SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

No. No it really doesn't. Let me explain why.

Okay, now let's take the typical FFXIV player, give them BLU and then let them loose in DF...

>join duty
>DRK tank, mmkay
>2x BLU because of course
>DRK has Grit up, but only pulling one group at a time
>soon see why
>both BLU are using their basic skills that you get with the job stone
>nothing else
>ask why they aren't using their more powerful skills
>"eh, finding them is too much hard work, I'm going to cap BLU doing roulettes and then go find the skills because it'll be easier"
>"b-b-but the game literally tells you where to get them"
>"eh, I cba with all that, I'm only going to get the massively OP ones"
>reach duty expiry because BLU.

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That's pretty weak dude.

Just lock duty finder until certain thresholds are reached on skills.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

That's pretty weak dude.

Just lock duty finder until certain thresholds are reached on skills.

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So your answer to BLU being locked out of content is to.... lock BLU out of content?

Well, I can't say I disagree, but, uh...

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

So your answer to BLU being locked out of content is to.... lock BLU out of content?

Well, I can't say I disagree, but, uh...

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Does pretending to be stupid win you many arguments?

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Does pretending to be stupid win you many arguments?

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You tell me.

You literally just said that the best way to ensure BLU was allowed into DF was to lock DF until they met requirements.

That's literally what you said.

Currently we have only LVL and iLVL restrictions. Now, to allow more freedom for BLU, you want to add a skill restriction?

I'm not sure how many more ways I can repeat what you've just said without it sounding like you just massively contradicted yourself, but you literally just said you think the answer to an already overly-restricted and barrier'd game, is more restrictions.

Literally.

That's not me being stupid.

That's YOU being stupid.

Wow, that's a lot of words to say "I'm not pretending."

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Wow, that's a lot of words to say "I'm not pretending."

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Point out to me where I'm an idiot - and I mean, point it out and explain why - and I will concede. I'm an adult. I can accept when I'm wrong, and I often do. But not here, because I'm not.

So point out where I goofed, and explain why.

I'll wait.

Until then, you just continue deflecting the fact you made a boo-boo, but just know that no matter how often you pretend you didn't argue my point for me and that I'm an idiot, doesn't make it so.

You appear to have somehow arrived at the conclusion that a skill check to use duty finder is just as, if not more, restrictive than just banning them from using duty finder altogether.

A skill restriction would solve the "bad Blue Mage being kicked" issue, but it wouldn't solve the balance issue.

Blue Mage is intended to be able to solo the very same dungeons and raids listed in Duty finder.
How do you reconcile things like triple potency of their attacks, or stuff like Lvl5 Death, which is intended to make soloing things like Primals possible, with being able to dutyfind those very same duties?

Premade and undersized parties are one thing, anything goes there, but joining a bunch of randoms with an instant win button or a steamrolling option?

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Originally Posted by Jandor

You appear to have somehow arrived at the conclusion that a skill check to use duty finder is just as, if not more, restrictive than just banning them from using duty finder altogether.

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Ah, okay, that's reasonable enough. I get what you mean now, and I can see where you're coming from, but that's kinda not the argument I was trying to put across - but thanks for being honest and straightforward, honestly.

Where I was coming from was a point of "people here seem to be either on the 'let BLU be a class like the rest' and 'BLU needs to be its own thing' side of the coin, and I'm on the latter because DF will suffer."

Almost every argument I've seen arguing for BLU in DF tend to scream "restriction" above all else, and I guess I took your comment to be both on the side of BLU and more restrictions which, as I said, would have been contradictory given my past experiences with other pro-BLUs.

In hindsight, I agree that required skills for dungeons would be a good idea, and would go someway to preventing bads from crapping up DF. But I guarantee people would STILL complain.

Personally speaking, I am absolutely all about the new BLU, because it's about time we had something that wasn't just "another caster". This is a whole new thing, like crafting and gathering is to combat. It could lead to a whole slew of new content, like Beastmaster, Puppermaster, and more besides. Hell, I'd even accept having BLU be able to join ANY AND EVERY duty once 100%'d.

But as it stands, given the very two different sides of the BLU coin, and given the playerbase, it is as it needs to be.

But again, thanks for the feedback, and appreciate it. Apologies also for being a bit of a dick. I see you're a fellow Cerberite, so if you see me running around Limsa pretending to be Willy Wonka and offering tours of my chocolate factory, consider your tour a free one. :3

I prefer to not think of it as two sides that are in opposition to each other, even if that is the harsh reality of the situation. I would prefer to see players working together on this.

If I had to state my stance, it's in opposition to Limited Jobs, but I say that because I believe just about everything there is to like about Limited Jobs, such as an emphasis on solo capability, a new solo instance, a unique way to acquire actions, and branching beyond the established cookie-cutter formula, all of that can coexist alongside a job that is balanced for end game. That is what I believe. I won't argue that balancing a job like that would be easy, but I don't regard it as an impossible task.

So that is my stance. For those that like Limited Jobs, I don't want the good things about it to be taken away. I just want those who wish to see Blue Mage as a balanced job that can access all content to get what they want too. It won't be an easy feat. It's not a goal that can be achieved in the near future, but it's what we should strive for.

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

So your answer to BLU being locked out of content is to.... lock BLU out of content?

Well, I can't say I disagree, but, uh...

