NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

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Originally Posted by Dijana

Edit: Also, because you keep insisting you dont play a class past 30. Yes. You do.

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How many Gladiators have you seen in Coil? Not Paladins, but people actually playing Gladiator the Class. Have you seen a single person playing the Class at 50, or are they all on the Job?

Ninja will take Rouges base, and turn it into Ninja. At that point it stops being Rouge. Since Classes are not used at 50, Rouge will be gone at 50. Any delusion of Rouge = Thief will thus be gone at 50. You're either a Ninja or you're not invited to any serious content. "Thief", thusly, would not be used in endgame, unless they make Thief a Job that comes off a Class.

The solution to there being no Thief in the game is not to sit on Ninja and pretend you're on Thief. If that was a solution, they wouldn't add Ninja at all; "Go get Fuma and pretend Monk is Ninja", please ignore the fact that that's exactly what I've been doing for the past few months, though.

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Originally Posted by Dijana

Edit: Also, because you keep insisting you dont play a class past 30. Yes. You do.

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No intention to sound offensive or untactful, but I think you're unawaringly doing the same logic mistake as Gilraen in the previous page.
Yes, what you said is true but try to see what Nalien said from a different perspective.
What is the purpose of Class in the current game, aside from the lore things? (which I loved, personally).

The things you and Gilraen said are true, but they do not justify the existance of classes (remnants of Tanaka's FFXIV). Game would be exactely the same if classes didn't exist and all of what you mentioned was directly imbued into jobs.
Aside from lore implications of course.

Classes remained initially because Yoshi-P had a purpose for them, he wanted this "duality" to exist with different roles. Things turned out differently for one reason or another and AT THE MOMENT, they serve no purpose at all. Everything that is currently done with Classes could be done without (yes, my beloved lore too) and it would probably work better, feel more streamlined and less clunky.

i hope soldiery/allagan sets from mnk can be used by ninjas. But maybe is brd and nin. i want to know!!!

Edit:
I think nin will share with mnk. Nin could be str and if SE adds thief to rogue then thf could be dex(brd) D;

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Originally Posted by Nalien

How often do you see Archers in instances after 30? What about Gladiators, or Lancers? PvP is literally the only place Classes can shine, and even then that's just Gladiator and Marauder.

Classes may as well be their Jobs once you hit 30, Rouge and Ninja should be no different. Rouge could be a proxy for Thief, but if you're playing Ninja, you certainly aren't playing Thief. Last I checked Thief didn't do crazy hand signs and spit ice, at least.

So, Thief either is Rouge, and it's gone after 30, or Thief is a Job at some point. For it not to happen at all just contradicts the implementation of Jobs at all.

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I have been trying to explain this thank you.

I liked how you mentioned Yoshi P saying he would bring back classic Final Fantasy Jobs but is now go back on his word to the community if he reverts Thief only to a class named Rogue or doesn't add Thief at all.

I wanted to add that I do not see any harm in including a Thief Job is this game that stems from Rogue. A name change of Rogue class to Thief class will also be problematic and not what people who are interested in playing a Thief.

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Originally Posted by Dijana

Yes, it would harm and affect others play styles, because hey look, even more dps jobs we dont need. I said having a different role- tank or healer, would be far more beneficial for everyone. DPS queues are already insane, and there are never enough tanks or healers. ...................................................

I can understand having a job you really love and want added to the game. Maybe Im biased because I was never that big a fan of thief
Edit: Also, because you keep insisting you dont play a class past 30. Yes. You do.

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Ninja addition to this game will not be the last DPS job to be added. People who want to play tank will still main a tank job. The people who already play a DPS job will still main a DPS job and that is what Ninja and any other additional DPS job in the future will be for. You can not make people who do not want to main a Tank or Healer play them by adding additional tank and healing options. In all MMO's there are more DPS players than healers and tanks.

I can't understand your bias or against Thief Job being in this game. There are possible future classes and jobs that I don't want to play but I don't mind it being released.

One thing not sure if anyone brought this up yet but notice how ninja holds the weapon different from its so call class? They even move/run different!! Some ppl say that the weapon ninja is holding is it's relic is reason why it's diffrent from ninja but I don't think this is the case, I'm thinking SE is going to drop a bomb today on a second job branching off this class.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

I have been trying to explain this very concept, but at this point the people who are replying to me refused to try and understand this.

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I'm really surprised at the "hate" Thief is getting here, I can understand people having concerns about it being added, but quite a few people just seem to out right reject the very concept of it getting added.

