad. That's intentionally being violent for no justifiable reason.

Plenty of people play FFXIV to have fun. Not to get beaten into submission from people who take virtual numbers on a screen to a fanatical degree. While I would prefer to know who is the weaker member of the team, I personally am not using, nor will I ever use such programs because of one small reason.

What gives me the right to tell other people how to play? In what world has my input been taken as gospel? If you're using the program for self-help or constructive assistance, then awesome.

But if you use it to attack people? You're the bad guy. No ifs ands or buts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Senn

This mentality is probably why DPS meters won't be added into the game. DPS meters should be implemented for your own self-improvement. Not as a tool to hold other people accountable.

If you're holding someone "accountable", that basically means you're calling them out for their low DPS. Yeah sure, on paper, people would be eager to learn from their mistakes and follow advice if someone points out their low parse. In reality, people get into fights about it most of the time. This is probably what Yoshi P wants to avoid.

You're not allowed to comment on another player's parse. That's why it won't be added. It's frustrating, because all I want is a personal DPS meter. I don't care about seeing other people's DPS, just mine.

---

Savage and Ultimate raids have tight DPS checks that require everyone in the group to be playing their class at a decent level.

Joining a random PF group and wiping countless times to enrage, without being able to know whose fault it is, is really frustrating.
Maybe it's the whole group who is underperforming, or maybe it's just the Bard who is doing nothing but spamming Heavy Shot. But you need to be able to tell, in order to eventually replace the bad apples and clear the fight. Without a damage meter, at least in those two types of content, it's currently impossible to do so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wegente

...

---

Like I said, a DPS meter shouldn't be used as a tool to hold other players who aren't you accountable. Nor should it be used as a tool to see which party members you need to replace. Stuff like this causes drama. That's the reason why Yoshi P won't allow a DPS meter. I know it's frustrating having a member of your party under-performing, but that's something we have to deal with, like we have always been doing.

It should be used for self-improvement - something that should be kept only to yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

The thing is that people talk about different stuff and are not always making clear what they mean.

For the story and dungeons, noone cares how much dps you do. Literally noone. And whoever does has some bigger issues so you want to stay away from these people anyways.
But most of the players that want a parser want it for Ex primals, savage and ultimate content. Content that has enrage timers and require the party to meet a minimum amount of skill. For primals you arguably don't need it bc the enrage is easy to meet and you can carry 'weaker' players, but obviously it's comfier to have everyone perform with a decent amount of skill/dps.
Especially in savage and ultimate you want to hold everyone in the group accountable for their performance and not carry some 'dead weight' through hard content.

---

While I understand what your saying, even for EX, Savage and Ultimate the game still isn't designed to take into account an outside Damage Meter and analyzing numbers. It truly comes down to mechanics. Once gain, PC players use outside parcers for these fights and have created their own set of standards, but FINAL FANTASY XIV has not done so. The only harder fights I do are EX trials simply for the clears. I do them once, call it a day. I make sure to watch videos, follow the mechanics, I've never once been kicked out or called out or told to get bent because of DPS numbers even though I am sure my logs aren't optimal (I've hidden them moving forward since some people decided to look them up and say some pretty awful things to me).

At the end of the day, this is a game. While I understand there are people who play solely for the challenging content, the game itself wasn't designed around taking these outside programs into account. PC players are more than welcome to create their own set of standards, but they can't be upset with the SIGNIFICANT portion of players who are basically playing the game as the game has taught them to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

While I understand what your saying, even for EX, Savage and Ultimate the game still isn't designed to take into account an outside Damage Meter and analyzing numbers. It truly comes down to mechanics.

---

DPS checks are one kind of mechanic and playing your class properly and optimally is the way to overcome that mechanic.