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There is a huge difference from being locked behind something forever and being locked behind a very attainable key. I feel that should be self evident though, if you don't assume all the people who want blue to work in duty finder are crazed lunatics lol.

I am not a fan of the first (forever locked), I am quite okay with the second (self attainable keys to gates) - in fact I think jobs that have weird locks on the second could be interesting. As said before, and just my imo (not representing a whole group of people), I would like to see advanced jobs - or in other words jobs that function up to the par of other jobs but come with unique twists. Limited job has a permanent seal on a set of content, that I'm not okay with. A soft lock due to unique complexities that bring a different style of play, okay that's fine. And just to clarify before someone says "but you can get the keys with the current version SE made", there is also a difference from SE will allow Blue Mage to content each patch but /never/ end game and duty finder vs a Blue Mage can earn the ability to do end game and duty finder. (In the first the key to end game and duty finder, in SE's current known version, is always forever locked away. Second and wanted version it's not).

Also, my personal statements, just because I've seen some people say "all 48+ spells as an option balanced for duty finder" is that they select a set of skills from the growing list of Blue Mage abilities that are balanced but do not attempt or care to balance all of them. The set that is balanced is the set the blue must use in duty finder. To be honest most people I've seen asking for Blue Mage to be duty finder able haven't asked for the entire set of skills, I've seen it a few times but the majority is like "I'll be okay with a smaller set".

Since I've seen a lot of blue lumping, just to be clear on my desires lol:

• I want to see the Blue Mage book as it is.
• I want to see the circus content as it is, although I dont mind other jobs joining in (it's not important to me that it is Blue Mage exclusive).
• I /also/ want to see Blue Mage allowed into duty finder content.
• I am okay with the duty finder adjustment of Blue Mage to be done at a later date (I mean I believe it would be impossible to expect it by 4.5, quite literally).
• I would prefer it to be done by 5.X, but sometime is better than no time so if it has to be later but can happen then so be it.
• I don't really care to see all possible Blue Mage book spells balanced for duty finder, I prefer they make a tighter design that has gameplay elements that are both fun and easier to balance (which is why I suggest they highlight a subset in the book for duty finder).
• I am okay with restrictions to Blue Mage that means "you must learn the highlighted spell that you could use in duty finder before you can queue for that level of content".
• To be honest I think that should be true for all jobs lol. You shouldn't be joining duty finder when you're missing a bunch of core spells from your job XD. Some of those spells are actually not that important but a few are.

The tl;dr I'm willing to wait for SE to make Blue Mage duty finder possible, I want to see their current design out, I want to see more weird designs, I want to see both, and I believe they can do both. I also don't want to see /all/ future jobs be weird, I'm just excited for the idea of "advanced job" and not a fan at all of "limited job". (Advanced being weird in some core aspect, like learning skills, crafting your tool set (puppetmaster), taming and training (beastmaster) and so forth - but that'll also function in regular content).

I don't dislike the concept of Blue Mage in general in this game. I think it's cool that we're getting a class that has a different progression model when it comes to leveling. I don't mind being incentivized to go out into the overworld to grind/chain mobs for EXP and Blue Magic acquisition.

I don't dislike overworld content, if it's done in a fun and meaningful way. I personally don't think "hey we're gonna bar you from getting EXP in dungeons/you're gonna get less EXP in dungeons, go grind the overworld instead" is good overworld content though. As it is right now the overworld is very bland and I don't think Blue Mage is going to make it any more interesting. (I hope to be proven wrong though)

I don't dislike the idea of solo content in FF14 (and MMOs in general). I absolutely LOVE the idea of the Blue Carnival, and I honestly wish it wasn't limited to just Blue Mage and I would love to see this solo content idea expanded on in the future.


That said though, I absolutely hate the idea of limited jobs. It basically tells me that Square has given up on creating their own original incarnation of Blue Mage, one that would fit in the mold of FF14, and just decides to throw us a half-finished prototype.



Blue Mage in 14? Awesome, my favorite FF job in general!
Alternatively leveling method that's not just roulettes and dungeons over and over? Sign me up! The fact that we're incentivized to spend most time in the overworld is a little disappointing considering how weak FF14's overworld actually is compared to most other MMOs, but who knows. Maybe the novelty of finding Blue Magic out in the world will hold the entire thing together.
More content actually designed to be done solo? Hell yeah! I would love to see them expand on this in the future.
Jobs that are limited in the amount of content they can do for no reason other than "balance"? This concept can go die in a fire.

The problem that SE has is that, no matter what they do, they will upset SOMEONE.

Millions of customers. Some long-time fans. Some newcomers. Some from other series. You think they can please EVERYONE?

They need to make the class that fits FFXIV, not that fits a small percentage of the playerbase.

Damned if they do...

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

The problem that SE has is that, no matter what they do, they will upset SOMEONE.

Millions of customers. Some long-time fans. Some newcomers. Some from other series. You think they can please EVERYONE?

They need to make the class that fits FFXIV, not that fits a small percentage of the playerbase.

Damned if they do...

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Yep someone will be upset no matter what they do.

Millions? I don't think this game has more than 1mil subs. Meaning big risks that backfire can really hurt the game. The game can keep going on with a fraction of the subs but pretty sure XIV is still what is keeping SE running at this time.