I know I keep coming back to Bard, but it's the perfect example. Plenty of people suggest Ranger should come off Archer, when they do people don't claim that "Bard is just Ranger with Songs", or that Archer is already Ranger. They have concerns about how it would be added, usually leading to people suggesting Bard be changed to be more Bard, but they don't out right reject the idea. Rouge, Ninja and Thief is almost exactly the same, with Ninja being close to Bard from what I've read;

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Ninjas will incorporate the abilities of rogues and will also have Ninjutsu and hand gestures. The gestures will be combined in different ways and will result in different Ninjutsu abilities.

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That makes it sound like Ninja will have a deceptively large number of Job abilities, just like Summoner and Scholar. Rather than them being tied to pets though, they'll be through combinations. That's the sort of thing they should have done with Bard to give it more than three bloody songs (how am I still mad about that?). It allows the Job to be very distinctive from the Class.

That alone can make Ninja feel very distinct from Rouge, and thus Thief which would just be the natural progression of Rouge, just like Ranger would be the natural progression of Archer.

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Originally Posted by Umisame

I think nin will share with mnk. Nin could be str and if SE adds thief to rogue then thf could be dex(brd) D;

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I'd hope Ninja has something similar to Clerics Stance; converts STR into INT. The Rouge/Melee moves use STR, when you want to throw down some Ninjutsu, you switch your STR to INT.

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Originally Posted by ereskigal

One thing not sure if anyone brought this up yet but notice how ninja holds the weapon different from its so call class?

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Huh? I noticed the pretty different animations, but holding them differently?
Ninja holds Katana the "traditional" FF way. That is with the blade coming out from the lower part of the hand (not from, the side where the thumb is)
Daggers are traditionally held the opposite way, with the blade coming out from the side with the Thumb.
Rogue instead holds daggers just like you'd hold Katanas, just like Thancred does in the Leviathan cut-scenes.
That's the same exact way of holding Katanas though.
Where do you see the difference?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

They have concerns about how it would be added, usually leading to people suggesting Bard be changed to be more Bard

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I still dream about that happening... but realistically it will never happen unless they modify their trinity model to be less strict.
If they were to enlarge the current very strict trinity system from Tank, Healer, DD to Tank, Healer, DD, Hybrid... then yes, it might happen.

I doubt it will because it makes things much harder for them to balance and handle, but personally I love such a model way more than the oversimplified one they're currently using, so yeah, let's keep our fingers crossed.

Oh, cool! FINALLY some class-jobs using two weapons... When I started playing the symbol of the gladiators (two swords) called my attention too much, then for discovering it was just one sword...

So I'm happy to see it coming, a shame it is for 2.4 ... Pfft... When will we see them? December?... :/

About the super thief fight... AREN'T ROGUE AND THIEF THE DAMN *** THING?....

With all respect, where's the difference?...It it is that you want to have one ninja job and one agile two swords-weapons wielder job, then say it like that, but in my opinion thief and rogue are...The same?

(I hope they'll add a tank and healer too... Because else the world will be even more filled of DPS... who wouldn't like to use or try the new classes?!) The lack of healers and tanks will be even more pronnunciated in 2.4

Maybe they are for 2.4 because they need time yet for preparing the other secret classes-jobs...

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

With all respect, where's the difference?...

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Thief, as a Job, would be used at endgame (or just post-30). Rouge, as a Class, would not.

Is this really a difficult concept to understand? People want Thief as a Job, because it's one of the more iconic Jobs in the franchise, which is why Yoshida even implemented Jobs in the first place. Literally his first order of business after taking over XIV was to implement iconic Final Fantasy Jobs...

Honestly, the reasoning of "What's the difference?" makes very little sense to me. What's the difference between Gladiator and Paladin? Literally the only iconic thing Paladin adds is Cover, and I very rarely see people using that. Lancer and Dragoon? All they added was Jumps. Why exactly is it so unreasonable to expect Rouge => Thief as a second Job when it would really be no different than what every other Job is?

People keep making this argument that Rouge might as well be Thief, because Jobs only add 5 abilities. Isn't that just an argument to add Thief though? Jobs only add AF/Relics and 5 abilities, so why not make Rouge => Thief? Most Job abilities aren't strictly related to the FF canon, for the most part they're just generic MMO moves. I really do not understand the rejection of a Thief Job possibility...

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

With all respect, where's the difference?

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It would be like saying "hey you don't need RDM, want a debuffer? You got Arcanist! What's the difference between Arcanist and RDM?!" I'm stretching it of course, it's just an example.