If a set of adds spawn in an encounter and you have to defeat them before they blow up and wipe the group, you need to know your optimal AoE rotation in order to get rid of them quickly enough. If multiple members in the group are unable to do so, you will wipe over and over.
That's when damage meters come into play. You need to be able to tell which players are currently underperforming and let them know so that they can adjust their rotation accordingly, or replace them if you see they can't adjust. Otherwise, you will never clear the encounter with that group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Senn

Like I said, a DPS meter shouldn't be used as a tool to hold other players who aren't you accountable. Nor should it be used as a tool to see which party members you need to replace. Stuff like this causes drama. That's the reason why Yoshi P won't allow a DPS meter. I know it's frustrating having a member of your party under-performing, but that's something we have to deal with, like we have always been doing.

It should be used for self-improvement - something that should be kept only to yourself.

---

But what if someone is selfish and doesn't want to improve, but still signs up for ex and savage content, they will be holding the team back and maybe preventing clears, and not being able to see that and adjust makes the experience not fun for everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

But what if someone is selfish and doesn't want to improve, but still signs up for ex and savage content, they will be holding the team back and maybe preventing clears, and not being able to see that and adjust makes the experience not fun for everyone.

---

You can't call someone not wanting to analyze DPS numbers selfish, if that is not their focus for the game. Many just want to clear a fight once for the clear, and the game itself offers the opportunity to do that by learning your job, understanding the mechanics of the fight. It is not your place to analyze a player and give them unwanted advice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wegente

DPS checks are one kind of mechanic and playing your class properly and optimally is the way to overcome that mechanic.

If a set of adds spawn in an encounter and you have to defeat them before they blow up and wipe the group, you need to know your optimal AoE rotation in order to get rid of them quickly enough. If multiple members in the group are unable to do so, you will wipe over and over.
That's when damage meters come into play. You need to be able to tell which players are currently underperforming and let them know so that they can adjust their rotation accordingly, or replace them if you see they can't adjust. Otherwise, you will never clear the encounter with that group.

---

Then the game should have been designed that way, but it isn't. So you can't fault players who believe following the game and how it has been presented. I absolutely understand DPS check mechanics, and if you are passing them that is all that should matter. The issue is PC players who parse want things to go at their pace. If they look at someone's numbers and think they are moving things to slow, they want to call them out for it. Speed shouldn't be an issue if the content is being cleared and mechanics are being followed.

The fact of the matter is if you want to use an outside parcer and utilize it to check DPS and create the picture-perfect clear group, you need to form that group in discord and find people all willing to use these programs or people willing to be analyzed. You can't expect console players who don't use these tools and MOST don't care about them, to bend to your will.

You said you want a damage meter to check other players and be able to call them out and make them adjust. That is why these will never be implemented because at the end of the day, it is not your responsibility to tell people how they are performing. The game should be doing that for them. It truly is none of your business in the end.

**I would also like to mention, when I form a Savage learning party in PF, I make sure to dictate no one will be judged for their performance and it is open to all willing to learn mechanics. I highly allude to the fact outside apps are not welcome nor is your input. And guess what? We have a really good time without that stress of thinking someone is analyzing our every move. **

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

But what if someone is selfish and doesn't want to improve, but still signs up for ex and savage content, they will be holding the team back and maybe preventing clears, and not being able to see that and adjust makes the experience not fun for everyone.

---

I feel like people tend to be able to tell who's under-performing even without a DPS meter tbh. But if you can't tell, just join a different party? I've had a few bad runs with people, and while it's annoying, I just look for a different party to join and it works out fine.

I just want to make it clear I don't personally dislike parsers. It's just that Yoshi P doesn't want them for some of the reasons I've already stated. Why do you think SSS is implemented the way it is? It's in a random zone where you attack a dummy by yourself. It's such an isolated and round about way to track your DPS, and the reason for that is to prevent drama that would ensue if DPS meters were a thing.

The problem for me is SSS just isn't enough. It doesn't allow you to test your DPS under mechanic heavy situations.