A lot of us agree with you so then why does it seem you have been defending the limited job concept which targets a small percentage of players. That doesn't mean the content won't appeal to many but I don't believe a majority of the player base has been asking for jobs focused on solo play.

Damned if they do...have jobs designed for one type of player. Jobs should be for everyone then have different types of content that we as players can take our favorite job into. Sure the "omg limited jobs are the best idea thank you Yoshi!" crowd will be upset but the people that want more solo content would be happy, the people that want more open world content would be happy, and the people that have waited years (and would probably have to wait two more) would be happy to finally be able to main blue mage.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Yep someone will be upset no matter what they do.

Millions? I don't think this game has more than 1mil subs. Meaning big risks that backfire can really hurt the game. The game can keep going on with a fraction of the subs but pretty sure XIV is still what is keeping SE running at this time.

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A quick google search will show that XIV has over 10 million subscribers. You are also wrong that SE needs XIV to survive. Contrary to popular beliefs, SE is doing just fine, at least financially. It's a lot more debatable when it comes to image. Anyway...XIV is a cash cow for them, but they can live without XIV.

As for catering to what audience: I'd leave that to SE over any random commentator. Especially since, you know, they actually have the numbers and data of the player base and have more knowledge on what people want.

I feel bad for the people who fantasize of maining BLU, but they really had almost no chance of getting to that. Agree with their reasoning or not, they weren't going to add it as a typical battle job. I get the feeling that a lot of people would be happier with Yoshi-P vaguely mentioning that they're thinking about BLU at the end of every expansion as oppose to this version. Oh well...what can you do? I'm just waiting to see how this all works out.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Solo focused, not solo only. It still needs groups to get some of its stuff. You're getting things wrong right off the bat, and you repeatedly get that point wrong.
You also argue that because it's not what raiders would want it's a waste of resources that should've gone into making them happy. Not everything in an MMO is raiding, so no not all content needs to be for them.
The only "dangerous precedent" would be caving to this kind of tantrum.

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I'm with this guy. This class adds another group activity that isn't just raiding and I applaud it. Active guilds will have the advantage as it should be!

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And it can only group in pre-mades, thereby forcing people to rely on randoms in PF or hoping their friends are both online and able to help. Regardless, this will likely be treated akin to Wondrous Tales where you unsync everything—a scenario where BLU is utterly worthless since a level 80 WAR can pull every single mob and go AFK. No matter how you spin this, the emphasise is on solo, which isn't going to work well in a MMO setting.

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My guild will be forming many parties for this and we're all eagerly awaiting the enjoyment we'll get out of it. If your guild doesn't want to do this, then maybe it's time for a new one.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Does it justify spending what is likely a lot of time and resources on a job relegated to little more than a tag-a-log when "real" jobs do all the work? Think about it. You wouldn't be playing Blue Mage in a dungeon because that level 80 Warrior would be doing all the work. You're 100% useless.



Unfortunately, the Trust system is currently regulated to Shadowbringer content only. Regardless, this still makes Blue Mage a solo only job. So... I'd rather they put their resources to content that actually matters. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, but I fully expect Blue Mage to be Hildebrand-esque, where they update it every seven months with a couple quests and one or two new abilities. That just doesn't scream excitement to me.



I can currently solo every ARR Primal on any job. By level 80, this will be even easier. Therefore, Blue Mage isn't contributing to jack shit. They're standing there doing nothing. Go into Titan EX with a friend right now except you're a level 50 Dragoon and they're a level 70 Warrior. Now pretend you're a Blue Mage because it'll be about the same experience.

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So if you can solo everything, then why would you be upset that the blue mage would be standing there? You don't need his contribution. Do you really despise your FC members so much that you wouldn't help any of them out?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

A lot of us agree with you so then why does it seem you have been defending the limited job concept which targets a small percentage of players.

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Because I am.

I actually want BLU as it has been presented.

I want it to be solo content.

I want something different from the "here's a standard cookie cutter job, nerfed to high hell so it will fit with the balance of the rest of the jobs" that we've had.

I actually want this limited job.

That's why it looks like I'm defending it.

Because I am.

But I also know that no matter WHAT they do, they will never get 100% satisfaction from the playerbase.

Christ, if even they gave us BOTH versions, people would still cry "It should be either/or, not both" because that's just how people are.

The last page idea is "if BLU doesn't have enough abilities he cannot join a certain content".
Oooook.

And what if :
"BLU has enough abilities but he does not use them"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them but his equip is garbage"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them and his equip is ok but without materia"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them and his equip is ok and with the best materia but he is a Viera and we have a miqo'te in party"

It works with every job already ingame, try it!

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Originally Posted by Auryan

A quick google search will show that XIV has over 10 million subscribers. You are also wrong that SE needs XIV to survive. Contrary to popular beliefs, SE is doing just fine, at least financially. It's a lot more debatable when it comes to image. Anyway...XIV is a cash cow for them, but they can live without XIV.

As for catering to what audience: I'd leave that to SE over any random commentator. Especially since, you know, they actually have the numbers and data of the player base and have more knowledge on what people want.

I feel bad for the people who fantasize of maining BLU, but they really had almost no chance of getting to that. Agree with their reasoning or not, they weren't going to add it as a typical battle job. I get the feeling that a lot of people would be happier with Yoshi-P vaguely mentioning that they're thinking about BLU at the end of every expansion as oppose to this version. Oh well...what can you do? I'm just waiting to see how this all works out.