The main differences would be that:
1) Nobody would use Rogue past level 30 (if things stay as they are now)
2) Rogue would have nothing "unique" compared to NIN (aside from larger customizability from cross-actions)
3) Rogue would have no AF (iconic aspect of FF games)
4) Rogue would have no Relic
5) Rogue would be called... Rogue, and not Thief. (which is one of the many reasons why Yoshi-P introduced Jobs instead of just tweaking the already existing Classes back in 1.0)

So basically, while it's not my case, if you were a player willing to play the Thief job, you'd be left with no options but Ninja, because clearly you don't expect people to play Rogue at level 50 and do content as Rogue?

Thief speculation is pretty pointless until we know how the Rogue plays, but it's definitely not impossible.
A thief with steal and mug being used to fuel mix (which could open up a pet style hotbar with different potion options on it) could be both useful and fun.

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Originally Posted by Moheeheeko

"someone disagrees with me, clearly they are trolling"

I cant decide who is worse right now, the people crying because their desired class wasn't announced just this second, or those who are crying because theirs was but not to the minute detail they wanted.

EDIT Because 'lol daily post limit'

Lets look at this realistically here, there is 0 reason to think that rogue wont get Thief skills like treasure hunter, steal, mug, trick and sneak attack. If anyone should be pissed here, its those who wanted ninja, because really its just a thief with 5 ninja skills of questionable usefulness (looking at you blm and brd)

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He's saying you're trolling because it seems like you are literally reading half of what people post, moving goal posts in your arguments and cherry picking what people are saying. It seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, because no one who can play an MMO can have reading comprehension THAT poor.

Just heard from someone on my server that NIN would be sharing gear from DRG/MNK is this true? I'm having a hard time believing this was announced already, has it? if so where can I read/watch up on it. Thanks if anyone knows.

But then it's that, the difference is only that one would be class and another one job... (And classes right now are useless)

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Just heard from someone on my server that NIN would be sharing gear from DRG/MNK is this true? I'm having a hard time believing this was announced already, has it? if so where can I read/watch up on it. Thanks if anyone knows.

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http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2014/...sses-and-more/

Massively just posted an article in which they asked Yoshi the question about Rog/NIN gear. His answer was "First off, because the class is going to be a melee DPS-type class, that gear that you have for other melee DPS classes and jobs is probably something that you'll want to hold on to."

So it seems like they will be sharing gear with either mnk or drg.

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Originally Posted by Omegakiyohime

So it seems like they will be sharing gear with either mnk or drg.

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Can we just rule out Dragoon, seeing as Monk and Dragoon don't even share gear (ignoring accessories)?

I mean, if Ninja wears the Onion set instead of Fuma, someone at SE is a massive troll.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Just heard from someone on my server that NIN would be sharing gear from DRG/MNK is this true? I'm having a hard time believing this was announced already, has it? if so where can I read/watch up on it. Thanks if anyone knows.

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I bet it would be either DRG, MONK or ... even BARD!!... Depending of how the class -job will be... (If relying in Dex or not...)

Tanks and healers already can share their soldiery gear... The same with casters.. Only ones that can't share a gear with others are Bard, Monk and Dragoon.



BTW... Didn't anyone notice something?.... Roghe/Thief, whatever, the class, appears in the video with its OWN costume... I don't recall any other classes having their own... It seems like if it would be their own AF.. (Like Ninja also appears with one)

It would be a little weird if they'd add just a gear for just a class and just for vanity purposes?... So maybe... There will be some job after all?.. Or maybe classes will have some utiity in 2.4 and their own gears.

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Originally Posted by Omegakiyohime

http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2014/...sses-and-more/

Massively just posted an article in which they asked Yoshi the question about Rog/NIN gear. His answer was "First off, because the class is going to be a melee DPS-type class, that gear that you have for other melee DPS classes and jobs is probably something that you'll want to hold on to."

So it seems like they will be sharing gear with either mnk or drg.

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Tyvm kind sir ^^

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Plenty of people suggest Ranger should come off Archer, when they do people don't claim that "Bard is just Ranger with Songs", or that Archer is already Ranger.

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Actually, almost everyone that facepalms at the idea of implementing RNG as a second job off of ARC, it gets brought up *all the time* that ARC is already RNG. The 2 trademark abilities that RNG has had are Barrage and Aim. ARC explicitly *gets* Barrage and Hawk's Eye is Aim (short duration, increased damage, cannot miss).

Furthermore, those of us that get aggravated about the THF fanbois insisting that THF should be brought into game and/or that it will be brought into game it's basically because you're asking for the developers to waste development resources.