If we switched our mentality from "I want to hold people accountable for their dps" or "I want to use a dps meter to find out who I need to replace in a party" to instead "I want to use a dps meter to improve myself", then maybe Yoshi P might reconsider at least giving us a personal DPS meter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

You said you want a damage meter to check other players and be able to call them out and make them adjust. That is why these will never be implemented, because at the end of the day, it is not your responsibility to tell people how they are performing. The game should be doing that for them. It truly is none of your business in the end.

---

It becomes my business when we wipe on a certain encounter over and over because of DPS checks or enrage timings.

I don't care if an expert roulette takes 40 minutes to complete, as long as mobs die and we don't wipe. But once I see the healer die mutiple times on the final boss because he can't execute the mechanics and make us wipe, I will leave the dungeon myself, because I don't want to waste my entire evening there. It's just not fun for me at that point.

Hard encounters like Savage and Ultimate raids require optimal play in order to be cleared.
That's why we should be able to replace people who can't execute mechanics or who don't know how to play their class properly in that kind of content. Because otherwise, one person is holding seven other people back and wasting their time. It doesn't seem right to me.

If I were to go and play soccer with a professional team, I would be an hindrance for them and they would have every right in the world to ask me to leave, because I don't belong there. I just don't get why the same logic can't be applied to this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wegente

It becomes my business when we wipe on a certain encounter over and over because of DPS checks or enrage timings.

I don't care if an expert roulette takes 40 minutes to complete, as long as mobs die and we don't wipe. But once I see the healer die mutiple times on the final boss because he can't execute the mechanics and make us wipe, I will leave the dungeon myself, because I don't want to waste my entire evening there. It's just not fun for me at that point.

Hard encounters like Savage and Ultimate raids require optimal play in order to be cleared.
That's why we should be able to replace people who can't execute mechanics or who don't know how to play their class properly in that kind of content. Because otherwise, one person is holding seven other people back and wasting their time. It doesn't seem right to me.

If I were to go and play soccer with a professional team, I would be an hindrance for them and they would have every right in the world to ask me to leave, because I don't belong there. I just don't get why the same logic can't be applied to this game.

---

Then you need to make your requirements known in PF or create a privately. I would have much more respect for someone stating as a disclaimer, I check DPS and if you are under-performing I rather not play with you off the bat, then later saying you are awful, get out. Then I am going to want to report them for utilizing outside applications to judge my performance.

At the end of the day, this isn't a professional team. It is a GAME. It is meant to be FUN. Even Savage and Ultimate content. And the game does NOT implement damage meters as a requirement. These are things YOU have utilized to create a threshold of good vs bad. We could argue this back and forth all day, but in the end, the game isn't designed to take these applications into account. Period. Done. Therefore, if you want picture-perfect runs and people performing at the level you've deemed necessary, take it to PF or discord and make your requirements crystal-freaking-clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

It truly comes down to mechanics.

---

I agree with the sentiment that dps is highly unimportant for everything below ex difficulty and to an extent for ex primals.
But I highly disagree on ultimate. I assume you have never stepped foot into any ultimate fight, which is perfectly fine and fair, but do believe me when I say: Executing the mechanics is. not. enough. You have to actually find ways to play mechanics AND maximize dps output. One could argue that you don't need parsers to figure that out, but you definetly need them to come up with max dps rotations in the first place, so indirectly you still need them.


I totally get people don't care about their dps or are not interested in optimizing after a certain point and are fine with being comfortable with their rotation. That's fair and cool and I think everyone should play the way the want to. This is a themepark MMO so by all means: don't let anyone tell you what to do with your time. But I find it sad that we cannot get to an agreement where at least a personal parser, or a group parser that needs agreement before being enabled for high difficulty content could be implemented to give those of us who WANT to optimize and play this certain way the chance to do so as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Senn

I feel like people tend to be able to tell who's under-performing even without a DPS meter tbh. But if you can't tell, just join a different party? I've had a few bad runs with people, and while it's annoying, I just look for a different party to join and it works out fine.