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You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

XIV did pull SE out of the red with the 2.0 launch. I don't know if it's overtaken XI as the most profitable FF game to date just yet but the game is a large source of their revenue that's probably only beaten by their mobile department.

I'm pretty sure I said that jobs shouldn't cater to any one player group. Doubled checked. Yep, I said jobs should be for everyone and then you take your favorite job into the content of your choice.

No chance of getting blu as a real combat job? Yoshi said they wouldn't be able to add rdm. They do a pretty good job overall with the game but they definitely miss with some things. Diadem, bow mage, 2.0 smn etc. Their minds can be changed and a lot on our side believes there can be great solo content WITHOUT limited jobs.

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Because I am.

I actually want BLU as it has been presented.

I want it to be solo content.

I want something different from the "here's a standard cookie cutter job, nerfed to high hell so it will fit with the balance of the rest of the jobs" that we've had.

I actually want this limited job.

That's why it looks like I'm defending it.

Because I am.

But I also know that no matter WHAT they do, they will never get 100% satisfaction from the playerbase.

Christ, if even they gave us BOTH versions, people would still cry "It should be either/or, not both" because that's just how people are.

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So you said that SE needs to make the class that fits FFXIV and not a small percentage of the playerbase but then say that's what you want. Ummm.....okay. I'm not denying there are people that want more solo content and I'm one of them but I seriously doubt more than half the playerbase is asking for a job to be designed with solo play as its focus.

Good thing a lot on our side are saying to leave the solo content alone but to give blu the ability to be used in the full game. You and me can then have what we both want. Unless you're one of the people that would still cry "It should be either/or, not both". I'm also tired of this "us vs them" and zero-sum view point.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

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Then the word you're looking for is "active" subscribers. You were dead wrong when you said FFXIV has a max of a million subscribers. When they do in fact have a lot more than that. But semantics aside...

And like I said earlier, that's too bad but you didn't have a realistic chance of doing that endgame content with BLU anyway. Without this limited job system they weren't even going to bother adding BLU at all. Popular job or not.

Meh, they're minds will only be changed when BLU actually premieres and how the base reacts to it. If it's hit, they plan on supporting it and adding new jobs under this new family of jobs. However, if it's universally disliked than I think it will follow the usual pattern of content like Diadem and Eureka. It will be improved upon and if it's still negative, overhaul it. I just don't see this realistically happening though. But I am repeatedly wrong, so who knows?

And I like to point out that your constant 'us vs them' mentality is very off-putting. "Our side", "your side", etc. At the very least it comes off as combative when we're just discussing a job introduction. Nothing actually serious.

If Squeenix comes up in the future with a limited tank, limited healer and another limited dps, they could make a 4 men version of the Masked Carnivale, or other forms of group content for limited jobs, expanding the solo aspect (as right now, it is solo play because well... there's only BLU). I think the possibility would be pretty awesome and give that something new many are lamenting its lacking in the usual formula. But if everyone cries for no limited jobs DELETE NOW, this possibility for new content won't ever see the tiniest of light. And that is quite sad imo

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Then the word you're looking for is "active" subscribers. You were dead wrong when you said FFXIV has a max of a million subscribers. When they do in fact have a lot more than that. But semantics aside...

And like I said earlier, that's too bad but you didn't have a realistic chance of doing that endgame content with BLU anyway. Without this limited job system they weren't even going to bother adding BLU at all. Popular job or not.

Meh, they're minds will only be changed when BLU actually premieres and how the base reacts to it. If it's hit, they plan on supporting it and adding new jobs under this new family of jobs. However, if it's universally disliked than I think it will follow the usual pattern of content like Diadem and Eureka. It will be improved upon and if it's still negative, overhaul it. I just don't see this realistically happening though. But I am repeatedly wrong, so who knows?

And I like to point out that your constant 'us vs them' mentality is very off-putting. "Our side", "your side", etc. At the very least it comes off as combative when we're just discussing a job introduction. Nothing actually serious.

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Sure I could have said active but also I never said it maxes out at one million. Since SE doesn't release the active subs for each quarter, people have tried to use the Lodestone to get close and usually an average of around 800k to slightly over a million. Believe it was close to two million with the 4.0 launch. The constant "every month subscriber" count isn't crazy high and Yoshi P has said he's fine with people taking breaks and coming back for new patches/expacs.

Didn't have a realistic chance of doing endgame as blu? After Yoshi P saying that rdm would not work in the game and then them adding the job we started to think blu could definitely follow. Then there was an interview that came out a week or two after the 4.0 launch and Yoshi P was asked about future jobs and talked about how he wants to make a unique 14 job but also said that blu was highly requested. It was pretty reasonable for players to believe that blu would function in the full game if it were to be added.

Go check my other posts. I've been saying for weeks that I think that what both groups want is possible and I wish we could have a unified message to SE stating that. There's toxicity in both camps but I have not seen many from the "pro limited jobs" side say they are fine with SE working on a way for blu to work in the full game as long as they still got to have the Carnival and solo ability of blu.