Consider this: the only possible role for THF to fill within the confines of the trinity is DPS (Support isn't a role, it's a subrole; with the hypothetical hybrid role, how does THF get interpreted as either healer *or* tank without stretching the entire theme to the point of incredulity?). NIN is already a DPS and jobs only bring 5 abilities so any other DPS built off of ROG would play just like NIN (because NIN already plays like ROG with a slight modification).

Adding THF to ROG as a second job is basically wasted development resources because it's not *adding* anything to the game: THF would still play *just* like NIN with a few *tiny* differences (you now use Steal to get a job specific resource to fuel special attacks instead of using mudras). The only major difference would be that it's called THF instead of NIN and has a different look (90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job).

As to people thinking that THF would bring "useful" abilities like enmity management or loot acquisition mechanisms, neither of those are going to be brought in because the first is completely and totally worthless (the state of enmity generation currently in game is more than enough; the only thing a "trick shot" style enmity transfer would do is give THF a massively powerful trolling tool) and the second would either make THF required for doing *anything* (if it increases drop rate on rare stuff) or turn said attribute be completely and totally worthless piece of fluff (possibly a small economic advantage; it's not going to be an appreciable economic advantage because you'd be giving a significant economic advantage to a single combat class when the economic advantages are supposed to be DoL/DoH based since that's what they're there for).

To the people that seriously want to see THF brought in as a job, I challenge you (the "THF can will be a job" people) to come up with 5 *useful* abilities that would not be absolutely positively broken while simultaneously explaining how those 5 abilities (and just those 5 abilities; saying that a whole slew of class abilities will be entirely rewritten when you swap to said job is just saying admitting that you can't change the playstyle with just a job) will completely and totally change how a class plays when it converts over to a job (and you cannot simply put together 5 attacks that replace the ones the class gets; the devs are correcting the unintentionally unused abilities so designing a class that *purposefully* renders a large number of abilities from the base class useless is just inane).

"Changing how the class plays" doesn't just mean "I added an attack"; it means making it so that the base class goes from playing like LNC to playing like PUG or from SMN to BLM (e.g. it is a recognizably different *playstyle*). DRG adds the jumps, but it is still fundamentally LNC. WAR adds the Wrath stuff, but it plays *exactly* like MRD 90% of the time. PLD plays exactly like GLA. All of the jobs (with the exception of SCH because it's a completely different role that uses a completely different suite of abilities) are simply a small set of bonus conditional options (or abilities that are used but do not interfere with the existing playstyle). If you honestly think that THF can coexist with NIN as a ROG job, come up with some way for it to coexist rather than co-opt it.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

classes are not for playing beyond level 30, but I see you are trolling so I'll stop entertaining you.

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Oh seriously? I was pretty sure my conjurer, archer and lancer kept learning skills up to level 50, and that Dragoon, Bard and White Mage only gave me 5 extra skills and a couple traits....

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Actually, almost everyone that facepalms at the idea of implementing RNG as a second job off of ARC, it gets brought up *all the time* that ARC is already RNG. The 2 trademark abilities that RNG has had are Barrage and Aim. ARC explicitly *gets* Barrage and Hawk's Eye is Aim (short duration, increased damage, cannot miss).

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You and I must have visited some very different "New Job suggestions" threads... Archer => Ranger is something I've seen almost unanimously agreed upon in such threads.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Consider this: the only possible role for THF to fill within the confines of the trinity is DPS (Support isn't a role, it's a subrole; with the hypothetical hybrid role, how does THF get interpreted as either healer *or* tank without stretching the entire theme to the point of incredulity?). NIN is already a DPS and jobs only bring 5 abilities so any other DPS built off of ROG would play just like NIN (because NIN already plays like ROG with a slight modification).

Adding THF to ROG as a second job is basically wasted development resources because it's not *adding* anything to the game: THF would still play *just* like NIN with a few *tiny* differences (you now use Steal to get a job specific resource to fuel special attacks instead of using mudras). The only major difference would be that it's called THF instead of NIN and has a different look (90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job).

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2 DPS roles coming off 1 Class is hardly the end of the world, and it would be no more a waste of resources than all Jobs are already. Again, Yoshida specifically went about implementing Jobs the moment he took over XIV. Adding the Jobs was his call, he could have just left Classes the same and given them what are now Job abilities (in fact, most of them were regular Class abilities at launch, weren't they?).

No, he specifically set out to add Jobs for the sole reason of adding Jobs, because apparently that matters to Final Fantasy. Thief is a Job, not a Class, because Classes are worthless.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

If you honestly think that THF can coexist with NIN as a ROG job, come up with some way for it to coexist rather than co-opt it.