I just want to make it clear I don't personally dislike parsers. It's just that Yoshi P doesn't want them for some of the reasons I've already stated. Why do you think SSS is implemented the way it is? It's in a random zone where you attack a dummy by yourself. It's such an isolated and round about way to track your DPS, and the reason for that is to prevent drama that would ensue if DPS meters were a thing.

The problem for me is SSS just isn't enough. It doesn't allow you to test your DPS under mechanic heavy situations.

If we switched our mentality from "I want to hold people accountable for their dps" or "I want to use a dps meter to find out who I need to replace in a party" to instead "I want to use a dps meter to improve myself", then maybe Yoshi P might reconsider at least giving us a personal DPS meter.

---

Savage is not locked behind SSS, and that is issue ( people don't care about it - they think that doing mechanics for fight is enough - but it's not enough )

If You get two tanks pulling 2k DPS doing only 123, and whole party would play perfectly
( assuming it's minimum ilvl first week of savage ) = there is that barrier of Enrage

This is why everyone try to push their job to limit, using best potions and food, not to mention overmelds

Developers makes fights where we need to optimize our damage output to nearly perfection for kill ( Yoshi don't like optimization because it leads to toxicity - nor he believe that is needed to beat content - and I agree for normal [yet not for savage] )

Try to paint while you are blind, we need damage metter for savage - and only for that - only for static's - only when all people agree before joining to use it - ( that would be amazing ) no more stupid 3rd party programs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wegente

If I were to go and play soccer with a professional team, I would be an hindrance for them and they would have every right in the world to ask me to leave, because I don't belong there. I just don't get why the same logic can't be applied to this game.

---

That's not just for professional teams. Imagine joining a hobby succer club, but during the match you stand idle or just do the bare minimum. Ofc your team would be highly unpleased, especially when all of them gave their best to win.
Now that's a hobby and a game as well, but still the team tries to do their best. The same should be the way to go for FF, at least for savage and ultimate, imo.

This is a good thing, I mean we already see just how bad the MMO community has become. Even now, you don't need the best group setup to do the harder content, but players are crying because they don't get invited because they are not part of the best setup for said raid.


I'm happy for this stance, and support the devs for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

This is a good thing, I mean we already see just how bad the MMO community has become. Even now, you don't need the best group setup to do the harder content, but players are crying because they don't get invited because they are not part of the best setup for said raid.


I'm happy for this stance, and support the devs for it.

---

In SB you might have had an argument. I've yet to.see a single pug lock out any class, except maybe AST, but when AST is locked out it's because there's usually already a WHM in the party and the AST/WHM combo is terrible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

This is a good thing, I mean we already see just how bad the MMO community has become. Even now, you don't need the best group setup to do the harder content, but players are crying because they don't get invited because they are not part of the best setup for said raid.


I'm happy for this stance, and support the devs for it.

---

Turning Blind Eye ?

Saying is other thing, and doing is other

Same with Politics - they can say amazing stories -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

I agree with the sentiment that dps is highly unimportant for everything below ex difficulty and to an extent for ex primals.
But I highly disagree on ultimate. I assume you have never stepped foot into any ultimate fight, which is perfectly fine and fair, but do believe me when I say: Executing the mechanics is. not. enough. You have to actually find ways to play mechanics AND maximize dps output. One could argue that you don't need parsers to figure that out, but you definetly need them to come up with max dps rotations in the first place, so indirectly you still need them.


I totally get people don't care about their dps or are not interested in optimizing after a certain point and are fine with being comfortable with their rotation. That's fair and cool and I think everyone should play the way the want to. This is a themepark MMO so by all means: don't let anyone tell you what to do with your time. But I find it sad that we cannot get to an agreement where at least a personal parser, or a group parser that needs agreement before being enabled for high difficulty content could be implemented to give those of us who WANT to optimize and play this certain way the chance to do so as well.