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Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

If Squeenix comes up in the future with a limited tank, limited healer and another limited dps, they could make a 4 men version of the Masked Carnivale, or other forms of group content for limited jobs, expanding the solo aspect (as right now, it is solo play because well... there's only BLU). I think the possibility would be pretty awesome and give that something new many are lamenting its lacking in the usual formula. But if everyone cries for no limited jobs DELETE NOW, this possibility for new content won't ever see the tiniest of light. And that is quite sad imo

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Change that to "content that you can do solo or low man" without the limited job concepts so that ALL combat jobs could participate and you would have a lot more people on board. There are people that are saying no to limited jobs period and there are others like myself saying no to THIS version. And it would be sad if there was no more solo content like the Carnival made after this experiment due to the backlash which is why many of us have said that we support the content but not at this cost. I want to see the two camps come together and say that we do want this type of content (or at least not against it) AND it not be at the cost of what the other side wants. Jobs that can work in the full game and there being solo side content like the Carnival if you choose to play that content.

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Originally Posted by SoleilAlphi

If Squeenix comes up in the future with a limited tank, limited healer and another limited dps, they could make a 4 men version of the Masked Carnivale, or other forms of group content for limited jobs, expanding the solo aspect (as right now, it is solo play because well... there's only BLU). I think the possibility would be pretty awesome and give that something new many are lamenting its lacking in the usual formula. But if everyone cries for no limited jobs DELETE NOW, this possibility for new content won't ever see the tiniest of light. And that is quite sad imo

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I don't actually think that is the point of limited job system. As I understand it (which is not factual or anything) is that jobs like BLU couldn't be pigeonholed as one of three roles. BLU could possibly be more than just a DPS, it could be a DPS/Support or DPS/Healer. This is mainly due to the very versatile abilities it gets from in-game monsters. It's not about adding really powerful jobs that do just one role. It's about the odd ducklings who are not as easily forced into one of three role in XIV.

To make BLU a DPS like say XIV's RDM, you would have it learn Might Guard and White Wind as its only non-DPS skills (maybe throw in Angel's Whiper for a raise since all jobs need a raise to be seen as good; smh) and every thing else just pure damage. And then make the remaining skills into a reasonable rotation, throw in a gimmick, viola! BLU is party ready. And I think... it's absolutely boring.

Limited job is as I see it SE's first attempt to broadening the very rigid trinity system. And I hope it does lead to that. And if BLU encourages them to improve the other jobs, than I'm happy to see it join the others (and only then). I'd hate it to be reduced to just a DPS. That weirdo is more complex than that.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

To make BLU a DPS like say XIV's RDM, you would have it learn Might Guard and White Wind as its only non-DPS skills (maybe throw in Angel's Whiper for a raise since all jobs need a raise to be seen as good; smh) and every thing else just pure damage. And then make the remaining skills into a reasonable rotation, throw in a gimmick, viola! BLU is party ready. And I think... it's absolutely boring.

Limited job is as I see it SE's first attempt to broadening the very rigid trinity system. And I hope it does lead to that. And if BLU encourages them to improve the other jobs, than I'm happy to see it join the others (and only then). I'd hate it to be reduced to just a DPS. That weirdo is more complex than that.

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You and others would think that would be boring while others and myself feel that what we are getting don't make up for the restrictions despite how potentially fun the content is.

A LOT of players would like to see the rigid trinity system pushed to the limits or just flat done away with. Some of us don't think limited jobs is the correct way of doing that.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...21#post4829321

That post and the second one I made in that thread was how I was hoping it would happen.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Didn't have a realistic chance of doing endgame as blu? After Yoshi P saying that rdm would not work in the game and then them adding the job we started to think blu could definitely follow. Then there was an interview that came out a week or two after the 4.0 launch and Yoshi P was asked about future jobs and talked about how he wants to make a unique 14 job but also said that blu was highly requested. It was pretty reasonable for players to believe that blu would function in the full game if it were to be added.

Go check my other posts. I've been saying for weeks that I think that what both groups want is possible and I wish we could have a unified message to SE stating that. There's toxicity in both camps but I have not seen many from the "pro limited jobs" side say they are fine with SE working on a way for blu to work in the full game as long as they still got to have the Carnival and solo ability of blu.


Change that to "content that you can do solo or low man" without the limited job concepts so that ALL combat jobs could participate and you would have a lot more people on board. There are people that are saying no to limited jobs period and there are others like myself saying no to THIS version. And it would be sad if there was no more solo content like the Carnival made after this experiment due to the backlash which is why many of us have said that we support the content but not at this cost. I want to see the two camps come together and say that we do want this type of content (or at least not against it) AND it not be at the cost of what the other side wants. Jobs that can work in the full game and there being solo side content like the Carnival if you choose to play that content.

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Marketing talk, plain and simple. BLU is a highly requested job. Who would purposely say, "You know what? The job a lot of people want is just never coming in, ever! Too bad for you, suckers! Pay me now." Aside from mustache twirling cartoon villains, no one. He wanted to be hopeful, but vague. In other interviews he also stated that he just didn't see how he could fit BLU into XIV's mold. He was honest too, seeing as BLU wasn't added two expansions later despite being popular. Until now, in a way that is unlike the other jobs, just like he said.

And I'm sure you've heard this before, but a solo and party mode for BLU is essentially two entirely different jobs. It's not just about curating "party friendly" monster spells, when it's actually the fact that these spells are still overpowered, are completely independent of each other and that BLU has no rotation or a gimmick (besides learning skills) at all. They would have to craft an entire list of "balanced" spells, weave them into a rotation and keep it constantly balanced. On top of that, they have to keep the actual BLU updated with new content. That's a lot of work for just one job. And then the subject changes to: why bother at all?