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Fairly sure I already have, not that such a thing matters until we actually know more about Rouge and Ninjas skill sets.

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Originally Posted by Erudain

Oh seriously? I was pretty sure my conjurer, archer and lancer kept learning skills up to level 50, and that Dragoon, Bard and White Mage only gave me 5 extra skills and a couple traits....

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Oh, you play Lancer at level 50 do you?

Seriously, how dense can people be that they cannot comprehend this simple point? You do not play Lancer at Lv50. You play Dragoon. Yes it has Lancers skills still, but that doesn't mean you're playing Lancer. You specifically equip an item to play Dragoon and 30 and you never unequip it.

Jesus Christ, it's like arguing with a wall...

So it's the point I'm saying, Rogue could be played like a thief, it could have lv1-50 thief skills/trait, ninja could only give him 5 skills but you'd complain because the name plate shows you as "ninja" even if 85% of the skills and playstyle are thief/rogue skills...
Or does a Dragoon/White Mage/Bard playstyle differ a lot from their base class?

That to me means you're attached to the "name" the job has, not the playstyle......hence my previous example, if it plays like a geomancer, it has geomancer skills and traits, but they call it "Elementalist" people would complain because is not called geomancer even if it plays like a geomancer?

Off topic: let's say new player comes and joins the game, fresh start.....could he be a rogue -> ninja from the start? wouldn't that create a story paradox?.... Lady Yugiri doesn't get here until you clear the main story, how could she teach someone in his first 30s class who hasn't even cleared Titan yet?

Good point about the story Erudain.

If you start fresh as Rogue - my guess for it to fit in, would be to start in Yugiri's hometown (new maps! woot!)

Then as the story begins (lvl 1) you will be told to keep your vow your allegiance and anything pertaining to your training - a secret until she deems to reveal to the masse.

And yes - If the color green in one country was named blue in another one on the same day/month/year on this universe - each would be correct.

--> You not only get 5 skills form a job - a little boost into attributes - HP and MP too.

If a specific place one-shot those under 5k HP, and you don't have the gear accessories to make it possible to gain that much HP beyond switching to a job - classes would be worthless..

It's sad really, hope they'll give classes a second wind ;)

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Jesus Christ, it's like arguing with a wall...

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Yep, and you just end up talking in circles with them. Best not to engage people who refused to reason.

Not only that, but apparently all characters will remain at level 50 and there is no possible chance that jobs will get more than just 5 actions...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Actually, almost everyone that facepalms at the idea of implementing RNG as a second job off of ARC, it gets brought up *all the time* that ARC is already RNG. The 2 trademark abilities that RNG has had are Barrage and Aim. ARC explicitly *gets* Barrage and Hawk's Eye is Aim (short duration, increased damage, cannot miss).

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RNG branching from ARC is not a new Idea and has been brough up and agreed on a lot of times. And No, Archer is not Ranger. The same way Paladin is not Gladiator and Warrior is not Marauder. The same way Ninja will not be Rogue and Thief is also not Rogue. Archer don't have to work 100% the same like it did in previous FF Titles and the same goes for THF. Actually Bard has proven, that it can differ a lot from how it plays in comparsion to other titles.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Furthermore, those of us that get aggravated about the THF fanbois insisting that THF should be brought into game and/or that it will be brought into game it's basically because you're asking for the developers to waste development resources.

Consider this: the only possible role for THF to fill within the confines of the trinity is DPS (Support isn't a role, it's a subrole; with the hypothetical hybrid role, how does THF get interpreted as either healer *or* tank without stretching the entire theme to the point of incredulity?). NIN is already a DPS and jobs only bring 5 abilities so any other DPS built off of ROG would play just like NIN (because NIN already plays like ROG with a slight modification).

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We don't know how Rogue and Ninja play, but from what has been said so far, they play different in most aspects. Being Class and Job and using the same Weapon, does not mean they play the same way. THF can still be DPS and also can be "Support". Yea, you are right.. support is not a role.. yet, still can work as one, the same way BRD can work as one, while being a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Adding THF to ROG as a second job is basically wasted development resources because it's not *adding* anything to the game: THF would still play *just* like NIN with a few *tiny* differences (you now use Steal to get a job specific resource to fuel special attacks instead of using mudras). The only major difference would be that it's called THF instead of NIN and has a different look (90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job).