---

If it were something EVERYONE had to agree to before implementing sure. And if you have someone not interested then they know this isn't the party for them. You are right, I haven't stepped foot into an Ultimate fight nor would I ever want to. I play this game to relieve stress not create it. I would be an absolute wreck just from the emotional torment I would endure in such a fight. As for EX and Savage. I have cleared these fights knowing mechanics and keeping up and watching the videos. Sure there were some wipes, but never solely because of me (or it could of been, who knows I've never been told).

The fact is though in the end, even if they added an official group parser, people would still abuse it. It would be nice if everyone would agree to it, but at the end of the day, some would use it to judge other people anyway. Ultimately, I would say the Savage and Ultimate player-base who takes things super seriously is rather small compared to the people who play strictly for fun, story, socialization and glams. I can understand why this group wants to take ownership of this harder endgame content. But in the end, Yoshi isn't going to lock it away behind parcer requirements. Therefore, it is up to players creating parties to be VERY clear about what they want.

Some people treat this game like a profession, they strive to improve, and become the best of the best. However, many, like myself, play for fun with other focus. Honestly, if this game didn't have the story and crafting/gathering/housing I wouldn't even bother. I do the dungeons, raids for the clear, story and could care less about the rest.

It should be noted that a parse is only a "thermometer" and doesn't exactly tell you the cause all the time. A raid leader or team need to look at the result and analyze the issue than just "well X is the lowest" *kick*

A healthy raid team looks at the data more objectively. Is there missing uptime. Is it just the DPS themselves? What can a team can do to contribute to the overall DPS. This is why healer DPS is looked at in a lot of times because it's contribution to a scripted fight. It isn't just about getting members that hit a certain percentile. Not to mention even that information can get misleading after a certain time frame because the Logs site doesn't account for gear levels which will affect the grade curve so to speak.

There's also at times a minimal amount that can put one from the top of said curve to the next one down ex. a difference of 200 dps would have put some classes in a lower tier/grade color from the next one.

Then there's the meta - the meta isn't bad per say it's basically there because of its benefits. However, despite the top players often saying that other compositions are fine - people will overfocus and exclude members just due to job. That is their prerogative if its their party.

There's fewer statics that keep members around for a while, shuffling happens often. I've been in one for many years where we didn't replace members during those years. In static terms, that's actually pretty impressive in NA. Because generally people will leave or break up in a short amount of time. There's other factors too not just numbers, but people forget the NA is pretty big region wise, where many people don't share the same time zone so planning around people in various time zones along with very different job schedules is another issue.


The raiding scene in FFXIV I'm going to admit has become rather boring. I have no interest in it unless it's going to be with members of the group I raided with. It was the group that made it for me and the memories we had. Sure gear was nice to win but overall it's been the same cycle of rewards and with how the gear is flatlining and same expectations of how it is released - boring, and with how the jobs perform , I also find it boring (Bard I guess I couldn't say that because for 3 patches its identity changed - and SMN I think moreso but I digress). It's the same song and dance - ie scripted fights. Introduce you to one dance step, now we're gonna add a new step. Now the dance teaches you 2 more steps till we add the full choreography. It's not to say that they aren't designed well - because they are. But you can only do so much with them. I also have various health issues with my vision and RSI that has messed up my nerves at times (which also affects my drawing and typing)

That's why I kinda went over to Monster Hunter. The randomness and less need for a DPS race is there. You can be the CC person that can help contribute more DPS to the group to kill the monster. Each experience feels a little more fresh than FFXIV. There are metas and ways to parse, but you still can find enjoyment without worrying about it as much and that's for all levels of monsters. You'll definitely find people or friends willing to help you on a hunt to get gear to fight a higher tier monster. It's a loop game so in a sense a lot more simple in its objectives but has levels of complexity in building sets to fight various monsters.

Like I said, I'm not against parsing, but sometimes points are left out to try to detail what a parser does and how its used. This causes a lot of conflict in understanding their use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I can understand why this group wants to take ownership of this harder endgame content.