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

The last page idea is "if BLU doesn't have enough abilities he cannot join a certain content".
Oooook.

And what if :
"BLU has enough abilities but he does not use them"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them but his equip is garbage"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them and his equip is ok but without materia"
or "BLU has enough abilities and use them and his equip is ok and with the best materia but he is a Viera and we have a miqo'te in party"

It works with every job already ingame, try it!

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Sure there are always problems but the game attempts to soft help, like iLvl and level restrictions. Making sure the blue mage isn't coming without any skills is probably a good thing lol. (and imo should be done to other jobs too, finishing your relevant job quests).

This is more important because theoretically as a blue mage that didn't learn any skills you'd have /one/ ability, vs at least other jobs that have most all. I feel your example is akin to "why require ilvl, why require level, people are already bad!" which part of it is true but the result of complying with that statement would be a much worse duty finder experience...

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Originally Posted by jon041065

You and others would think that would be boring while others and myself feel that what we are getting don't make up for the restrictions despite how potentially fun the content is.

A LOT of players would like to see the rigid trinity system pushed to the limits or just flat done away with. Some of us don't think limited jobs is the correct way of doing that.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...21#post4829321

That post and the second one I made in that thread was how I was hoping it would happen.

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Finally something we agree on. The limited job system isn't the way to solve the battle system problem. I think so too. However, I think this new system is the first step on them doing away with it. Can't start overhauling an entire game without seeing how people react to changes, now can you? At the very least, even if this system doesn't lead to that, I can see myself having fun with it. All I generally ask for.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Marketing talk, plain and simple. BLU is a highly requested job. Who would purposely say, "You know what? The job a lot of people want is just never coming in, ever! Too bad for you, suckers! Pay me now." Aside from mustache twirling cartoon villains, no one. He wanted to be hopeful, but vague. In other interviews he also stated that he just didn't see how he could fit BLU into XIV's mold. He was honest too, seeing as BLU wasn't added two expansions later despite being popular. Until now, in a way that is unlike the other jobs, just like he said.

And I'm sure you've heard this before, but a solo and party mode for BLU is essentially two entirely different jobs. It's not just about curating "party friendly" monster spells, when it's actually the fact that these spells are still overpowered, are completely independent of each other and that BLU has no rotation or a gimmick (besides learning skills) at all. They would have to craft an entire list of "balanced" spells, weave them into a rotation and keep it constantly balanced. On top of that, they have to keep the actual BLU updated with new content. That's a lot of work for just one job. And then the subject changes to: why bother at all?

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He said the same with rdm. That he wasn't sure if they could make the "jack of all trades" traditional FF job fit within the trinity and they eventually did it.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Also, I've never said to just leave blu as it is and lift the restrictions. That's why I've been saying it will take probably to 6.0 for SE to make blu work in the full game. They already have most of Shadowbringers planned out (inlcuding the blu content) so IF they did listen to the backlash, adding what we are asking for would most likely have to be part of the following expansion.

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If they are adding more jobs with 6.0, then why can't the resources and time spent making one of those new jobs be put towards making blu available for the full game? Not everyone would want that just as not everyone would want Geomancer, or Beast Master, or Puppet Master. All we can do is request what future jobs we would like to see. A lot of us would like to see Blue Mage as a DoW/M even if there is "Blue Mage the limited job". Yoshi P said he kept being asked to add blue mage but the limited job version doesn't satisfy a lot of us that were asking for the job. He will still be getting requests for the job as a version that can be a main job.

Our side would agree that it is a lot of work to keep updating the Carnival constantly. Some are against the content entirely for that reason while myself and others want to see repurposed to be something with freelancer/onion knight/mimic. Like SE still do what they have announced but for 6.0 they change the limited job's name to Freelancer. Then add in some traits and abilities from all jobs to have a bigger scope of build making than just "enemy abilities". It could have a "Mimicry" ability to just straight up play as one of the other jobs. Or just call the limited job Mimic. It would still take a lot of time and resources but rather it be towards something that can be built up instead of separate content for every potential limited job. That just results in content across the board becoming more shallow as resources become more and more spread thin.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ue-Limited-Job

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Originally Posted by jon041065

He said the same with rdm. That he wasn't sure if they could make the "jack of all trades" traditional FF job fit within the trinity and they eventually did it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ue-Limited-Job

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Yeah, they sure nailed RDM alright. Sarcasm aside, I really don't like what they did with RDM. I think it's the most boring of the three casters and had to lose too much to get here. And if that is how they planned on handling BLU, please...no.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Yeah, they sure nailed RDM alright. Sarcasm aside, I really don't like what they did with RDM. I think it's the most boring of the three casters and had to lose too much to get here. And if that is how they planned on handling BLU, please...no.

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https://i.imgur.com/tC5uumk.png

IMO, RDM is a great job that is simplistic to pick up, with a good amount of nuance beneath the hood. Within FFXIV's world, where BLM is the elements of fire, thunder; and ice and WHM is the elements of water, earth, and air; RDM can use fire, thunder, earth, and air. Amidst all this, the casting of magic charges their sword to deal magical thrusts. It meets my fantasy of a spellblade, and is a jack of Black Magic, White Magic, and melee combat, but a master of none; it uses a combination of its three arts to grant it power on par with masters of any of the aforementioned elements.