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Same thing again. Look at how SMN and SCH are different from each other, even if you claim: (90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job) So why would that not apply to THF and NIN?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

(90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job)To the people that seriously want to see THF brought in as a job, I challenge you (the "THF can will be a job" people) to come up with 5 *useful* abilities that would not be absolutely positively broken while simultaneously explaining how those 5 abilities (and just those 5 abilities; saying that a whole slew of class abilities will be entirely rewritten when you swap to said job is just saying admitting that you can't change the playstyle with just a job) will completely and totally change how a class plays when it converts over to a job (and you cannot simply put together 5 attacks that replace the ones the class gets; the devs are correcting the unintentionally unused abilities so designing a class that *purposefully* renders a large number of abilities from the base class useless is just inane).

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5 you want?

1) Steal

Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 500

Can steal an Item, which would drop from the Treasure Chest, after defeating it. Chance of Success: 10%

2) Treasure Hunter

Cast Instant, Recast 720, TP Cost 250

Improves the successrate of Steal by 15%, lowers your defense by 15% in exchange.

3) Sneak Attack

Cast Instant, Recast 180, Duration 30 sec

Must be executed from behind, with PT member between you and the Target.

Increases your Atk by 15% if successfull, STR of the PT Member by 5%, lowers your defense by 15% if failed. Successrate: 70%

4) Trick Attack

Cast Instant, Recast 360, Duration 30 sec

Must be executed from flank, with PT member between you and the Target.

lowers your Atk by 15% if successfull, lowers Atk of the PT Member by 5%, increases Steal by 5% and next SA by 30%.

5) Gil Toss

Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 200

Does throw a random number of Gil out of the PT total pool ( max 50k ) at the Enemy and in exchange can incease the Droprate of rare Items. In example Mounts.


Lol.. i made those up in like what? 2 Minutes? The 5 Job Abilities can change the Class and its gameplayA LOT.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

"Changing how the class plays" doesn't just mean "I added an attack"; it means making it so that the base class goes from playing like LNC to playing like PUG or from SMN to BLM (e.g. it is a recognizably different *playstyle*). DRG adds the jumps, but it is still fundamentally LNC. WAR adds the Wrath stuff, but it plays *exactly* like MRD 90% of the time. PLD plays exactly like GLA. All of the jobs (with the exception of SCH because it's a completely different role that uses a completely different suite of abilities) are simply a small set of bonus conditional options (or abilities that are used but do not interfere with the existing playstyle). If you honestly think that THF can coexist with NIN as a ROG job, come up with some way for it to coexist rather than co-opt it.

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It is the way how you choose the Abilities and how the actual Job can make use of the Class Skills. Let's just assume that there will be THF beside NIN, they both don't have to share the same Cross-Class Abilities and also do not have to share the same Base-Stats. They also could be a different role, without being both DPS or both can be DPS, but one can be supporter and the other "Debuffer". IT is quite possible, so i don't see a Problem here.

I am not saying Thief is coming, or should come.. tbh i do not really care, but to say it is impossible is just not true.

Hmm... you know.

What if Rogue already came with steal and sneak attack?

WHERE ARE YOUR GODS NOW?

This is unbelievable...
Little tip, here's how I play my PLD in game.

Activating one oath depending on the situation
Pulling the mob with Shield Lob or Provoke
Buffing my damage with Flight or Fight and starting my Rage Of Halone combo
Every now and them, I use Circle Of Scorn to apply a DoT on several foes
If I have to tank many foes, I use Flash between two or three weapon skills
If I have something to Stun, I quickly use Shield Bash, and if I block an attack, Shield Swipe
If things starts to look bad, either Rampart or Sentinel to mitigate damage, or even Bulwark, so I can Block more
If I have something to silence, a little Spirits Within does the job
And if I'm in dire need of healing, Convalescene helps the healer to keep me healthy
Or I can Cure myself by cross-classing, and pop a Riot Blade combo to refill my MP gauge

Now, what is the purpose of this long yet basic PLD playing guide ?
ONLY TWO OF THE SKILLS I USE CONSTANTLY ARE REALLY FROM PLD !!! And one of them is a "fire and forget" skill...

So don't tell me I'm not playing like a GLA even after lvl30.

Take the green outfit shown in the trailer, mirage that to your all powerful gear, and look away from the NIN icon, and you'll be playing exactly like a Thief

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erudain

Off topic: let's say new player comes and joins the game, fresh start.....could he be a rogue -> ninja from the start? wouldn't that create a story paradox?.... Lady Yugiri doesn't get here until you clear the main story, how could she teach someone in his first 30s class who hasn't even cleared Titan yet?

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Rouge wont be a starting Class, problem solved.