---

We don't want to take ownership or lock content for anyone tho, we just want to make sure people know what is asked of them when trying to compete in this hard content.
Actually there is a whole discord server and community dedicated to SHARE their information to everyone who just clicks the button to join. The Balance discord and therefore most of the community is welcoming and actually encouraging newcomers and everyone who wants to learn and improve.
Also everyone can do this in their own pace, nothing is asked of you, but to be nice and polite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Some people treat this game like a profession, they strive to improve, and become the best of the best. However, many, like myself, play for fun with other focus. Honestly, if this game didn't have the story and crafting/gathering/housing I wouldn't even bother. I do the dungeons, raids for the clear, story and could care less about the rest.

---

As I said before: that's fair and I encourage it, but I also think it would be fair to give those people in the game that want to become the best the ingame utilities to do so.
Regarding the harrassment that is mentioned all the time: people calling you out in a rude manner should still be reported, basically nothing would change imo. Someone being rude because you are not doing so well? Report them, they should receive a (temp) ban.
If someone just neutrally speaks up about your performance you can either ignore them or take the advice, that's the decision to make and everyone can do as they please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Senn

Like I said, a DPS meter shouldn't be used as a tool to hold other players who aren't you accountable. Nor should it be used as a tool to see which party members you need to replace. Stuff like this causes drama. That's the reason why Yoshi P won't allow a DPS meter. I know it's frustrating having a member of your party under-performing, but that's something we have to deal with, like we have always been doing.

It should be used for self-improvement - something that should be kept only to yourself.

---

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree: when you join, say, a Savage farm party, you're signing up for an activity that others will have expectations of you in. If one joins content like Savage or Ultimate (dear Lord, especially Ultimate), I'm sorry but they should be held accountable for their duty in the group just like everybody else. Tanks need to mitigate and position the boss, healers need to maintain a good healing and damage throughput, and DPS need to be cycling their rotations to the best of their ability. That Square refuses to offer a first-party solution just means people will go on using the third-party solution that Square cannot control, nothing changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

You can't call someone not wanting to analyze DPS numbers selfish, if that is not their focus for the game. Many just want to clear a fight once for the clear, and the game itself offers the opportunity to do that by learning your job, understanding the mechanics of the fight. It is not your place to analyze a player and give them unwanted advice.

---

It is selfish when it is your dps causing people not to clear, ive seen people reach the 3rd or 4th fight of a raid tier who can do mechinics perfectly but are atrocious at dealing damage. End of the day dealing dps is a mechanic itself when it comes to harder content, and it is selfish not wanting to improve it for the betterment of your party. Having the ability to see who is underperforming would prevent entire groups having to dispand instead of just the one whos holding people back

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

We don't want to take ownership or lock content for anyone tho, we just want to make sure people know what is asked of them when trying to compete in this hard content.
Actually there is a whole discord server and community dedicated to SHARE their information to everyone who just clicks the button to join. The Balance discord and therefore most of the community is welcoming and actually encouraging newcomers and everyone who wants to learn and improve.
Also everyone can do this in their own pace, nothing is asked of you, but to be nice and polite.



As I said before: that's fair and I encourage it, but I also think it would be fair to give those people in the game that want to become the best the ingame utilities to do so.
Regarding the harrassment that is mentioned all the time: people calling you out in a rude manner should still be reported, basically nothing would change imo. Someone being rude because you are not doing so well? Report them, they should receive a (temp) ban.
If someone just neutrally speaks up about your performance you can either ignore them or take the advice, that's the decision to make and everyone can do as they please.

---

Then what is asked and expected of players needs to fundamentally change. Savage and Extreme should be completely redesigned and content restricted in a way to cater to these needs, because how they are designed now...it isn't requiring what people who are parsing are asking for.

I get it goes beyond mechanics and placement. There are DPS thresholds and various checks that need to be completed (honestly I've never had an issue with EX-trials so this must really be for Savage and Ultimate), but the game itself isn't saying these numbers are what is important. Raid teams, PC players have created these requirements themselves and what is deemed needed for smooth completion. Therefore, as I said, you can't expect things from players who are just playing the game the way it is presented.