That's the imagination I was hoping for with BLU; I don't care about Final Fantasy so much as I care about FFXIV. If I wanted FFV's BLU, I'd boot up FFV, as it were. If I wanted FFXI's BLU, I'd boot up FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Finally something we agree on. The limited job system isn't the way to solve the battle system problem. I think so too. However, I think this new system is the first step on them doing away with it. Can't start overhauling an entire game without seeing how people react to changes, now can you?

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The thing is, SE hasn't given any indication that Blue Mage is intended to be their first step towards expansive changes to their existing battle system. It's been implied that Blue Mage and other Limited Jobs are meant to exist as a completely separate system with no plans for the two systems to ever interact with each other at the highest level.

If we want to see an expansive change to the existing system, we as fans will have to advocate for that. We should view Blue Mage as an opportunity for change; because if we can get SE to integrate Blue Mage into the existing system, if they don't want all their hard work to be for naught, it's going to force them to expand the limitations of what jobs can do. Blue Mage should be the job that raises the bar.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

The thing is, SE hasn't given any indication that Blue Mage is intended to be their first step towards expansive changes to their existing battle system. It's been implied that Blue Mage and other Limited Jobs are meant to exist as a completely separate system with no plans for the two systems to ever interact with each other at the highest level.

If we want to see an expansive change to the existing system, we as fans will have to advocate for that. We should view Blue Mage as an opportunity for change; because if we can get SE to integrate Blue Mage into the existing system, if they don't want all their hard work to be for naught, it's going to force them to expand the limitations of what jobs can do. Blue Mage should be the job that raises the bar.

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I thought rdm would have been that job then thought it would be blu. For all the people saying we hyped ourselves up and had too high of expectations, I'll say you're wrong at least for myself. I definitely had myself believing that there was no way they could just remove some abilities and add in a few more and keep on going. That we would see some sorta of talent system or some other system to push the limits of the trinity system. Instead, they went with a job as its own type of content in a separate mini game.

Your last paragraph perfectly captured how I see BLU and the limited job system: an attempt to alter the all too rigid battle system. And if BLU and the rest can accomplish that, I would be happy to see them join the rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Your last paragraph perfectly captured how I see BLU and the limited job system: an attempt to alter the all too rigid battle system. And if BLU and the rest can accomplish that, I would be happy to see them join the rest.

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I'm pretty sure that you did not understand what Blueye meant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

The thing is, SE hasn't given any indication that Blue Mage is intended to be their first step towards expansive changes to their existing battle system. It's been implied that Blue Mage and other Limited Jobs are meant to exist as a completely separate system with no plans for the two systems to ever interact with each other at the highest level.

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This is definitely the impression I have after the live letter and what our side is saying is wrong with limited jobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

If we want to see an expansive change to the existing system, we as fans will have to advocate for that. We should view Blue Mage as an opportunity for change; because if we can get SE to integrate Blue Mage into the existing system, if they don't want all their hard work to be for naught, it's going to force them to expand the limitations of what jobs can do. Blue Mage should be the job that raises the bar.

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I could be reading this wrong but sounds like Blueye is saying the same kind of thing that I said to you earlier. That we believe SE can make blue mage work in the full game and still have the side content. That they would have to put the time and resources it would take for a 6.0 job towards the task. That it would probably take a multi-role or talent system. Making blue mage for the full game would be the thing that pushes them to do what you and I both agreed we want to see happen.

If SE sticks with the limited job concept, I would bet that they just put future limited jobs in their own boxes while keeping the same rigid trinity for the combat jobs.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

I could be reading this wrong but sounds like Blueye is saying the same kind of thing that I said to you earlier. That we believe SE can make blue mage work in the full game and still have the side content. That they would have to put the time and resources it would take for a 6.0 job towards the task. That it would probably take a multi-role or talent system. Making blue mage for the full game would be the thing that pushes them to do what you and I both agreed we want to see happen.

If SE sticks with the limited job concept, I would bet that they just put future limited jobs in their own boxes while keeping the same rigid trinity for the combat jobs.

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I think we're coming to the same conclusion then. Just from different angles.
What I got from Blueyes' statement is that the foundation for BLU could be used in order to influence the other jobs. Instead of the proposed idea of "balancing" BLU they can put effort into the other jobs to bring them to BLU's level. Where we differ is how we see the limited job system. You see it see as cordoning off BLU and the others from the main game, I see them as an alternative to "balancing" weird jobs into the rigid battle system; a lesser option that doesn't address why they have to be limited in the first place. I'd rather take the lesser option than see jobs like BLU turn into another SMN 2.0 or DRK.

And it doesn't have to be that way if like Blueyes suggests by using this system as a stepping stone on revamping the battle/job systems. And I would be happy if they accomplish this and if they do, I would be happy to see BLU and the rest integrate with the battle jobs. Of course this works on the assumption that overhauling the battle system is in fact what they want to do.

Or am I misrepresenting Blueyes, if so I apologize. Either way, we aren't too different in views. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see changes in the battle system.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

You do know that when SE puts out that 10mil figure number that they are counting ALL accounts that have ever paid for even 1 month of game time right?

XIV did pull SE out of the red with the 2.0 launch. I don't know if it's overtaken XI as the most profitable FF game to date just yet but the game is a large source of their revenue that's probably only beaten by their mobile department.