The Guild is only introduced at the end of 2.2 as well, so it's logical they wont allow it to be a starting Class. It's effectively an expansion Class/Job with 2.4 being the expansion; you cannot unlock it until you've entered that content. Other than Musketeer, which would finish Limsas starting trinity, I'd expect all new Classes/Jobs to be like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So don't tell me I'm not playing like a GLA even after lvl30.

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If you're playing Gladiator after Lv30, please do provide some proof that you've... I don't know, cleared all the Coil Turns while on Gladiator without your Paladin Stone equipped.

I've had someone who hadn't bothered to unlock Paladin in a late end dungeon once, it was terrible. Without Shield Oath they couldn't even hold hate, so good luck with that.
(inb4 gets carried off tanking)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Take the green outfit shown in the trailer, mirage that to your all powerful gear, and look away from the NIN icon, and you'll be playing exactly like a Thief

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Thief with hand signs and Ninjitsu, that jumps on the heads of enemies instead of, you know, being a Thief. :rolleyes:

Again, why even bother adding Ninja? Get on Monk, Glamour Fuma gear over your endgame gear, done. Ninja is already in the game ! It's still doing DPS damage, just the animations are different ! Why do you care so much about the animation ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If you're playing Gladiator after Lv30, please do provide some proof that you've... I don't know, cleared all the Coil Turns while on Gladiator without your Paladin Stone equipped.

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So, although I play exactly the same with the same skills, as long as I have the soulstone equipped, the job is totally different ? Are you kidding me ?
It's pretty clear from your comment that you just want a name, and don't even bother on gameplay mechanics.

So I suppose if they gave a job that can steal, flee, hide, Sneak and Trick attack, as long as it's not named "Thief", you'd still complain...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Thief with hand signs and Ninjitsu, that jumps on the heads of enemies instead of, you know, being a Thief.

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Blasphemy for all those THF/NIN back in FFXI, doing hand signs and Ninjutsu !
And yeah, jumping around is totally not Thief https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwLutErMlUI

But please, enlighten me, what is "being a Thief" ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

It's still doing DPS damage, just the animations are different ! Why do you care so much about the animation ?[/I]

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I play MMOs for the animations skills and actions, combined with the beautiful scenery. And making friends through chat and playing together.

Now, a MNK that needs to position himself, that needs to do combos.. vs NIN that Yoshi said won't need to be into a specific place.. Each have their own style, same thing as WAR and PLD are Tanks, or WHM and SCH are healers - different styles of achieving the same results (win) - one will appeal more than the other to some people.

For me, the style of play are bolded.

PLD - WAR
WHM - SCH
SMN - BLM (I love the flares only - my GF show me all these blasts so I'm ok with my future Levi, Ramuh and Shiva Egis :) )
MNK - DRG
BRD - ? (can't compare lol)

*I admit the glamours made me think of NIN on MNK lol perhaps used as a teaser? Can't wait to use these same gear on NIN muhahahaha

I would be very sad if Rogue (not the colour Rouge, hope it's a typo ^^) doesn't start at lvl 1.

I'm all in for new classes/jobs to be unlocked after completing the story, as long as they can start fresh, so we can have a little fun with 3 skills in Sastasha ;)

If Gladiator and Paladin are the exact same thing, I guess you'd be OK with suggestions that they should remove Paladin and its AF/Weapons? I mean, you're hardly using those Skills, you said so yourself.

That is exactly what you're saying with regards to Thief. Why have it when it's the same as Rouge? Well, why have Paladin? Why bother having Paladin except for just the name?

Again, the first thing Yoshida set out to do with XIV was introduce Jobs. Thief is a Job. If we can have Paladin instead of just Gladiator, we should be able to have Thief instead of just Rouge. It's the exact same thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If Gladiator and Paladin are the exact same thing, I guess you'd be OK with suggestions that they should remove Paladin and its AF/Weapons?

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So now, PLD plays differently wether they have a relic or not ?!
Again you're clearly proving that you don't care about mechanics.

What I'm saying is that Rogue will play exactly like Thief, and Ninja, evolving from Rogue will play exactly like it, with additionnal skills from Ninja. And you complain because you can play as more than a Thief even if they give everything the Thief has ? It's not like they remove staple skills from Thief, jobs are additional skills.

The first thing Yoshida did was introducing jobs above what already existed. You should be happy, because considering what Yoshida is doing now, Warrior may have been a class evolving into Paladin, like in FF I.

Still, you haven't told me what you want for a real Thief.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Still, you haven't told me what you want for a real Thief.