We are being told we have the ilvl to enter Savage or Ultimate. We are given the option to say we have never cleared it before. These are all the checks and balances the game provides. That is it. So at the end of the day, players will need to be very clear and strict in the parties they create for it or have to understand casual players will be wanting to do this content and aren't going to take kindly to being criticized because people are viewing applications they have no access to.

It has become apparent that a lot of people only want a DPS meter as a tool to monitor other players and/or replace party members. Having your numbers out in the open like that can lead to players getting shamed and harassed as well - which has already happened. I've been in parties where players are calling out other player's parses. Those interactions are rarely pleasant.

I don't support that at all, and Yoshi P is probably of the same mindset. That's why it's unlikely a DPS meter will be added.

I'm all for a personal DPS meter that only shows your own DPS as long as it's used for the purpose of self-improvement. If your party keeps wiping, you need to communicate with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

You are not paying for my subscription. You have no authority to dictate how I want to play or if I need to improve or not. End of the day. The game is designed a certain way without the use of damage meters. You should take the initiative to state VERY CLEARLY your requirements for a Savage Party or Ultimate party so people can choose whether or not to stay.

Also, I don't pay yours, so you have every right to not want to play with me. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a party with you anyway since our game goals and motivations are obviously VERY different.

As for learning/clear parties, you have no right to be saying anything about anyone.

---

This is the textbook definition of a toxic casual mindset.

Say we have a clear party for e3s, the party is full of fairly average players except one player, lets call him Billy. Billy is a Samurai who deals less damage than your average healer, but does mechanics perfectly. In your party of average people with one billy, you will likely hit enrage, and this is where we have a dilema. Everyone in this party has the agreed upon mindset they are learning to try and clear the fight however billy is letting the side down. You say, "you dont pay his sub billy can play how he likes" but we've all agreed we want to clear this content, Billy wants to clear this content. In a scenario with no damage meters, the party is at an impass, sure everyone could theoretically try to be better to bypass Billy, however no one knows that Billy is the problem. I have seen this scenario before, and in this case the party will likely dispand cos if no one can work out where the loose end is, its probably better to just start fresh again, and a party where most players could have cleared it has to wait longer for their clear. In this scenario Billy is being selfish, he has decided he is going to do content that requires high dps, and not focus on his dps. Billy is fine to focus on what he likes, but when his focus is detrimenting others, there needs to be a clear way to identify it and act upon it. So if im the party lead for a clear or learning party, I do have the right to say something about someone, Billy isnt paying our sub, and he is being an active detriment to achieiving our goals however no one would know that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Senn

It has become apparent that a lot of people only want a DPS meter as a tool to monitor other players and/or replace party members. Having your numbers out in the open like that can lead to players getting shamed and harassed as well - which has already happened. I've been in parties where players are calling out other player's parses. Those interactions are rarely pleasant.

I don't support that at all, and Yoshi P is probably of the same mindset. That's why it's unlikely a DPS meter will be added.

I'm all for a personal DPS meter that only shows your own DPS as long as it's used for the purpose of self-improvement. If your party keeps wiping, you need to communicate with them.

---

This is why I have mine hidden, since they can be uploaded without your permission. It really is no one's business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

...

---

The game should be telling Billy that his DPS is lacking then lol

How about instead of a party DPS meter, we could give Billy a personal meter to show how well he's performing mid fight?
Let's say on one end of the meter, it's red, and on the other end, it's green. If Billy is in the red, then he'll know he's doing poorly. If he's in the green, he's doing good. If Billy's DPS start slowing down, the meter will fall into the red, and if his DPS picks back up, it'll go back into the green. This meter could be small so it doesn't clutter the UI. Doesn't SSS determine how much DPS you need based on the fight and the job of your character? The meter could function the same way. (I also want a dps meter that would show me my DPS numbers though.)