I'm pretty sure I said that jobs shouldn't cater to any one player group. Doubled checked. Yep, I said jobs should be for everyone and then you take your favorite job into the content of your choice.

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So what you're saying is that they shouldn't tailor jobs that cater to any player group you're not a part of. There's no way they can please everyone, but as long as you're happy, we're good, right? Some of us want BLU to be as it is. I am one of those people.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

I think we're coming to the same conclusion then. Just from different angles.
What I got from Blueyes' statement is that the foundation for BLU could be used in order to influence the other jobs. Instead of the proposed idea of "balancing" BLU they can put effort into the other jobs to bring them to BLU's level. Where we differ is how we see the limited job system. You see it see as cordoning off BLU and the others from the main game, I see them as an alternative to "balancing" weird jobs into the rigid battle system; a lesser option that doesn't address why they have to be limited in the first place. I'd rather take the lesser option than see jobs like BLU turn into another SMN 2.0 or DRK.

And it doesn't have to be that way if like Blueyes suggests by using this system as a stepping stone on revamping the battle/job systems. And I would be happy if they accomplish this and if they do, I would be happy to see BLU and the rest integrate with the battle jobs. Of course this works on the assumption that overhauling the battle system is in fact what they want to do.

Or am I misrepresenting Blueyes, if so I apologize. Either way, we aren't too different in views. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see changes in the battle system.

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Oh I definitely believe that most players want the same things and the division is over how to reach that goal. Myself and others see the limited jobs as a separate box in the corner because that's how they made it seem during the live letter. That it wouldn't be able to participate in current content because that would be OP and it wouldn't be fun to make it not OP. Then they went onto how other NEW jobs could be part of the limited system. They didn't state that if this goes well that they will go back and work on the current jobs.

Yeah we want to see the same end result but don't agree on the method to get there because not everyone is on the same page with limited jobs. It's possible the info given to us during the live letter was wrong or incomplete. If that's the case, then myself and the others will have to re-evaluate how we feel. However, if what was presented is the direction of the first limited job for the first year in that it's in a box by itself away from the full game, I believe that yourself and others with the "wait and see" mindset will join us in saying "SE we like that you are trying to add new content and shake things up but this isn't the right way. Please try again after consolidating our feedback".

This is what myself and others have been pushing for weeks now. Hopefully we will get there because it will be sad if SE decides to just not try to do content like this again period.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

It would be nice if the majority of players that are making up the two sides could come together and have a unified message of "SE please keep making open world and solo content but not through limited jobs". Our side feels the cost for how SE is doing that content is too high. It seems that the other side is worried about giving up ground now that they are getting the type of content they have been asking for and are worried they could lose it. Then you have the toxic people on both sides. Those that don't want any more solo content in 14 than there already is and the people that have a "I got mine so now I don't care" attitude. The compromise that myself and others have said we would like to see is both sides accepting that it will take SE longer to put out content for both groups but we all get the content that we are interested in. Sadly, the toxic people still keep doing what they have been doing. Either that there is no point in this content or things along the lines of "why should we have to wait? you just have to accept this content". I've thought about making a new thread with the message of what I have in quotes at the start of this paragraph but I would like someone from the other side to "make" it with me in that I know they are ready to give their support after I make the thread. To have at least one person from each side to take that first step of actually being together after this debate.

Forgot to add that I am someone that would like to see some more solo content. If you check my older posts you will see ideas I've had for solo BST content and how I would be fine with something like freelancer or mimic as a limited job and how the scope for potential gameplay could be sorta of "diablo lite".

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

https://i.imgur.com/tC5uumk.png

IMO, RDM is a great job that is simplistic to pick up, with a good amount of nuance beneath the hood. Within FFXIV's world, where BLM is the elements of fire, thunder; and ice and WHM is the elements of water, earth, and air; RDM can use fire, thunder, earth, and air. Amidst all this, the casting of magic charges their sword to deal magical thrusts. It meets my fantasy of a spellblade, and is a jack of Black Magic, White Magic, and melee combat, but a master of none; it uses a combination of its three arts to grant it power on par with masters of any of the aforementioned elements.

That's the imagination I was hoping for with BLU; I don't care about Final Fantasy so much as I care about FFXIV. If I wanted FFV's BLU, I'd boot up FFV, as it were. If I wanted FFXI's BLU, I'd boot up FFXI.

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I see where you're coming from. It all comes down on how we see the job. My idea of RDM was always a supporter job. RDM were decent healers, damage dealers and buffers. They were decent at everything, but didn't excel at anything. It's nice how they managed to work black and white magic into XIV RDM, but it all relates to damage dealing. The only supporting abilities it got was one group buff, a mediocre heal and raise. It's great that people like it, but it wasn't my fantasy job come to reality like how you see it. If it was my choice, I'd rather it be XIV's first support role job, but I admit, that would've needed much more accommodation to accomplish.

I was pretty much certain that they were going to do same thing to BLU as they did RDM. All of those monster skills would be drastically toned down (in potency, range and effects) and geared almost exclusively to just pure damage. BLU to me was always a weirdo. I always saw it as being able to do it all: heal, tank, dps, support, you name it. But that fantasy just wouldn't work in XIV. They ended up showing something closer to that fantasy than my first impression. And I appreciate that more than bringing a mage that looks like BLU but has few similarities.