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Probably because I don't want Thief, I'm just not rejecting the possibility and telling people to pretend Ninja is Thief. Except in satire, like telling people to pretend Monk is Ninja. Maybe I should add that Samurai shouldn't be added; just give Lancer a Yari polearm type and it already has Invigorate. Why bother adding Samurai, it'll just play the same as other DPS.

But once again, the point goes "WOOOSH", right over your head. I'm done. Not wasting my daily post limit on someone with such a lack of reading comprehension.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Probably because your point is totally hollow and not based whatsoever on gameplay

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More to do with your inability to comprehend that all Jobs are ultimately a meaningless addition of the name, iconic armor, and a few iconic abilities, yet Yoshida still saw fit to implement them anyway. You said it yourself, you only use 2 Paladin skills regularly. The addition of Paladin back in 1.21 was as hollow as the proposed addition of Thief. Somehow you keep missing this point. Not having Thief because it "doesn't add enough" may as well be an argument for removing Jobs completely, then we wouldn't be stuck with a frankly pointless Class system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If people don't bring class in endgame, it's because jobs have everything a class has to offer AND more.

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So they should just remove Jobs and let all the Classes be Jobs in spirit alone.
Gladiator is still Paladin.
Marauder is still Warrior.
Conjurer is still White Mage.
Thaumaturge is still Black Mage.
Archer is now Ranger.
Pugilist is still Monk.
Lancer is still Dragoon.
Arcanist is still Summoner, and we lose Scholar.
Rouge becomes Thief.

Problem solved.

Or, you know, they could just give Rouge a second Job and its "AND more" is just more Thief related than Ninjas "AND more", which is Ninjitsu.

In a game where Bard is only a few songs, and Scholar pulled a fairy literally out of no where, it isn't really impossible that they can give Thief something to make it a Job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nalien

But once again, the point goes "WOOOSH", right over your head. I'm done.

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Probably because your point is totally hollow and not based whatsoever on gameplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Still, you haven't told me what you want for a real Thief.

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You may want to read the thread though. A job stone (And benefits/stats that come with it), the iconic Thief AF and abilities, the associated lore like every other job, I mean, there's been tons. I'm not sure what to tell you if you haven't caught that. :\

EDIT: I suppose instead I should just ask, you DO know all of the differences between classes and jobs right? Like, the pretty significant stat bonuses? The fact that the job quests go past 30? How AF is introduced and ties into previous FF titles? How iconic abilities that FF fans would want are added in as job abilities (Regen, Flare, etc)? I mean, there are a lot. If you've ever wondered why you never see anyone take a class to endgame, there's plenty of reading on the subject.

Iconic THF AF : We saw the exact Thief outfit in the trailer
Thief abilities : Looking at the description, Rogue already has some of these abilities. But I suppose even if Rogue has every abilities of past Thieves, it's not enough.
Lore : Classes have lore too in case you didn't follow the class quests
Job stone is not a gameplay mechanic, and the benefits from the Ninja stone will only enhance the Rogue

If people don't bring class in endgame, it's because jobs have everything a class has to offer AND more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Iconic THF AF : We saw the exact Thief outfit in the trailer
Thief abilities : Looking at the description, Rogue already has some of these abilities. But I suppose even if Rogue has every abilities of past Thieves, it's not enough.
Lore : Classes have lore too in case you didn't follow the class quests
Job stone is not a gameplay mechanic, and the benefits from the Ninja stone will only enhance the Rogue

If people don't bring class in endgame, it's because jobs have everything a class has to offer AND more.

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And.... we're back to square one. The same half baked arguments that people have been explaining this entire thread. So since we've come full circle, now you're supposed to say, "It's just a name difference! No one has explained why they're not OK with a rogue class taking a thief job's place!" I'd argue steal:stats and steal:heart (Which obviously would never be allowed) are gameplay mechanics who actually know what a mechanic is.

Indeed, we're back...because nothing that people asked is denied to them except for the name.

In fact, that's strange...people complain because they want iconic Thief skills although we don't even know what skills the Rogue will have

All this discussion reminds me a South Park chapter...

Cartman's mon: ohh look Toshiba handibook, same hardware and does everything the Ipad does, but half the price...
Cartman: yes, but it's not an Ipad...

So I guess Rogue could be a thief clone, have all it's traditional skills/traits, be played like a thief always was played....then you get a soulstone for ninja (like you know, ninja being an advanced class for thief in lots of FF games), still has all the thief traditional skills/traits, still hold the same thief playstyle....but is not called "thief"....the horror....

If it moves like a duck, acts like a duck, quacks like a duck....then is a duck even if I dress it up like a cat...