At least with this, Billy will be aware he's holding everyone back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Then what is asked and expected of players needs to fundamentally change. Savage and Extreme should be completely redesigned and content restricted in a way to cater to these needs, because how they are designed now...it isn't requiring what people who are parsing are asking for.

---

I think you are either generalizing too much or misunderstand what 'parsing players' are asking for.
Most of us are asking you to provide the dps needed to clear the encounter at hand (speaking for savage and ultimate), even tho the game does not provide these numbers they are still out there in the code. Hard coded enrage timers for bosses.
Do X amount of damage to the boss in y minutes.
We did not make up these requirements, the devs implemented them when designing the bosses period.

And this is why people are asking for an ingame tool to monitor if we can meet these requirements that are coded in the game. That would be perfectly fine as a starting point and maybe we will find out that it this will not lead to a purge within the playerbase. lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

This is the textbook definition of a toxic casual mindset.

words

---

I don't believe I've said anything that would define me as having a "casual toxic mindset." What I am saying is to be clear from the start. You are creating a learning/clear party in PF. Some joins who has the required gear and wants to play E1S for example. They play on PS4...have no access to a parcer, most likely don't even know what it is and you begin to tell them, "well based on my program you are the problem and need to improve or get out" AFTER the party has already gotten things going. That to me is a problem.

You don't have to like what I am saying, you can call me every nasty name under the sun. But I am speaking truth, this game did not design Savage or Ultimate content to be monitored by parcers nor does it require them for people to join with the way things are designed. You PC players have utilized them to create your own thresholds the game does not adhere to.

Which is why YOU need to be one, in the beginning, stating you will be analyzing these things or have everyone agree to certain terms. Also, by calling someone out for their low DPS it is automatically going to be assumed you are using an outside program and you will be reported. So if you are going to play with randoms, you need to understand you are opening yourself up to players with different tools, skillsets and desires. Of course they want to clear it, but they aren't utilizing tools you are to do so and most won't appreciate having their performance publically shamed.

This is why I say be clear upfront, state how you plan to run it and that is it. As I said, I put in my PF for Savage learning we won't be analyzing numbers, won't be using outside sources and are just looking to learn and have a stress-free time. In the end it is very pleasant knowing you don't have someone like you analyzing my every move looking for a weak link. Selfish goes both ways, sweetie.

Now you have a lovely and wonderful day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

I think you are either generalizing too much or misunderstand what 'parsing players' are asking for.
Most of us are asking you to provide the dps needed to clear the encounter at hand (speaking for savage and ultimate), even tho the game does not provide these numbers they are still out there in the code. Hard coded enrage timers for bosses.
Do X amount of damage to the boss in y minutes.
We did not make up these requirements, the devs implemented them when designing the bosses period.

---

And if you are passing these DPS checks, even if you aren't performing to the level someone else would like, end of story. If you are following mechanics and passing these thresholds in the game, you shouldn't be called out because it isn't going as fast as YOU would like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Then what is asked and expected of players needs to fundamentally change. Savage and Extreme should be completely redesigned and content restricted in a way to cater to these needs, because how they are designed now...it isn't requiring what people who are parsing are asking for.

---

I have to disagree a bit here. The role you signed up for is for the most part what you should be doing. DPS (Damage Per Second) or other places may refer to them as DD (Damage Dealer) by name says you need to be doing damage. If you're doing less damage than the other role assignments I do believe that's a problem. If you're just doing a bit less because not all jobs are created equal and other factors like gear is a thing, that's less of a problem for most circumstances.

The Lawns are there for you to see if you're close to the threshold of the required damage. While they ARE NOT required to get in - to say that there's nothing in FFXIV's design to show there isn't a meter for the requirement is a misnomer. It's ideal to pass it but you'll know something is majorly wrong if you can't get at least 80-90% on the Lawns/ Stone Sea Sky encounter consistently.

Yes there are other factors, but even guildhests and other parts of this game do enforce what is required of your role even if you're in a group.